PvPing in a PvP game is not griefing. What is wrong with you people?
The only times I've ever felt like I was being "griefed" was in PvE games where jackholes would tag every monster I tried to kill, preventing my from XPing. Without the ability to kill them, there was nothing I could do to keep them from following me around, so my option was basically to quit playing or give them free loot and XP.
The double standards here are interesting...
If someone prevents you to progress in PvE by killing your mobs, he's a griefer. If someone prevents you to do anything in PvP by killing you repeatedly, he's not.
There's no double standard here.
Do you understand the concept of a PvP game?
Does another player beating you in Street Fighter constitute griefing? If an enemy is dominating you in DOTA, is he griefing you?
It's not any different for MMOs with PvP.
Player vs. player conflict is an intended component of PvP games (shocking, I know). You can deal with PvP problems by defeating the enemy player, getting allies to help you, or going somewhere that the enemy player can't follow.
In a PvE game, you can't do anything to stop them. You can't kill them. You can't get other people to kill them. You can't go somewhere they can't follow. You can either put up with the annoyance or quit. You have no other recourse.
While I think flybynight is a griefer of the highest order, I don't see how what he said has anything to do with women in particular, and I'm a woman. More like... he's insulting anyone that doesn't agree with him because he thinks griefing is a good thing.
Good thing the majority of people don't agree with him.
How can you say I'm a griefer of the highest order out the clear blue? What evidence do you have to make that claim? Do you know me? Have we ever played any games together? Have I stated anywhere that I "grief" people? NO.
This is the type of mentality that I don't understand, and why I passed the remark I did. Some other genius called OWPVP games "the armpit" of MMOs and I took exception to that, and said:
Okay, if we're going to be dumb; If OWPVP is the "armpit" of MMOS, the people who make these types of comments are the female orafices of MMOs.
From there I was called "sexist" and accused of treating women wrong, and NOW the coupe de grace I'm magically a griefer who thinks griefing is a good thing. Where the hell did you read all that?
There is a segment of D type personality people on MMORPG.com who continually go around insulting people who play OWPVP games calling us "sociopaths", "sexist", "griefers", and try to correlate in game behavior with life. Every single OWPVP game thread they are there. Then when they receive a justified response they go into the fetal position play the victim and spew more wild accusations trying to amass mobs with pitchforks and torches as they cowardly duck off behind the them.
TL;DR There is absolutely griefing that happens in games and developers should build their games taking the lowest common denominator into consideration at all times. This DOES NOT give license to thin skinned people with victim personality disorder to blanket project their short comings or past trauma on others.
So what am I now after I've said all this? A rapist? Terrorist? Spare me.
Hard to understand?
@Kyleran What are you having difficulty understanding?
Whether you are a griefer, support griefing in games, appear overly concerned about other people's opinions about you, or not or if you like games with open world PVP or not.
You are all over the place. Back on topic, what games, if any do feel support griefing, and what specifically do you consider griefing?
I'm not a griefer by normal OWPVP standards. I don't support griefing by the definition I stated. I like OWPVP games when they're done well. I'm typically not concerned with peoples opinions about me, but I take exception to randomly being called a sexist, accused of mistreating women, or cyber bullying in games.
I think EVE supports griefing as others have stated, and any game that considers scamming or other nefarious behavior that's beyond the coded system, as "emergent" game play.
Hope this provides some clarity.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
I'd say the one way in which EVE supports griefing is it's war mechanics.
EVE was absolutely brilliant in it's security system thing.
High sec = High protection, but less valuable PVE and gathering.
Low sec = Low protection, but more valuable PVE and gathering.
Null sec / WH = No protection, but the most valuable PVE and gathering.
GREAT system. Absolutely top notch. Everyone can enjoy the game in their respectively prefered areas and greater risk = greater reward. Zero complaints from me so far. Love it.
___________
And then comes the war system. Now on the surface this a system set up to allow competing corporations fight each other. But let's get real. All the serious corporations already live in Null Sec. They can fight each other whenever they please.
The War System is used primarily by corporations who sit around and gate camp in high sec constantly to allow them to prey on any corporation that wants to live inside the supposedly safest area of the game peacefully.
This isn't a system generally used by groups with competing interests and ideologies, it's a system used to prey upon those who don't wish to fight, and rendered entirely unnecessary to groups who really just want a good fight by the existence of low-sec/null-sec/WH space.
I know from experience belonging to some larger corporations that it's turned the security system on it's head for anyone in a corp. I found null-sec to be the safest as I was surrounded by allies and enemies were prevented from docking on our bases. Low-sec the second safest as I was surrounded by allies but also neutral stations our enemies would dock on. And high sec the least safe as I was away from allies and faced constant gate camps that would have be broken in lower security space.
In other words, it's a tool primarily used by griefers, at the very best bottom feeders. It's continued support in the EVE community leaves little wonder is to why that game is always considered griefer friendly and decried as toxic and unplayable by most people seeking to avoid PvP.
And that's something I really care about because I know that being positively immersed in PvP through your own choices at your own pace, and being thrust into it by little jerkwads misusing game systems to play virtual bullies is the difference between a player eventually joining the Open World PvP community or QQing all over the forums that that they won't ever play any game with Open World PvP. Griefers are the bane of serious PvPers whether we realize it or not because even though most of them are easily killable trash to a true PvPer, they are the ones killing our games while we sit back and ignore them.
PvPing in a PvP game is not griefing. What is wrong with you people?
The only times I've ever felt like I was being "griefed" was in PvE games where jackholes would tag every monster I tried to kill, preventing my from XPing. Without the ability to kill them, there was nothing I could do to keep them from following me around, so my option was basically to quit playing or give them free loot and XP.
The double standards here are interesting...
If someone prevents you to progress in PvE by killing your mobs, he's a griefer. If someone prevents you to do anything in PvP by killing you repeatedly, he's not.
There's no double standard here.
Do you understand the concept of a PvP game?
Does another player beating you in Street Fighter constitute griefing? If an enemy is dominating you in DOTA, is he griefing you?
It's not any different for MMOs with PvP.
Player vs. player conflict is an intended component of PvP games (shocking, I know). You can deal with PvP problems by defeating the enemy player, getting allies to help you, or going somewhere that the enemy player can't follow.
In a PvE game, you can't do anything to stop them. You can't kill them. You can't get other people to kill them. You can't go somewhere they can't follow. You can either put up with the annoyance or quit. You have no other recourse.
Not only you have double standards, but you are unable to admit it. Typical.
In both cases, someone is intentionally, by repetitive action, preventing another player from progressing, with no chance from the second player to retaliate. So either both cases are griefing, or both cases are not. There's no ifs, no buts.
And don't come to me with your "Do you understand the concept of a PvP game", because the concept of a PvE game is to kill mobs. If one kills faster than you, it sucks for you, and maybe you need to grow a bigger pair?
See what I did here?
So you don't understand the concept of a PvP game. That's all you really needed to say.
Player conflict is an intended interaction between players in a PvP game. Intended interactions are explicitly not griefing. What you're describing is losing. They're not the same thing.
A player who only tags mobs that you're just about to aggro for the sole purpose of preventing you from playing the game is in no way similar. They are using a mechanic in an unintended way for the explicit purpose of causing irritation.
Example: You are casting a long animation spell to pull a mob. As it reaches completion an archer tags the mob you're pulling to gain ownership of it, but your spell does more damage and it aggros on you. You now have to either kill the mob for them while they stand there laughing or run away to drop aggro. This is done over and over to prevent you from playing the game.
PvPing in a PvP game is not griefing. What is wrong with you people?
The only times I've ever felt like I was being "griefed" was in PvE games where jackholes would tag every monster I tried to kill, preventing my from XPing. Without the ability to kill them, there was nothing I could do to keep them from following me around, so my option was basically to quit playing or give them free loot and XP.
The double standards here are interesting...
If someone prevents you to progress in PvE by killing your mobs, he's a griefer. If someone prevents you to do anything in PvP by killing you repeatedly, he's not.
There's no double standard here.
Do you understand the concept of a PvP game?
Does another player beating you in Street Fighter constitute griefing? If an enemy is dominating you in DOTA, is he griefing you?
It's not any different for MMOs with PvP.
Player vs. player conflict is an intended component of PvP games (shocking, I know). You can deal with PvP problems by defeating the enemy player, getting allies to help you, or going somewhere that the enemy player can't follow.
In a PvE game, you can't do anything to stop them. You can't kill them. You can't get other people to kill them. You can't go somewhere they can't follow. You can either put up with the annoyance or quit. You have no other recourse.
Not only you have double standards, but you are unable to admit it. Typical.
In both cases, someone is intentionally, by repetitive action, preventing another player from progressing, with no chance from the second player to retaliate. So either both cases are griefing, or both cases are not. There's no ifs, no buts.
And don't come to me with your "Do you understand the concept of a PvP game", because the concept of a PvE game is to kill mobs. If one kills faster than you, it sucks for you, and maybe you need to grow a bigger pair?
See what I did here?
So you don't understand the concept of a PvP game. That's all you really needed to say.
Player conflict is an intended interaction between players in a PvP game. Intended interactions are explicitly not griefing. What you're describing is losing. They're not the same thing.
A player who only tags mobs that you're just about to aggro for the sole purpose of preventing you from playing the game is in no way similar. They are using a mechanic in an unintended way for the explicit purpose of causing irritation.
Example: You are casting a long animation spell to pull a mob. As it reaches completion an archer tags the mob you're pulling to gain ownership of it, but your spell does more damage and it aggros on you. You now have to either kill the mob for them while they stand there laughing or run away to drop aggro. This is done over and over to prevent you from playing the game.
Player conflict is an intended interaction--that is completely right. But it's not in black and white. Winning and losing also not in black and white. There's also concepts like playing dirty or fair play and a lot more in between. Not sure why you insist to see this in binary.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
PvPing in a PvP game is not griefing. What is wrong with you people?
The only times I've ever felt like I was being "griefed" was in PvE games where jackholes would tag every monster I tried to kill, preventing my from XPing. Without the ability to kill them, there was nothing I could do to keep them from following me around, so my option was basically to quit playing or give them free loot and XP.
The double standards here are interesting...
If someone prevents you to progress in PvE by killing your mobs, he's a griefer. If someone prevents you to do anything in PvP by killing you repeatedly, he's not.
There's no double standard here.
Do you understand the concept of a PvP game?
Does another player beating you in Street Fighter constitute griefing? If an enemy is dominating you in DOTA, is he griefing you?
It's not any different for MMOs with PvP.
Player vs. player conflict is an intended component of PvP games (shocking, I know). You can deal with PvP problems by defeating the enemy player, getting allies to help you, or going somewhere that the enemy player can't follow.
In a PvE game, you can't do anything to stop them. You can't kill them. You can't get other people to kill them. You can't go somewhere they can't follow. You can either put up with the annoyance or quit. You have no other recourse.
Not only you have double standards, but you are unable to admit it. Typical.
In both cases, someone is intentionally, by repetitive action, preventing another player from progressing, with no chance from the second player to retaliate. So either both cases are griefing, or both cases are not. There's no ifs, no buts.
And don't come to me with your "Do you understand the concept of a PvP game", because the concept of a PvE game is to kill mobs. If one kills faster than you, it sucks for you, and maybe you need to grow a bigger pair?
See what I did here?
So you don't understand the concept of a PvP game. That's all you really needed to say.
Player conflict is an intended interaction between players in a PvP game. Intended interactions are explicitly not griefing. What you're describing is losing. They're not the same thing.
A player who only tags mobs that you're just about to aggro for the sole purpose of preventing you from playing the game is in no way similar. They are using a mechanic in an unintended way for the explicit purpose of causing irritation.
Example: You are casting a long animation spell to pull a mob. As it reaches completion an archer tags the mob you're pulling to gain ownership of it, but your spell does more damage and it aggros on you. You now have to either kill the mob for them while they stand there laughing or run away to drop aggro. This is done over and over to prevent you from playing the game.
No, you simply don't understand the term grieving. I'm going to try and explain it in such a simple manner that perhaps you might learn something.
Grieving is one party (player, group, guild, whatever) ABUSING a games systems in such a way that they are able to create a playing field so uneven that the other party has no way to escape, ask for help, retaliate or actually play the game, therefor rendering said game useless to him or her.
You talk about intended interaction but that is not what is going on with grieving, why is that so hard to understand? THAT is the difference between PVPing and grieving, intention and interaction..
I can not believe that people keep arguing this, it really isn't hard to grasp.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I can not believe that people keep arguing this, it really isn't hard to grasp.
It indeed isn't hard to grasp, yet you are failing at it.
Like your paragraph about uneven playing field - where is the intention to grief there? Just because you have an advantage means you are doing it to grief? How much more silly your argument may get?
The idea that PVP should be fair, you should be able to fight back or w/e are purely your injections.
I can not believe that people keep arguing this, it really isn't hard to grasp.
It indeed isn't hard to grasp, yet you are failing at it.
Like your paragraph about uneven playing field - where is the intention to grief there? Just because you have an advantage means you are doing it to grief? How much more silly your argument may get?
The idea that PVP should be fair, you should be able to fight back or w/e are purely your injections.
Sigh.... Learn to read, I don't talk about an uneven playing field, I am talking about a playing field SO uneven (created through abusing systems) the other party is rendered incapable of doing anything, including actually playing the game. But whatever, you don't want to understand or actually read, you just want to LOL away your lack of understanding making me realise arguing with you is useless, it doesn't make you right though. Have fun being 'right.'
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
lahnmir said: I don't talk about an uneven playing field, I am talking about a playing field SO uneven (created through abusing systems) the other party is rendered incapable of doing anything, including actually playing the game.
Irrelevant how much uneven it is. Irrelevant what method is being used. Irrelevant whether other party is incapable of doing anything.
Neither of that speaks about intention to grief.
I do read and do understand what you are saying, that is why I am telling you where you are wrong and why.
I can not believe that people keep arguing this, it really isn't hard to grasp.
It indeed isn't hard to grasp, yet you are failing at it.
Like your paragraph about uneven playing field - where is the intention to grief there? Just because you have an advantage means you are doing it to grief? How much more silly your argument may get?
The idea that PVP should be fair, you should be able to fight back or w/e are purely your injections.
Sigh.... Learn to read, I don't talk about an uneven playing field, I am talking about a playing field SO uneven (created through abusing systems) the other party is rendered incapable of doing anything, including actually playing the game. But whatever, you don't want to understand or actually read, you just want to LOL away your lack of understanding making me realise arguing with you is useless, it doesn't make you right though. Have fun being 'right.'
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Abusing how? Personally, spawn camping isn't abusing the system. Hunting low leveled defenceless players isn't abusing the system.
People have already stated how easy developers can implement systems that can nullify that style of play.
Maybe what the developers are hoping for is the co-operation of the good guys within the game to police the griefers.
Actually make it feel like player actions within a game mean something within the community.
Grieving is one party (player, group, guild, whatever) ABUSING a games systems in such a way that they are able to create a playing field so uneven that the other party has no way to escape, ask for help, retaliate or actually play the game, therefor rendering said game useless to him or her.
How can a griefer render another players chat window useless they can't ask for help without hacking of some sort?
if you want to talk about a old school MMO that promoted griefing "T4C" back in the day you could sit outside the church and PK people every time they would step out just because you didn't like the person.
This is what I understand after 9 pages of contradictory posts by some people...
We have Griefing Deniers, who are getting more heat than holocaust deniers in this thread. They believe killing other defenseless players isn't griefing but part of winning and losing in PvP. Well yeah, if there is a reward or challenge in anyway then you're right. If there isn't, and there are other PvP activities in-game that do reward you and are also challenging, then why do you do this? Why in a rich PvP game you chose to skip all other hard activities and settled for camping a newbie? Well maybe you should grow a pair and man the fuck up and go do some challenging PvP instead, eh? You choose the easy way then call others to stop whining whilst whining on how unfair it is for you for being called a griefer? Hypocrisy much? And to be honest, by doing all that griefing, we got our own Wikipedia page, why do you deny it? Be proud!!
Then we have the people who say yeah griefing happens, not the end of the world, call for friends, ask for help in local chat, get over it. Yeah, I'm down with that. No one around to help ya? Change zones, play with an alt for a while. Whenever I corpse camped someone I didn't wait more than 5 mins for them to come back. It's not like I was stalking an ex-girlfriend or something.
Some of the nice lads here mentioned they want to enjoy playing the game, and not get interrupted by some jackass on speed (yours truly). Well, you can't keep everything to your own liking in an MMO. Even in a PvE only game, I can imagine hundreds of ways for others to ruin your gaming experience. Griefing is actually one of the nicer features. So when you log into a virtual world, you become vulnerable to the presence of others. Maybe you haven't ever griefed, but I am sure, you have annoyed the hell out of some people over your fine career of gaming anyways, you had to, you're only human.
You can't know shit about a griefer's real life personality just because they are griefing you. It doesn't mean anything. I know we all like to play a psychiatrist from time to time, we've all seen the shows, we know the words. But no--you're dead wrong if you make any judgment based on that. I know it makes the victims feel better going "Oh Sebastian, the gentleman must have had a terrible childhood which has evolved into a horrible case of schizophrenia, that's why he killed me in Timeless Isle 6 times in a row!" But the truth is far from that, and to be honest, those types of prejudice says more about you than the griefer.
Guess I made both sides pissed now :P My work is done then... à tout à l'heure!
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Personally I do believe being a griefer generally does say something about someone's personality. Griefing = The act of intentionally trying to make someone else suffer because you derive enjoyment from their suffering. It may be pixelated avatars doing the actions but griefing is specifically targeting the person behind the screen so there is one thing I am 100% confident in saying about all griefers. You enjoy causing suffering in random strangers. I won't break it down any further than that because I'm not a psychologist but that does definitely say things about you.
Now as I've already admitted in this topic, I enjoy griefing griefers. And yes their suffering brings me pleasure. I view it as a kind of righteous vengeance and I gain no pleasure whatsoever from hurting people who I have no reason to, but yeah that says something about me too. Short the "I will become this world's god!" part, I'll fully admit I'm the type of person who would become a Light Yagami given the power. Again, I'll leave a psychologist to analyze what all that means about me.
Point is though, there is no disconnect between how you treat people in games and who you are. If anything, what you do behind the anonymity of the internet is an even deeper glimpse into your true self than the parts of you that you show to you show to those you meet in person.
I'd say the one way in which EVE supports griefing is it's war mechanics.
EVE was absolutely brilliant in it's security system thing.
High sec = High protection, but less valuable PVE and gathering.
Low sec = Low protection, but more valuable PVE and gathering.
Null sec / WH = No protection, but the most valuable PVE and gathering.
GREAT system. Absolutely top notch. Everyone can enjoy the game in their respectively prefered areas and greater risk = greater reward. Zero complaints from me so far. Love it.
___________
And then comes the war system. Now on the surface this a system set up to allow competing corporations fight each other. But let's get real. All the serious corporations already live in Null Sec. They can fight each other whenever they please.
The War System is used primarily by corporations who sit around and gate camp in high sec constantly to allow them to prey on any corporation that wants to live inside the supposedly safest area of the game peacefully.
This isn't a system generally used by groups with competing interests and ideologies, it's a system used to prey upon those who don't wish to fight, and rendered entirely unnecessary to groups who really just want a good fight by the existence of low-sec/null-sec/WH space.
I know from experience belonging to some larger corporations that it's turned the security system on it's head for anyone in a corp. I found null-sec to be the safest as I was surrounded by allies and enemies were prevented from docking on our bases. Low-sec the second safest as I was surrounded by allies but also neutral stations our enemies would dock on. And high sec the least safe as I was away from allies and faced constant gate camps that would have be broken in lower security space.
In other words, it's a tool primarily used by griefers, at the very best bottom feeders. It's continued support in the EVE community leaves little wonder is to why that game is always considered griefer friendly and decried as toxic and unplayable by most people seeking to avoid PvP.
And that's something I really care about because I know that being positively immersed in PvP through your own choices at your own pace, and being thrust into it by little jerkwads misusing game systems to play virtual bullies is the difference between a player eventually joining the Open World PvP community or QQing all over the forums that that they won't ever play any game with Open World PvP. Griefers are the bane of serious PvPers whether we realize it or not because even though most of them are easily killable trash to a true PvPer, they are the ones killing our games while we sit back and ignore them.
I agree EVEs wardec system is broken and used for the most part by cowards, it is completely avoidable if one does not join a player corporation.
The players themselves also don't react properly IMO, I couldn't count the number of haulers I've seen killed as players in null sec corps try to take goods into Jita or other hubs solo while under a war dec.
They should be flying in fleet convoy, but rare is the day a corp escorts its ships into high sec.
Rather most of us fly cargo into the fringes of empire space and then use unaffiliated hauler accounts to go the rest of the way.
While annoying as the mechanic is, I don't consider it griefing, these players aren't doing it for luls, they are trying to get kills and loot for the most part.
Now Code's suicide ganking of miners might be close to griefing, but even there miners have many options to avoid being killed, so again not really griefing as I see it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
ConstantineMerus said: If there isn't, and there are other PvP activities in-game that do reward you and are also challenging, then why do you do this?
Because you can.
There is no other reason needed, afterall that is an underlaying concept behind open world (FFA) pvp - you can engage anyone, anywhere.
ConstantineMerus said: If there isn't, and there are other PvP activities in-game that do reward you and are also challenging, then why do you do this?
Because you can.
There is no other reason needed, afterall that is an underlaying concept behind open world (FFA) pvp - you can engage anyone, anywhere.
And this is the way this genre is so unpopular and shitty. Good for them.
There is no other reason needed, afterall that is an underlaying concept behind open world (FFA) pvp - you can engage anyone, anywhere.
"Because I can" is not a true motivation. Everyone does everything they do for a reason, whether they even understand their own reasoning or not. In griefing, the motivation is very important as it's what divides griefers from non-griefers.
Griefers do things because they want other players to suffer for whatever reason (empowerment, sadism, whatever.) When players take an action that has no apparent motivation other than sadism and then justify their action with "because I can" that seems to be a clear indicator to me they are griefer. And later when I'm spawn camping that individual and they ask why I'll be sure to let them know the reason is "because I can".
There is no other reason needed, afterall that is an underlaying concept behind open world (FFA) pvp - you can engage anyone, anywhere.
"Because I can" is not a true motivation. Everyone does everything they do for a reason, whether they even understand their own reasoning or not. In griefing, the motivation is very important as it's what divides griefers from non-griefers.
Griefers do things because they want other players to suffer for whatever reason (empowerment, sadism, whatever.) When players take an action that has no apparent motivation other than sadism and then justify their action with "because I can" that seems to be a clear indicator to me they are griefer. And later when I'm spawn camping that individual and they ask why I'll be sure to let them know the reason is "because I can".
No no no, it is just called 'playing the game.' So I propose to drop terms like PVPing and grieving and just go with A$$holing, where you act like the biggest douche ever because you can and the game allows it. You don't need reasons to be A$$holing besides the fact that you are indeed an A$$hole for doing so, no justification needed, just some social consequences.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I can not believe that people keep arguing this, it really isn't hard to grasp.
It indeed isn't hard to grasp, yet you are failing at it.
Like your paragraph about uneven playing field - where is the intention to grief there? Just because you have an advantage means you are doing it to grief? How much more silly your argument may get?
The idea that PVP should be fair, you should be able to fight back or w/e are purely your injections.
Sigh.... Learn to read, I don't talk about an uneven playing field, I am talking about a playing field SO uneven (created through abusing systems) the other party is rendered incapable of doing anything, including actually playing the game. But whatever, you don't want to understand or actually read, you just want to LOL away your lack of understanding making me realise arguing with you is useless, it doesn't make you right though. Have fun being 'right.'
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Abusing how? Personally, spawn camping isn't abusing the system. Hunting low leveled defenceless players isn't abusing the system.
People have already stated how easy developers can implement systems that can nullify that style of play.
Maybe what the developers are hoping for is the co-operation of the good guys within the game to police the griefers.
Actually make it feel like player actions within a game mean something within the community.
Grieving is one party (player, group, guild, whatever) ABUSING a games systems in such a way that they are able to create a playing field so uneven that the other party has no way to escape, ask for help, retaliate or actually play the game, therefor rendering said game useless to him or her.
How can a griefer render another players chat window useless they can't ask for help without hacking of some sort?
They do discourage it by removing all rewards for attacking players so much weaker that they're essentially defenseless.
A player taking his high-level toon to a low level zone is, at the very least, admitting how uninterested he is in playing anything challenging. As a result, he gets no respect from others. There's nothing hard about that, and no amount of whining about how "game systems" don't literally prevent the action from Gdemami or anyone in the thread will change that. So, they can either get used to it, or they can continue to attempt to whine about people making judgements based upon one's actions. It makes no difference, in the end, to the rest of us how butthurt the griefer gets about the rest of us criticizing him.
I can not believe that people keep arguing this, it really isn't hard to grasp.
It indeed isn't hard to grasp, yet you are failing at it.
Like your paragraph about uneven playing field - where is the intention to grief there? Just because you have an advantage means you are doing it to grief? How much more silly your argument may get?
The idea that PVP should be fair, you should be able to fight back or w/e are purely your injections.
Sigh.... Learn to read, I don't talk about an uneven playing field, I am talking about a playing field SO uneven (created through abusing systems) the other party is rendered incapable of doing anything, including actually playing the game. But whatever, you don't want to understand or actually read, you just want to LOL away your lack of understanding making me realise arguing with you is useless, it doesn't make you right though. Have fun being 'right.'
/Cheers, Lahnmir
Abusing how? Personally, spawn camping isn't abusing the system. Hunting low leveled defenceless players isn't abusing the system.
People have already stated how easy developers can implement systems that can nullify that style of play.
Maybe what the developers are hoping for is the co-operation of the good guys within the game to police the griefers.
Actually make it feel like player actions within a game mean something within the community.
Grieving is one party (player, group, guild, whatever) ABUSING a games systems in such a way that they are able to create a playing field so uneven that the other party has no way to escape, ask for help, retaliate or actually play the game, therefor rendering said game useless to him or her.
How can a griefer render another players chat window useless they can't ask for help without hacking of some sort?
They do discourage it by removing all rewards for attacking players so much weaker that they're essentially defenseless.
A player taking his high-level toon to a low level zone is, at the very least, admitting how uninterested he is in playing anything challenging. As a result, he gets no respect from others. There's nothing hard about that, and no amount of whining about how "game systems" don't literally prevent the action from Gdemami or anyone in the thread will change that. So, they can either get used to it, or they can continue to attempt to whine about people making judgements based upon one's actions. It makes no difference, in the end, to the rest of us how butthurt the griefer gets about the rest of us criticizing him.
I stick by my assertion that most of the people here promoting griefing do not actually PvP. Anyone that does would realize that griefing does happen, and it does suck.
However, having said that there are viable ways (all have been mentioned at some point in this thread) to prevent it albeit not the most enjoyable solutions.
I also do not associate how a person acts online as to how they would act irl. For various reasons.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
ConstantineMerus said: If there isn't, and there are other PvP activities in-game that do reward you and are also challenging, then why do you do this?
Because you can.
There is no other reason needed, afterall that is an underlaying concept behind open world (FFA) pvp - you can engage anyone, anywhere.
You can also set your toon on auto-run and leave it running to a wall for days after days. No one said you couldn't. But if you do, we won't be labeling as "well that lad is really into exploration part of PvE, eh?" The underlying motive would be explored.
I said I killed newbies over and over because I liked to annoy them. What's your reason for such action? Because you can? Why don't you do the auto-run thingie into the wall too, you can do that as well. What is your motive for doing the first but not the latter?
PS. "Because you can." come on mate, I don't think you consider me that kind of an idiot which that line would work on me. You're better than that as well. Put some effort into it. Use them muscles!
Post edited by ConstantineMerus on
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
ConstantineMerus said: If there isn't, and there are other PvP activities in-game that do reward you and are also challenging, then why do you do this?
Because you can.
There is no other reason needed, afterall that is an underlaying concept behind open world (FFA) pvp - you can engage anyone, anywhere.
You can also set your toon on auto-run and leave it running to a wall for days after days. No one said you couldn't. But if you do, we won't be labeling as "well that lad is really exploration part of PvE, eh?" The underlying motive would be explored.
I said I killed newbies over and over because I liked to annoy them. What's your reason for such action? Because you can? Why don't you do the auto-run thingie into the wall too, you can do that as well. What is your motive for doing the first but not the latter?
PS. "Because you can." come on mate, I don't think you consider me that kind of an idiot which that line would work on me. You're better than that as well. Put some effort into it. Use them muscles!
He uses those muscles to surpress the weak, not to think
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
You are trying to find particular motives and purposes where there are actually none. You feel like to engage the guy in your sight? Go ahead...all just because you can, no conditions, no goals, no purpose.
Most MMOs have their PVP somehow structured - particular zone, flags, instances, objectives w/e, this is not the case tho, provided environment is non-consensual PVP.
You engage people because you can engage them, no particular reason or motive is required.
You are trying to find particular motives and purposes where there are actually none. You feel like to engage the guy in your sight? Go ahead...all just because you can, no conditions, no goals, no purpose.
Most MMOs have their PVP somehow structured - particular zone, flags, instances, objectives w/e, this is not the case tho, provided environment is non-consensual PVP.
You engage people because you can engage them, no particular reason or motive is required.
Comments
There's no double standard here.
Do you understand the concept of a PvP game?
Does another player beating you in Street Fighter constitute griefing? If an enemy is dominating you in DOTA, is he griefing you?
It's not any different for MMOs with PvP.
Player vs. player conflict is an intended component of PvP games (shocking, I know). You can deal with PvP problems by defeating the enemy player, getting allies to help you, or going somewhere that the enemy player can't follow.
In a PvE game, you can't do anything to stop them. You can't kill them. You can't get other people to kill them. You can't go somewhere they can't follow. You can either put up with the annoyance or quit. You have no other recourse.
Griefing is something malicious, nefarious, biased, and unforgivingly persistent.
Read more at http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/467763/which-mmo-most-promoted-griefing/p4#Bk4WKSdqB7Xkl7cc.99
You read and agreed with the above already.
I'm not a griefer by normal OWPVP standards. I don't support griefing by the definition I stated. I like OWPVP games when they're done well. I'm typically not concerned with peoples opinions about me, but I take exception to randomly being called a sexist, accused of mistreating women, or cyber bullying in games.
I think EVE supports griefing as others have stated, and any game that considers scamming or other nefarious behavior that's beyond the coded system, as "emergent" game play.
Hope this provides some clarity.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
EVE was absolutely brilliant in it's security system thing.
High sec = High protection, but less valuable PVE and gathering.
Low sec = Low protection, but more valuable PVE and gathering.
Null sec / WH = No protection, but the most valuable PVE and gathering.
GREAT system. Absolutely top notch. Everyone can enjoy the game in their respectively prefered areas and greater risk = greater reward. Zero complaints from me so far. Love it.
___________
And then comes the war system. Now on the surface this a system set up to allow competing corporations fight each other. But let's get real. All the serious corporations already live in Null Sec. They can fight each other whenever they please.
The War System is used primarily by corporations who sit around and gate camp in high sec constantly to allow them to prey on any corporation that wants to live inside the supposedly safest area of the game peacefully.
This isn't a system generally used by groups with competing interests and ideologies, it's a system used to prey upon those who don't wish to fight, and rendered entirely unnecessary to groups who really just want a good fight by the existence of low-sec/null-sec/WH space.
I know from experience belonging to some larger corporations that it's turned the security system on it's head for anyone in a corp. I found null-sec to be the safest as I was surrounded by allies and enemies were prevented from docking on our bases. Low-sec the second safest as I was surrounded by allies but also neutral stations our enemies would dock on. And high sec the least safe as I was away from allies and faced constant gate camps that would have be broken in lower security space.
In other words, it's a tool primarily used by griefers, at the very best bottom feeders. It's continued support in the EVE community leaves little wonder is to why that game is always considered griefer friendly and decried as toxic and unplayable by most people seeking to avoid PvP.
And that's something I really care about because I know that being positively immersed in PvP through your own choices at your own pace, and being thrust into it by little jerkwads misusing game systems to play virtual bullies is the difference between a player eventually joining the Open World PvP community or QQing all over the forums that that they won't ever play any game with Open World PvP. Griefers are the bane of serious PvPers whether we realize it or not because even though most of them are easily killable trash to a true PvPer, they are the ones killing our games while we sit back and ignore them.
Player conflict is an intended interaction between players in a PvP game. Intended interactions are explicitly not griefing. What you're describing is losing. They're not the same thing.
A player who only tags mobs that you're just about to aggro for the sole purpose of preventing you from playing the game is in no way similar. They are using a mechanic in an unintended way for the explicit purpose of causing irritation.
Example: You are casting a long animation spell to pull a mob. As it reaches completion an archer tags the mob you're pulling to gain ownership of it, but your spell does more damage and it aggros on you. You now have to either kill the mob for them while they stand there laughing or run away to drop aggro. This is done over and over to prevent you from playing the game.
Grieving is one party (player, group, guild, whatever) ABUSING a games systems in such a way that they are able to create a playing field so uneven that the other party has no way to escape, ask for help, retaliate or actually play the game, therefor rendering said game useless to him or her.
You talk about intended interaction but that is not what is going on with grieving, why is that so hard to understand? THAT is the difference between PVPing and grieving, intention and interaction..
I can not believe that people keep arguing this, it really isn't hard to grasp.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Like your paragraph about uneven playing field - where is the intention to grief there? Just because you have an advantage means you are doing it to grief? How much more silly your argument may get?
The idea that PVP should be fair, you should be able to fight back or w/e are purely your injections.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Irrelevant what method is being used.
Irrelevant whether other party is incapable of doing anything.
Neither of that speaks about intention to grief.
I do read and do understand what you are saying, that is why I am telling you where you are wrong and why.
People have already stated how easy developers can implement systems that can nullify that style of play.
Maybe what the developers are hoping for is the co-operation of the good guys within the game to police the griefers.
Actually make it feel like player actions within a game mean something within the community.
How can a griefer render another players chat window useless they can't ask for help without hacking of some sort?
Never Forget
http://imgur.com/a/zyFPi
- We have Griefing Deniers, who are getting more heat than holocaust deniers in this thread. They believe killing other defenseless players isn't griefing but part of winning and losing in PvP. Well yeah, if there is a reward or challenge in anyway then you're right. If there isn't, and there are other PvP activities in-game that do reward you and are also challenging, then why do you do this? Why in a rich PvP game you chose to skip all other hard activities and settled for camping a newbie? Well maybe you should grow a pair and man the fuck up and go do some challenging PvP instead, eh? You choose the easy way then call others to stop whining whilst whining on how unfair it is for you for being called a griefer? Hypocrisy much? And to be honest, by doing all that griefing, we got our own Wikipedia page, why do you deny it? Be proud!!
- Then we have the people who say yeah griefing happens, not the end of the world, call for friends, ask for help in local chat, get over it. Yeah, I'm down with that. No one around to help ya? Change zones, play with an alt for a while. Whenever I corpse camped someone I didn't wait more than 5 mins for them to come back. It's not like I was stalking an ex-girlfriend or something.
- Some of the nice lads here mentioned they want to enjoy playing the game, and not get interrupted by some jackass on speed (yours truly). Well, you can't keep everything to your own liking in an MMO. Even in a PvE only game, I can imagine hundreds of ways for others to ruin your gaming experience. Griefing is actually one of the nicer features. So when you log into a virtual world, you become vulnerable to the presence of others. Maybe you haven't ever griefed, but I am sure, you have annoyed the hell out of some people over your fine career of gaming anyways, you had to, you're only human.
- You can't know shit about a griefer's real life personality just because they are griefing you. It doesn't mean anything. I know we all like to play a psychiatrist from time to time, we've all seen the shows, we know the words. But no--you're dead wrong if you make any judgment based on that. I know it makes the victims feel better going "Oh Sebastian, the gentleman must have had a terrible childhood which has evolved into a horrible case of schizophrenia, that's why he killed me in Timeless Isle 6 times in a row!" But the truth is far from that, and to be honest, those types of prejudice says more about you than the griefer.
Guess I made both sides pissed now :P My work is done then... à tout à l'heure!Now as I've already admitted in this topic, I enjoy griefing griefers. And yes their suffering brings me pleasure. I view it as a kind of righteous vengeance and I gain no pleasure whatsoever from hurting people who I have no reason to, but yeah that says something about me too. Short the "I will become this world's god!" part, I'll fully admit I'm the type of person who would become a Light Yagami given the power. Again, I'll leave a psychologist to analyze what all that means about me.
Point is though, there is no disconnect between how you treat people in games and who you are. If anything, what you do behind the anonymity of the internet is an even deeper glimpse into your true self than the parts of you that you show to you show to those you meet in person.
The players themselves also don't react properly IMO, I couldn't count the number of haulers I've seen killed as players in null sec corps try to take goods into Jita or other hubs solo while under a war dec.
They should be flying in fleet convoy, but rare is the day a corp escorts its ships into high sec.
Rather most of us fly cargo into the fringes of empire space and then use unaffiliated hauler accounts to go the rest of the way.
While annoying as the mechanic is, I don't consider it griefing, these players aren't doing it for luls, they are trying to get kills and loot for the most part.
Now Code's suicide ganking of miners might be close to griefing, but even there miners have many options to avoid being killed, so again not really griefing as I see it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There is no other reason needed, afterall that is an underlaying concept behind open world (FFA) pvp - you can engage anyone, anywhere.
Griefers do things because they want other players to suffer for whatever reason (empowerment, sadism, whatever.) When players take an action that has no apparent motivation other than sadism and then justify their action with "because I can" that seems to be a clear indicator to me they are griefer. And later when I'm spawn camping that individual and they ask why I'll be sure to let them know the reason is "because I can".
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
A player taking his high-level toon to a low level zone is, at the very least, admitting how uninterested he is in playing anything challenging. As a result, he gets no respect from others. There's nothing hard about that, and no amount of whining about how "game systems" don't literally prevent the action from Gdemami or anyone in the thread will change that. So, they can either get used to it, or they can continue to attempt to whine about people making judgements based upon one's actions. It makes no difference, in the end, to the rest of us how butthurt the griefer gets about the rest of us criticizing him.
However, having said that there are viable ways (all have been mentioned at some point in this thread) to prevent it albeit not the most enjoyable solutions.
I also do not associate how a person acts online as to how they would act irl. For various reasons.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I said I killed newbies over and over because I liked to annoy them. What's your reason for such action? Because you can? Why don't you do the auto-run thingie into the wall too, you can do that as well. What is your motive for doing the first but not the latter?
PS. "Because you can." come on mate, I don't think you consider me that kind of an idiot which that line would work on me. You're better than that as well. Put some effort into it. Use them muscles!
He uses those muscles to surpress the weak, not to think
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
You are trying to find particular motives and purposes where there are actually none. You feel like to engage the guy in your sight? Go ahead...all just because you can, no conditions, no goals, no purpose.
Most MMOs have their PVP somehow structured - particular zone, flags, instances, objectives w/e, this is not the case tho, provided environment is non-consensual PVP.
You engage people because you can engage them, no particular reason or motive is required.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wicked-deeds/201401/how-tell-sociopath-psychopath
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee