Camelot Unchained - Beta incoming any time soon?

2

Comments

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,895
    That's bullshit.  

    You have no no evidence that refunds would be cut off. None whatsoever.   What is a FACT is that if you want your money back from CU you request it and get it.

    What is a FACT is that COE does not allow refunds even after massive delays and inability to deliver product.


    Thats a huge difference and it's a FACT not an opinion.   You answered your own question about why one company catches shit for delays and the other catches much less.   The other is that the CU developer actually apologizes for delays and shows humility and seems like a likable guy.  The COE developer comes off as unlikable, arrogant, shit on his customers that dared to question his ridiculous timeline and never apologized but rather blamed customers and prospective employees for his year plus delay.

    These are reasons why CU "gets a pass".  

    PS:  This doesn't excuse MJ or CU for being so far behind.  It's embarrassing. But it explains the different receptions the two games get.


    You know, I'll admit, I've bought a LOT of stuff from infomercials. I can't really think of any, except maybe my food dehydrator, which actually performed well enough that I'd recommend it to a friend. However, even though they offered me a fantastic refund policy, I have never refunded a single one of those. 

    Someone can offer an open refund policy as much as they like, but people backed this project for a reason, so it would take much more than years worth of delays to have them actually take money AWAY from the project they dreamed about having. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if many even forgot they backed it entirely, or are even waiting intently on it. Most will be satisfied to just sit and wait.

    Anyway, the point is that you're hanging your hat on something that infomercials have used since..... fuck... the inception of infomercials in order to sell shitty products and dreams to consumers, but they know damn well you'll never actually do it. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,541
    Utterly ridiculous analogy.   True analogy is:

    Two infomercials sell your a product.   Both are delayed by over a year.  Company A apologizes and offers a refund.  Company B doesn't apologize and says no refunds.


    RealizerJamesGoblinYashaX

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,895
    Utterly ridiculous analogy.   True analogy is:

    Two infomercials sell your a product.   Both are delayed by over a year.  Company A apologizes and offers a refund.  Company B doesn't apologize and says no refunds.


    Again, if you believe you don't have options then you're making yourself a victim. At this point CoE has broken the contract of purchase and are more than open to chargebacks, which would be even more damaging than refunds. I don't remember off-hand what the percentages were, but all it takes is like a fraction of a percentage of your orders to be charged back and you could lose your merchant account. So I'd be willing to bet that CoE would also process refunds even though they don't explicitly offer them, the same way that SC processed refunds after they said they were no longer offering them. 

    The whole refund policy is a farce. It's a perceived risk. In actuality, it is GOOD for the game. *gasp* THE HELL YOU SAY!!! That's right! Why? SO! First of all, my understanding is that there were refunds offered well after the Kickstarter ended, so anyone who had second thoughts about the whole thing was able to get out. These are the backers remorse people. 

    At this point, a zero refund "policy" simply means that the people putting money INTO the project aren't expecting to remove it. This also means more stability in funding from backers and it means that they can rely on that funding more easily, which actually reduces the risk to the project of a mass exodus. HOWEVER, are there exceptions? Are there people getting refunds? I'm sure there are. 

    Something like CU, on the other hand, with an open refund policy means that at any point they could have a big hit to their project funding, should something like missing a key target date finally erupt refunds (similar to SC). Should this result in refunds amounting to millions, what do you think that does to the project? What do you think that a response to that hemorrhaging of cash would be? LUCKILY! MJ created a game a long time ago that had a cult following and can use his past successes in hopes of preventing this sort of mass exodus. However, the refund policy is/SHOULD be something that is accounted for in project risks. If not then he really is a shitty PM.

    From a customer perspective, though, yeah it's great having safety nets. If you are looking for security, though, why not just wait for release? What's the value in backing early?  

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAMember RarePosts: 648
    edited August 14
    So, if you folks don't mind me jumping in here, I'd just like to say a bunch of things:

    1) I am embarrassed, and I've said so many times (as you folks have noted) about the delays. Most of the causes were unavoidable, but not all of them were. For example, we had to open the studio in VA or there wouldn't have been a studio.

    2) Our refund policy is unchanged, and will remain unchanged until we give our current Backers 30 days notice of a change. We would never just close off refunds without giving all of our Backers a chance to ask for a refund.

    3) In terms of another key difference with CU/me, I and the other investor have a big stake in this. I've already committed more money to this game than I expected to because of the opening of the studio in Seattle and the delays. 

    4) We haven't done any addition fund-raising rounds, either through equity crowd-funding or telethons. The other investor and I are taking these expenses onto ourselves because we are late. There are other devs who have way more personal money than me and aren't doing the same. I also haven't paid myself, in any way, in four years other than my health insurance (I need to do this to be on the company's coverage).

    5) Whether I'm likable, a good guy, or the spawn of Satan, the choice is yours of course, but the one thing that I can say about myself is that as I promised here, there, and everywhere during the Kickstarter, that I would not disappear, hide, etc. from our mistakes and our Backers. I have kept that promise 100% as posts like this show. I'm constantly on our Forums, reply to personal emails (albeit slowly), here, MOP, and other sites occasionally. I apologize and explain delays, I give updates about everything that happens in the studio (subject to typical HR considerations/privacy considerations when somebody leaves/asked to leave).

    Now, does that merit additional leeway from people? I would like to think so, especially because of 2-4. We're not perfect, but we have treated our Backers the way I want to be treated as a backer of other KS games as well as a gamer myself. Delays happen in making games and even more so when you are trying to do something really difficult and then compound it by making our own engine that can handle large-scale battles. The good news is that over the last two weeks we showed our Backers that we could back up our words with something no other MMORPG has been able to do to date. While that doesn't earn me any additional consideration from non-Backers, the fact is that our little studio was able to do something that has eluded every MMORPG studio to date by showing 1K Bots (fully autonomous, bandwidth-eating, networked PC clients) & players all running around on the same map, in the same small area and using abilities while shooting off fireworks while still playable on a minimal spec machine. And, BTW, we had people calling in from Europe (we set the test time to be more advantageous to our European Backers), MENA and beyond, while our servers were in Virginia, and the game was extremely playable. One of our MENA (Middle East and North Africa) Backers and I were in touch during the whole test and he was, quite frankly, surprised at the engine's performance on both the client/server side. He was/is a very happy guy right now. 

    Sorry for the long response, I had more to say than I thought.

    Thanks all for comments, interest (even waning/waned), etc. I don't expect people just to take me/us at our word and we will be livestreaming some sessions before we go into Beta 1 so you will be able to judge the merit/truth (or not) in what I said here.

    And as usual, I won't comment on other devs, their habits, or their games. 
    Post edited by MarkJacobs on
    SedrynTyrosConstantineMerusExcessionKyleranRealizermeddyckcameltosisJamesGoblinjimmywolfvito11and 1 other.

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Boca Raton, FLMember EpicPosts: 7,541
    Thanks Mark!
    You had me at #1.  To each their own,  but to me that type of response is exactly what I'm looking for when things go wrong.  Combine that with #2 and that sets you apart from other crowdfunded MMORPG.  
    KyleranJamesGoblinYashaX

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,895
    So, if you folks don't mind me jumping in here, I'd just like to say a bunch of things:

    1) I am embarrassed, and I've said so many times (as you folks have noted) about the delays. Most of the causes were unavoidable, but not all of them were. For example, we had to open the studio in VA or there wouldn't have been a studio.

    2) Our refund policy is unchanged, and will remain unchanged until we give our current Backers 30 days notice of a change. We would never just close off refunds without giving all of our Backers a chance to ask for a refund.

    3) In terms of another key difference with CU/me, I and the other investor have a big stake in this. I've already committed more money to this game than I expected to because of the opening of the studio in Seattle and the delays. 

    4) We haven't done any addition fund-raising rounds, either through equity crowd-funding or telethons. The other investor and I are taking these expenses onto ourselves because we are late. There are other devs who have way more personal money than me and aren't doing the same. I also haven't paid myself, in any way, in four years other than my health insurance (I need to do this to be on the company's coverage).

    5) Whether I'm likable, a good guy, or the spawn of Satan, the choice is yours of course, but the one thing that I can say about myself is that as I promised here, there, and everywhere during the Kickstarter, that I would not disappear, hide, etc. from our mistakes and our Backers. I have kept that promise 100% as posts like this show. I'm constantly on our Forums, reply to personal emails (albeit slowly), here, MOP, and other sites occasionally. I apologize and explain delays, I give updates about everything that happens in the studio (subject to typical HR considerations/privacy considerations when somebody leaves/asked to leave).

    Now, does that merit additional leeway from people? I would like to think so, especially because of 2-4. We're not perfect, but we have treated our Backers the way I want to be treated as a backer of other KS games as well as a gamer myself. Delays happen in making games and even more so when you are trying to do something really difficult and then compound it by making our own engine that can handle large-scale battles. The good news is that over the last two weeks we showed our Backers that we could back up our words with something no other MMORPG has been able to do to date. While that doesn't earn me any additional consideration from non-Backers, the fact is that our little studio was able to do something that has eluded every MMORPG studio to date by showing 1K Bots (fully autonomous, bandwidth-eating, networked PC clients) & players all running around on the same map, in the same small area and using abilities while shooting off fireworks while still playable on a minimal spec machine. And, BTW, we had people calling in from Europe (we set the test time to be more advantageous to our European Backers), MENA and beyond, while our servers were in Virginia, and the game was extremely playable. One of our MENA (Middle East and North Africa) Backers and I were in touch during the whole test and he was, quite frankly, surprised at the engine's performance on both the client/server side. He was/is a very happy guy right now. 

    Sorry for the long response, I had more to say than I thought.

    Thanks all for comments, interest (even waning/waned), etc. I don't expect people just to take me/us at our word and we will be livestreaming some sessions before we go into Beta 1 so you will be able to judge the merit/truth (or not) in what I said here.

    And as usual, I won't comment on other devs, their habits, or their games. 


    Thanks for being candid as always, Mark. Unfortunately, I think you're simply another example of how transparent communication ends up hurting the developer. Luckily for you, you've established yourself as someone likable and someone who is open to difficult dialogue, so you've established a trust. Furthermore, you already have that cult following, so people are less likely to question you. I do appreciate that you acknowledge that there are both avoidable and unavoidable things that have caused your own delays. I think anything who is reasonable expects that there is no singular item which delays a project. 

    1) With regards to your first response, we know that as our estimates get shorter, they become more accurate. So given that you stated that a beta was weeks away about a year and a half ago, I'm only assuming that there were "holy fuck" moments that happened. So it would be reasonable to assuming that this could happen to anyone. 

    2) So you're not saying that you will NEVER close off refunds, correct? Just that you'll give 30 days notice before policy changes. That seems smart to me, but some seem to be putting stock in this never changing. 

    3/4) I definitely appreciate your ongoing commitment to the project and that you are accepting a lot of the funding responsibilities yourself. I suppose that at least means that the game will be the one YOU want to put out there. I'm sorry that it's over the budget you set. Hopefully that won't be problematic in getting this to a beta. 

    5) Yeah, I definitely think that being a nice guy earns you some amount of trust, which is warranted. Also, the fact that you made one of the greatest MMOs in history also earns you some level of credibility and trust. However, there are also those who rely entirely on those two facts as subjective evidence that one project is ok, while another is in trouble. Some seem unwilling or unable to accept the fact that maybe someone being an asshole doesn't mean they are being untruthful or disingenuous. It just means that they're an asshole. I've been on record as saying that the game industry was born of arrogant assholes and I think that's pretty accurate, without naming any specific names. 

    Either way, I'm sorry you've become somewhat of an example of how people are willing to accept delays in a certain context while not in others. I guess that's just a product of transparency. In reality, if it was a publisher-style level of communication then beyond the Kickstarter it's likely people wouldn't hear anything for 5 years after the KS closed. I do appreciate your transparency, though, and I will continue to advocate FOR transparency, and the irony isn't lost on me that I'm usually talking about how transparency doesn't work, but I really do yearn for the day when people CAN accept the realities of complex product development and ARE able to be objective and understanding with regards to how that cycle can and is derailed at times. Maybe it's a product of society that some people just can't trust what people say, but in the majority of cases it's much less exciting or "sexy" than what they like to believe. 

    SedrynTyrosJamesGoblinYashaX

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember RarePosts: 1,330
    So, if you folks don't mind me jumping in here, I'd just like to say a bunch of things:

    1) I am embarrassed, and I've said so many times (as you folks have noted) about the delays. Most of the causes were unavoidable, but not all of them were. For example, we had to open the studio in VA or there wouldn't have been a studio.

    2) Our refund policy is unchanged, and will remain unchanged until we give our current Backers 30 days notice of a change. We would never just close off refunds without giving all of our Backers a chance to ask for a refund.

    3) In terms of another key difference with CU/me, I and the other investor have a big stake in this. I've already committed more money to this game than I expected to because of the opening of the studio in Seattle and the delays. 

    4) We haven't done any addition fund-raising rounds, either through equity crowd-funding or telethons. The other investor and I are taking these expenses onto ourselves because we are late. There are other devs who have way more personal money than me and aren't doing the same. I also haven't paid myself, in any way, in four years other than my health insurance (I need to do this to be on the company's coverage).

    5) Whether I'm likable, a good guy, or the spawn of Satan, the choice is yours of course, but the one thing that I can say about myself is that as I promised here, there, and everywhere during the Kickstarter, that I would not disappear, hide, etc. from our mistakes and our Backers. I have kept that promise 100% as posts like this show. I'm constantly on our Forums, reply to personal emails (albeit slowly), here, MOP, and other sites occasionally. I apologize and explain delays, I give updates about everything that happens in the studio (subject to typical HR considerations/privacy considerations when somebody leaves/asked to leave).

    Now, does that merit additional leeway from people? I would like to think so, especially because of 2-4. We're not perfect, but we have treated our Backers the way I want to be treated as a backer of other KS games as well as a gamer myself. Delays happen in making games and even more so when you are trying to do something really difficult and then compound it by making our own engine that can handle large-scale battles. The good news is that over the last two weeks we showed our Backers that we could back up our words with something no other MMORPG has been able to do to date. While that doesn't earn me any additional consideration from non-Backers, the fact is that our little studio was able to do something that has eluded every MMORPG studio to date by showing 1K Bots (fully autonomous, bandwidth-eating, networked PC clients) & players all running around on the same map, in the same small area and using abilities while shooting off fireworks while still playable on a minimal spec machine. And, BTW, we had people calling in from Europe (we set the test time to be more advantageous to our European Backers), MENA and beyond, while our servers were in Virginia, and the game was extremely playable. One of our MENA (Middle East and North Africa) Backers and I were in touch during the whole test and he was, quite frankly, surprised at the engine's performance on both the client/server side. He was/is a very happy guy right now. 

    Sorry for the long response, I had more to say than I thought.

    Thanks all for comments, interest (even waning/waned), etc. I don't expect people just to take me/us at our word and we will be livestreaming some sessions before we go into Beta 1 so you will be able to judge the merit/truth (or not) in what I said here.

    And as usual, I won't comment on other devs, their habits, or their games. 
    You are the last man standing, and we will stand by you.
    Slapshot1188JamesGoblin
    Have you ever noticed that their stuff is shit and your shit is stuff?
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,895
    So, if you folks don't mind me jumping in here, I'd just like to say a bunch of things:

    1) I am embarrassed, and I've said so many times (as you folks have noted) about the delays. Most of the causes were unavoidable, but not all of them were. For example, we had to open the studio in VA or there wouldn't have been a studio.

    2) Our refund policy is unchanged, and will remain unchanged until we give our current Backers 30 days notice of a change. We would never just close off refunds without giving all of our Backers a chance to ask for a refund.

    3) In terms of another key difference with CU/me, I and the other investor have a big stake in this. I've already committed more money to this game than I expected to because of the opening of the studio in Seattle and the delays. 

    4) We haven't done any addition fund-raising rounds, either through equity crowd-funding or telethons. The other investor and I are taking these expenses onto ourselves because we are late. There are other devs who have way more personal money than me and aren't doing the same. I also haven't paid myself, in any way, in four years other than my health insurance (I need to do this to be on the company's coverage).

    5) Whether I'm likable, a good guy, or the spawn of Satan, the choice is yours of course, but the one thing that I can say about myself is that as I promised here, there, and everywhere during the Kickstarter, that I would not disappear, hide, etc. from our mistakes and our Backers. I have kept that promise 100% as posts like this show. I'm constantly on our Forums, reply to personal emails (albeit slowly), here, MOP, and other sites occasionally. I apologize and explain delays, I give updates about everything that happens in the studio (subject to typical HR considerations/privacy considerations when somebody leaves/asked to leave).

    Now, does that merit additional leeway from people? I would like to think so, especially because of 2-4. We're not perfect, but we have treated our Backers the way I want to be treated as a backer of other KS games as well as a gamer myself. Delays happen in making games and even more so when you are trying to do something really difficult and then compound it by making our own engine that can handle large-scale battles. The good news is that over the last two weeks we showed our Backers that we could back up our words with something no other MMORPG has been able to do to date. While that doesn't earn me any additional consideration from non-Backers, the fact is that our little studio was able to do something that has eluded every MMORPG studio to date by showing 1K Bots (fully autonomous, bandwidth-eating, networked PC clients) & players all running around on the same map, in the same small area and using abilities while shooting off fireworks while still playable on a minimal spec machine. And, BTW, we had people calling in from Europe (we set the test time to be more advantageous to our European Backers), MENA and beyond, while our servers were in Virginia, and the game was extremely playable. One of our MENA (Middle East and North Africa) Backers and I were in touch during the whole test and he was, quite frankly, surprised at the engine's performance on both the client/server side. He was/is a very happy guy right now. 

    Sorry for the long response, I had more to say than I thought.

    Thanks all for comments, interest (even waning/waned), etc. I don't expect people just to take me/us at our word and we will be livestreaming some sessions before we go into Beta 1 so you will be able to judge the merit/truth (or not) in what I said here.

    And as usual, I won't comment on other devs, their habits, or their games. 
    You are the last man standing, and we will stand by you.

    No pressure though...... lol
    ConstantineMerusKyleranJamesGoblin

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember RarePosts: 1,330
    CrazKanuk said:
    So, if you folks don't mind me jumping in here, I'd just like to say a bunch of things:

    1) I am embarrassed, and I've said so many times (as you folks have noted) about the delays. Most of the causes were unavoidable, but not all of them were. For example, we had to open the studio in VA or there wouldn't have been a studio.

    2) Our refund policy is unchanged, and will remain unchanged until we give our current Backers 30 days notice of a change. We would never just close off refunds without giving all of our Backers a chance to ask for a refund.

    3) In terms of another key difference with CU/me, I and the other investor have a big stake in this. I've already committed more money to this game than I expected to because of the opening of the studio in Seattle and the delays. 

    4) We haven't done any addition fund-raising rounds, either through equity crowd-funding or telethons. The other investor and I are taking these expenses onto ourselves because we are late. There are other devs who have way more personal money than me and aren't doing the same. I also haven't paid myself, in any way, in four years other than my health insurance (I need to do this to be on the company's coverage).

    5) Whether I'm likable, a good guy, or the spawn of Satan, the choice is yours of course, but the one thing that I can say about myself is that as I promised here, there, and everywhere during the Kickstarter, that I would not disappear, hide, etc. from our mistakes and our Backers. I have kept that promise 100% as posts like this show. I'm constantly on our Forums, reply to personal emails (albeit slowly), here, MOP, and other sites occasionally. I apologize and explain delays, I give updates about everything that happens in the studio (subject to typical HR considerations/privacy considerations when somebody leaves/asked to leave).

    Now, does that merit additional leeway from people? I would like to think so, especially because of 2-4. We're not perfect, but we have treated our Backers the way I want to be treated as a backer of other KS games as well as a gamer myself. Delays happen in making games and even more so when you are trying to do something really difficult and then compound it by making our own engine that can handle large-scale battles. The good news is that over the last two weeks we showed our Backers that we could back up our words with something no other MMORPG has been able to do to date. While that doesn't earn me any additional consideration from non-Backers, the fact is that our little studio was able to do something that has eluded every MMORPG studio to date by showing 1K Bots (fully autonomous, bandwidth-eating, networked PC clients) & players all running around on the same map, in the same small area and using abilities while shooting off fireworks while still playable on a minimal spec machine. And, BTW, we had people calling in from Europe (we set the test time to be more advantageous to our European Backers), MENA and beyond, while our servers were in Virginia, and the game was extremely playable. One of our MENA (Middle East and North Africa) Backers and I were in touch during the whole test and he was, quite frankly, surprised at the engine's performance on both the client/server side. He was/is a very happy guy right now. 

    Sorry for the long response, I had more to say than I thought.

    Thanks all for comments, interest (even waning/waned), etc. I don't expect people just to take me/us at our word and we will be livestreaming some sessions before we go into Beta 1 so you will be able to judge the merit/truth (or not) in what I said here.

    And as usual, I won't comment on other devs, their habits, or their games. 
    You are the last man standing, and we will stand by you.

    No pressure though...... lol
    Had to make an innocent gesture dirty, eh?
    JamesGoblinYashaX
    Have you ever noticed that their stuff is shit and your shit is stuff?
  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAMember RarePosts: 648
    edited August 14
    CK,

       No worries, you have nothing to be sorry about, I'm the guy who made the call, along with Andrew, to do this so whatever comes out of this project I have to own up to it. As to your points:

    >>>>1) With regards to your first response, we know that as our estimates get shorter, they become more accurate. So given that you stated that a beta was weeks away about a year and a half ago, I'm only assuming that there were "holy fuck" moments that happened. So it would be reasonable to assuming that this could happen to anyone. 
       Yep. That's why I have/will stay away from commenting about other developers' projects. :)

    >>>>2) So you're not saying that you will NEVER close off refunds, correct? Just that you'll give 30 days notice before policy changes. That seems smart to me, but some seem to be putting stock in this never changing. 
        Umm, I've said the same thing, going back to the Kickstarter. Nothing has changed. I said then that our plan was to offer refunds up to when either when we went LIVE or changed the policy with 30 days notice. I've also been saying the same things on our Forums and other places.

    >>>>3/4) I definitely appreciate your ongoing commitment to the project and that you are accepting a lot of the funding responsibilities yourself. I suppose that at least means that the game will be the one YOU want to put out there. I'm sorry that it's over the budget you set. Hopefully that won't be problematic in getting this to a beta. 
        Nope, not a problem with getting it into Beta 1 at all. If it was, I'd say that to our Backers. 

    >>>>5) Yeah, I definitely think that being a nice guy earns you some amount of trust, which is warranted. Also, the fact that you made one of the greatest MMOs in history also earns you some level of credibility and trust. However, there are also those who rely entirely on those two facts as subjective evidence that one project is ok, while another is in trouble. Some seem unwilling or unable to accept the fact that maybe someone being an asshole doesn't mean they are being untruthful or disingenuous. It just means that they're an asshole. I've been on record as saying that the game industry was born of arrogant assholes and I think that's pretty accurate, without naming any specific names. 
       I think that you are partially right but a lot of the truly old school guys/gals were really good people, especially on the developer, not publisher side. In terms of online games, most of the early folks were really great people as well. The guys at Kesmai Corp., for example, were really wonderful folks and even though our games were slightly competitive at times, they never acted like pricks to us. This was true for most, but not all, of the old school online guys. 

    >>>>Either way, I'm sorry you've become somewhat of an example of how people are willing to accept delays in a certain context while not in others. I guess that's just a product of transparency. In reality, if it was a publisher-style level of communication then beyond the Kickstarter it's likely people wouldn't hear anything for 5 years after the KS closed. I do appreciate your transparency, though, and I will continue to advocate FOR transparency, and the irony isn't lost on me that I'm usually talking about how transparency doesn't work, but I really do yearn for the day when people CAN accept the realities of complex product development and ARE able to be objective and understanding with regards to how that cycle can and is derailed at times. Maybe it's a product of society that some people just can't trust what people say, but in the majority of cases it's much less exciting or "sexy" than what they like to believe. 
        Yep. I think that a lot of mistrust has been built up between developers <> gamers <> publishers and that really colors things. Plus, the usual stuff about anonymous posters on the Internet being able to act in a way they wouldn't in real life; developers covering their asses, publishers being publishers. It's been a problem ever since people were dialing up to play games and always will be, even if the protection of anonymity was lifted. People bitched about it in the 80s and are still bitching about it now. In other words, rinse, wash, and repeat. :)

    Thanks again for posting/engaging/etc. 

    -Mark

    Post edited by MarkJacobs on
    JamesGoblin

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAMember RarePosts: 648
    So, if you folks don't mind me jumping in here, I'd just like to say a bunch of things:

    1) I am embarrassed, and I've said so many times (as you folks have noted) about the delays. Most of the causes were unavoidable, but not all of them were. For example, we had to open the studio in VA or there wouldn't have been a studio.

    2) Our refund policy is unchanged, and will remain unchanged until we give our current Backers 30 days notice of a change. We would never just close off refunds without giving all of our Backers a chance to ask for a refund.

    3) In terms of another key difference with CU/me, I and the other investor have a big stake in this. I've already committed more money to this game than I expected to because of the opening of the studio in Seattle and the delays. 

    4) We haven't done any addition fund-raising rounds, either through equity crowd-funding or telethons. The other investor and I are taking these expenses onto ourselves because we are late. There are other devs who have way more personal money than me and aren't doing the same. I also haven't paid myself, in any way, in four years other than my health insurance (I need to do this to be on the company's coverage).

    5) Whether I'm likable, a good guy, or the spawn of Satan, the choice is yours of course, but the one thing that I can say about myself is that as I promised here, there, and everywhere during the Kickstarter, that I would not disappear, hide, etc. from our mistakes and our Backers. I have kept that promise 100% as posts like this show. I'm constantly on our Forums, reply to personal emails (albeit slowly), here, MOP, and other sites occasionally. I apologize and explain delays, I give updates about everything that happens in the studio (subject to typical HR considerations/privacy considerations when somebody leaves/asked to leave).

    Now, does that merit additional leeway from people? I would like to think so, especially because of 2-4. We're not perfect, but we have treated our Backers the way I want to be treated as a backer of other KS games as well as a gamer myself. Delays happen in making games and even more so when you are trying to do something really difficult and then compound it by making our own engine that can handle large-scale battles. The good news is that over the last two weeks we showed our Backers that we could back up our words with something no other MMORPG has been able to do to date. While that doesn't earn me any additional consideration from non-Backers, the fact is that our little studio was able to do something that has eluded every MMORPG studio to date by showing 1K Bots (fully autonomous, bandwidth-eating, networked PC clients) & players all running around on the same map, in the same small area and using abilities while shooting off fireworks while still playable on a minimal spec machine. And, BTW, we had people calling in from Europe (we set the test time to be more advantageous to our European Backers), MENA and beyond, while our servers were in Virginia, and the game was extremely playable. One of our MENA (Middle East and North Africa) Backers and I were in touch during the whole test and he was, quite frankly, surprised at the engine's performance on both the client/server side. He was/is a very happy guy right now. 

    Sorry for the long response, I had more to say than I thought.

    Thanks all for comments, interest (even waning/waned), etc. I don't expect people just to take me/us at our word and we will be livestreaming some sessions before we go into Beta 1 so you will be able to judge the merit/truth (or not) in what I said here.

    And as usual, I won't comment on other devs, their habits, or their games. 
    You are the last man standing, and we will stand by you.
    Thanks. And as I've said from the beginning, I can't promise we'll make the greatest game ever, but I did/do promise that we would be true to our Backers and the vision we laid out for them when they backed our game. It has been a long road but as our KS pitch shows, we haven't changed/folded/cut features/mutilated it at all.  Not many KS developers can say that and I'm proud of that.
    CrazKanuk said:
    <snip> 
    You are the last man standing, and we will stand by you.

    No pressure though...... lol
    Hehe, none at all! 

    Now where did I put that damn Prince Valium? :)
    ConstantineMerusJamesGoblin

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONMember EpicPosts: 5,895
    CK,

       No worries, you have nothing to be sorry about, I'm the guy who made the call, along with Andrew, to do this so whatever comes out of this project I have to own up to it. As to your points:

    >>>>1) With regards to your first response, we know that as our estimates get shorter, they become more accurate. So given that you stated that a beta was weeks away about a year and a half ago, I'm only assuming that there were "holy fuck" moments that happened. So it would be reasonable to assuming that this could happen to anyone. 
       Yep. That's why I have/will stay away from commenting about other developers' projects. :)

    >>>>2) So you're not saying that you will NEVER close off refunds, correct? Just that you'll give 30 days notice before policy changes. That seems smart to me, but some seem to be putting stock in this never changing. 
        Umm, I've said the same thing, going back to the Kickstarter. Nothing has changed. I said then that our plan was to offer refunds up to when either when we went LIVE or changed the policy with 30 days notice. I've also been saying the same things on our Forums and other places.

    >>>>3/4) I definitely appreciate your ongoing commitment to the project and that you are accepting a lot of the funding responsibilities yourself. I suppose that at least means that the game will be the one YOU want to put out there. I'm sorry that it's over the budget you set. Hopefully that won't be problematic in getting this to a beta. 
        Nope, not a problem with getting it into Beta 1 at all. If it was, I'd say that to our Backers. 

    >>>>5) Yeah, I definitely think that being a nice guy earns you some amount of trust, which is warranted. Also, the fact that you made one of the greatest MMOs in history also earns you some level of credibility and trust. However, there are also those who rely entirely on those two facts as subjective evidence that one project is ok, while another is in trouble. Some seem unwilling or unable to accept the fact that maybe someone being an asshole doesn't mean they are being untruthful or disingenuous. It just means that they're an asshole. I've been on record as saying that the game industry was born of arrogant assholes and I think that's pretty accurate, without naming any specific names. 
       I think that you are partially right but a lot of the truly old school guys/gals were really good people, especially on the developer, not publisher side. In terms of online games, most of the early folks were really great people as well. The guys at Kesmai Corp., for example, were really wonderful folks and even though our games were slightly competitive at times, they never acted like pricks to us. This was true for most, but not all, of the old school online guys. 

    >>>>Either way, I'm sorry you've become somewhat of an example of how people are willing to accept delays in a certain context while not in others. I guess that's just a product of transparency. In reality, if it was a publisher-style level of communication then beyond the Kickstarter it's likely people wouldn't hear anything for 5 years after the KS closed. I do appreciate your transparency, though, and I will continue to advocate FOR transparency, and the irony isn't lost on me that I'm usually talking about how transparency doesn't work, but I really do yearn for the day when people CAN accept the realities of complex product development and ARE able to be objective and understanding with regards to how that cycle can and is derailed at times. Maybe it's a product of society that some people just can't trust what people say, but in the majority of cases it's much less exciting or "sexy" than what they like to believe. 
        Yep. I think that a lot of mistrust has been built up between developers <> gamers <> publishers and that really colors things. Plus, the usual stuff about anonymous posters on the Internet being able to act in a way they wouldn't in real life; developers covering their asses, publishers being publishers. It's been a problem ever since people were dialing up to play games and always will be, even if the protection of anonymity was lifted. People bitched about it in the 80s and are still bitching about it now. In other words, rinse, wash, and repeat. :)

    Thanks again for posting/engaging/etc. 

    -Mark

    Lol @ dialing up! Whenever I hear that term it reminds me to punch my kids in the throat every time they complain about a 10Mbps connection. 


    meddyckJamesGoblinRnjypsy

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAMember RarePosts: 648
    CrazKanuk said:
    CK,

       No worries, you have nothing to be sorry about, I'm the guy who made the call, along with Andrew, to do this so whatever comes out of this project I have to own up to it. As to your points:

    >>>>1) With regards to your first response, we know that as our estimates get shorter, they become more accurate. So given that you stated that a beta was weeks away about a year and a half ago, I'm only assuming that there were "holy fuck" moments that happened. So it would be reasonable to assuming that this could happen to anyone. 
       Yep. That's why I have/will stay away from commenting about other developers' projects. :)

    >>>>2) So you're not saying that you will NEVER close off refunds, correct? Just that you'll give 30 days notice before policy changes. That seems smart to me, but some seem to be putting stock in this never changing. 
        Umm, I've said the same thing, going back to the Kickstarter. Nothing has changed. I said then that our plan was to offer refunds up to when either when we went LIVE or changed the policy with 30 days notice. I've also been saying the same things on our Forums and other places.

    >>>>3/4) I definitely appreciate your ongoing commitment to the project and that you are accepting a lot of the funding responsibilities yourself. I suppose that at least means that the game will be the one YOU want to put out there. I'm sorry that it's over the budget you set. Hopefully that won't be problematic in getting this to a beta. 
        Nope, not a problem with getting it into Beta 1 at all. If it was, I'd say that to our Backers. 

    >>>>5) Yeah, I definitely think that being a nice guy earns you some amount of trust, which is warranted. Also, the fact that you made one of the greatest MMOs in history also earns you some level of credibility and trust. However, there are also those who rely entirely on those two facts as subjective evidence that one project is ok, while another is in trouble. Some seem unwilling or unable to accept the fact that maybe someone being an asshole doesn't mean they are being untruthful or disingenuous. It just means that they're an asshole. I've been on record as saying that the game industry was born of arrogant assholes and I think that's pretty accurate, without naming any specific names. 
       I think that you are partially right but a lot of the truly old school guys/gals were really good people, especially on the developer, not publisher side. In terms of online games, most of the early folks were really great people as well. The guys at Kesmai Corp., for example, were really wonderful folks and even though our games were slightly competitive at times, they never acted like pricks to us. This was true for most, but not all, of the old school online guys. 

    >>>>Either way, I'm sorry you've become somewhat of an example of how people are willing to accept delays in a certain context while not in others. I guess that's just a product of transparency. In reality, if it was a publisher-style level of communication then beyond the Kickstarter it's likely people wouldn't hear anything for 5 years after the KS closed. I do appreciate your transparency, though, and I will continue to advocate FOR transparency, and the irony isn't lost on me that I'm usually talking about how transparency doesn't work, but I really do yearn for the day when people CAN accept the realities of complex product development and ARE able to be objective and understanding with regards to how that cycle can and is derailed at times. Maybe it's a product of society that some people just can't trust what people say, but in the majority of cases it's much less exciting or "sexy" than what they like to believe. 
        Yep. I think that a lot of mistrust has been built up between developers <> gamers <> publishers and that really colors things. Plus, the usual stuff about anonymous posters on the Internet being able to act in a way they wouldn't in real life; developers covering their asses, publishers being publishers. It's been a problem ever since people were dialing up to play games and always will be, even if the protection of anonymity was lifted. People bitched about it in the 80s and are still bitching about it now. In other words, rinse, wash, and repeat. :)

    Thanks again for posting/engaging/etc. 

    -Mark

    Lol @ dialing up! Whenever I hear that term it reminds me to punch my kids in the throat every time they complain about a 10Mbps connection. 


    Nah, don't do that. Get a rocking chair, a shawl and start a conversation with:

    "Back in my day..."

    Kids love that!!! :)
    CrazKanukmeddyckcameltosisJamesGoblinRnjypsy

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAMember RarePosts: 648
    Thanks Mark!
    You had me at #1.  To each their own,  but to me that type of response is exactly what I'm looking for when things go wrong.  Combine that with #2 and that sets you apart from other crowdfunded MMORPG.  
    Thanks, I really appreciate the kind words and support. I/we will never be perfect, but as a team we're working our asses off to deliver a game that will make our Backers proud that they were Backers. We know we won't please everyone, but almost nobody (there's always some) will be able to say that we didn't go above and beyond the rest of the pack.

    The next few months are going to be as interesting as hell for our Backers. Starting with a section by section release of the 30 Day document, Big Bot Battles, and other stuff, I have no doubt that will demonstrate just how serious we are about what I've said above.

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABMember RarePosts: 2,593
    Little bit surreal watching Mark on the livestream at his office posting live on mmorpg.com. ;)
    Slapshot1188KyleranConstantineMerusJamesGoblin

    You stay sassy!

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAMember RarePosts: 648
    Tamanous said:
    Little bit surreal watching Mark on the livestream at his office posting live on mmorpg.com. ;)
    Yep, especially while I pay refunds, post on our Forums, and otherwise multi-task like crazy. :)
    JamesGoblin

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,864
    I look forward to the day when the game has long since launched and we can all look back and say the wait was well worth it.

    In the meantine I'll still likely be critical until you can publish and hit dates with some degree of accuracy....what can I say, my boss does the same to me.   ;)

    Not looking for a refund though, appeciate your policy but I gave my pledge as a donation in good faith and am not concerned about getting it back, no matter how it all turns out in the end.
    ConstantineMerusJamesGoblin

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus LondonMember RarePosts: 1,330
    edited August 15
    Kyleran said:
    I look forward to the day when the game has long since launched and we can all look back and say the wait was well worth it.

    In the meantine I'll still likely be critical until you can publish and hit dates with some degree of accuracy....what can I say, my boss does the same to me.   ;)

    Not looking for a refund though, appeciate your policy but I gave my pledge as a donation in good faith and am not concerned about getting it back, no matter how it all turns out in the end.
    This is a healthy approach towards crowdfunded titles that one has supported. Some people forget that supporting a game isn't just about cheers and hurrays--which can easily turns into forum hooliganism--but also constructive criticism, voicing disappointments and concerns, insightful suggestions and so on. One must remember that independent developers need this more than AAA ones because they cannot invest much on surveys, market analysis, research, etc. 

    It's nice to have the man in charge of the project to come here and take responsibility instead of getting all defensive, address the issues instead of denying them, spread the love rather than name calling. 

    This sort of behavior--both @MarkJacobs and us--would not only affect this title to gain the higher planes but the whole genre as well.

    To better days lads and lassies!!
    Post edited by ConstantineMerus on
    JamesGoblin
    Have you ever noticed that their stuff is shit and your shit is stuff?
  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAMember RarePosts: 648
    Kyleran said:
    I look forward to the day when the game has long since launched and we can all look back and say the wait was well worth it.

    In the meantine I'll still likely be critical until you can publish and hit dates with some degree of accuracy....what can I say, my boss does the same to me.   ;)

    Not looking for a refund though, appeciate your policy but I gave my pledge as a donation in good faith and am not concerned about getting it back, no matter how it all turns out in the end.
    Thanks, I appreciate your and other Backers' patience. As to being critical, I have no problem with that. We're late, we deserve criticism and I have no problem with as long as it is not mean-spirited, nasty, honest, etc. It's only when people start pulling out the "scam" card or lying about stuff that I will ignore/walk away. Until we deliver the game, I expect people to be skeptical and as you might know, I say the same thing here, there, and everywhere - Don't donate to any Kickstarter, including ours, unless you do your research, are comfortable with the risk, etc. And never spend more than you can afford to lose because the risk is real, even with us.

    It is the right of all of us to be skeptical as long as we're not jerks about it unless the developers are also acting like jerks, in which case, have at them. That's another reason I don't mind when some snark is thrown our way, I/we have earned it. :)

    Thanks again Kyleran!
    Kyleran said:
    I look forward to the day when the game has long since launched and we can all look back and say the wait was well worth it.

    In the meantine I'll still likely be critical until you can publish and hit dates with some degree of accuracy....what can I say, my boss does the same to me.   ;)

    Not looking for a refund though, appeciate your policy but I gave my pledge as a donation in good faith and am not concerned about getting it back, no matter how it all turns out in the end.
    This is a healthy approach towards crowdfunded titles that one has supported. Some people forget that supporting a game isn't just about cheers and hurrays--which can easily turns into forum hooliganism--but also constructive criticism, voicing disappointments and concerns, insightful suggestions and so on. One must remember that independent developers need this more than AAA ones because they cannot invest much on surveys, market analysis, research, etc. 

    It's nice to have the man in charge of the project to come here and take responsibility instead of getting all defensive, address the issues instead of denying them, spread the love rather than name calling. 

    This sort of behavior--both @MarkJacobs and us--would not only affect this title to gain the higher planes but the whole genre as well.

    To better days lads and lassies!!
    +1, QFT, etc. I've always been a fan of this bit from the original Planet of the Apes, I think it is very much on point:


    Taylor: “That's the spirit, keep 'em flying.”
    Lucius: “What?”
    Taylor: “The flags of discontent."

    I've always encouraged people to speak their minds whether on places like this or our Forums, it's even enshrined in our ToS. All I ask, since forever, is that they do so in a constructive manner and to stay away from beating on expired equines and acting in an overly emo manner. Bonus points for those that can do that and offer suggestions on improving the problems/issuing.

    Thanks for the kind words. 

    Back to work on the 30 day doc I go!

    ConstantineMerusJamesGoblin

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • MendelMendel Marietta, GAMember RarePosts: 1,872
    Soon...ish

    Ah.  Someone else who thinks in geologic time.  I agree.  Soonish.
    JamesGoblin

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • MarkJacobsMarkJacobs CEO City State Entertainment Fairfax, VAMember RarePosts: 648
    edited August 15
    FYI, we should have Part I of the document up shortly on our website and Forums. It is also publicly available to anybody who wants to look at it. 

    As you'll see from the document, it is only Part I and just includes the first six sections of the document. We have about 20 more sections to go, including the far more juicy parts. 

    English-language document - http://camelotunchained.com/v3/beta-1/

    German-language document - http://camelotunchained.com/de_v3/beta-1/

    Front page support soonish! :)
    Post edited by MarkJacobs on
    ConstantineMerusKyleranJamesGoblin

    Mark Jacobs
    CEO, City State Entertainment

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAMember UncommonPosts: 2,214
    I would advise the devs to use beta not just for feedback on bugs, but feedback on general design, and to be open to re-design.

    I still do not see how a PVP only game can hold interest for long, and it certainly will not draw in much of the PVE crowd.  

    Some of the finest moments of DAOC were the PVE ones.  Having both PVE and PVP gave players options.  But, just RVR PVP sounds like a zergfest fast heading to a snooze-fest.  Really, how long can a player run around "playing tag" in an RVR setting without this getting old, real fast?
    vito11JamesGoblin
  • KyleranKyleran Paradise City, FLMember LegendaryPosts: 26,864
    I would advise the devs to use beta not just for feedback on bugs, but feedback on general design, and to be open to re-design.

    I still do not see how a PVP only game can hold interest for long, and it certainly will not draw in much of the PVE crowd.  

    Some of the finest moments of DAOC were the PVE ones.  Having both PVE and PVP gave players options.  But, just RVR PVP sounds like a zergfest fast heading to a snooze-fest.  Really, how long can a player run around "playing tag" in an RVR setting without this getting old, real fast?
    Probably as long as people play LOL, Dota or Overwatch.

    Some people just enjoy that sort of thing.
    GdemamiJamesGoblin

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    On hiatus from EVE Online since Dec 2016 - CCP continues to wander aimlessly

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon




  • meddyckmeddyck USAMember UncommonPosts: 1,223
    If you don't understand why somebody would want to play an RvR only game for years, then CU probably isn't for you. Many CU backers also can't understand why anyone would want to play a PvE heavy game for years. News flash: different players have different preferences and like different types of games.

    Fortunately there were more than enough players who did find the idea of an RvR only game appealing that CU funded. And if it actually is a good RvR only game at launch, then it won't have any trouble keeping enough of those players subscribing to remain open for years too.
    vito11JamesGoblincameltosis

    Camelot Unchained Backer
    DAOC [retired]: R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R5 Healer

  • vito11vito11 Williamsburg, VAMember UncommonPosts: 34
    edited September 6
     Was it a mistake to make the company's home state Virginia? Yes, but at least they've remedied that now. I don't feel like 5 years to write the game from nothing is that bad if they are offering something the rest of the market still can't. As far as I'm aware according to recent tests that is still the case. 

     If I had to personally guess, I think beta will be sometime around November/December with a launch near Summer 2018.  That's assuming there's no more issues that come up after new visual effects are added. 

     I understand people being upset they can't play it yet, but good things take time. At least with CU there's a legit reason for it taking longer than an Unreal Engine mod. 





    Post edited by vito11 on
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