So the argument is: Software developers are allowed to over promise and under-deliver because all software projects are delayed. Simultaneously they also can belittle anyone who tells them their timelines are ridiculously short... because they have internal project documents that show them their ridiculously short timeline is realistic...
Yup... some folks need to go back to grade school alright but it's not the skeptics.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So the argument is: Software developers are allowed to over promise and under-deliver because all software projects are delayed. Simultaneously they also can belittle anyone who tells them their timelines are ridiculously short... because they have internal project documents that show them their ridiculously short timeline is realistic...
Yup... some folks need to go back to grade school alright but it's not the skeptics.
Exactly. Craz, you're so focused on project development that you're not even seeing the real argument I'm making. But thanks for the laugh.
So the argument is: Software developers are allowed to over promise and under-deliver because all software projects are delayed. Simultaneously they also can belittle anyone who tells them their timelines are ridiculously short... because they have internal project documents that show them their ridiculously short timeline is realistic...
Yup... some folks need to go back to grade school alright but it's not the skeptics.
Yup! Fuck, I knew you'd get it at some point. Took 4 pages to hammer it home, but we did it. Thanks American educational system.
No it won't. Asking for 1M, raising 3M, delaying the game for at least a year and only "making progress " is not proof of competence.
1 million to 3 million is irrelevant. Complex projects always have delays, it is to be expected even when led by experienced projects managers. So yes the only factor that reflects on their competence is the actual game. The rest is just malicious slander.
they also can belittle anyone who tells them their timelines are ridiculously short...
While he shouldn't have done that, I struggle to feel sympathy for trolls on the internet that attack a project and get a huffy response from its creator. Still no basis to question their competency. Question the viability of the project? Maybe. But it has nothing to do with competency.
No it won't. Asking for 1M, raising 3M, delaying the game for at least a year and only "making progress " is not proof of competence.
1 million to 3 million is irrelevant. Complex projects always have delays, it is to be expected even when led by experienced projects managers. So yes the only factor that reflects on their competence is the actual game. The rest is just malicious slander.
You keep using that word... yet it's blatantly obvious you have no idea what it means. Slander is when you make false statements about someone (you are probably meaning LIBEL which is writing them). Saying that the guy miscalculated his timeline, belittled those who challenged that timeline and delayed his project by at least a year is neither slander nor libel. It's called FACT.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.
But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.
I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.
But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.
I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.
For whatever reason, the fact that it's a software product means it's above all the normal responsibilities and expectations you would hold any other producer to, despite other industries dealing with unforeseen roadblocks and delays just the same.
Part of project management is anticipating and resolving issues that hold up progress towards completion of the project. That's a universal truth that isn't really bound by the type of product. All sophisticated projects hit snags. The only difference between a traditional project and crowdfunding is that the "investors" here are much more gullible.
In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.
But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.
I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.
For whatever reason, the fact that it's a software product means it's above all the normal responsibilities and expectations you would hold any other producer to, despite other industries dealing with unforeseen roadblocks and delays just the same.
Part of project management is anticipating and resolving issues that hold up progress towards completion of the project. That's a universal truth that isn't really bound by the type of product. All sophisticated projects hit snags. The only difference between a traditional project and crowdfunding is that the "investors" here are much more gullible.
You had a good point up until that last bit. The project part is dead on, although you make it sound so much simpler than it really is. Sometimes even when you see the train coming down the tunnel there is nothing you can do to stop the wreck, even if you try. With complex projects no one entity can control all the variables of all the other entities and actors. It's simply not possible.
Hence the cone of uncertainty diagram Caspian shared in his update, clearly someone taught him something new.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.
But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.
I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.
Yeah, you do have to answer for delays. I'm actually sitting on a project right now that is delayed indefinitely because of issues that were known going into the project, but underestimated. However, that was a risk that the organization was aware of and willing to take. There has been exactly zero fallout on that project and work continues to solve the issues which are blocking us from progressing forward.
That is reality. The fairy land you are referring to seems to exist somewhere between reality and the underbelly of the Internet. However, it seems that there were SOME amount of relevant reasons given for delays, but for whatever reason, anything that isn't binary cannot exist on the Internet (pun intended). Were dates missed? Yeah, I don't think that can be disputed. Do you have all the facts to say why? Nope! Certainly not. Those are two facts. Everything else is just speculation and opinion.
If you believe you have all the answers, please feel free to enlighten us. I will personally walk away from this forum if you're able to give me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. Actually, I'll stop posting if anyone gives me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. I have a feeling my account will be quite safe.
In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.
But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.
I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.
Yeah, you do have to answer for delays. I'm actually sitting on a project right now that is delayed indefinitely because of issues that were known going into the project, but underestimated. However, that was a risk that the organization was aware of and willing to take. There has been exactly zero fallout on that project and work continues to solve the issues which are blocking us from progressing forward.
That is reality. The fairy land you are referring to seems to exist somewhere between reality and the underbelly of the Internet. However, it seems that there were SOME amount of relevant reasons given for delays, but for whatever reason, anything that isn't binary cannot exist on the Internet (pun intended). Were dates missed? Yeah, I don't think that can be disputed. Do you have all the facts to say why? Nope! Certainly not. Those are two facts. Everything else is just speculation and opinion.
If you believe you have all the answers, please feel free to enlighten us. I will personally walk away from this forum if you're able to give me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. Actually, I'll stop posting if anyone gives me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. I have a feeling my account will be quite safe.
Yes but do you have any thing to say about whether criticism of bad project management is a reasonable thing to do? Just to get back on topic...
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.
But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.
I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.
Yeah, you do have to answer for delays. I'm actually sitting on a project right now that is delayed indefinitely because of issues that were known going into the project, but underestimated. However, that was a risk that the organization was aware of and willing to take. There has been exactly zero fallout on that project and work continues to solve the issues which are blocking us from progressing forward.
That is reality. The fairy land you are referring to seems to exist somewhere between reality and the underbelly of the Internet. However, it seems that there were SOME amount of relevant reasons given for delays, but for whatever reason, anything that isn't binary cannot exist on the Internet (pun intended). Were dates missed? Yeah, I don't think that can be disputed. Do you have all the facts to say why? Nope! Certainly not. Those are two facts. Everything else is just speculation and opinion.
If you believe you have all the answers, please feel free to enlighten us. I will personally walk away from this forum if you're able to give me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. Actually, I'll stop posting if anyone gives me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. I have a feeling my account will be quite safe.
Yes but do you have any thing to say about whether criticism of bad project management is a reasonable thing to do? Just to get back on topic...
Sure, it's reasonable to question why, but there is little of that going on. Caspian made a schedule and then was an asshole in defending it, so now the extent of the argument is "HA!!! See? How do you like that?!!" That's being about as honest as I can be. There has been almost zero thoughtful or constructive criticism. I mean if someone wants to have an actual intelligent debate on the subject then they should probably find another thread, and even maybe a different forum entirely. Apart from pure entertainment, there is very little value here.
In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.
But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.
I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.
Yeah, you do have to answer for delays. I'm actually sitting on a project right now that is delayed indefinitely because of issues that were known going into the project, but underestimated. However, that was a risk that the organization was aware of and willing to take. There has been exactly zero fallout on that project and work continues to solve the issues which are blocking us from progressing forward.
That is reality. The fairy land you are referring to seems to exist somewhere between reality and the underbelly of the Internet. However, it seems that there were SOME amount of relevant reasons given for delays, but for whatever reason, anything that isn't binary cannot exist on the Internet (pun intended). Were dates missed? Yeah, I don't think that can be disputed. Do you have all the facts to say why? Nope! Certainly not. Those are two facts. Everything else is just speculation and opinion.
If you believe you have all the answers, please feel free to enlighten us. I will personally walk away from this forum if you're able to give me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. Actually, I'll stop posting if anyone gives me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. I have a feeling my account will be quite safe.
Yes but do you have any thing to say about whether criticism of bad project management is a reasonable thing to do? Just to get back on topic...
Sure, it's reasonable to question why, but there is little of that going on. Caspian made a schedule and then was an asshole in defending it, so now the extent of the argument is "HA!!! See? How do you like that?!!" That's being about as honest as I can be. There has been almost zero thoughtful or constructive criticism. I mean if someone wants to have an actual intelligent debate on the subject then they should probably find another thread, and even maybe a different forum entirely. Apart from pure entertainment, there is very little value here.
Because taking potshots from safety is easier than adding constructive criticism so that's all they have to offer. Beside if anyone had any real constructive criticism that worked, outside of noting deficiencies, then projects wouldn't have these issues.
Fixing their issues is not the problem of the consumer. They're asking us for money, not the other way around.
The consumer only has the responsibility to make a reasonable effort to educate themselves about the project. Craz's attempts to act as if normal folks should know the in's and out's of software developer is the inane part.
Next time you send food back at the restaurant, make sure you give them a post mortem on how they misused individual ingredients to reach a final product you don't enjoy, okay?
I can't imagine anyone truly believes this specific forum and website is for the purpose of having thoughtful discussions on games. It's really just a sounding board for all the crap we hate.
So, in that vein - in particular, I hate how CoE is another example of a project that is destroying the credibility of the crowdfunding and early-access development model.
I also hate when self-deluded, arrogant, and incompetent people take a great idea for a game and seemingly do everything possible to ruin the project.
In the real world if you miss deadlines you have to answer to your boss or board of directors or investors and you can bet your ass that when those deadlines are missed by more than 100%, questions about competence would be the least of the project manager's worries. Loosing your job and being relplaced would be a very probable outcome.
But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.
I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.
Yeah, you do have to answer for delays. I'm actually sitting on a project right now that is delayed indefinitely because of issues that were known going into the project, but underestimated. However, that was a risk that the organization was aware of and willing to take. There has been exactly zero fallout on that project and work continues to solve the issues which are blocking us from progressing forward.
That is reality. The fairy land you are referring to seems to exist somewhere between reality and the underbelly of the Internet. However, it seems that there were SOME amount of relevant reasons given for delays, but for whatever reason, anything that isn't binary cannot exist on the Internet (pun intended). Were dates missed? Yeah, I don't think that can be disputed. Do you have all the facts to say why? Nope! Certainly not. Those are two facts. Everything else is just speculation and opinion.
If you believe you have all the answers, please feel free to enlighten us. I will personally walk away from this forum if you're able to give me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. Actually, I'll stop posting if anyone gives me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. I have a feeling my account will be quite safe.
Yes but do you have any thing to say about whether criticism of bad project management is a reasonable thing to do? Just to get back on topic...
Sure, it's reasonable to question why, but there is little of that going on. Caspian made a schedule and then was an asshole in defending it, so now the extent of the argument is "HA!!! See? How do you like that?!!" That's being about as honest as I can be. There has been almost zero thoughtful or constructive criticism. I mean if someone wants to have an actual intelligent debate on the subject then they should probably find another thread, and even maybe a different forum entirely. Apart from pure entertainment, there is very little value here.
Because taking potshots from safety is easier than adding constructive criticism so that's all they have to offer. Beside if anyone had any real constructive criticism that worked, outside of noting deficiencies, then projects wouldn't have these issues.
Fixing their issues is not the problem of the consumer. They're asking us for money, not the other way around.
The consumer only has the responsibility to make a reasonable effort to educate themselves about the project. Craz's attempts to act as if normal folks should know the in's and out's of software developer is the inane part.
Next time you send food back at the restaurant, make sure you give them a post mortem on how they misused individual ingredients to reach a final product you don't enjoy, okay?
First of all, I don't think they're asking you for money, are they? Please, don't back it!
If there is some reasonable effort to educate yourself on the project, PLEASE let me know. See, I've tried doing some of that and it seems as though you're taking that as meaning that I'm saying normal folks don't matter. No. Sorry. What's happening here is like me going onto a forum and asking how a black hole works. Then Steven Hawking comes on there and tries to explain to me about black holes and I'm like "Nope! I don't believe that!"
I mean the person MANAGING the project gave some valid reasons for why the project is delayed and SOME people, including you, choose to ignore it. Specifically, staffing is one major part. Let's say I give you a project and you deliver me a project plan of 2 years. Part of that plan is hiring people for the project. Then I say "Cool! Let's do it!" Then you ask me for a requisition to hire people and I say that you can't right now. A year later I give you that requisition and express how I'm looking forward to seeing that project next year. That's quite literally an example of what's going on here. This is what I mean when I say that people aren't interested in logical debate.
So the argument is: Software developers are allowed to over promise and under-deliver because all software projects are delayed. Simultaneously they also can belittle anyone who tells them their timelines are ridiculously short... because they have internal project documents that show them their ridiculously short timeline is realistic...
Yup... some folks need to go back to grade school alright but it's not the skeptics.
Yup! Fuck, I knew you'd get it at some point. Took 4 pages to hammer it home, but we did it. Thanks American educational system.
And here I thought the thread was over at this point...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
<sigh> way to completely ignore a glaring flaw in that rant: normal folks aren't qualified to judge the dangers of delays on such a complex project. Folks on my side aren't ignoring the realities of game development; you're all ignoring the realities of marketing and the effect perceived positions of authority have on a consumers purchasing decision. These effects are well-documented. When they're used to gather funds for a project based upon such pie-in-the-sky promises and unrealistic timelines, they become predatory. When you then become aggressive with your backers when they give you pushback about those promises and that timeline, you look even less trustworthy. This is the entire reason investors existed in the first place; their jobs are literally researching the project at a level the normal consumer cannot.
I'm sure there was someone in the Wild West attempting to defend the rights of snake oil salesman to provide a misleading overview of their product because no one is forced to buy it and normal folks just don't understand "modern chemistry"! Doesn't make them any less of a snake oil salesman.
And they assumed the PR risks of asking the public for funding. No one forced them to ask the general public for money, right? They chose to do so, and Caspian chose to confine himself to the unrealistic timeline and still attempted, for the duration of the KS, to insist that was a legitimate timeline. If you have evidence of where he said "yea that's a pretty unrealistic timeline, just so you guys know before you give me money." I've not read nor heard of such a statement's existence.
So the argument is: Software developers are allowed to over promise and under-deliver because all software projects are delayed. Simultaneously they also can belittle anyone who tells them their timelines are ridiculously short... because they have internal project documents that show them their ridiculously short timeline is realistic...
Yup... some folks need to go back to grade school alright but it's not the skeptics.
Yup! Fuck, I knew you'd get it at some point. Took 4 pages to hammer it home, but we did it. Thanks American educational system.
And here I thought the thread was over at this point...
No, that was me simply telling you what you wanted to hear..... for reasons that should be obvious.
<sigh> way to completely ignore a glaring flaw in that rant: normal folks aren't qualified to judge the dangers of delays on such a complex project. Folks on my side aren't ignoring the realities of game development; you're all ignoring the realities of marketing and the effect perceived positions of anduthority have on a consumers purchasing decision. These effects are well-documented. When they're used to gather funds for a project based upon such pie-in-the-sky promises and unrealistic timelines, they become predatory. When you then become aggressive with your backers when they give you pushback about those promises and that timeline, you look even less trustworthy. This is the entire reason investors existed in the first place; their jobs are literally researching the project at a level the normal consumer cannot.
I'm sure there was someone in the Wild West attempting to defend the rights of snake oil salesman to provide a misleading overview of their product because no one is force to buy it and normal folks just don't understand "modern chemistry"! Doesn't make them any less of a snake oil salesman.
And they assumed the PR risks of asking them he public for funding. No one forced them to ask the general public for money, right? They chose to do so, and Caspian chose to confine himself to the unrealistic timeline and still attempted, for the duration of the KS, to insist that was a legitimate timeline. If you have evidence of where he said "yea that's a pretty unrealistic timeline, just so you guys know before you give me money." I've not read nor heard of such a statement's existence.
Except that's not really a good comparison though the point you're trying to make is good.
"Snake Oil Salesmen" are blatantly lying about a complete product and what it does.
AND they are preying on the insecurities/needs of less educated folk.
A more "apples to apples" comparison would be a game being fully released and then not having anything that it is being touted as having.
In the case of crowdfunded mmorpg development (or any game for that matter) there is nothing but promises as most of the time there is little to show.
I've seen dozens upon dozens of these games and have rarely given to any one of them. Not because the promises weren't awesome or that the scope of the game wasn't amazing but because I saw no real evidence that some group of people with a dream could pull off what they said they could.
Heck, I love the idea of Pantheon and if it launches will be there day one but I've yet to give them a dime and certainly didn't fund their kickstarter. Especially with it being as lackluster as it was.
So it either falls to education (people just aren't educated in what they are actually giving their money to), or people don't care and are willing to give money just because they "hope it will come true".
As far as this game goes, I saw how much they were asking and just thought it was ridiculous. And I like the premise of the game.
The real issue, for me, is how unprofessional they are. It's as if they want to be the poster child for "cocky developers who think they know better than anyone else and can do more with less and also feel that they can say whatever they want because you are either with us or against us".
It would be much better for all involved to just be respectful yet straightforward with what was going on. I almost think that they think that even if they don't launch the game they have had others fund their experience so that they can now apply for game development jobs at more established studios.
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Again, Sovrath... You're not the normal person. The vast majority of gamers do not spend time every day on a gaming forum following game development. And they shouldn't have to to avoid being taken by predatory developers attempting to wow them with nothing but buzzwords and empty promises.
I do realize the snake oil salesman isn't a 1 to 1 analogy, but my point was that the consumers are bombarded with too much marketing information to attempt to imply they're the only ones who can be held accountable in these situations. It's unrealistic.
So the argument is: Software developers are allowed to over promise and under-deliver because all software projects are delayed. Simultaneously they also can belittle anyone who tells them their timelines are ridiculously short... because they have internal project documents that show them their ridiculously short timeline is realistic...
Yup... some folks need to go back to grade school alright but it's not the skeptics.
Yup! Fuck, I knew you'd get it at some point. Took 4 pages to hammer it home, but we did it. Thanks American educational system.
And here I thought the thread was over at this point...
No, that was me simply telling you what you wanted to hear..... for reasons that should be obvious.
Some folks don't get sarcasm I guess
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Again, Sovrath... You're not the normal person. The vast majority of gamers do not spend time every day on a gaming forum following game development. And they shouldn't have to to avoid being taken by predatory developers attempting to wow them with nothing but buzzwords and empty promises.
I do realize the snake oil salesman isn't a 1 to 1 analogy, but my point was that the consumers are bombarded with too much marketing information to attempt to imply they're the only ones who can be held accountable in these situations. It's unrealistic.
While I appreciate that I'm not the normal player/gamer (and yes you are correct, most people don't spend a lot of time on game forums) this speaks to a more fundamental "let the buyer beware".
People buy products and services every day. They also invest their money, donate their money, loan their money to various people/organizations every day.
I find it hard to believe we have to make excuses for people who should be doing their due diligence just like they would be doing in buying a car, a house, a 2nd home, managing their retirement, choosing great equipment for their hobbies, arranging a marriage, etc.
If anything, it seems that "gamers" seem to want to get a pass, almost as if they really are the people purported to live in their parent's basements, living emodiments of the man/boy woman/girl ideals who can't take care of themselves.
But they're not. They are doctors and lawyers and professionals and craftsmen, carpenters, steam fitters, programmers and "what have you".
They go through life like anyone else and learn the same lessons we all learn.
If they are having a hard time managing their money and what to do with it along with where they eventually put it then that's a larger issue that's beyond game funding.
Oh sure, I get your point, the average joe sees the pitch and doesn't know that game development is sketchy and puts x amount of dollars in because he/she thinks they are going to get the promised game.
But if some alarm bells aren't going off then why haven't they learned their lesson.
It's like the woman at South Station, during Christmas, who posted pictures of hurt animals and she was asking for donations. I was a bit suspect until another woman called her on her permit/organization and it turned out she was just bilking people out of their money.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Right, but the reason those items are researched more heavily lies more with a long-term payment commitment, rather than a normal investigation into the purchase. You'll noticed you mentioned solely large ticket, financed items. Additionally, though the car salesman will attempt to make his product look as awesome ares possible, they also aren't offering the promise of ares car in the future; it's there, right in front of you, ready to be inspected to your heart's content.
Crowdfunded MMORPGs aren't cars or homes. They aren't as tangible; they don't have addresses nor do they exist in physical space. It's a much more abstract concept to attempt to investigate and evaluate. Crowdfunding developers don't even have to open their books to the consumer. It's not just that the consumer doesn't have a realistic chance to properly evaluate; they have no chance to properly evaluate until it's a post mortem. Then, it's too late.
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Yup... some folks need to go back to grade school alright but it's not the skeptics.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Yup! Fuck, I knew you'd get it at some point. Took 4 pages to hammer it home, but we did it. Thanks American educational system.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But it seems like in the fairy land of crowdfunded MMOs something as obvious and relatively mild as daring to question their competence is enough to get the volunteer defenders of the faith to rally and attack the critics.
I guess the moral of the story is that if you suck at project management there's always a secure job for you in crowdfunded MMO projects that even comes with the perk of a small army of cultists ready to to shout down any critics... damn good job if you can get it.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Part of project management is anticipating and resolving issues that hold up progress towards completion of the project. That's a universal truth that isn't really bound by the type of product. All sophisticated projects hit snags. The only difference between a traditional project and crowdfunding is that the "investors" here are much more gullible.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yeah, you do have to answer for delays. I'm actually sitting on a project right now that is delayed indefinitely because of issues that were known going into the project, but underestimated. However, that was a risk that the organization was aware of and willing to take. There has been exactly zero fallout on that project and work continues to solve the issues which are blocking us from progressing forward.
That is reality. The fairy land you are referring to seems to exist somewhere between reality and the underbelly of the Internet. However, it seems that there were SOME amount of relevant reasons given for delays, but for whatever reason, anything that isn't binary cannot exist on the Internet (pun intended). Were dates missed? Yeah, I don't think that can be disputed. Do you have all the facts to say why? Nope! Certainly not. Those are two facts. Everything else is just speculation and opinion.
If you believe you have all the answers, please feel free to enlighten us. I will personally walk away from this forum if you're able to give me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. Actually, I'll stop posting if anyone gives me all the facts surrounding why this game was delayed. I have a feeling my account will be quite safe.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Sure, it's reasonable to question why, but there is little of that going on. Caspian made a schedule and then was an asshole in defending it, so now the extent of the argument is "HA!!! See? How do you like that?!!" That's being about as honest as I can be. There has been almost zero thoughtful or constructive criticism. I mean if someone wants to have an actual intelligent debate on the subject then they should probably find another thread, and even maybe a different forum entirely. Apart from pure entertainment, there is very little value here.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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The consumer only has the responsibility to make a reasonable effort to educate themselves about the project. Craz's attempts to act as if normal folks should know the in's and out's of software developer is the inane part.
Next time you send food back at the restaurant, make sure you give them a post mortem on how they misused individual ingredients to reach a final product you don't enjoy, okay?
So, in that vein - in particular, I hate how CoE is another example of a project that is destroying the credibility of the crowdfunding and early-access development model.
I also hate when self-deluded, arrogant, and incompetent people take a great idea for a game and seemingly do everything possible to ruin the project.
First of all, I don't think they're asking you for money, are they? Please, don't back it!
If there is some reasonable effort to educate yourself on the project, PLEASE let me know. See, I've tried doing some of that and it seems as though you're taking that as meaning that I'm saying normal folks don't matter. No. Sorry. What's happening here is like me going onto a forum and asking how a black hole works. Then Steven Hawking comes on there and tries to explain to me about black holes and I'm like "Nope! I don't believe that!"
I mean the person MANAGING the project gave some valid reasons for why the project is delayed and SOME people, including you, choose to ignore it. Specifically, staffing is one major part. Let's say I give you a project and you deliver me a project plan of 2 years. Part of that plan is hiring people for the project. Then I say "Cool! Let's do it!" Then you ask me for a requisition to hire people and I say that you can't right now. A year later I give you that requisition and express how I'm looking forward to seeing that project next year. That's quite literally an example of what's going on here. This is what I mean when I say that people aren't interested in logical debate.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I'm sure there was someone in the Wild West attempting to defend the rights of snake oil salesman to provide a misleading overview of their product because no one is forced to buy it and normal folks just don't understand "modern chemistry"! Doesn't make them any less of a snake oil salesman.
And they assumed the PR risks of asking the public for funding. No one forced them to ask the general public for money, right? They chose to do so, and Caspian chose to confine himself to the unrealistic timeline and still attempted, for the duration of the KS, to insist that was a legitimate timeline. If you have evidence of where he said "yea that's a pretty unrealistic timeline, just so you guys know before you give me money." I've not read nor heard of such a statement's existence.
No, that was me simply telling you what you wanted to hear..... for reasons that should be obvious.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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"Snake Oil Salesmen" are blatantly lying about a complete product and what it does.
AND they are preying on the insecurities/needs of less educated folk.
A more "apples to apples" comparison would be a game being fully released and then not having anything that it is being touted as having.
In the case of crowdfunded mmorpg development (or any game for that matter) there is nothing but promises as most of the time there is little to show.
I've seen dozens upon dozens of these games and have rarely given to any one of them. Not because the promises weren't awesome or that the scope of the game wasn't amazing but because I saw no real evidence that some group of people with a dream could pull off what they said they could.
Heck, I love the idea of Pantheon and if it launches will be there day one but I've yet to give them a dime and certainly didn't fund their kickstarter. Especially with it being as lackluster as it was.
So it either falls to education (people just aren't educated in what they are actually giving their money to), or people don't care and are willing to give money just because they "hope it will come true".
As far as this game goes, I saw how much they were asking and just thought it was ridiculous. And I like the premise of the game.
The real issue, for me, is how unprofessional they are. It's as if they want to be the poster child for "cocky developers who think they know better than anyone else and can do more with less and also feel that they can say whatever they want because you are either with us or against us".
It would be much better for all involved to just be respectful yet straightforward with what was going on. I almost think that they think that even if they don't launch the game they have had others fund their experience so that they can now apply for game development jobs at more established studios.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I do realize the snake oil salesman isn't a 1 to 1 analogy, but my point was that the consumers are bombarded with too much marketing information to attempt to imply they're the only ones who can be held accountable in these situations. It's unrealistic.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
People buy products and services every day. They also invest their money, donate their money, loan their money to various people/organizations every day.
I find it hard to believe we have to make excuses for people who should be doing their due diligence just like they would be doing in buying a car, a house, a 2nd home, managing their retirement, choosing great equipment for their hobbies, arranging a marriage, etc.
If anything, it seems that "gamers" seem to want to get a pass, almost as if they really are the people purported to live in their parent's basements, living emodiments of the man/boy woman/girl ideals who can't take care of themselves.
But they're not. They are doctors and lawyers and professionals and craftsmen, carpenters, steam fitters, programmers and "what have you".
They go through life like anyone else and learn the same lessons we all learn.
If they are having a hard time managing their money and what to do with it along with where they eventually put it then that's a larger issue that's beyond game funding.
Oh sure, I get your point, the average joe sees the pitch and doesn't know that game development is sketchy and puts x amount of dollars in because he/she thinks they are going to get the promised game.
But if some alarm bells aren't going off then why haven't they learned their lesson.
It's like the woman at South Station, during Christmas, who posted pictures of hurt animals and she was asking for donations. I was a bit suspect until another woman called her on her permit/organization and it turned out she was just bilking people out of their money.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Crowdfunded MMORPGs aren't cars or homes. They aren't as tangible; they don't have addresses nor do they exist in physical space. It's a much more abstract concept to attempt to investigate and evaluate. Crowdfunding developers don't even have to open their books to the consumer. It's not just that the consumer doesn't have a realistic chance to properly evaluate; they have no chance to properly evaluate until it's a post mortem. Then, it's too late.