I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed. MMORPGs, and indeed all subgenres of RPGs, are going to continue to utilize vertical progression for the foreseeable future.
I'll content myself with the fact the highest budget MMO currently in development has no levels and I own a 400$ life-time-insured ship. It's all cool though, I've made more selling ships in that game than I have invested in ships I haven't flipped so if it goes under tomorrow, no major loss.
So which non-pay-to-win MMO are you waiting on?
And... Yet. There will still be vertical progression utilized throughout the majority of the games in the genre, including singleplayer, multiplayer, and MMORPGs. You've got one MMORPG in development that is attempting to distance itself from vertical progression completely, and it's the direction the entire RPG industry is headed. Hope you don't mind if I don't take your word for it.
I don't need to "wait" on one. You're, again, using a straw man. It was amusing at first, but it's becoming boring now.
If you don't care about the directions MMOs are headed why are you even arguing with me? I certainly do not care about a Vanilla WoW EMU an ancient game with a sequel due within the next year.
My argument is it would be beyond idiocy to release a game which has neither a level playing field nor has the people on top paying the majority of the bills in 2017.
So if you are content on your WoW EMU what are we even debating? Just keep playing your 13 year old game.
If you don't care about the directions MMOs are headed why are you even arguing with me? I certainly do not care about a Vanilla WoW EMU an ancient game with a sequel due within the next year.
My argument is it would be beyond idiocy to release a game which has neither a level playing field nor has the people on top paying the majority of the bills in 2017.
So if you are content on your WoW EMU what are we even debating? Just keep playing your 13 year old game.
This back and forth between you and I started when you attempted to equate time and money as resources.
It then progressed onto the fact that you feel like RPGs shouldn't use itemization or vertical stat progression because it creates power gaps in content and between other players (but, ironically enough, you only cared about these things when you had to compare yourself to others in the same game world with you). You then tried to cite the popularity of microtransactions and horizontal progression as proof that time does equal money in terms of resources, because whales exist and developers have found they can make money off of those whales. How that proved your argument, I still don't know.
From there, you attempted to prove that you were right by implying I was hiding something about the games I play, as if what games I play also proved your argument. Once I responded with the games I play, you made a sarcastic remark implying that I enjoy a niche market that isn't very popular (which is cool with me, 6000+ every night of the week is more than enough massiveness for me), as if that somehow proved that time does, in fact, equal money both in nature and in distribution among the population. And now... We're here.
I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed. MMORPGs, and indeed all subgenres of RPGs, are going to continue to utilize vertical progression for the foreseeable future.
I'll content myself with the fact the highest budget MMO currently in development has no levels and I own a 400$ life-time-insured ship as well as ship that was worth 125$, and 80$ ship and a 40$ ground vehicle (All LTI as well). It's all cool though, I've made more selling ships in that game than I have invested in ships I haven't flipped so if it goes under tomorrow, no major loss.
So which non-pay-to-win MMO are you waiting on?
Camelot Unchained?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
That may be the most on point LOL Gdemami has ever given.
I never "tried to cite the popularity of microtransactions and horizontal progression as proof that time does equal money in terms of resources." I simply used to illustrate it doesn't matter how you feel about the subject pay to win vs. play to win because your feelings have no affect on anything or anyone of any importance.
The reason you are wrong in the rest of your argument simply boils down to the fact you apparently can't comprehend the difference between working your butt of to excel at a sport, art etc. and doing braindead level easy content until the game makes you stronger.
You can bypass effort with time or you can bypass effort with cash. Either way, you're bypassing effort to get a reward instead of skillbased games and real life where excellence takes effort and you can't just buy or grind your way past the need for that.
Your whole apparently Marxist outlook on life and anger that mommy and daddy didn't teach you fiscal responsibility or instill any drive and you isn't an argument I care much about. You can have that one with Gdemami.
No, my initial response to you had to do with equating the two. You literally at one point said "Time = money" when you quoted my first response to you that started this entire argument. Your post literally began with "Same general principle really."
You only pivoted to citing the popularity of microtransactions later.
No, my initial response to you had to do with equating the two. You literally at one point said "Time = money" when you quoted my first response to you that started this entire argument. Your post literally began with "Same general principle really."
You only pivoted to citing the popularity of microtransactions later.
When it became clear that nothing is going to convince you there is a difference between vegging out as you grind in vanilla WoW and the level of effort and dedication it takes to master a sport or instrument.
I pivoted to basically saying "There is no convincing you, but it doesn't matter anyway, because the argument has already been lost." It's not that my arguments weren't sound or that you've made even a single good point in this entire topic, it's my arguments are flying over your head and I'm tired of beating my head against a brick wall.
You're never going to get what I'm saying because you are intent on trying to justify your addiction. I get that.
And yes time does = money. You can go back and read the post you pulled the quote from if you care to broaden your understanding. I'm not going to re-explain things I already laid out to you.
No, my initial response to you had to do with equating the two. You literally at one point said "Time = money" when you quoted my first response to you that started this entire argument. Your post literally began with "Same general principle really."
You only pivoted to citing the popularity of microtransactions later.
When it became clear that nothing is going to convince you there is a difference between vegging out as you grind in vanilla WoW and the level of effort and dedication it takes to master a sport or instrument.
I pivoted to basically saying "There is no convincing you, but it doesn't matter anyway, because the argument has already been lost." It's not that my arguments weren't sound or that you've made even a single good point in this entire topic, it's my arguments are flying over your head and I'm tired of beating my head against a brick wall.
You're never going to get what I'm saying because you are intent on trying to justify your addiction. I get that.
And yes time does = money. You can go back and read the post you pulled the quote from if you care to broaden your understanding. I'm not going to re-explain things I already laid out to you.
No, you're wrong, and again the reasoning has been explained to you ad nauseum.
You pivoted to appealing to popularity to try to undermine my argument using the popularity of microtransactions. But since my argument had nothing to do with popularity, that failed too.
What addiction? Are you really so willfully ignorant as to have completely ignored my posts? I'm a casual MMORPG player who sees the objective difference between time and money; you're a whale who wants to protect your ability to buy in-game power by justifying it through fallacious arguments, of which I've also pointed out to you.
You pivoted because your argument was a fail and you were reaching for a way to undercut me, as opposed to my argument. That's where you started including "no lifer" and "basement dweller" comments in your post. Ooh, so clever!
He is right however, time does in fact, equal money. At least in my opinion.
I won't get into the greater discussion, but there are several points of view in the real world on this topic. People with money tend to be looking for ways to make more, ergo they consider their time to be valuable. People that want money, generally fall into this category as well.
Then there are people that do not care about money and are happy to just get by. I won't go any further into specifics, but this generalization is good enough for the argument at hand.
Trying to translate this as a resource in a game is also an age old discussion. I have been told (on more than one occasion) that giving away resources is giving away money. Since I do not gauge my enjoyment on the accumulation of wealth in a game, I choose to give my resources away to people that want them. I do not, however, do this irl.
Basically, the above example is to say: it's far too subjective to say definitively that time = money translates into a tangible resource in a game. For some, it is, for others it is not.
Essentially you guys have been trying to convince each other that your point of view is the only correct one, and you are both wrong, and right. It all comes down to opinion.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Tuor7 said: But to get to your actual point: changing "time" to "money" ignores what was just recently said: everyone has the same amount of time, and everyone *does not* have the same amount of money.
...and where do you think those money come from?
They don't just happen, appear from nowhere, they represent time and effort we spent earning them.
Our current president had I think it was a 100 million dollar seed money from his daddy
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Tuor7 said: But to get to your actual point: changing "time" to "money" ignores what was just recently said: everyone has the same amount of time, and everyone *does not* have the same amount of money.
...and where do you think those money come from?
They don't just happen, appear from nowhere, they represent time and effort we spent earning them.
Our current president had I think it was a 100 million dollar seed money from his daddy
That would certainly buy a lot of lifetime-insured ships... A whole armada. But I guess we're somehow to believe, based on Gdemami's argument, that he earned that over the course of the 9 months in the womb?
I love me some Casinos. If an MMO had a blackjack table, I'd never go adventuring, except to get more gold for...you guessed it. The Blackjack table!
Back in the old Phantasy Star Universe they had an area that was a roulette table. I spent many many nights just hanging out at the roulette wheel with my friends. Granted it didn't use real money, but it was still tons of fun.
I love me some Casinos. If an MMO had a blackjack table, I'd never go adventuring, except to get more gold for...you guessed it. The Blackjack table!
Back in the old Phantasy Star Universe they had an area that was a roulette table. I spent many many nights just hanging out at the roulette wheel with my friends. Granted it didn't use real money, but it was still tons of fun.
clearly different people have radically different gaming interests.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I love me some Casinos. If an MMO had a blackjack table, I'd never go adventuring, except to get more gold for...you guessed it. The Blackjack table!
Back in the old Phantasy Star Universe they had an area that was a roulette table. I spent many many nights just hanging out at the roulette wheel with my friends. Granted it didn't use real money, but it was still tons of fun.
clearly different people have radically different gaming interests.
Agreed
i dunno why that was in italics.
But the best part was that it didn't cost a thing. They've also had types of gambling in other games too, but that isn't really the type of gambling I meant in the original post. Most of those cases only utilized in game currencies that couldn't be purchased with real money or traded.
I love me some Casinos. If an MMO had a blackjack table, I'd never go adventuring, except to get more gold for...you guessed it. The Blackjack table!
Back in the old Phantasy Star Universe they had an area that was a roulette table. I spent many many nights just hanging out at the roulette wheel with my friends. Granted it didn't use real money, but it was still tons of fun.
clearly different people have radically different gaming interests.
Agreed
i dunno why that was in italics.
But the best part was that it didn't cost a thing. They've also had types of gambling in other games too, but that isn't really the type of gambling I meant in the original post. Most of those cases only utilized in game currencies that couldn't be purchased with real money or traded.
I think your gaming style is likely the core reason why many of the games I like seem to you to be bad. I have a theory as to why that is but its sensitive
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Tuor7 said: But to get to your actual point: changing "time" to "money" ignores what was just recently said: everyone has the same amount of time, and everyone *does not* have the same amount of money.
...and where do you think those money come from?
They don't just happen, appear from nowhere, they represent time and effort we spent earning them.
Our current president had I think it was a 100 million dollar seed money from his daddy
That would certainly buy a lot of lifetime-insured ships... A whole armada. But I guess we're somehow to believe, based on Gdemami's argument, that he earned that over the course of the 9 months in the womb?
I don't think your argument is wrong... necessarily...
I mean sure there are people that start with more money when they're born then most of the population would ever see in a lifetime.
I don't like the time ='s money equation for other reasons.
Time ='s money at an earnings pace per hour (in many cases) if people want to get technical considering their jobs. But that is considered time you're working. Salaried employees would consider that differently, as I'm salaried so, even when I'm not working I make the same amount of money, or.. actually the less I work the more I would technically "make" if you only count time working as an indicator of time equaling money.
But the premise of time equaling money in games is a different story. Unless you're a youtuber, where streaming a game earns you money, that time you spend doesn't equate to money. When you consider games that charge 15 dollars a month for game access, and consider a bosses RNG to be the same as loot box gambling, that's an incorrect assessment of my original post, and not correct when depicting your game-time equaling money.
I agree that time CAN equal money, at an earnings pace in most cases. It doesn't always equal money obviously. When you factor in game-time and entertainment, or just other activities, it makes no sense to see those situations as money-losing scenarios. If I eat a sandwich for 15 minutes does that mean I have just lost 20 dollars of money-producing time?
I love me some Casinos. If an MMO had a blackjack table, I'd never go adventuring, except to get more gold for...you guessed it. The Blackjack table!
Back in the old Phantasy Star Universe they had an area that was a roulette table. I spent many many nights just hanging out at the roulette wheel with my friends. Granted it didn't use real money, but it was still tons of fun.
clearly different people have radically different gaming interests.
Agreed
i dunno why that was in italics.
But the best part was that it didn't cost a thing. They've also had types of gambling in other games too, but that isn't really the type of gambling I meant in the original post. Most of those cases only utilized in game currencies that couldn't be purchased with real money or traded.
I think your gaming style is likely the core reason why many of the games I like seem to you to be bad. I have a theory as to why that is but its sensitive
I'm pretty sure there are a whole host of reasons the games you like seem bad to me.
I love me some Casinos. If an MMO had a blackjack table, I'd never go adventuring, except to get more gold for...you guessed it. The Blackjack table!
Back in the old Phantasy Star Universe they had an area that was a roulette table. I spent many many nights just hanging out at the roulette wheel with my friends. Granted it didn't use real money, but it was still tons of fun.
clearly different people have radically different gaming interests.
Agreed
i dunno why that was in italics.
But the best part was that it didn't cost a thing. They've also had types of gambling in other games too, but that isn't really the type of gambling I meant in the original post. Most of those cases only utilized in game currencies that couldn't be purchased with real money or traded.
I think your gaming style is likely the core reason why many of the games I like seem to you to be bad. I have a theory as to why that is but its sensitive
I'm pretty sure there are a whole host of reasons the games you like seem bad to me.
casual insults aside, I think there is really only 2 but I am not getting into it
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
He is right however, time does in fact, equal money. At least in my opinion.
I won't get into the greater discussion, but there are several points of view in the real world on this topic. People with money tend to be looking for ways to make more, ergo they consider their time to be valuable. People that want money, generally fall into this category as well.
Then there are people that do not care about money and are happy to just get by. I won't go any further into specifics, but this generalization is good enough for the argument at hand.
Trying to translate this as a resource in a game is also an age old discussion. I have been told (on more than one occasion) that giving away resources is giving away money. Since I do not gauge my enjoyment on the accumulation of wealth in a game, I choose to give my resources away to people that want them. I do not, however, do this irl.
Basically, the above example is to say: it's far too subjective to say definitively that time = money translates into a tangible resource in a game. For some, it is, for others it is not.
Essentially you guys have been trying to convince each other that your point of view is the only correct one, and you are both wrong, and right. It all comes down to opinion.
I will certainly agree that in a business sense, the saying "Time equals money" has a lot of truth to it. That's because most business people/merchants are focused on making money. That's their goal. So, in order to achieve that goal, they valuate their time based on how much money they're making. If they're *not* making any money (or not much) compared to doing some other activity with that time, then they likely consider that time either wasted or poorly utilized. Why watch a football game if they could be closing a deal that'll make them a fat wad of cash? The whole thing is, as I said, based on achieving an overall goal: making money.
But, what if making money wasn't your main goal? In that case, for that person, time *does not* equal money.
People value many things, some more than others. Some people pursue the things that matter to them more single-mindedly than others. Generally, the more single-minded you are in pursuing a goal, the more focused you are on spending as much time as possible pursuing it, and the more you resent any barriers to achieving it. And if your goal is to become as powerful as possible in an MMORPG, then any barriers, including time, that get in your way will be a source of annoyance that needs to be overcome. Some people will use money to do that, and some games will provide means to accommodate that method.
At any rate, I don't know if my way of looking at things is the "only correct way", but it *is* the way I look at it, and it works for me.
I love me some Casinos. If an MMO had a blackjack table, I'd never go adventuring, except to get more gold for...you guessed it. The Blackjack table!
Back in the old Phantasy Star Universe they had an area that was a roulette table. I spent many many nights just hanging out at the roulette wheel with my friends. Granted it didn't use real money, but it was still tons of fun.
clearly different people have radically different gaming interests.
Agreed
i dunno why that was in italics.
But the best part was that it didn't cost a thing. They've also had types of gambling in other games too, but that isn't really the type of gambling I meant in the original post. Most of those cases only utilized in game currencies that couldn't be purchased with real money or traded.
I think your gaming style is likely the core reason why many of the games I like seem to you to be bad. I have a theory as to why that is but its sensitive
I'm pretty sure there are a whole host of reasons the games you like seem bad to me.
casual insults aside, I think there is really only 2 but I am not getting into it
I didn't mean it to be an insult to you at all, but I'm pretty sure there will be more than 2 reasons.
Comments
I don't need to "wait" on one. You're, again, using a straw man. It was amusing at first, but it's becoming boring now.
My argument is it would be beyond idiocy to release a game which has neither a level playing field nor has the people on top paying the majority of the bills in 2017.
So if you are content on your WoW EMU what are we even debating? Just keep playing your 13 year old game.
It then progressed onto the fact that you feel like RPGs shouldn't use itemization or vertical stat progression because it creates power gaps in content and between other players (but, ironically enough, you only cared about these things when you had to compare yourself to others in the same game world with you). You then tried to cite the popularity of microtransactions and horizontal progression as proof that time does equal money in terms of resources, because whales exist and developers have found they can make money off of those whales. How that proved your argument, I still don't know.
From there, you attempted to prove that you were right by implying I was hiding something about the games I play, as if what games I play also proved your argument. Once I responded with the games I play, you made a sarcastic remark implying that I enjoy a niche market that isn't very popular (which is cool with me, 6000+ every night of the week is more than enough massiveness for me), as if that somehow proved that time does, in fact, equal money both in nature and in distribution among the population. And now... We're here.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I never "tried to cite the popularity of microtransactions and horizontal progression as proof that time does equal money in terms of resources." I simply used to illustrate it doesn't matter how you feel about the subject pay to win vs. play to win because your feelings have no affect on anything or anyone of any importance.
The reason you are wrong in the rest of your argument simply boils down to the fact you apparently can't comprehend the difference between working your butt of to excel at a sport, art etc. and doing braindead level easy content until the game makes you stronger.
You can bypass effort with time or you can bypass effort with cash. Either way, you're bypassing effort to get a reward instead of skillbased games and real life where excellence takes effort and you can't just buy or grind your way past the need for that.
Your whole apparently Marxist outlook on life and anger that mommy and daddy didn't teach you fiscal responsibility or instill any drive and you isn't an argument I care much about. You can have that one with Gdemami.
You only pivoted to citing the popularity of microtransactions later.
I pivoted to basically saying "There is no convincing you, but it doesn't matter anyway, because the argument has already been lost." It's not that my arguments weren't sound or that you've made even a single good point in this entire topic, it's my arguments are flying over your head and I'm tired of beating my head against a brick wall.
You're never going to get what I'm saying because you are intent on trying to justify your addiction. I get that.
And yes time does = money. You can go back and read the post you pulled the quote from if you care to broaden your understanding. I'm not going to re-explain things I already laid out to you.
You pivoted to appealing to popularity to try to undermine my argument using the popularity of microtransactions. But since my argument had nothing to do with popularity, that failed too.
What addiction? Are you really so willfully ignorant as to have completely ignored my posts? I'm a casual MMORPG player who sees the objective difference between time and money; you're a whale who wants to protect your ability to buy in-game power by justifying it through fallacious arguments, of which I've also pointed out to you.
You pivoted because your argument was a fail and you were reaching for a way to undercut me, as opposed to my argument. That's where you started including "no lifer" and "basement dweller" comments in your post. Ooh, so clever!
I won't get into the greater discussion, but there are several points of view in the real world on this topic. People with money tend to be looking for ways to make more, ergo they consider their time to be valuable. People that want money, generally fall into this category as well.
Then there are people that do not care about money and are happy to just get by. I won't go any further into specifics, but this generalization is good enough for the argument at hand.
Trying to translate this as a resource in a game is also an age old discussion. I have been told (on more than one occasion) that giving away resources is giving away money. Since I do not gauge my enjoyment on the accumulation of wealth in a game, I choose to give my resources away to people that want them. I do not, however, do this irl.
Basically, the above example is to say: it's far too subjective to say definitively that time = money translates into a tangible resource in a game. For some, it is, for others it is not.
Essentially you guys have been trying to convince each other that your point of view is the only correct one, and you are both wrong, and right. It all comes down to opinion.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Does not address any point I have made though...
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
i dunno why that was in italics.
But the best part was that it didn't cost a thing. They've also had types of gambling in other games too, but that isn't really the type of gambling I meant in the original post. Most of those cases only utilized in game currencies that couldn't be purchased with real money or traded.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I mean sure there are people that start with more money when they're born then most of the population would ever see in a lifetime.
I don't like the time ='s money equation for other reasons.
Time ='s money at an earnings pace per hour (in many cases) if people want to get technical considering their jobs. But that is considered time you're working. Salaried employees would consider that differently, as I'm salaried so, even when I'm not working I make the same amount of money, or.. actually the less I work the more I would technically "make" if you only count time working as an indicator of time equaling money.
But the premise of time equaling money in games is a different story. Unless you're a youtuber, where streaming a game earns you money, that time you spend doesn't equate to money. When you consider games that charge 15 dollars a month for game access, and consider a bosses RNG to be the same as loot box gambling, that's an incorrect assessment of my original post, and not correct when depicting your game-time equaling money.
I agree that time CAN equal money, at an earnings pace in most cases. It doesn't always equal money obviously. When you factor in game-time and entertainment, or just other activities, it makes no sense to see those situations as money-losing scenarios. If I eat a sandwich for 15 minutes does that mean I have just lost 20 dollars of money-producing time?
Maybe I'm completely missing the argument here.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I will certainly agree that in a business sense, the saying "Time equals money" has a lot of truth to it. That's because most business people/merchants are focused on making money. That's their goal. So, in order to achieve that goal, they valuate their time based on how much money they're making. If they're *not* making any money (or not much) compared to doing some other activity with that time, then they likely consider that time either wasted or poorly utilized. Why watch a football game if they could be closing a deal that'll make them a fat wad of cash? The whole thing is, as I said, based on achieving an overall goal: making money.
But, what if making money wasn't your main goal? In that case, for that person, time *does not* equal money.
People value many things, some more than others. Some people pursue the things that matter to them more single-mindedly than others. Generally, the more single-minded you are in pursuing a goal, the more focused you are on spending as much time as possible pursuing it, and the more you resent any barriers to achieving it. And if your goal is to become as powerful as possible in an MMORPG, then any barriers, including time, that get in your way will be a source of annoyance that needs to be overcome. Some people will use money to do that, and some games will provide means to accommodate that method.
At any rate, I don't know if my way of looking at things is the "only correct way", but it *is* the way I look at it, and it works for me.