Holy hell what is going on in this thread. I agree with Dullahan 100%. You guys are comparing apples to oranges.
EQ1 PvP had some of the most amazing, effectual PvP ever in a MMORPG. You could kill anyone, in any zone, in the entire world.
I love DAoC, but the three entire worlds were locked away, only the frontiers (and later a single dungeon) were contested for PvP.
In EQ1 I could go into main cities, sneak past guards, kill people at banks, loot an item and all coin. I once looted 10,000 Platinum off a guy. That was worth hundreds of dollars back then. Please tell me a fantasy 3D MMORPG that you can do such things in? The experience was amazing.
The only other MMORPG's that have had somewhat decent PvP since are DAoC, Shadowbane, EvE, Darkfall.
Someone mentioned Black Desert, I almost shot latte out of my nose. Some people have no idea what they are talking about. Trivial nonsense. Lineage? LOL
EQ1 PvP was great because there were no safe zone, you lost an item, coin, you could be hunted down, you had to work together to out-smart your enemy, class knowledge was paramount, you had to fight players also while controlling spawns, raids, manage NPC's, adds, block zones, scout, manage corpse runs, rezzing, trains, exp loss, with intimate knowledge of the zones from memory (no maps).
I could go on and on why EQ1 PvP wrecks pretty much everything that has come since.
Dullahan you gonna play on the Pantheon PvP server with me?
In EQ1 I could go into main cities, sneak past guards, kill people at banks, loot an item and all coin. I once looted 10,000 Platinum off a guy. That was worth hundreds of dollars back then. Please tell me a fantasy 3D MMORPG that you can do such things in? The experience was amazing.
How could anyone consider that as fun?Maybe if the favor was reversed on you,then you might understand it is a dumb mechanic/idea and not fun at all.There is a reason we don't allow that in the real world it is a dumb idea.
pvp is also going to pit players against each other,how is that in any fashion creating a fun coherent community?
My concern is how they do the grouping because i did not much like the way SOE did their grouping as in all dungeons.I want a PVE grouping game that brings players TOGETHER and creates a friendly atmosphere and NOT a cutthroat atmosphere.
Having separate servers will NOT work for PVE/PVP split because what ALWAYS happens is the classes get nerfed and changed constantly to cater to a bad pvp design that is ALWAYS bad in mmorpg's.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Merely having some form of PvE with PvP does not cut it. Even Mordred was very different, because how did you ultimately get the best gear in DAoC? When I played, it was 90-100% crafted (templates). That meant the content you were fighting over, as well as the frontiers and keeps, were mostly just a matter or realm pride. Does that not seem like a massive difference? Is it really not obvious how important winning was in a scenario where your character progression depends on it?
I was unaware we're arguing over unique designs, I thought this subject was "meaningful PVP" as that's what people took issue with in what you said. Since plenty of games had "meaningful PVP" in the old days.
I still wouldn't say blocking folks progress is unique to EQ. While most games eventually came up with systems to end such a practice on PVP servers, a few have had that before such changes were implemented..
AOC as an example had a lot of ways to block folks from the progression they were seeking. People took advantage of a lot of the bottlenecks in it's zone design like blocking entrances to dungeons and things like that.
Attacking folks during conversations and blocking their access to quest givers is another example of that. Eventually enough people complained and they made a lot of that either bannable or impossible, due to mechanics that were put in like non-killable guards being placed in problem areas. It's open Dungeons were just as you describe on Tyranny all along.
Hell games like Darkfall and SWG allowed you to block people from playing at all (corpse camping) Ever PVP on Kashyyyk?. No one had fun there, that lost.... considering the only cloner was in a hard locked bottleneck you couldn't escape from.
The problem with this line of thinking though, is that most consider this bad design, not meaningful PVP.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Holy hell what is going on in this thread. I agree with Dullahan 100%. You guys are comparing apples to oranges.
EQ1 PvP had some of the most amazing, effectual PvP ever in a MMORPG. You could kill anyone, in any zone, in the entire world.
I love DAoC, but the three entire worlds were locked away, only the frontiers (and later a single dungeon) were contested for PvP.
In EQ1 I could go into main cities, sneak past guards, kill people at banks, loot an item and all coin. I once looted 10,000 Platinum off a guy. That was worth hundreds of dollars back then. Please tell me a fantasy 3D MMORPG that you can do such things in? The experience was amazing.
The only other MMORPG's that have had somewhat decent PvP since are DAoC, Shadowbane, EvE, Darkfall.
Someone mentioned Black Desert, I almost shot latte out of my nose. Some people have no idea what they are talking about. Trivial nonsense. Lineage? LOL
EQ1 PvP was great because there were no safe zone, you lost an item, coin, you could be hunted down, you had to work together to out-smart your enemy, class knowledge was paramount, you had to fight players also while controlling spawns, raids, manage NPC's, adds, block zones, scout, manage corpse runs, rezzing, trains, exp loss, with intimate knowledge of the zones from memory (no maps).
I could go on and on why EQ1 PvP wrecks pretty much everything that has come since.
Dullahan you gonna play on the Pantheon PvP server with me?
Now pvp servers forcing people to group is unique to EQ? Corpse looting, Attacking in cities, etc.. aren't the only qualifiers to great PVP. I'd agree most PVP games have been shite, but this idea that EQ was some grand PVP game just seems odd. I've never seen it described as such, until this thread. Especially anyone claiming it was the best PVP ever..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Holy hell what is going on in this thread. I agree with Dullahan 100%. You guys are comparing apples to oranges.
EQ1 PvP had some of the most amazing, effectual PvP ever in a MMORPG. You could kill anyone, in any zone, in the entire world.
I love DAoC, but the three entire worlds were locked away, only the frontiers (and later a single dungeon) were contested for PvP.
In EQ1 I could go into main cities, sneak past guards, kill people at banks, loot an item and all coin. I once looted 10,000 Platinum off a guy. That was worth hundreds of dollars back then. Please tell me a fantasy 3D MMORPG that you can do such things in? The experience was amazing.
The only other MMORPG's that have had somewhat decent PvP since are DAoC, Shadowbane, EvE, Darkfall.
Someone mentioned Black Desert, I almost shot latte out of my nose. Some people have no idea what they are talking about. Trivial nonsense. Lineage? LOL
EQ1 PvP was great because there were no safe zone, you lost an item, coin, you could be hunted down, you had to work together to out-smart your enemy, class knowledge was paramount, you had to fight players also while controlling spawns, raids, manage NPC's, adds, block zones, scout, manage corpse runs, rezzing, trains, exp loss, with intimate knowledge of the zones from memory (no maps).
I could go on and on why EQ1 PvP wrecks pretty much everything that has come since.
Dullahan you gonna play on the Pantheon PvP server with me?
Now pvp servers forcing people to group is unique to EQ? Corpse looting, Attacking in cities, etc.. aren't the only qualifiers to great PVP. I'd agree most PVP games have been shite, but this idea that EQ was some grand PVP game just seems odd. I've never seen it described as such, until this thread. Especially anyone claiming it was the best PVP ever..
What goes beyond selection bias and rose colored glasses? We're beyond "alt-facts" here.
Exactly, my favorite PVP was in SWG, but I'm not so enamored with fandom of it, to say it's the best PVP ever in any conclusive way.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Holy hell what is going on in this thread. I agree with Dullahan 100%. You guys are comparing apples to oranges.
EQ1 PvP had some of the most amazing, effectual PvP ever in a MMORPG. You could kill anyone, in any zone, in the entire world.
I love DAoC, but the three entire worlds were locked away, only the frontiers (and later a single dungeon) were contested for PvP.
In EQ1 I could go into main cities, sneak past guards, kill people at banks, loot an item and all coin. I once looted 10,000 Platinum off a guy. That was worth hundreds of dollars back then. Please tell me a fantasy 3D MMORPG that you can do such things in? The experience was amazing.
The only other MMORPG's that have had somewhat decent PvP since are DAoC, Shadowbane, EvE, Darkfall.
Someone mentioned Black Desert, I almost shot latte out of my nose. Some people have no idea what they are talking about. Trivial nonsense. Lineage? LOL
EQ1 PvP was great because there were no safe zone, you lost an item, coin, you could be hunted down, you had to work together to out-smart your enemy, class knowledge was paramount, you had to fight players also while controlling spawns, raids, manage NPC's, adds, block zones, scout, manage corpse runs, rezzing, trains, exp loss, with intimate knowledge of the zones from memory (no maps).
I could go on and on why EQ1 PvP wrecks pretty much everything that has come since.
Dullahan you gonna play on the Pantheon PvP server with me?
Now pvp servers forcing people to group is unique to EQ? Corpse looting, Attacking in cities, etc.. aren't the only qualifiers to great PVP. I'd agree most PVP games have been shite, but this idea that EQ was some grand PVP game just seems odd. I've never seen it described as such, until this thread. Especially anyone claiming it was the best PVP ever..
I guarantee you that a high percentage of old school EQ1 players from the Zek servers would say the same thing and feel as I do. And it just wasn't PvP, it was how PvP and PvE interacted with one another that was so amazing.
Do you know how many attempts were made by individuals and team of players to revive that experience by creating Emu servers down through the years?
I am starting to think Dullahan and I are the only ones in this thread that have played Original EQ PvP in any meaningful capacity. Just dismissing it as "rose colored" glasses is just as much crap as trivial modern MMORPG's.
Not to sound rude, but I couldn't really take anyone serious that thought SWG had PvP even worth entering into a conversation.
I guarantee you that a high percentage of old school EQ1 players from the Zek servers would say the same thing and feel as I do. And it just wasn't PvP, it was how PvP and PvE interacted with one another that was so amazing.
Do you know how many attempts were made by individuals and team of players to revive that experience by creating Emu servers down through the years?
I am starting to think Dullahan and I are the only ones in this thread that have played Original EQ PvP in any meaningful capacity. Just dismissing it as "rose colored" glasses is just as much crap as trivial modern MMORPG's.
Not to sound rude, but I couldn't really take anyone serious that thought SWG had PvP even worth entering into a conversation.
Of course you can guarantee that... Anyone who has a favorite game thinks their game did it best, that's because that's what they got invested in. BE it UO, EQ, DAOC, etc... I enjoyed SWG most because of how the community shaped the experience. ON bloodfin there was a great community for that.
they have their own EMU server ran by one of the more prominent guilds from back in the day (my guilds Rival actually). I also enjoyed how PVP and PVE worked together in that game, faction PVE giving PVP flags.
I wouldn't say it's objectively best though, I'd say that goes to either DAOC or EVE. As they had the better actual PVP designs. As well as more resources devoted to shaping those games for that purpose.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have a ton of playtime in both DAoC and EvE, but I don't have the energy to discuss all those talking points. I've played just about every PvP MMORPG that has existed over the last two decades and am here to say Dallahan is spot on.
I have a ton of playtime in both DAoC and EvE, but I don't have the energy to discuss all those talking points. I've played just about every PvP MMORPG that has existed over the last two decades and am here to say Dallahan is spot on.
Oh okay since you say so... It must be true right?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I have a ton of playtime in both DAoC and EvE, but I don't have the energy to discuss all those talking points. I've played just about every PvP MMORPG that has existed over the last two decades and am here to say Dallahan is spot on.
Oh okay since you say so... It must be true right?
Just like trying to summarily dismiss Dallahan's points must make those dismissals true for you too right? We could go in a circle all day.
Curious, I would like to know peoples credentials in this thread when it comes to discussing EQ1 PvP and how "bad" it was.
It would be good to have a frame of reference.
My EQ1 experience:
Tallon Zek: 1999-2001, level 1-57; the best Necro on the server (I know, I am a modest man) Sullon Zek: 2001-2002, level 1-60; Neutral team.
In EQ1 I could go into main cities, sneak past guards, kill people at banks, loot an item and all coin. I once looted 10,000 Platinum off a guy. That was worth hundreds of dollars back then. Please tell me a fantasy 3D MMORPG that you can do such things in? The experience was amazing.
How could anyone consider that as fun?Maybe if the favor was reversed on you,then you might understand it is a dumb mechanic/idea and not fun at all.There is a reason we don't allow that in the real world it is a dumb idea.
pvp is also going to pit players against each other,how is that in any fashion creating a fun coherent community?
My concern is how they do the grouping because i did not much like the way SOE did their grouping as in all dungeons.I want a PVE grouping game that brings players TOGETHER and creates a friendly atmosphere and NOT a cutthroat atmosphere.
Having separate servers will NOT work for PVE/PVP split because what ALWAYS happens is the classes get nerfed and changed constantly to cater to a bad pvp design that is ALWAYS bad in mmorpg's.
If you don't see how that scenario I stated would be fun, I would suggest you stay off the Pantheon PvP server. The amount of skill, patience, risk involved with doing something like that is quite high.
It is all about risk vs reward. With great risk comes great reward. With no risk, comes no reward. The reward is fun. Modern MMORPG's have virtually zero risk.
Even if that one scenario doesn't float your boat, it's the idea that it CAN be done that is so engaging. I could come up with hundreds of stories similar to that one.
If you want a "coherent" community, once again definitely do not join the PvP server. Strife is captivating.
Just like trying to summarily dismiss Dallahan's points must make those dismissals true for you too right? We could go in a circle all day.
Curious, I would like to know peoples credentials in this thread when it comes to discussing EQ1 PvP and how "bad" it was.
It would be good to have a frame of reference.
My EQ1 experience:
Tallon Zek: 1999-2001, level 1-57; the best Necro on the server (I know, I am a modest man) Sullon Zek: 2001-2002, level 1-60; Neutral team.
I never played EQ, as all I was interested in was PVP back then, hence I played UO (which I thought sucked since it was so archaic), DAOC, then SWG which plenty of DAOC folks switched to because of the guild warring system (and star wars of course).
Who said EQ's PVP was bad? It just wasn't the focus of EQ and you know that; just as it is with any PVE oriented MMO. They have PVP servers for a reason, and see little dev focus on PVP for a reason.
I've been in numerous PVP guilds over the years, I was always seeking good PVP, not once did anyone say you know what was great? EQ PVP. It just doesn't have the PVP following of games like UO, EVE, DAOC or AC's darktide server. THe latter I never even tried but have heard it's name 100 times in reference to PVP. Yet never EQ.. Why is that?
And it wasn't about dismissing Dullahan's points about why he liked EQ, it was his statement that it was the only "meaningful PVP back then". I simply disagreed with that statement.
While His reasons are his own, how can anyone dispute or dismiss an opinion? IF that's why he liked EQ pvp that's fine, but making blanket statements about all other games not having meaningful PVP along with it, that's something else entirely. OF course such statements are going to be challenged. His follow ups to those challenges weren't much better than the original statement, as he's the one that started cutting everything down that didn't fit his personal narrative. SO if you want to talk about dismissing folks, don't be a hypocrite, start with him....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Holy hell what is going on in this thread. I agree with Dullahan 100%. You guys are comparing apples to oranges.
EQ1 PvP had some of the most amazing, effectual PvP ever in a MMORPG. You could kill anyone, in any zone, in the entire world.
I love DAoC, but the three entire worlds were locked away, only the frontiers (and later a single dungeon) were contested for PvP.
In EQ1 I could go into main cities, sneak past guards, kill people at banks, loot an item and all coin. I once looted 10,000 Platinum off a guy. That was worth hundreds of dollars back then. Please tell me a fantasy 3D MMORPG that you can do such things in? The experience was amazing.
The only other MMORPG's that have had somewhat decent PvP since are DAoC, Shadowbane, EvE, Darkfall.
Someone mentioned Black Desert, I almost shot latte out of my nose. Some people have no idea what they are talking about. Trivial nonsense. Lineage? LOL
EQ1 PvP was great because there were no safe zone, you lost an item, coin, you could be hunted down, you had to work together to out-smart your enemy, class knowledge was paramount, you had to fight players also while controlling spawns, raids, manage NPC's, adds, block zones, scout, manage corpse runs, rezzing, trains, exp loss, with intimate knowledge of the zones from memory (no maps).
I could go on and on why EQ1 PvP wrecks pretty much everything that has come since.
Dullahan you gonna play on the Pantheon PvP server with me?
Yet another person who has never played Asheron's Call Darktide server. But hey I get it, some of you started off in EQ and thought it was the best thing ever. I was on Sullon Zek (lvl 1-65 2001-2002), I agree EQ PvP was fun. But was EQ the only game with meaningful PvP and things worthwhile fighting over? Heck no.
Before you go buddying up with Dullahan, know that people are disagreeing with him praising EQ while claiming "you had little to nothing worthwhile to fight over in other pvp mmos." Even you should know that statement is rubbish.
Played: EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-LOTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO-BDO Waiting For: CU & Vanilla WoW
for the record, I even said I could see the idea of contested content working far better for a PVP game than a PVE one in regard to pantheon a few days ago. SO it's not like I don't see why many would find it fun.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
'Fun' is subjective, 'meaningful' is subjective, 'best' is subjective. I think we can agree on that.
Having said that, there are things that are a bit more factual. EQ wasn't built around PvP, it was pretty much a PvE game. EQ PvP approach was basically "ok you are now free to attack any other player, do the fuck you want" Does this approach turned out to be fun? Probably yes, it has a sort of Sandbox feel to it. But to be honest I wouldn't call that a good PvP design, you are just switching the PvP on in a PvE game. You can do that with every PvE game without any heavy code modification and turn said game into an EQ style PvP game.
Does a dedicated PvP design always guarantee a good PvP experience? In my experience, no. While my favorite PvP was Darkfall, which was designed around PvP, my second one was Vanilla WoW (I know...) PvP in Vanilla WoW was totally meaningless (IMO), no Arenas, no Battlegrounds, but raiding Cities and Villages, while totally pointless, was incredibly fun and addictive.
So even though EQ wasn't designed to be a PvP game, it might have been just as fun, if not more fun, than games designed around PvP. Sometimes the best things happen by chance.
I am going to play Pantheon for its PvE I could not care less about PvP. In my view there are better games suited for PvP than Pantheon, which should focus on PvE content. But if VR wants to slap some EQ style PvP on it, I am not going to complain.
In EQ1 I could go into main cities, sneak past guards, kill people at banks, loot an item and all coin. I once looted 10,000 Platinum off a guy. That was worth hundreds of dollars back then. Please tell me a fantasy 3D MMORPG that you can do such things in? The experience was amazing.
How could anyone consider that as fun?Maybe if the favor was reversed on you,then you might understand it is a dumb mechanic/idea and not fun at all.There is a reason we don't allow that in the real world it is a dumb idea.
pvp is also going to pit players against each other,how is that in any fashion creating a fun coherent community?
My concern is how they do the grouping because i did not much like the way SOE did their grouping as in all dungeons.I want a PVE grouping game that brings players TOGETHER and creates a friendly atmosphere and NOT a cutthroat atmosphere.
Having separate servers will NOT work for PVE/PVP split because what ALWAYS happens is the classes get nerfed and changed constantly to cater to a bad pvp design that is ALWAYS bad in mmorpg's.
If you don't see how that scenario I stated would be fun, I would suggest you stay off the Pantheon PvP server. The amount of skill, patience, risk involved with doing something like that is quite high.
It is all about risk vs reward. With great risk comes great reward. With no risk, comes no reward. The reward is fun. Modern MMORPG's have virtually zero risk.
Even if that one scenario doesn't float your boat, it's the idea that it CAN be done that is so engaging. I could come up with hundreds of stories similar to that one.
If you want a "coherent" community, once again definitely do not join the PvP server. Strife is captivating.
Have the Pantheon devs confirmed their PVP servers will be the same design as EQ1 circa 1999-2001?
I'd be surprised if there aren't a few changes from the original.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In EQ1 I could go into main cities, sneak past guards, kill people at banks, loot an item and all coin. I once looted 10,000 Platinum off a guy. That was worth hundreds of dollars back then. Please tell me a fantasy 3D MMORPG that you can do such things in? The experience was amazing.
How could anyone consider that as fun?Maybe if the favor was reversed on you,then you might understand it is a dumb mechanic/idea and not fun at all.There is a reason we don't allow that in the real world it is a dumb idea.
pvp is also going to pit players against each other,how is that in any fashion creating a fun coherent community?
My concern is how they do the grouping because i did not much like the way SOE did their grouping as in all dungeons.I want a PVE grouping game that brings players TOGETHER and creates a friendly atmosphere and NOT a cutthroat atmosphere.
Having separate servers will NOT work for PVE/PVP split because what ALWAYS happens is the classes get nerfed and changed constantly to cater to a bad pvp design that is ALWAYS bad in mmorpg's.
If you don't see how that scenario I stated would be fun, I would suggest you stay off the Pantheon PvP server. The amount of skill, patience, risk involved with doing something like that is quite high.
It is all about risk vs reward. With great risk comes great reward. With no risk, comes no reward. The reward is fun. Modern MMORPG's have virtually zero risk.
Even if that one scenario doesn't float your boat, it's the idea that it CAN be done that is so engaging. I could come up with hundreds of stories similar to that one.
If you want a "coherent" community, once again definitely do not join the PvP server. Strife is captivating.
Have the Pantheon devs confirmed their PVP servers will be the same design as EQ1 circa 1999-2001?
I'd be surprised if there aren't a few changes from the original.
They have barely even confirmed that there will be a pvp server at release. It wont get much focus.
Pantheon is primarily a PvE (player vs. environment) game. In fact, when
we say ‘environment’, we don’t just mean NPCs, but also contending with
climates and atmospheres, the very world itself. That said, we
understand that a portion of our target audience also enjoys player vs.
player. Our experience is that separate PvE and PvP shards is the
answer, however it is too early to predict how many PvP servers we would
launch with. It is also worth mentioning that, when we do eventually
focus on PvP we will do so such that tweaks and changes to classes and
races in order to make PvP more fun will not affect the balance of
Pantheon’s PvE experience.
Maybe you could elaborate. What's niche and why it doesn't fit that. I've sort of considered most games reinventing old school to be niche in appeal.
Um...would you consider EQ a niche product at it's heydays?
I guess not.
When WoW launched, it sucked in large amount of players from prettty much every major title, it was aiming same target audience and it was a better game.
Just because game is unappealing does not make it a niche product and that is exactly what Pantheon is - unappealing product.
Having said that, there are things that are a bit more factual. EQ wasn't built around PvP, it was pretty much a PvE game. EQ PvP approach was basically "ok you are now free to attack any other player, do the fuck you want" Does this approach turned out to be fun? Probably yes, it has a sort of Sandbox feel to it. But to be honest I wouldn't call that a good PvP design, you are just switching the PvP on in a PvE game. You can do that with every PvE game without any heavy code modification and turn said game into an EQ style PvP game.
That's all I was originally saying in regard to EQ PVP. it's like slapping FFA PVP into any PVE game without placing restrictions on the fighting. AOC was like that early on, of course players were different by then and demanded more restrictions. That said... at least AOC did have some features built around the PVP concept in it's keep sieges. Did EQ have anything that was built around PVP concepts? It doesn't seem so.
The case will probably be the same with Pantheon, if they have PVP at all, it will probably be your typical FFA PVP slapped onto the PVE game. As most of the mainstream offerings have been. That doesn't mean it can't be fun, as PVP is more about those who partake and how they approach the game than anything else.
Objectively speaking though It's hard for me to call any PVE game the best PVP game, if they don't have any dev focus on PVP. WHich most PVE games do not. Even ESO has that problem, and it has a decent PVP feature built in. WHich they've done little with since launch. It was the same story with SWG as well.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Torval said: I wouldn't have characterized EQ "back in the day" as niche amongst its peers because the entire concept was a gaming niche to begin with. MMORPGs weren't established enough at the time for any of them to be identified that way compared to their peers.
Now, I will say it's niche because it doesn't have mass appeal features. It has specific features intended to appeal to a specific niche - former EQ and Vanguard players. I consider that a niche in a now established genre. It has the potential to be a marketable subset of the whole.
Now you could be right that the features aren't appealing and it flops. You'd be right in that they couldn't establish a niche for the game. In my opinion pulling off this whole old school revamp design thing is going to be tough. There are a lot of expectations and heady opinions about it all.
1) You either talk about MMOs within video games market context or you talk about MMOs and within MMOs.
You are swicthing contexts to fit your narrative.
2) Failed games also do not have 'mass appeal features', does not make them "niche" tho.
I have already demonstrated this with genre evolution example.
3) "Establish niche for the game" - by that logic any game is a niche game because there are people playing it...
Torval said: I wouldn't have characterized EQ "back in the day" as niche amongst its peers because the entire concept was a gaming niche to begin with. MMORPGs weren't established enough at the time for any of them to be identified that way compared to their peers.
Now, I will say it's niche because it doesn't have mass appeal features. It has specific features intended to appeal to a specific niche - former EQ and Vanguard players. I consider that a niche in a now established genre. It has the potential to be a marketable subset of the whole.
Now you could be right that the features aren't appealing and it flops. You'd be right in that they couldn't establish a niche for the game. In my opinion pulling off this whole old school revamp design thing is going to be tough. There are a lot of expectations and heady opinions about it all.
1) You either talk about MMOs within video games market context or you talk about MMOs and within MMOs.
You are swicthing contexts to fit your narrative.
2) Failed games also do not have 'mass appeal features', does not make them "niche" tho.
I have already demonstrated this with genre evolution example.
3) "Establish niche for the game" - by that logic any game is a niche game because there are people playing it...
This is something that's rather hard to measure at this point. On the surface level I'd agree the game doesn't have an appealing feature set. At least as far as what it seems many seek in games today. That doesn't exactly mean that once it's out and can be fully explored that there isn't a good game to be found. It's niche appeal will greatly depend on the execution, especially in terms of meeting a demand that isn't being met. Not unlike EVE really.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Torval said: I wouldn't have characterized EQ "back in the day" as niche amongst its peers because the entire concept was a gaming niche to begin with. MMORPGs weren't established enough at the time for any of them to be identified that way compared to their peers.
Now, I will say it's niche because it doesn't have mass appeal features. It has specific features intended to appeal to a specific niche - former EQ and Vanguard players. I consider that a niche in a now established genre. It has the potential to be a marketable subset of the whole.
Now you could be right that the features aren't appealing and it flops. You'd be right in that they couldn't establish a niche for the game. In my opinion pulling off this whole old school revamp design thing is going to be tough. There are a lot of expectations and heady opinions about it all.
1) You either talk about MMOs within video games market context or you talk about MMOs and within MMOs.
You are swicthing contexts to fit your narrative.
2) Failed games also do not have 'mass appeal features', does not make them "niche" tho.
I have already demonstrated this with genre evolution example.
3) "Establish niche for the game" - by that logic any game is a niche game because there are people playing it...
This is something that's rather hard to measure at this point. On the surface level I'd agree the game doesn't have an appealing feature set. At least as far as what it seems many seek in games today. That doesn't exactly mean that once it's out and can be fully explored that there isn't a good game to be found. It's niche appeal will greatly depend on the execution, especially in terms of meeting a demand that isn't being met. Not unlike EVE really.
I'm struggling with the distinction. Say they somehow manage to obtain / retain 100K subs at the end of the 1st year post launch.
Did they manage to carve out a niche of players who favor a particular feature set or is it just a game with "unappealing" features?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Seeing how even Pantheon's own FAQ states clearly they are targeting "specific gamers with distinct preferences", I'd say that's the very definition of a niche don't you think?
"While some MMOs have been designed with the goal and desire to appeal to all gamers, all of the time, we at Visionary Realms believe the future of MMOs is all about making more focused games, targeting specific gamers with distinct preferences. "
Played: EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-LOTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO-BDO Waiting For: CU & Vanilla WoW
Comments
EQ1 PvP had some of the most amazing, effectual PvP ever in a MMORPG. You could kill anyone, in any zone, in the entire world.
I love DAoC, but the three entire worlds were locked away, only the frontiers (and later a single dungeon) were contested for PvP.
In EQ1 I could go into main cities, sneak past guards, kill people at banks, loot an item and all coin. I once looted 10,000 Platinum off a guy. That was worth hundreds of dollars back then. Please tell me a fantasy 3D MMORPG that you can do such things in? The experience was amazing.
The only other MMORPG's that have had somewhat decent PvP since are DAoC, Shadowbane, EvE, Darkfall.
Someone mentioned Black Desert, I almost shot latte out of my nose. Some people have no idea what they are talking about. Trivial nonsense. Lineage? LOL
EQ1 PvP was great because there were no safe zone, you lost an item, coin, you could be hunted down, you had to work together to out-smart your enemy, class knowledge was paramount, you had to fight players also while controlling spawns, raids, manage NPC's, adds, block zones, scout, manage corpse runs, rezzing, trains, exp loss, with intimate knowledge of the zones from memory (no maps).
I could go on and on why EQ1 PvP wrecks pretty much everything that has come since.
Dullahan you gonna play on the Pantheon PvP server with me?
How could anyone consider that as fun?Maybe if the favor was reversed on you,then you might understand it is a dumb mechanic/idea and not fun at all.There is a reason we don't allow that in the real world it is a dumb idea.
pvp is also going to pit players against each other,how is that in any fashion creating a fun coherent community?
My concern is how they do the grouping because i did not much like the way SOE did their grouping as in all dungeons.I want a PVE grouping game that brings players TOGETHER and creates a friendly atmosphere and NOT a cutthroat atmosphere.
Having separate servers will NOT work for PVE/PVP split because what ALWAYS happens is the classes get nerfed and changed constantly to cater to a bad pvp design that is ALWAYS bad in mmorpg's.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I still wouldn't say blocking folks progress is unique to EQ. While most games eventually came up with systems to end such a practice on PVP servers, a few have had that before such changes were implemented..
AOC as an example had a lot of ways to block folks from the progression they were seeking. People took advantage of a lot of the bottlenecks in it's zone design like blocking entrances to dungeons and things like that.
Attacking folks during conversations and blocking their access to quest givers is another example of that. Eventually enough people complained and they made a lot of that either bannable or impossible, due to mechanics that were put in like non-killable guards being placed in problem areas. It's open Dungeons were just as you describe on Tyranny all along.
Hell games like Darkfall and SWG allowed you to block people from playing at all (corpse camping) Ever PVP on Kashyyyk?. No one had fun there, that lost.... considering the only cloner was in a hard locked bottleneck you couldn't escape from.
The problem with this line of thinking though, is that most consider this bad design, not meaningful PVP.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I guarantee you that a high percentage of old school EQ1 players from the Zek servers would say the same thing and feel as I do. And it just wasn't PvP, it was how PvP and PvE interacted with one another that was so amazing.
Do you know how many attempts were made by individuals and team of players to revive that experience by creating Emu servers down through the years?
I am starting to think Dullahan and I are the only ones in this thread that have played Original EQ PvP in any meaningful capacity. Just dismissing it as "rose colored" glasses is just as much crap as trivial modern MMORPG's.
Not to sound rude, but I couldn't really take anyone serious that thought SWG had PvP even worth entering into a conversation.
they have their own EMU server ran by one of the more prominent guilds from back in the day (my guilds Rival actually). I also enjoyed how PVP and PVE worked together in that game, faction PVE giving PVP flags.
I wouldn't say it's objectively best though, I'd say that goes to either DAOC or EVE. As they had the better actual PVP designs. As well as more resources devoted to shaping those games for that purpose.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Curious, I would like to know peoples credentials in this thread when it comes to discussing EQ1 PvP and how "bad" it was.
It would be good to have a frame of reference.
My EQ1 experience:
Tallon Zek: 1999-2001, level 1-57; the best Necro on the server (I know, I am a modest man)
Sullon Zek: 2001-2002, level 1-60; Neutral team.
If you don't see how that scenario I stated would be fun, I would suggest you stay off the Pantheon PvP server. The amount of skill, patience, risk involved with doing something like that is quite high.
It is all about risk vs reward. With great risk comes great reward. With no risk, comes no reward. The reward is fun. Modern MMORPG's have virtually zero risk.
Even if that one scenario doesn't float your boat, it's the idea that it CAN be done that is so engaging. I could come up with hundreds of stories similar to that one.
If you want a "coherent" community, once again definitely do not join the PvP server. Strife is captivating.
Who said EQ's PVP was bad? It just wasn't the focus of EQ and you know that; just as it is with any PVE oriented MMO. They have PVP servers for a reason, and see little dev focus on PVP for a reason.
I've been in numerous PVP guilds over the years, I was always seeking good PVP, not once did anyone say you know what was great? EQ PVP. It just doesn't have the PVP following of games like UO, EVE, DAOC or AC's darktide server. THe latter I never even tried but have heard it's name 100 times in reference to PVP. Yet never EQ.. Why is that?
And it wasn't about dismissing Dullahan's points about why he liked EQ, it was his statement that it was the only "meaningful PVP back then". I simply disagreed with that statement.
While His reasons are his own, how can anyone dispute or dismiss an opinion? IF that's why he liked EQ pvp that's fine, but making blanket statements about all other games not having meaningful PVP along with it, that's something else entirely. OF course such statements are going to be challenged. His follow ups to those challenges weren't much better than the original statement, as he's the one that started cutting everything down that didn't fit his personal narrative. SO if you want to talk about dismissing folks, don't be a hypocrite, start with him....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Before you go buddying up with Dullahan, know that people are disagreeing with him praising EQ while claiming "you had little to nothing worthwhile to fight over in other pvp mmos." Even you should know that statement is rubbish.
Played: EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-LOTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO-BDO
Waiting For: CU & Vanilla WoW
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think we can agree on that.
Having said that, there are things that are a bit more factual.
EQ wasn't built around PvP, it was pretty much a PvE game.
EQ PvP approach was basically "ok you are now free to attack any other player, do the fuck you want"
Does this approach turned out to be fun?
Probably yes, it has a sort of Sandbox feel to it.
But to be honest I wouldn't call that a good PvP design, you are just switching the PvP on in a PvE game.
You can do that with every PvE game without any heavy code modification and turn said game into an EQ style PvP game.
Does a dedicated PvP design always guarantee a good PvP experience?
In my experience, no.
While my favorite PvP was Darkfall, which was designed around PvP, my second one was Vanilla WoW (I know...)
PvP in Vanilla WoW was totally meaningless (IMO), no Arenas, no Battlegrounds, but raiding Cities and Villages, while totally pointless, was incredibly fun and addictive.
So even though EQ wasn't designed to be a PvP game, it might have been just as fun, if not more fun, than games designed around PvP.
Sometimes the best things happen by chance.
I am going to play Pantheon for its PvE I could not care less about PvP.
In my view there are better games suited for PvP than Pantheon, which should focus on PvE content.
But if VR wants to slap some EQ style PvP on it, I am not going to complain.
I'd be surprised if there aren't a few changes from the original.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I guess not.
When WoW launched, it sucked in large amount of players from prettty much every major title, it was aiming same target audience and it was a better game.
Just because game is unappealing does not make it a niche product and that is exactly what Pantheon is - unappealing product.
The case will probably be the same with Pantheon, if they have PVP at all, it will probably be your typical FFA PVP slapped onto the PVE game. As most of the mainstream offerings have been. That doesn't mean it can't be fun, as PVP is more about those who partake and how they approach the game than anything else.
Objectively speaking though It's hard for me to call any PVE game the best PVP game, if they don't have any dev focus on PVP. WHich most PVE games do not. Even ESO has that problem, and it has a decent PVP feature built in. WHich they've done little with since launch. It was the same story with SWG as well.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
You are swicthing contexts to fit your narrative.
2) Failed games also do not have 'mass appeal features', does not make them "niche" tho.
I have already demonstrated this with genre evolution example.
3) "Establish niche for the game" - by that logic any game is a niche game because there are people playing it...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Did they manage to carve out a niche of players who favor a particular feature set or is it just a game with "unappealing" features?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The problem is "nerd/bias perception", people like to call "niche" game w/e they like or dislike to distinguish it from "other" games.
How many times did you hear: "Oh, the game is doing fine, it is a niche title, it isn't aiming for millions of players!"
Same story with Pentheon...
(Torval is prime example of such rhetorics)
"While some MMOs have been designed with the goal and desire to appeal to all gamers, all of the time, we at Visionary Realms believe the future of MMOs is all about making more focused games, targeting specific gamers with distinct preferences. "
Played: EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-LOTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO-BDO
Waiting For: CU & Vanilla WoW