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Do you think World of Warcraft changed everything ?

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
edited September 2017 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
It's no secret that mmos have changed several times over in the past 20 years.  Some say it evolved in a good way, some don't like it.


I would like to single out a specific point in history:

November 13 2008, this is when Blizzard released Wrath of the Lich King expansion.

Boom !.... Something happened !.... All of a sudden the game was easy.
Boom !.... Something else happened !.... Dungeon finder (LFD) was invented, forever changing the community.

- Before this time, difficulty was never spoken.  In my opinion harder was never an issue to anyone, but that's my opinion.  Easy game play changed almost over night as we were sleeping in our beds.  The REAL REASION, to sell expansion's. To get players to Lich King Fast. To get players to spend money.

- Before this time, the industry did have a problem with groups and PUG's.  This truly was a problem, no one can deny that.  However the leader of all mmo's (World of Warcraft) decided to change the community rules forever.  Now this is my opinion, but I don't think this decision was completely thought out by Blizzard.  Quickly on paper "LFD" sounds like a great problem solver, But it devastated any chance of community.  Like it or not the game turned into a lobby game.  Without going into detail, an overhaul of the social panel would have been a better choice.... But the huge idea of a "Dungeon Finder" was too great of an invention for Blizzard to pass up. 


Why World of Warcraft ? 
We all know the answer to that, their the boss and still are.  The template to making money ! 

However, I'll say something very important...... Blizzard's World of Warcraft being the King of all mmos can make mistakes, huge mistakes and recover.  All that follow can't afford to make the same mistakes, BUT THEY ARE..... They don't have the bounce back like Blizzard. 

What do you think changed everything ? 



Disclaimer:
This is my opinion, I'm sure many will hate me for this as always for stating my OPINION. 
«134

Comments

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    World of Warcraft changed everything for sure, it brought attention to MMO's to a broader swathe of the Gaming community, at a time when the internet was improving beyond the whole 56k modem thing, hell, i even got an ISDN line installed so i could get a better stable connection of 64k, which probably improved my TeamFortress skills noticeably.
    WoW may not have been the first MMO, but it was definitely the first MMO that really emphasised the Massively Multiplayer aspect of MMO's :)
    PrecusorIr1shguyHariken
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    I prefer the days I had to wait to find people to group with. I prefer shouting in local chat to find people. I prefer when I needed to maintain a relationship with fellow players to get stuff done.

    Dungeon finder killed off human relationships and turned a huge world into a lobby.

    You might say I don't have the time anymore to play WoW like that. Yeah, if I want to get all the gear. Go easy on the gear piñata then I don't have to clear the same crap everyday with infinite amount of difficulty. I want to be part of a community. Otherwise I have much better options.

    I don't hate lobbies. But I like MMOs because I like to be a part of a vast world. Otherwise FPS, MOBA and even games like For Honor or Fortnite make me a lot happier. 
    GdemamiSteelhelm
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member EpicPosts: 2,556
    Who knows how long it would've taken for MMO's to hit the mainstream if it wasn't for WoW so gotta give them credit for that.
    [Deleted User]
  • XiaokiXiaoki Member EpicPosts: 3,823
    I prefer the days I had to wait to find people to group with. I prefer shouting in local chat to find people. I prefer when I needed to maintain a relationship with fellow players to get stuff done.

    Dungeon finder killed off human relationships and turned a huge world into a lobby.
    I thank Blizzard for creating the Dungeon Finder. Such a God send.


    I can now play the game when Im playing the game.

    No more sitting in one spot yelling "37 Monk LFG for XYZ PST" for hours on end. And when a group is looking another party member I would get responses like "Ugh no monks".
    Then , it was "well, no groups today, guess I'll try again tomorrow"
    Which, quickly became "no groups again today, why am I even playing this stupid game?"


    These days, you can find a group for many activities(5 man dungeons, raids, world quests, PvP) in short order. So much better than the "good ol' days" of spamming LFG chat for hours.
    GdemamiSBFordalivenIselinWraithoneimmodium
  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 523

    - Before this time, the industry did have a problem with groups and PUG's.  
    Funny, but I had zero problem finding groups or PUGs until AFTER the invention of the dungeon finder. 

    Maybe because I started playing during vanilla and not during Wrath and had a long list of friends that I played with almost 24/7 at times.

    I foolishly replied to this thread knowing that it would fuel more stupid threads from the OP.  It's not like he hasn't hashed this out a thousand times over. . . 

    This forum has turned into that cheap bar everyone knows, where getting drunk and telling tales of the way things were, justifies the loss of all those brain cells.  

    GdemamiHariken
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    Xiaoki said:
    I prefer the days I had to wait to find people to group with. I prefer shouting in local chat to find people. I prefer when I needed to maintain a relationship with fellow players to get stuff done.

    Dungeon finder killed off human relationships and turned a huge world into a lobby.
    I thank Blizzard for creating the Dungeon Finder. Such a God send.


    I can now play the game when Im playing the game.

    No more sitting in one spot yelling "37 Monk LFG for XYZ PST" for hours on end. And when a group is looking another party member I would get responses like "Ugh no monks".
    Then , it was "well, no groups today, guess I'll try again tomorrow"
    Which, quickly became "no groups again today, why am I even playing this stupid game?"


    These days, you can find a group for many activities(5 man dungeons, raids, world quests, PvP) in short order. So much better than the "good ol' days" of spamming LFG chat for hours.
    I understand all that mate and I know how and why many prefer this. But this system isn't win-win. You got convenience at the cost of community. I personally prefer the community part. I respect your choice as well. We just want to spend our gaming time differently--nothing wrong with that. :)
    Gdemami[Deleted User]
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • klash2defklash2def Member EpicPosts: 1,949
    edited September 2017
    simply put: yes and psychology. 

    wow changed everything by taking ideas from the mmos before it and expanding upon them. Blizzard greatly benefited from the internet being a baby thus being able to grow within Internet Pop Culture. They also made a game that was easy to run on every computer. Combine all that with the fact it was the early 2000s.. that's the basics.

    There is another "level" to it though.. the psychology part is the biggest reason. They make people addicted the game by hiding "rare loot" behind a RNG aka variable ratio. It makes people keep coming back to get that rare thing. Its the same tactic casinos use in Vegas. Slot machines.. Once they finally get that "rare thing" they find a new thing to chase.

    The truth is, its not the thing that's rare, (its really pixels) its the dopamine that you are craving, your brain is literally saying "hey this feels good we did a thing! we are awesome! lets do another thing!". Its a psychological reward system. Nothing wrong with that, Dopamine isn't itself bad.. its good in small dosage.. but WoW constantly give it to you. You pay Blizz 15 a month, they feed you a new way to hide the dopamine you desire. Blizzard over the years have learned how to entice players to keep giving them money for this experience and that is why they are still here with a 15 year old game still on top.

    No amount of innovation in a MMO can remove them simply because they were the first to implement this tactic. Therefore, if your friends say hey lets try the "new mmo" 9/10 only like 2 of you guys will try it the rest wont because they are so close to getting that new (insert anything).

    In gambling..the money AND its the dopamine you get from winning a few hundred at blackjack so you go play slot machines cause you think its "your night" and you have the right gear/techniques now to finally do it. Your odds are increased to "win" because you kept playing those slot machines. It becomes a very vicious thing if people are careless about their playtime.

    I've seen people lose their entire life, friends, family over the addiction to WoW. So again it can be fun, if you understand what they are doing to you and what you are getting yourself into..exactly like Vegas, everything in moderation.  

    Did WoW make the MMO market different?  of course it did.. its easy to see just look at every mmo after it they are ALL directly influenced by it. The reason being is wow recognized at some point they could use the psychology behind games to make a fortune. That changed the market.

    Edit: Not sure what mmo introduced micro-transactions first but I think that would be the second thing that changed the mmo market.


    GdemamiExcession
    "Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."


    "The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."



     
    Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear. 


  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    This is about the major effect Blizzard changed the industry.  I'm not knocking them down some like the changes, some don't. 


    However on a side note:

    I was great at finding groups easily using the social panel almost "instant group filling".

    This method was not for everyone, that's for sure.  But it shows the potential was their... If only they enhanced or publicized this feature, it could have worked much better. 

    Social panel was the key for all mmos, very few used it.
    Gdemami
  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,429
    Did we need an easier way to find people for dungeons and quest groups? Yes, we did.

    Did LFD solve this problem? Yes it did, but it also created lots of new problems which were solved by turning the original game to something else.

    Do i like it now? No, i hate the abomination the genre has become with this feature.

    It's super easy to find groups now but i no longer care since i don't play anymore.
    GdemamiKyleranConstantineMerusStoneRoses
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    deniter said:
    Did we need an easier way to find people for dungeons and quest groups? Yes, we did.

    Did LFD solve this problem? Yes it did, but it also created lots of new problems which were solved by turning the original game to something else.

    Do i like it now? No, i hate the abomination the genre has become with this feature.

    It's super easy to find groups now but i no longer care since i don't play anymore.

    Very powerful last line :)

    Finding people is easy, but I no longer care, because of what it is !!!
  • Viper482Viper482 Member LegendaryPosts: 4,056
    edited September 2017
    MMORPG's had a niche audience prior to WoW, and as part of that audience I believe if you were a fan of the genre there were certain things that drew you to it at that time. When WoW came along with its features it attracted a much larger player base. These fans were the majority and demanded more of the same through the popularity of WoW alone. Here come all the AAA clones trying to emulate WoW's success, abandoning the original formula the first gen niche MMO's created. More players=more money. When the big companies like EA started to see dollar signs is when MMO's started being crap. 

    I say that solely from my opinion. If you enjoy the modern MMO great for you, as an original niche MMO fan I don't think the new MMOs take advantage of all this genre has to offer. 

    Gdemami
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 8,914
    Changed everything for me as i bought into there stock @ 6$ a share lonng ago :)
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    The easier difficulty thing was not something that just happened "boom", it was a long sliding thing and it started before Wow even released.

    It was really another Blizzard game that started that: "Diablo 2". The first Diablo was hard, even at easy as most other 90s games but during the time between it's release and 2001 something have happened. The internet had become a widely spread thing at that time, people started paying their bills online, shop and listening to music (remember Napster?) so people who never gamed started to buy computers.

    And the major game companies wanted their money so they made things easier. Since it initially worked well they kept lowering the difficulty the entire 00s and around '08 they just took things too far, most gameplay got so easy that people started to play far less in any PvE game.

    If you compare the time people spend in a Dragon age game with the Baldurs gate game you see a huge difference, most of us spent months playing BG but DA only last 2 weeks at best. Not a huge problem for singleplayer games but for MMOs it is a disaster.

    Wow and others left the hardest raids alone (besides nerfing the numbers of players) but everything else got nerfed hard and the new players who started raiding is rather low because of the huge difficulty gap.

    I am not saying that MMOs should be incredible hard, just that the difficulty needs to be reworked. When Wow released it had a rrather good difficulty slider actually, starting easy and slowly sliding towards hard as you progressed. Players got better and played longer then today where everything is insanely easy until the hard endgame.

    As for the dungeonfinder, that is way more complicated. The reason PUGs become so bad is not just because of it but also because other factors. For one thing have the server size increased a lot. The other social interactions besides PUGing have gone down and the games tend to point and say that you are the only important hero in the world conditioning people to become more selfish.

    Wow certainly have a huge impact on the genre but not that huge,
    klash2def[Deleted User]ConstantineMeruskjempff
  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,429
    DMKano said:
    deniter said:
    Did we need an easier way to find people for dungeons and quest groups? Yes, we did.

    Did LFD solve this problem? Yes it did, but it also created lots of new problems which were solved by turning the original game to something else.

    Do i like it now? No, i hate the abomination the genre has become with this feature.

    It's super easy to find groups now but i no longer care since i don't play anymore.

    Very powerful last line :)

    Finding people is easy, but I no longer care, because of what it is !!!

    The thing is WoW didnt get magically super easy the day LFD came out.

    It became progessivly more accessible to average player over time.

    So what the person is hating is not LFD in itself, but in reality the changes of making WoW super casual which happend gradually with each expansion.


    I believe it was one of the representatives of Blizzard who once said in an interview, that the reason for tweaking dungeon difficulty was the nature of LFD tool. They couldn't control group compositions in terms of classes and levels who queued for a dungeon, so they had to make the dungeons easy enough for groups in the lowest end of the spectrum and independent of class skills and abilities, so that they could be completed without a specific class in a group.

    This is what i meant by saying that LFD did solve one problem but created lots of new ones. It was the invention of this tool that created a snowball effect to the whole game when they started to design everything around this new feature instead of tweaking it more suitable for the game that had become quite popular already.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,919
    http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/04/22/how-world-of-warcraft-fed-on-the-blood-toil-tears-and-sweat-of-its-players

    As for Blizzard tweaking things ........ didn't people feel that this was because of the long / very long queue times during the first great content drought?
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    edited September 2017
    Yes. Also water is wet, fire is hot, and the love of money is the root of all evil.

    "We hold these truths to be self evident..."

    B)
    ConstantineMerus[Deleted User]

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338
    DMKano said:
    What happened was s natural evolution of giving players what they wanted.

    LFD was being asked by majority playerbase already, Blizzard didnt come up with LFD out of the blue.

    People like to blame Blizzard, in reality Blizzard just used the massive amount of player metrics to give its 10mil+ playerbase what they wanted, and they did it better than most.

    Players drive the change with their actions, as players actions ARE the source of metrics game companies use to determine the future path of video games.

    Its how people play games, thats what drives change
    You nailed it brother. 

    I must confess, I was happy to see the dungeon finder at first. I didn't predict anything. But after a couple of years I realized the effects it had on the community. That I didn't like. Made me quit, the convenience killed it for me. 
    Gdemamideniterborghive49
    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    edited September 2017
      Quickly on paper "LFD" sounds like a great problem solver, But it devastated any chance of community.  Like it or not the game turned into a lobby game.
    I don't play games for "communities". I suspect many don't really care (or else why would toxic games like LoL are so popular"). Solving a problem at the expense of "community" is a great thing when people don't care about community.

    Lobby games are a lot more efficient. It is not like cities in WoW are anything but 3D lobbies anyway. May as well make it more friendly to navigate. In fact, isn't it great that in a game like D3, a few clicks will get me in the game mode that i like to play? None of these walking around and jumping through hoops before I actually can play.
    KyleranGdemami
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    That ONE idea "dungeon finder" pretty much sums up Blizzard to me>>>NO CLUE.

    You do not create an immersive living plausible world with computer apps like a dungeon finder,that to me is just retarded.Sure you can say it makes things easier,but so what,i don't want easier i want a role playing experience,something Blizzard has no clue about.

    I do NOT look for a mmorpg thinking "ok where are the best add-ons,give me a dungeon finder,giver me cross server grouping,NO..I want to feel like i am part of a living breathing world and NOT a computer game.
    Blizz is definitley not a lone although MOST are in this same boat,they simply do not understand what they are even making.You might as well sell a cookbook for all  i care,if it doesn't live and breath immersion it is a waste of time as a mmorpg.
    deniter

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Wizardry said:
    That ONE idea "dungeon finder" pretty much sums up Blizzard to me>>>NO CLUE.

    You do not create an immersive living plausible world with computer apps like a dungeon finder,that to me is just retarded..

    You do not realize that they do not want a "immersive living plausible world"? They want a good game.

    Now who is the "retarded"?
    Gdemami
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    I should make a footnote that YES i do understand that if a game wants to deliver their own story part f the game,that is fine,i get it but the MAIN design of the game should focus on OUR STORY not the developers.
    We should not be treated like little kids playing connect the dots,paint by numbers,ok after that join our instances.
    Gdemami

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Wizardry said:
    I should make a footnote that YES i do understand that if a game wants to deliver their own story part f the game,that is fine,i get it but the MAIN design of the game should focus on OUR STORY not the developers.
    We should not be treated like little kids playing connect the dots,paint by numbers,ok after that join our instances.

    Why? It is not like gamers are better story writers than professionals. 

    And it is a free world. If devs want to sell THEIR stories instead of you, and they are widely successful (like in WoW), why should they listen to you?
    SovrathGdemami
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Wizardry said:
    That ONE idea "dungeon finder" pretty much sums up Blizzard to me>>>NO CLUE.

    You do not create an immersive living plausible world with computer apps like a dungeon finder,that to me is just retarded.Sure you can say it makes things easier,but so what,i don't want easier i want a role playing experience,something Blizzard has no clue about.

    I do NOT look for a mmorpg thinking "ok where are the best add-ons,give me a dungeon finder,giver me cross server grouping,NO..I want to feel like i am part of a living breathing world and NOT a computer game.
    Blizz is definitley not a lone although MOST are in this same boat,they simply do not understand what they are even making.You might as well sell a cookbook for all  i care,if it doesn't live and breath immersion it is a waste of time as a mmorpg.
    You assume that Blizzard wanted to create a living world at that point and I don't think that was what they were going for.

    Wow was not made to be a world simulator like UO, it was made for casual fun. And yeah, I think they went too far with the casual thing eventually which hurt the fun part but that is just my own opinion.
    ConstantineMerusSovrathKyleran
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    DMKano said:
    Loke666 said:
    The easier difficulty thing was not something that just happened "boom", it was a long sliding thing and it started before Wow even released.

    It was really another Blizzard game that started that: "Diablo 2". The first Diablo was hard, even at easy as most other 90s games but during the time between it's release and 2001 something have happened. The internet had become a widely spread thing at that time, people started paying their bills online, shop and listening to music (remember Napster?) so people who never gamed started to buy computers.

    And the major game companies wanted their money so they made things easier. Since it initially worked well they kept lowering the difficulty the entire 00s and around '08 they just took things too far, most gameplay got so easy that people started to play far less in any PvE game.

    If you compare the time people spend in a Dragon age game with the Baldurs gate game you see a huge difference, most of us spent months playing BG but DA only last 2 weeks at best. Not a huge problem for singleplayer games but for MMOs it is a disaster.

    Wow and others left the hardest raids alone (besides nerfing the numbers of players) but everything else got nerfed hard and the new players who started raiding is rather low because of the huge difficulty gap.

    I am not saying that MMOs should be incredible hard, just that the difficulty needs to be reworked. When Wow released it had a rrather good difficulty slider actually, starting easy and slowly sliding towards hard as you progressed. Players got better and played longer then today where everything is insanely easy until the hard endgame.

    As for the dungeonfinder, that is way more complicated. The reason PUGs become so bad is not just because of it but also because other factors. For one thing have the server size increased a lot. The other social interactions besides PUGing have gone down and the games tend to point and say that you are the only important hero in the world conditioning people to become more selfish.

    Wow certainly have a huge impact on the genre but not that huge,

    Exactly.

    People like to blame WoW and Blizzard, in reality the entire industry was moving in that direction already.

    MMO accessibility and catering to a casual player has been happening gradually as MMOs gained more mainstream following.


    Metrics would tell you that if there was an exploit most players would use it as well.  Not all metrics are for the best because people will generally follow the path of least resistance.
    StoneRoses
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Loke666 said:


    Wow was not made to be a world simulator like UO, it was made for casual fun. And yeah, I think they went too far with the casual thing eventually which hurt the fun part but that is just my own opinion.
    Yes, that is your opinion, which is your prerogative.

    Blizz obviously thinks that even MORE casual is the way to go. Hence, hearthstone, HOTS and their current golden boy, Overwatch.

    Obviously, fun is subjective. Blizz don't participate care about *your* fun. They care about fun enough for the millions that they serve. 
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