How exactly is this legal?

RenoakuRenoaku Member RarePosts: 2,284
https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/58687-Bank-of-Albion-Third-Party-Services/

https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/56962-Bank-of-Albion-Albion-Release-Investments-1-Signups-are-now-Open/

I am curious to how this all this is legal in this game given the company bans for so much as trading between two different games or guilty before innocent on 4.5.1 of their terms, when trading or receiving large amounts of items of nothing in Equal Value in return.

How can this company allow players themselves to control the entire in game market, because we all know if plenty of investors take control of the current Gold / Silver exchange system in this games system, for example if I put in $10,000 to this game in Real Money, or had enough donations I could control the entire market exchange myself.

TheScavengerSedrynTyrosExcessionMrMelGibsonGdemamiAzaron_Nightblade
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Comments

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member EpicPosts: 3,432
    Probably with legality is that the law is old. Laws also take a lot of time to change. Jurisdictions and such to consider and what is considered illegal and boardline yada yada etc etc. You'd think lawyers who represent gaming industries would make a lot of money given how many legal loopholes currently exist due to how outdated or non-existent the law is in certain situations.
  • RenoakuRenoaku Member RarePosts: 2,284
    Oh and what prevents people from using this player to illegally launder stolen or fraud currency as shown in this forum ?

    https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/58816-Gold-Seller-Cleanup-Launch-Week-Edition/

    In which case lets say if I for example really went on some 3rd party site purchased gold illegally and gave it all to this person, or used it to trade for property for something I wonder if they would get banned because after all they are technically receiving items or currency with nothing of equal value in return?

    Also why didn't Albion just put in banking services, stocks & bonds and such in the first place and forbid this from the game?


    TheScavengerExcessionGdemami
  • RenoakuRenoaku Member RarePosts: 2,284
    edited July 20
    Albatroes said:
    Probably with legality is that the law is old. Laws also take a lot of time to change. Jurisdictions and such to consider and what is considered illegal and boardline yada yada etc etc. You'd think lawyers who represent gaming industries would make a lot of money given how many legal loopholes currently exist due to how outdated or non-existent the law is in certain situations.
    haha yeah I've been thinking about paying unban service a 3rd party service to write my appeal letters for me and sending them to Albion, but I am not sure how good their service really is I just hear of a lot of reviews would be my first $50 actually paid to a 3rd party, and I wonder if they are a legit company or have a good success rate?
    Post edited by Renoaku on
    ExcessionGdemami
  • PemminPemmin Member UncommonPosts: 425
    its legal because of the terms of service you agree to when you installed the client. you acknowledged a legal contract.

     1) they state that you can be banned for any reason basically. (you were caught doing unethical currency trading)
     2) you only own the client....... not the servers nor the game. its perfectly legal to deny you access to their property.

    this is basically every service ever on the internet...what rock have you've been under
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    as for the second question 

    That is their choice how they want to monetize and run the in game economy .... and they have to deal with the financial consequences of that choice whether good or bad. so if you want to feed them money in an attempt to destroy there player base....go for it. just be warned its going to take more then 10k and if you destroy the game its akin to throwing your money away for spite.
    TheScavengergunklacker
  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaMember EpicPosts: 12,977
    I looked more into the read and deciphered it.

    If this Saya is trying to create something "in game economy" she believes should be in game,why is she supporting such a half assed game that doesn't meet the standards she wants?
    To me it is very simple,if a game does not do enough or cater to what i expect from the game,then i won't support it ,period.
    As to what the one poster stated,yes it is all about laws in general ,they are VERY slow to capture gaming as an important reason to create and change laws.
    The reason is gaming is looked down upon like a meaningless entity as well gaming laws need people to THINK as nothing is clear cut easy to figure out.The law would rather tackle easier issues,stuff they can easily lay down a fine with little effort or thought.

    Make no mistake,gaming needs a LOT of new laws and changer will happen,it will be a very long slow process though.
    TheScavenger

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • RenoakuRenoaku Member RarePosts: 2,284
    Pemmin said:
    its legal because of the terms of service you agree to when you installed the client. you acknowledged a legal contract.

     1) they state that you can be banned for any reason basically. (you were caught doing unethical currency trading)
     2) you only own the client....... not the servers nor the game. its perfectly legal to deny you access to their property.

    this is basically every service ever on the internet...what rock have you've been under
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    as for the second question 

    That is their choice how they want to monetize and run the in game economy .... and they have to deal with the financial consequences of that choice whether good or bad. so if you want to feed them money in an attempt to destroy there player base....go for it. just be warned its going to take more then 10k and if you destroy the game its akin to throwing your money away for spite.
    Well yeah thanks I do understand their companies limitations currently, as well as the Legal Rights a company has to ban a person although you can't really ban a person without a legal court order, or without the proper security which this game lacks in every way.

    And yeah I get why they say they ban my accountm but this company has failed to show any type of proof, and if my trading was unethical, as they call it how would I know or be responsible for what another person or player does being legal or illegal?

    I guess my real question isn't so much to argue a ban, but its about how SBI, can allow a player to control the entire in game market, which can result in fraudulent gold, and money going back to other players and investors in albion, if not the people ripping off people entirely although my concern is more about how this game company is currently allowing single players to control the entire game economic system.

    https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/58687-Bank-of-Albion-Third-Party-Services/

    https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/56962-Bank-of-Albion-Albion-Release-Investments-1-Signups-are-now-Open/ 
    TheScavengerExcessionGdemami
  • RenoakuRenoaku Member RarePosts: 2,284
    edited July 20
    Wizardry said:
    I looked more into the read and deciphered it.

    If this Saya is trying to create something "in game economy" she believes should be in game,why is she supporting such a half assed game that doesn't meet the standards she wants?
    To me it is very simple,if a game does not do enough or cater to what i expect from the game,then i won't support it ,period.
    As to what the one poster stated,yes it is all about laws in general ,they are VERY slow to capture gaming as an important reason to create and change laws.
    The reason is gaming is looked down upon like a meaningless entity as well gaming laws need people to THINK as nothing is clear cut easy to figure out.The law would rather tackle easier issues,stuff they can easily lay down a fine with little effort or thought.

    Make no mistake,gaming needs a LOT of new laws and changer will happen,it will be a very long slow process though.
    Ah thanks, well personally I support a free economy like in EVE, which I have never been banned from btw, the economics are great over there, but I do question how a single player in this game can run an entire bank and call it "The Bank OF Albion" this player can pretty much use investments and such to dominate the entire Gold / Silver exchange, possibly even by using 3rd party API's, plugins, or apps to monitor and track economics to know how much to flip, and when to flip etc.

    Like I got no personal problem with a person doing such, but given this game company does accuse people like myself of being guilty before innocent, how can it be legal, and yeah I do understand it takes time to change and stuff, so I am quite curious of the outcome of what will happen or if they will be allowed to simply dominate the entire market / game.

    Personally even if I was still playing this game, or managed to somehow get unbanned I don't think I would ever trust such a service I might get accused of being a gold seller next or just be losing my entire investment, or some how supporting a Top Guilds siege by them making so much in return and only giving like 10% inevstment for example but really profiting more, after all why would a person in a game run such a service if they were not making profit themselves.
    Post edited by Renoaku on
    TheScavengerExcessionGdemami
  • laxielaxie UK - Leamington SpaMember RarePosts: 800
    edited July 20
    The developer has pretty much all say in who gets access to their products. This is true for the large majority of games. Most developers have clauses in their EULAs allowing them to revoke access to any user, regardless of how much they spent and regardless of the reason.

    Even though you obtain items in-game (or even buy them for real money), you do not "own" the items. The virtual property has no direct monetary value, as the game doesn't allow for the conversion of virtual currency back to real currency. As such, I don't think there is anything illegal about them revoking your access. This may be different in games like Second Life, where your in-game currency has a direct real-life value. That's the rare exception where I think you could claim your real-life currency equivalent after being banned. But they have that covered in their EULA I would suppose ...

    They stated the reason for your ban is receiving items/currency without giving the trader a comparable value back. In practice, the trade itself is generally not a huge issue if the person you are trading with isn't a third-party gold seller. And by "gold seller", I mean any person who engages in these types of trades systematically in the long term. They engage in systematic long-term trading to generate profits (either money, or any physical/virtual goods in another game). This activity of the gold seller automatically flags their account - this was common and accurate 15 years ago. Today, with advances in machine learning, this flagging of gold sellers has to be trivial. If you then trade with a flagged account, you yourself become part of the problem - you end up being flagged yourself as someone the developer doesn't want in their game. And thus, you end up being banned.

    Having owned a Minecraft server for 5 years, I see where the developer is coming from. As a developer, you are spending time and power to create something interesting. The large majority of players will engage with it in a positive way. Some of those might not enjoy it, voicing their concerns openly, forcing you to respond and reshape your product. I think that's fair. But a small fraction of your player base (let's say 5%), will engage with your product in a way that disrupts the gameplay for the 95%. Even though I hate conflict on a personal level, I understand that you have to draw a line somewhere. If you leave the 5% in, you make the experience worse for the majority of the players, and I don't think that's fair at all. In Albion's eyes, you are the 5%. They decided to draw the line in a certain place - I think they have the right to do that.
    Post edited by laxie on
    Renoaku
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Chicago, ILMember EpicPosts: 5,727
    There are consumer protections laws in place which can override company's terms of service even if you did agree to them but it depends on the country you live in and the specific issue.  A GM once told me in some countries, people who are banned are legally entitled to a refund, I think this was in ESO when they were banning bots everywhere for awhile.
    laxieRenoaku

    "Change is the only constant."

  • PemminPemmin Member UncommonPosts: 425
    edited July 20
    Renoaku said:
    Pemmin said:
    its legal because of the terms of service you agree to when you installed the client. you acknowledged a legal contract.

     1) they state that you can be banned for any reason basically. (you were caught doing unethical currency trading)
     2) you only own the client....... not the servers nor the game. its perfectly legal to deny you access to their property.

    this is basically every service ever on the internet...what rock have you've been under
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    as for the second question 

    That is their choice how they want to monetize and run the in game economy .... and they have to deal with the financial consequences of that choice whether good or bad. so if you want to feed them money in an attempt to destroy there player base....go for it. just be warned its going to take more then 10k and if you destroy the game its akin to throwing your money away for spite.
    Well yeah thanks I do understand their companies limitations currently, as well as the Legal Rights a company has to ban a person although you can't really ban a person without a legal court order, or without the proper security which this game lacks in every way.

    And yeah I get why they say they ban my accountm but this company has failed to show any type of proof, and if my trading was unethical, as they call it how would I know or be responsible for what another person or player does being legal or illegal?

    I guess my real question isn't so much to argue a ban, but its about how SBI, can allow a player to control the entire in game market, which can result in fraudulent gold, and money going back to other players and investors in albion, if not the people ripping off people entirely although my concern is more about how this game company is currently allowing single players to control the entire game economic system.

    https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/58687-Bank-of-Albion-Third-Party-Services/

    https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/56962-Bank-of-Albion-Albion-Release-Investments-1-Signups-are-now-Open/ 
    as for proof, legal court order, or security......it would vary from country to country whether they need to provide any of that at all. you'd have to consult your local governments laws. also remember a company only has to follow those laws and court orders if the company has physical property within said nation's border.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    as for the saya posts

    none of her "third party Services" bring anything from outside of the game into the game. shes basically just asking to be a in game middle man for whats commonly referred as trust trading.

    as for the  investing thing....it is in game trust trading. the only thing you could really question would be the "backed up by collateral" statement she makes. if shes backing up that gold with out of game money....then yeah its a ToS violation. id also like to point out that if these trades get caught by the anti cheat software...these people could get banned for the whole large unbalanced trading thing per # 1 mentioned in my above post.

    a note on trust trading- trust trading circumvents the security that is in place....so yeah all of what she posted could be one big scam. which could result(whether its a scam or legit actually) in her getting banned and people losing currency they paid for. most game companies actually will put out a statement saying either its strictly forbidden or that they don't support it nor endorse it....and that it is do at your own risk and players should make note of the risks involved. depends on how much the company wants to put into enforcing their ethics policy really.
    Post edited by Pemmin on
    laxieRenoaku
  • RenoakuRenoaku Member RarePosts: 2,284
    There are consumer protections laws in place which can override company's terms of service even if you did agree to them but it depends on the country you live in and the specific issue.  A GM once told me in some countries, people who are banned are legally entitled to a refund, I think this was in ESO when they were banning bots everywhere for awhile.
    Ah thanks, well im in The U.S, and they are in Germany, otherwise I would have already taken it to small claims just to get my money back since I have proof of everything I spent, so I think that is kind of an issue.

    Is there any protection Laws that actually protect customers across country, like in the U.S I know it would be easy for me to deal with.
    ExcessionMrMelGibsonGdemami
  • RenoakuRenoaku Member RarePosts: 2,284
    Pemmin said: 
    as for proof, legal court order, or security......it would vary from country to country whether they need to provide any of that at all. you'd have to consult your local governments laws. also remember a company only has to follow those laws and court orders if they have physical property within said nation's border.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    as for the saya posts

    none of her "third party Services" bring anything from outside of the game into the game. shes basically just asking to be a in game middle man for whats commonly referred as trust trading.

    as for the  investing thing....it is in game trust trading. the only thing you could really question would be the "backed up by collateral" statement she makes. if shes backing up that gold with out of game money....then yeah its a ToS violation. id also like to point out that if these trades get caught by the anti cheat software...these people could get banned for the whole large unbalanced trading thing per #1 mentioned in my above post.

    a note on trust trading- trust trading circumvents the security that is in place....so yeah all of what she posted could be one big scam. which could result(whether its a scam or legit actually) in her getting banned and people losing currency they paid for. most game companies actually will put out a statement saying either its strictly forbidden or that they don't support it nor endorse it....and that it is do at your own risk and players should make note of the risks involved. depends on how much the company wants to put into enforcing their ethics policy really.
    Yes I understand its only in game, but part of the problem is if a user sticks illigimate currency into their trust fund, and this currency is used to swap silver to old and so on, I wonder how the company is going to react to it all.

    I got no problem with allowing a 3rd party to run a bank or service in a game, but I got a problem with Gold Sellers, and the ability to launder cash, like it or not everyone who plays a MMO actually likely gets stolen gold at least once in their life time where it be a direct trade, through the acution house, or some other form of trading.

    As for security, Albion Online currently has no security other than banning people who buy currency, or in my case people who exchanged between games during beta and weren't aware it was illegal to do so resulting in lifetime bans, the only security measures they have in place is the server side trading logs which is easy to find people who buy gold illegally because gold sellers from my experience usualyl use the same account to trade many people resulting in the person getting banned, sometimes innocent people or people like myself may get caught up in the mess its only happened 3 times in 17 years, but never got banned until Albion

    There is currently no Anti-Cheat in Albion, and nothing other than IP Bans, they can't legally stop people from making more accounts and getting a new IP for myself personally is Easy I can just call my ISP I have some friends who work there who can assign me a new one, or just swap out the modem quite easy.
    TheScavengerExcessionGdemami
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorMember RarePosts: 2,001
    edited July 20
    Dunno but doesn't this violate their TOS about not being able to just hand gold over to another player unless you get something of equal value in return?

    Also this isn't going to end well as apparently there are already a couple "secret" financial cabals out there that are palying with even more gold that will be frankly targeting this one since it has "stupidly" gone public.

    What happens when the secret cabal target players that join the public one?

    Lots of salty tears I think with griefing and harassment complaint I think.


    Also if this becomes really big, looks at the secret cabals, and they end up managing lots of gold whats to stop them from selling some of the profits off for real money via paypal or in some other way that can't really be tracked?
    Post edited by Asm0deus on
    TheScavengerGdemami

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.

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  • RenoakuRenoaku Member RarePosts: 2,284
    edited July 20
    Asm0deus said:
    Dunno but doesn't this violate their TOS about not being able to just hand gold over to another player unless you get something of equal value in return?

    Also this isn't going to end well as apparently there are already a couple "secret" financial cabals out there that are palying with even more gold that will be frankly targeting this one since it has "stupidly" gone public.

    What happens when the secret cabal target players that join the public one?

    Lots of salty tears I think with griefing and harassment complaint I think.
    I dunno this pretty much the same question I am wondering, I know myself as a player and as I have posted before I am 100% Legitimate besides the one mistake I made of trading between games so if I was to actually put any gold into there just to see if it was is legit or anything I wouldn't fraud her although easy to do its not something I would do because doing such is disrespectful, and just a horrid thing to do, but I can't say the same for everyone although I love to believe that everyone is legit in games sometimes it just turns out not to be the case.

    But yeah I think it breaks the rule too with handing currency over or items with nothing in Equal Value, pretty much what happened to me when I got banned they gave me a large amount of currency between two games, and then I was accused of buying gold, as in their agreement which kinda recently changed says they will do if you can't prove where it came from although "Counter Evidence" part they don't even review if they personally feel that a player cheated.


    4.5 General Ruleset for Virtual Benefits 
     
    4.5.1 Users are prohibited from selling, purchasing, renting, leasing, offering, accepting, disseminating or copying Virtual Benefits, including Virtual Currency, within and/or outside the Game - in whatever form – to/from third parties unless expressly permitted by these Terms and Conditions or the Game Rules. An in game-system provided by the Game or by Sandbox Interactive to trade Virtual Benefits of the Game constitutes such an exception. In this case, the transfer of Virtual Benefits from one User to the other is only permitted if the transfer takes place - no matter if within or outside the Game – either without any form of consideration or with consideration if the consideration consists solely of Virtual Property or Virtual Currency of the Game and such is transferred within the Game itself or via a function provided by the Game. The acquisition of Virtual Benefits in exchange for any form of consideration other than Virtual Property or Virtual Currency of the Game is expressly prohibited. If the User trades or exchanges Virtual Benefits on a large scale without a comparable value obtained within the Game, then it is assumed that the User violates this rule. The User is entitled to provide counter-evidence.
    Post edited by Renoaku on
    TheScavengerExcessionGdemami
  • PemminPemmin Member UncommonPosts: 425
    Renoaku said:
    Pemmin said: 
    as for proof, legal court order, or security......it would vary from country to country whether they need to provide any of that at all. you'd have to consult your local governments laws. also remember a company only has to follow those laws and court orders if they have physical property within said nation's border.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    as for the saya posts

    none of her "third party Services" bring anything from outside of the game into the game. shes basically just asking to be a in game middle man for whats commonly referred as trust trading.

    as for the  investing thing....it is in game trust trading. the only thing you could really question would be the "backed up by collateral" statement she makes. if shes backing up that gold with out of game money....then yeah its a ToS violation. id also like to point out that if these trades get caught by the anti cheat software...these people could get banned for the whole large unbalanced trading thing per #1 mentioned in my above post.

    a note on trust trading- trust trading circumvents the security that is in place....so yeah all of what she posted could be one big scam. which could result(whether its a scam or legit actually) in her getting banned and people losing currency they paid for. most game companies actually will put out a statement saying either its strictly forbidden or that they don't support it nor endorse it....and that it is do at your own risk and players should make note of the risks involved. depends on how much the company wants to put into enforcing their ethics policy really.
    Yes I understand its only in game, but part of the problem is if a user sticks illigimate currency into their trust fund, and this currency is used to swap silver to old and so on, I wonder how the company is going to react to it all.

    I got no problem with allowing a 3rd party to run a bank or service in a game, but I got a problem with Gold Sellers, and the ability to launder cash, like it or not everyone who plays a MMO actually likely gets stolen gold at least once in their life time where it be a direct trade, through the acution house, or some other form of trading.

    As for security, Albion Online currently has no security other than banning people who buy currency, or in my case people who exchanged between games during beta and weren't aware it was illegal to do so resulting in lifetime bans, the only security measures they have in place is the server side trading logs which is easy to find people who buy gold illegally because gold sellers from my experience usualyl use the same account to trade many people resulting in the person getting banned, sometimes innocent people or people like myself may get caught up in the mess its only happened 3 times in 17 years, but never got banned until Albion

    There is currently no Anti-Cheat in Albion, and nothing other than IP Bans, they can't legally stop people from making more accounts and getting a new IP for myself personally is Easy I can just call my ISP I have some friends who work there who can assign me a new one, or just swap out the modem quite easy.
    unfortunately your walking into the whole RMT bot problem that has been plaguing every MMO with increasing magnitudes since the beginning of the industry territory. honestly the only ways they can combat it is...1) go after the RMT companies.....but that generally doesn't work because of how international law works. 2) IP bans...which can be circumvented 3) punish the buyers.....which has issues of its own and is resource intensive for the company 4) design economic mechanics around not having a player based economy......like Diablo 3 or BDO for example.

    yeah its a shit show, but also falls under that grey area of can't do shit about it
    RenoakuGdemami
  • PemminPemmin Member UncommonPosts: 425
    edited July 20
    sm0deus said:
    Dunno but doesn't this violate their TOS about not being able to just hand gold over to another player unless you get something of equal value in return?

    Also this isn't going to end well as apparently there are already a couple "secret" financial cabals out there that are palying with even more gold that will be frankly targeting this one since it has "stupidly" gone public.

    What happens when the secret cabal target players that join the public one? 

    Lots of salty tears I think with griefing and harassment complaint I think.


    i agree SBI should forbid market manipulation if they are going to be running a totally player based economy


    Post edited by Pemmin on
    RenoakuGdemami
  • forcelimaforcelima Atlanta, GAMember UncommonPosts: 196
    edited July 20
    Wow renoaku you still at it. Everything you type is about Albion. Step outside get some fresh air accept that you was banned because you are a gold buying piece of filth. 
    Post edited by forcelima on
    SedrynTyros

    Pre-release:
    -"Trion is the best publisher XL could have found for AA"
    -"AA will be different in the west, Trion won't mess it up"
    -"Trion's ArcheAge"
    -"Trion will make their own decision according to what's best for AA on the western market"
    -"Trion has total control, it will literally be a different game over here"

    Post-release:
    "People have to learn that it's not Trion's game and that there is little they can do".

    -Volgore

  • RenoakuRenoaku Member RarePosts: 2,284
    Pemmin said:
    Renoaku said:
    Pemmin said: 
    as for proof, legal court order, or security......it would vary from country to country whether they need to provide any of that at all. you'd have to consult your local governments laws. also remember a company only has to follow those laws and court orders if they have physical property within said nation's border.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    as for the saya posts

    none of her "third party Services" bring anything from outside of the game into the game. shes basically just asking to be a in game middle man for whats commonly referred as trust trading.

    as for the  investing thing....it is in game trust trading. the only thing you could really question would be the "backed up by collateral" statement she makes. if shes backing up that gold with out of game money....then yeah its a ToS violation. id also like to point out that if these trades get caught by the anti cheat software...these people could get banned for the whole large unbalanced trading thing per #1 mentioned in my above post.

    a note on trust trading- trust trading circumvents the security that is in place....so yeah all of what she posted could be one big scam. which could result(whether its a scam or legit actually) in her getting banned and people losing currency they paid for. most game companies actually will put out a statement saying either its strictly forbidden or that they don't support it nor endorse it....and that it is do at your own risk and players should make note of the risks involved. depends on how much the company wants to put into enforcing their ethics policy really.
    Yes I understand its only in game, but part of the problem is if a user sticks illigimate currency into their trust fund, and this currency is used to swap silver to old and so on, I wonder how the company is going to react to it all.

    I got no problem with allowing a 3rd party to run a bank or service in a game, but I got a problem with Gold Sellers, and the ability to launder cash, like it or not everyone who plays a MMO actually likely gets stolen gold at least once in their life time where it be a direct trade, through the acution house, or some other form of trading.

    As for security, Albion Online currently has no security other than banning people who buy currency, or in my case people who exchanged between games during beta and weren't aware it was illegal to do so resulting in lifetime bans, the only security measures they have in place is the server side trading logs which is easy to find people who buy gold illegally because gold sellers from my experience usualyl use the same account to trade many people resulting in the person getting banned, sometimes innocent people or people like myself may get caught up in the mess its only happened 3 times in 17 years, but never got banned until Albion

    There is currently no Anti-Cheat in Albion, and nothing other than IP Bans, they can't legally stop people from making more accounts and getting a new IP for myself personally is Easy I can just call my ISP I have some friends who work there who can assign me a new one, or just swap out the modem quite easy.
    unfortunately your walking into the whole RMT bot problem that has been plaguing every MMO with increasing magnitudes since the beginning of the industry territory. honestly the only ways they can combat it is...1) go after the RMT companies.....but that generally doesn't work because of how international law works. 2) IP bans...which can be circumvented 3) punish the buyers.....which has issues of its own and is resource intensive for the company 4) design economic mechanics around not having a player based economy......like Diablo 3 or BDO for example.

    yeah its a shit show, but also falls under that grey area of can't do shit about it
    Well let me be a bit truthful here, I know its hard to deal with people who commit fraud, and personally I have never ripped off a company, truth is I wanted to charge back my 3 purchases but I decided not to because I really just wanted my account back and I knew doing such would likely make it so I couldn't. http://imgur.com/a/jAsOC These are my purchases with real money my only ones.

    1.) Going after the RMT companies is hard because they come from foreign countries.

    2.) IP bans are easily evaded I know I could have register and played again I just haven't bothered to because I want to stay legal.

    3.) Punish the buyers is one way, but it can impact a small perecent of legitimate people who don't actually buy gold like what happened to me what I did still broke a rule I wasn't aware of during beta.

    There are however security features which this company lacks to prevent illegal currency.

    1.) They could detect based off IP address, and VPN Companies which accounts are registered and put in restrictions on buying currency, and a set play time of at least 10 hours for example.

    2.) They could put restrictions on newly created accounts to keep from losing money allow legitimate players to submit a ticket, or over time increase their buying limit.

    3.) Allowing direct exchange of currency in this game creates a problem for the economic balance because people can illegally use a credit-card to acquire gold and immediately swap it all back and fourth.

    Something has to be done besides just banning people who buy currency and the sellers when found but to better protect the economy.

    ExcessionGdemami
  • RenoakuRenoaku Member RarePosts: 2,284
    Pemmin said:
    sm0deus said:
    Dunno but doesn't this violate their TOS about not being able to just hand gold over to another player unless you get something of equal value in return?

    Also this isn't going to end well as apparently there are already a couple "secret" financial cabals out there that are palying with even more gold that will be frankly targeting this one since it has "stupidly" gone public.

    What happens when the secret cabal target players that join the public one? 

    Lots of salty tears I think with griefing and harassment complaint I think.


    i agree SBI should forbid market manipulation if they are going to be running a totally player based economy


    Yep exactly part of the problem, or giving gold, and silver to big guilds who dominate creating a cheating unbalance in the game, or even selling as you say because most game companies won't review evidence for example if I admit to purchasing gold or using a hack in lets say discord most reputable companies won't take that as evidence so they would just ask in guild discords, and officers etc to make it go under the table.

    And yeah market manipulation is what I did in Arche Age years ago and it almost got me banned when I totally took control of certain items on the market.
    ExcessionGdemami
  • k61977k61977 Pendleton, SCMember RarePosts: 706
    Why do you keep making threads about this game?  You got banned for cheating and seems every time I turn around I see a new thread about how the game is doing something bad.  Just going to link the thread that you started where the devs actually replied themselves to you in it.

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/462334/before-you-buy-this-game-read-the-terms-of-service/p1

    This was part of what they said:
    Your in-game chatlogs, and the identity of the account that gave you the gold, leaves us with no doubt that you did indeed purchase gold from a 3rd party website. The fact that account who gave you the gold even said "Hi, I'm delivery" does not help, either.


    RenoakuSedrynTyrosForgrimmKyleran
  • btdtbtdt Member UncommonPosts: 98
    Purchasing an item from someone doesn't give you the right to then break the law.

    Case in point, O.J. Simpson got 33 years for stealing back his own sports memorabilia.


  • RenoakuRenoaku Member RarePosts: 2,284
    edited July 20
    k61977 said:
    Why do you keep making threads about this game?  You got banned for cheating and seems every time I turn around I see a new thread about how the game is doing something bad.  Just going to link the thread that you started where the devs actually replied themselves to you in it.

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/462334/before-you-buy-this-game-read-the-terms-of-service/p1

    This was part of what they said:
    Your in-game chatlogs, and the identity of the account that gave you the gold, leaves us with no doubt that you did indeed purchase gold from a 3rd party website. The fact that account who gave you the gold even said "Hi, I'm delivery" does not help, either.


    Thanks I do remember the developers response, but the developer has no proven anything, and also a reputable developer or GM, would have responded to my case instead of sending CSR's or people who have no knowledge of the incident to reply to tickets with likely automated responses, and even reviewed the counter evidence submitted.

    . Show me where in the chatlog it says that I am buying currency for an amount of money?

    . Saying "Hi Im Delivery" does not prove a person purchased gold? I could say "Hi Im Delivery" to my friends too if I was moving goods across towns and we were in Comms, or Im here to deliver your goods for example?

    . It makes no sense why I would buy gold illegally from a 3rd party when the gold would be deleted anyways from the game that just launched, why complain about  my money and time put into this game if I am not going to complain about the people I supposedly purchased the currency from?

    I know this company is within its legal right to deny access, but I still don't accept their lies with no valid evidence, and as much as I feel bad for ever getting involved or accepting a trade with someone who may have done something illegal, I did not know that trading across games was illegal to begin with, or accepting items with nothing of equal value in return?

    So If they are going to ban me simply for accepting goods, loans, or items across games with nothing of equal value in return then why are they going to allow a player to run a bank within a game or investment firm, which clearly doesn't support this, and allow them to receive goods without anything of Equal Value in return, its still a violation of the rules like it or not.

    I don't think myself, nor the other person should be banned for this but clearly rules & terms are terms since they are giving me such a hard time trying to appeal their decision even when counter evidence was submitted.

    If Albion, or SBI is not going to stop this in game investment thing, then they might as well allow people to fully trade goods or items to others without anything equal in value so they don't get banned for stuff such as myself who did nothing but accept a trade during beta, I have no idea if someone else did something illegal before I accepted it its not my job to know, but being a MMO player 17+ years I would never do business with a gold farmer or cheater, and I would kick any known cheaters from my guild who would do such or leave a guild that cheats than be in a group of cheaters.

    Post edited by Renoaku on
    ExcessionGdemami
  • ElsaboltsElsabolts Anderson, InMember RarePosts: 3,139
    btdt said:
    Purchasing an item from someone doesn't give you the right to then break the law.

    Case in point, O.J. Simpson got 33 years for stealing back his own sports memorabilia.



    Nickole Simpson got her throat slashed by unknown killers the Juice is looking for them still, I assume.
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  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAMember EpicPosts: 7,615
    Renoaku said:
    Oh and what prevents people from using this player to illegally launder stolen or fraud currency as shown in this forum ?

    https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/58816-Gold-Seller-Cleanup-Launch-Week-Edition/

    In which case lets say if I for example really went on some 3rd party site purchased gold illegally and gave it all to this person, or used it to trade for property for something I wonder if they would get banned because after all they are technically receiving items or currency with nothing of equal value in return?

    Also why didn't Albion just put in banking services, stocks & bonds and such in the first place and forbid this from the game?



    If you think it is illegal, you are duty bound to report it.  Call the FBI.  Other than that then...
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  • RenoakuRenoaku Member RarePosts: 2,284
    edited July 20
    waynejr2 said:
    Renoaku said:
    Oh and what prevents people from using this player to illegally launder stolen or fraud currency as shown in this forum ?

    https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/58816-Gold-Seller-Cleanup-Launch-Week-Edition/

    In which case lets say if I for example really went on some 3rd party site purchased gold illegally and gave it all to this person, or used it to trade for property for something I wonder if they would get banned because after all they are technically receiving items or currency with nothing of equal value in return?

    Also why didn't Albion just put in banking services, stocks & bonds and such in the first place and forbid this from the game?



    If you think it is illegal, you are duty bound to report it.  Call the FBI.  Other than that then...
    Ah what I mean is gold sellers or people who use Real Money to buy currency and invest it without anything of equal value in return, or quickly launder in game assets or items out to other people with bought currency, in other words the illegal gold farmers who use stolen credit-cards to buy Gold with real money then sell it to other people.

    The FBI isn't going to get involved with in game items or virtual goods, unless a person used my Credit-Card to illegally do transactions on it using Real Money, then perhaps, or am I wrong about this?

    After all Gold is generated by an Automated system, and Gold is said I believe in the Terms & Conditions to hold no value therefore a person who commits fraud the currency holds no value so only the person who did the illegal transaction if caught could get into trouble but the gold in game that circles between players after the 3rd party buys it wouldn't have anything happen other than a possible ban.
    Post edited by Renoaku on
    ExcessionGdemami
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