OP is on point. Sort of sad to see that some have completely failed to understand the concept described - and instead just bawk at "rewarding failure".
Also I miss clicking on that agree button - please bring agree back
OP is on point. Sort of sad to see that some have completely failed to understand the concept described - and instead just bawk at "rewarding failure".
Also I miss clicking on that agree button - please bring agree back
And that Report button i'm certain you miss that
That's funny coming from you as you gave me the bars - remember that?
umm no i dont .......I recall you gettin those , but was Not my doing ... And one report cant do that anyhow , I have my list of warnings to reference, takes a lot to get barred...
This is really off topic. You guys should take this to PMs.
Nahh its not off topic we are testing the system , this is a Challenging way for me and Kano to say good mornin, To see who fails first and gets what lvl of warning from the Mods .. Its a game ya know
i kinda agree i cant stand playing games that punish me so hard that i quit out of frustration , i dont mind giving another try at the boss until i kill it , but losing exp , or items or anything but repair and time is just a no-no...
one of the reasons i stoped playing FFXIV was that i was having fun anymore, but raiding at high lvl was a pain , my main issue was consumables , potions mostly , having to craft (i despise crafgint in FFXIV ),if any1 raided in wow Legion , FFXIV is kinda like legion raiding at the begginign potions werent cheap at all , and ppl raged because prices were insane.....and Blizz fixed the issue upping the droprates of foxflower, (i made tons of gold but still...) , thats FFXIV raiding all the time , waste hours... or waste tons of gil ...i will come back in SB but casual mode , not gonna bother with raiding again , dont have time anyway
I don't agree on having participation trophy for content. The reason why you give them out in tournaments is because you are dealing with kids and you want to hook them into activating themselves. With mmorpg you are mostly dealing with adults and we play because we enjoy playing.
The first part of the problem is that you will have to give out a lot of rewards and I find that current mmorpg already give out way too much rewards which undermine the feeling when you get stuff. The other part is that people are likely to abuse the living shit out of it.
I would rather see developers focus on making fun content for more types of players instead of focusing so much on rewards.
Thats not what OP said - he is NOT talking about participation trophies at all.
The reward for beating challenging content is the feeling you have after beating challenging content. I don't agree with getting rewards before you beat stuff. It sucks being stuck on things but the feeling you get when its all done is much sweeter because of it.
And rewards for beating challenging content would remain in OPs post. That wouldnt change.
What you get with only rewarding success in challenging MMORPGs - is players only engage in content that is almost 100% safe and guaranteed victory - aka players end up playing easy and safe.
Almost nobody even attempts high risk encounters when failure is punished hard (xp loss, level loss, item loss etc...)
That was OPs point.
A challenging game would actually have a high % of players attempting challenging encounters, not facerolling the easiest mobs that give the best progression/xp for time spent.
Few players go for the toughest content because they lack the time and/or skills to beat it. In the tougher encounters you will have the time where you get wiped out fairly quickly but once you learn the pattern and get something down below 50% its just a matter of time until you kill it. This doesn't include encounters that have 3-5 phases.
If you look at early wow raiding, in vanilla you did have plenty of people that played places like zulgurub and molten core, very few even saw naxxramas. The reason had more to do with how badly they would wipe without making any progress and less to do with them not being rewarded.
Its a much better solution if games focus on having entry dungeons and raids so that people can gradually learn to play better instead of focusing on rewards. It would also be an improvement if games would focus more on getting people to team up instead of facerolling their way alone up to cap.
Players lacked skill and time - and that's it?
Funny how you omitted the biggest component - gear.
Gear in WoW made a huge difference.
If you look at the individual gear could have made a difference since there were definitely good players stuck in those groups. If you looked at the groups performance it wouldn't have changed a thing, there were far too many players that just weren't good enough.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
I think the main point to consider, is "what is challenge?"
Challenge can be facing a opponent with a 50/50 chance to win/lose, Challenge can also be a Jump Puzzle, Challenge can also be finding 100 coins from all over the game world.
Now some people may call that last one a 'grind" but grinds in their own way are a challenge, one of perseverance.
There are all kinds of ways to make things challenging, so when you talk of challenge, you need to address what kind of challenge you are talking about.
Then you have to ask "Who is this challenge for", when people talk of Challenge, often what they really want, is something that is easy enough for them to, but too hard for those they feel are below them.
The harsh truth is that when people discuss challenge, they seem to forget that No one really wants to get stonewalled by a game.
Does anybody else remember the days when there were things in games that you weren't expected to be able to beat without serious perseverance? That one level of that one game on that one difficulty mode was something you couldn't just breeze past or expect to beat without first getting really good at the game and then giving it your all and probably having some good luck in the process?
I remember that. And it wouldn't ruin the game for me if sometimes I needed to back down from that challenge and go do other things to hone my skills before attempting it again.
I mean, some non-MMO games still have things like that.I think the reason you don't see that in MMOs is in these words:
"Now some people may call that last one a 'grind" but grinds in their own way are a challenge, one of perseverance."
I would dispute that a grind is a meaningful challenge but grinds seem to be the only challenge in MMOs. Do this simple task enough times and out pops your reward!
I think the idea that there are things in the game you simply cannot complete unless you are the top 1% or less of players in the game would be utterly rejected by the majority themepark community.
I think the kind of people who tend to game's like sandboxes that are already a bit challenging to learn would embrace the idea as long as it was well implemented.
SandBox MMO's are pretty much the employment of grind for the sake of grind. "Punch this tree to Collect wood, Punch Wood to refine into Lumber, Etc, Etc, Etc" .. repeat ad nauseam.
Even, "Mastering a game" is a grind, What is "mastering a game" other then repeating the content till you memorize it, or burn out on it.
I remember games like Space Invades, that you would play till you died with no way to save your progress, wow that was some serious challenge... yah.. no one wants that back, just as things that can only be done by 1%, are only wanted by people that think they are the 1%, everyone else, thinks that stuff is crap and better off left dead.
As I said before the forum reset, what is really needed is better scaling of rewards - both XP and loot - that takes difficulty into consideration.
Most MMOs only do this for extreme cases and the rewards are typically just items exclusive to that content. I'm thinking of raids vs. less difficult group dungeons and the overworld.
But even in the mostly solo overworld of themeparks they could do a better job of rewarding content of varying difficulty in more appropriate ways.
For example, ESO has a range of mob difficulty from trivial to slightly challenging in the overworld but they make the XP and loot rewards so that it's far more efficient to grind packs of the trivial skeletons or bandits than to seek out the more challenging ones like trolls, mammoths, giants, etc. If they wanted to reward players who choose to do the harder content they could easily do it by using a better loot table and giving more XP for success when fighting those.
Dying while tackling harder content is just a byproduct of the increased risk. It doesn't need to be rewarded at all if they make the reward for the eventual success worth the trouble.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I don't agree on having participation trophy for content. The reason why you give them out in tournaments is because you are dealing with kids and you want to hook them into activating themselves. With mmorpg you are mostly dealing with adults and we play because we enjoy playing.
The first part of the problem is that you will have to give out a lot of rewards and I find that current mmorpg already give out way too much rewards which undermine the feeling when you get stuff. The other part is that people are likely to abuse the living shit out of it.
I would rather see developers focus on making fun content for more types of players instead of focusing so much on rewards.
Thats not what OP said - he is NOT talking about participation trophies at all.
He absolutley does say that ...
quote from OP "This nearly requires offering substantial rewards for failure.
Obviously, succeeding at content should be more rewarding than failing
at the same content. And players ought not be encouraged to try things
far above their level with no real hope of success. So even in failure,
how close you came to success should matter tremendously to the loot
you get"
By not defeating (winning) the encounter he still is promoting rewards for Failing (losing) the encounter ... this is the very definition of participation reward..
Hey you played kid and good effort but you failed ... heres a brand new shiny Trophy for ya , Now its not as nice and shiny and large as the the Trophy the group that actually completed and Won the encounter got .... But thx for tryin...here ya go for Participating ..
I don't agree on having participation trophy for content. The reason why you give them out in tournaments is because you are dealing with kids and you want to hook them into activating themselves. With mmorpg you are mostly dealing with adults and we play because we enjoy playing.
The first part of the problem is that you will have to give out a lot of rewards and I find that current mmorpg already give out way too much rewards which undermine the feeling when you get stuff. The other part is that people are likely to abuse the living shit out of it.
I would rather see developers focus on making fun content for more types of players instead of focusing so much on rewards.
Thats not what OP said - he is NOT talking about participation trophies at all.
He absolutley does say that ...
quote from OP "This nearly requires offering substantial rewards for failure.
Obviously, succeeding at content should be more rewarding than failing
at the same content. And players ought not be encouraged to try things
far above their level with no real hope of success. So even in failure,
how close you came to success should matter tremendously to the loot
you get"
By not defeating (winning) the encounter he still is promoting rewards for Failing (losing) the encounter ... this is the very definition of participation reward..
Hey you played kid and good effort but you failed ... heres a brand new shiny Trophy for ya , Now its not as nice and shiny and large as the the Trophy the group that actually completed and Won the encounter got .... But thx for tryin...here ya go for Participating ..
Yup. You're right. The only difference is that he's promoting a participation reward for the few who choose to attempt hard content.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I don't agree on having participation trophy for content. The reason why you give them out in tournaments is because you are dealing with kids and you want to hook them into activating themselves. With mmorpg you are mostly dealing with adults and we play because we enjoy playing.
The first part of the problem is that you will have to give out a lot of rewards and I find that current mmorpg already give out way too much rewards which undermine the feeling when you get stuff. The other part is that people are likely to abuse the living shit out of it.
I would rather see developers focus on making fun content for more types of players instead of focusing so much on rewards.
Thats not what OP said - he is NOT talking about participation trophies at all.
He absolutley does say that ...
quote from OP "This nearly requires offering substantial rewards for failure.
Obviously, succeeding at content should be more rewarding than failing
at the same content. And players ought not be encouraged to try things
far above their level with no real hope of success. So even in failure,
how close you came to success should matter tremendously to the loot
you get"
By not defeating (winning) the encounter he still is promoting rewards for Failing (losing) the encounter ... this is the very definition of participation reward..
Hey you played kid and good effort but you failed ... heres a brand new shiny Trophy for ya , Now its not as nice and shiny and large as the the Trophy the group that actually completed and Won the encounter got .... But thx for tryin...here ya go for Participating ..
Even with all the forum udates formatting still gets broken easily...grrrr
You are missing the point.
Participation trophy is guaranteed and given even at 0% effort, you just get it for showing up.
That is particpatiom trophy.
OP is not saying that.
OP is saying that effort should be rewarded according to % of success.
Example you show up and you do 5% - you get nothing
However if you were able to complete 50% you get rewards that are in line with 50% success.
Those who win the whole thing get everything.
That is what OP was talking about and that is very different from participation trophy
Nitpicky...... and you know it
Just showing up does not define participation .. thats weak ...coomon sense says so , and reducing it to that doesnt make it right ...
And there is No % of Success when you Fail ...
Failure is Failure , dam half a sissy fuggin attitude and approach .. "Well i would like a Trophy to i mean i did try .. wahhh "
This attitude is also what as deteriated the genre as well .. lets make it worse now ... Fuck it why not hand everyone a trophy for loggin in .. I mean wtf that is a challenge for some .....
And im not missing any point .. This system wants to reward for failing ... Thats a bad idea imo .... Maybe you are missing the point
I don't agree on having participation trophy for content. The reason why you give them out in tournaments is because you are dealing with kids and you want to hook them into activating themselves. With mmorpg you are mostly dealing with adults and we play because we enjoy playing.
The first part of the problem is that you will have to give out a lot of rewards and I find that current mmorpg already give out way too much rewards which undermine the feeling when you get stuff. The other part is that people are likely to abuse the living shit out of it.
I would rather see developers focus on making fun content for more types of players instead of focusing so much on rewards.
Thats not what OP said - he is NOT talking about participation trophies at all.
He absolutley does say that ...
quote from OP "This nearly requires offering substantial rewards for failure.
Obviously, succeeding at content should be more rewarding than failing
at the same content. And players ought not be encouraged to try things
far above their level with no real hope of success. So even in failure,
how close you came to success should matter tremendously to the loot
you get"
By not defeating (winning) the encounter he still is promoting rewards for Failing (losing) the encounter ... this is the very definition of participation reward..
Hey you played kid and good effort but you failed ... heres a brand new shiny Trophy for ya , Now its not as nice and shiny and large as the the Trophy the group that actually completed and Won the encounter got .... But thx for tryin...here ya go for Participating ..
Even with all the forum udates formatting still gets broken easily...grrrr
You are missing the point.
Participation trophy is guaranteed and given even at 0% effort, you just get it for showing up.
That is particpatiom trophy.
OP is not saying that.
OP is saying that effort should be rewarded according to % of success.
Example you show up and you do 5% - you get nothing
However if you were able to complete 50% you get rewards that are in line with 50% success.
Those who win the whole thing get everything.
That is what OP was talking about and that is very different from participation trophy
Nitpicky...... and you know it
Just showing up does not define participation .. thats weak ...coomon sense says so , and reducing it to that doesnt make it right ...
And there is No % of Success when you Fail ...
Failure is Failure , dam half a sissy fuggin attitude and approach .. "Well i would like a Trophy to i mean i did try .. wahhh "
This attitude is also what as deteriated the genre as well .. lets make it worse now ... Fuck it why not hand everyone a trophy for loggin in .. I mean wtf that is a challenge for some .....
And im not missing any point .. This system wants to reward for failing ... Thats a bad idea imo .... Maybe you are missing the point
Sorry Scorch. You're pretty off target. It's not nitpicky. Reward is there just for participating. The bar for success is so low that just showing up for most group content gets you through. The "challenging" stuff requires that you read the skills rather than randomly pressing buttons, but is in no way a real tactical challenge. At the very most all anyone is doing is memorizing encounter choreography (raids and challenge dungeons) because encounters are always the same. High end guilds put raids on farm mode because they memorized the scripting, not because they suddenly got that much better in a week of practice.
The same is true for pvp. There is an illusion of challenge because the character is human controlled and "could do anything". Except the players can't do anything. They can do the few things their character is designed to do and not much more. In most every pvp encounter there is a right way and multiple wrong ways to approach the conflict. In deep pvp there are 3 or 4 ways and multiple wrong ways.
It's rote. I'm not sure Quizz's way fixes it, but it's on the right track. What really needs to change is the design paradigms but that's risky and no guarantee of success.
No imo im not now you can argue with IMO all day but you would still be wrong .. There should be no rewards for failure ...
Yes, if you want a game to be challenging, there needs to be a difficult path that rewards the risks taken and the failures experienced along the way if and when the player eventually succeeds. I can agree with that.
However, that formula can still be applied to other groups of players. For example, does a casual solo player farm safe green con mobs, or take the risk posed by the orange con for a better reward?
Whether we are talking raid level or solo level, there should always be a chance to get better treasure for taking a higher risk.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
ESO had great mini boss fights at the end of quest lines, it was a challenge and often required several deaths before you could beat them or for you to over level the quest in order to beat them which meant coming back later to finish the quest. The Devs said they wanted questing to be more of a challenge or more of an epic battle.
At first, it felt refreshing to win such battles but after awhile with every end boss battle being like that it got to feel boring. It was like fighting an NPC five levels higher than you at the end of every questline. Also, the rewards felt pretty standard. you were doing extra work for standard rewards. You wouldn't get an immediate reward because the boss dropped nothing and there was nothing in its lair to gather. So at the end of this great battle, you had to turn in the quest for standard rewards. That didn't last long and all those bosses ended up getting nerfed.
I said all of that to say it's strange how some Devs want you to meet a challenge in the game and think the rewards for such challenges don't merit anything extra for the player. Players are into the fact that risk should be equal to reward.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Well DDO already has the feature in place that penalizes running lower level content and rewards higher level. Depending on how overleveled you are you'll take a big hit on how much of the final XP you lose and trying things harder than your level get's you more.
The only problem with that kind of system is you'd have to have 4 choices listed for each quest which DDO can do since they're all single instance dungeons, but wouldn't work in an open world.
As far as rewarding failure - NO. But I do think you SHOULD be able to fail. Try a quest say 3 times and if you can't get it, it's back to the quest giver for a different quest that rewards with less XP than the original (harder) one would have.
I don't agree on having participation trophy for content. The reason why you give them out in tournaments is because you are dealing with kids and you want to hook them into activating themselves. With mmorpg you are mostly dealing with adults and we play because we enjoy playing.
The first part of the problem is that you will have to give out a lot of rewards and I find that current mmorpg already give out way too much rewards which undermine the feeling when you get stuff. The other part is that people are likely to abuse the living shit out of it.
I would rather see developers focus on making fun content for more types of players instead of focusing so much on rewards.
Thats not what OP said - he is NOT talking about participation trophies at all.
He absolutley does say that ...
quote from OP "This nearly requires offering substantial rewards for failure.
Obviously, succeeding at content should be more rewarding than failing
at the same content. And players ought not be encouraged to try things
far above their level with no real hope of success. So even in failure,
how close you came to success should matter tremendously to the loot
you get"
By not defeating (winning) the encounter he still is promoting rewards for Failing (losing) the encounter ... this is the very definition of participation reward..
Hey you played kid and good effort but you failed ... heres a brand new shiny Trophy for ya , Now its not as nice and shiny and large as the the Trophy the group that actually completed and Won the encounter got .... But thx for tryin...here ya go for Participating ..
Even with all the forum udates formatting still gets broken easily...grrrr
You are missing the point.
Participation trophy is guaranteed and given even at 0% effort, you just get it for showing up.
That is particpatiom trophy.
OP is not saying that.
OP is saying that effort should be rewarded according to % of success.
Example you show up and you do 5% - you get nothing
However if you were able to complete 50% you get rewards that are in line with 50% success.
Those who win the whole thing get everything.
That is what OP was talking about and that is very different from participation trophy
Nitpicky...... and you know it
Just showing up does not define participation .. thats weak ...coomon sense says so , and reducing it to that doesnt make it right ...
And there is No % of Success when you Fail ...
Failure is Failure , dam half a sissy fuggin attitude and approach .. "Well i would like a Trophy to i mean i did try .. wahhh "
This attitude is also what as deteriated the genre as well .. lets make it worse now ... Fuck it why not hand everyone a trophy for loggin in .. I mean wtf that is a challenge for some .....
And im not missing any point .. This system wants to reward for failing ... Thats a bad idea imo .... Maybe you are missing the point
Sorry Scorch. You're pretty off target. It's not nitpicky. Reward is there just for participating. The bar for success is so low that just showing up for most group content gets you through. The "challenging" stuff requires that you read the skills rather than randomly pressing buttons, but is in no way a real tactical challenge. At the very most all anyone is doing is memorizing encounter choreography (raids and challenge dungeons) because encounters are always the same. High end guilds put raids on farm mode because they memorized the scripting, not because they suddenly got that much better in a week of practice.
The same is true for pvp. There is an illusion of challenge because the character is human controlled and "could do anything". Except the players can't do anything. They can do the few things their character is designed to do and not much more. In most every pvp encounter there is a right way and multiple wrong ways to approach the conflict. In deep pvp there are 3 or 4 ways and multiple wrong ways.
It's rote. I'm not sure Quizz's way fixes it, but it's on the right track. What really needs to change is the design paradigms but that's risky and no guarantee of success.
No imo im not now you can argue with IMO all day but you would still be wrong .. There should be no rewards for failure ...
Okay, so now we have no failure. Happy with that? If you can't reward failure remove it because people want to feel successful. If they don't they'll find some game to play where they are. All of the mmos we play do this. Every single one. So you don't have a game that doesn't reward everyone, you just moved the goal post.
There is always failure .. Thats why the its a small % that completes the highest lvl content ...
And guess what .. No matter what you do these guilds will figure out and put on farm mode any and all content regardless of obstacles and hurdles you put before them .. So now you are back where you started ..
Just showing up does not define participation .. thats weak ...coomon sense says so , and reducing it to that doesnt make it right ...
And there is No % of Success when you Fail ...
Failure is Failure , dam half a sissy fuggin attitude and approach .. "Well i would like a Trophy to i mean i did try .. wahhh "
This attitude is also what as deteriated the genre as well .. lets make it worse now ... Fuck it why not hand everyone a trophy for loggin in .. I mean wtf that is a challenge for some .....
And im not missing any point .. This system wants to reward for failing ... Thats a bad idea imo .... Maybe you are missing the point
Sorry Scorch. You're pretty off target. It's not nitpicky. Reward is there just for participating. The bar for success is so low that just showing up for most group content gets you through. The "challenging" stuff requires that you read the skills rather than randomly pressing buttons, but is in no way a real tactical challenge. At the very most all anyone is doing is memorizing encounter choreography (raids and challenge dungeons) because encounters are always the same. High end guilds put raids on farm mode because they memorized the scripting, not because they suddenly got that much better in a week of practice.
The same is true for pvp. There is an illusion of challenge because the character is human controlled and "could do anything". Except the players can't do anything. They can do the few things their character is designed to do and not much more. In most every pvp encounter there is a right way and multiple wrong ways to approach the conflict. In deep pvp there are 3 or 4 ways and multiple wrong ways.
It's rote. I'm not sure Quizz's way fixes it, but it's on the right track. What really needs to change is the design paradigms but that's risky and no guarantee of success.
No imo im not now you can argue with IMO all day but you would still be wrong .. There should be no rewards for failure ...
Okay, so now we have no failure. Happy with that? If you can't reward failure remove it because people want to feel successful. If they don't they'll find some game to play where they are. All of the mmos we play do this. Every single one. So you don't have a game that doesn't reward everyone, you just moved the goal post.
There is always failure .. Thats why the its a small % that completes the highest lvl content ...
And guess what .. No matter what you do these guilds will figure out and put on farm mode any and all content regardless of obstacles and hurdles you put before them .. So now you are back where you started ..
That's because there is not challenge. It's an illusion.
A small percent complete the content, but they all complete it. A small percent participate because of the logistical setup not that the content is that much harder.
And again, no. Content is put on farm mode because it's designed that way. It could be designed so it's not easily memorized and overcome, but then no one would play it.
You drank the coolaid dude. You believe that raid content is actually so much harder that people can't do it. It's just that people want the rewards, but they don't like that kind of content and don't want to learn it.
The same thing applies to pvp. There are the "pvp gods" that seem so amazing, but in reality it's just the people that like pvp contrasted to those who don't but are there slogging through to get the reward.
Why do devs do that? To increase the life and use of all content, thereby minimizing how much content they need to produce each cycle. It's also there because some play styles need those extras as fodder for those who like it. Bigger raid and pvp pools means the people who like that have more plebes to choose from to fill in the holes in their groups.
Yes, so now we're back where we started. People like an illusion of challenge and don't want that boat rocked. Quizz is rocking the boat.
I dont see anything in the OP that will change , player approach in any way .. You will still have..
Casuals .. attempting X lvl of Content ...
Midrange .. going thru the content to Midrange ..
Hardcore .........yes going thru the Hardcore content ..
And Elites .. going thru to the end of the hardest content in game .. and yes putting it on farm mode in under 30 days ..
And each of the player groups will still get rewards relative to the content they do .. Just like they do now ..
Now one thing i always thought would be a great way to swing the pendulum the other way and put some challenge into Dungeon runs .. Is for ex,..
Just as in Wow , when players que for a Dungeon .. let players also que to play the Boss mob and his minions .. using the mobs skills .. Now that would add a lvl of inerest and challenge .. No scripted Boss encounters ...
And also , i still would like to see these games steal apage from UO and when a mob kills you it gets to loot a random item from your inventory ..
I think I fall more into Xodic's camp - you shouldn't necessarily reward failure. But you are right, more difficult content should be more rewarding than trivial content.
There could be tiers of success - meeting the bare minimum nets you a baseline reward, meeting some additional objectives gives you +3 reward, additional objectives + handicaps +5, etc.
But yeah, you shouldn't necessarily outright reward failure. I think there needs to be some baseline measure of "success" that people need to strive for. Even if that's just whatever threshold you determine to be "trying with legitimate effort" and not necessarily beating the final boss/killing xxx/whatever.
If you want to call it giving partial rewards for partial success, then I'm on board with that. It's certainly important not to reward miserable failures that had no chance of success.
I'm seeing a lot of games that let you revive without penalty by using cash shop items. Or you can revive at another location and pay for repairs.
Because costing you money isn't a penalty? As I argued in another thread quite some time ago, I favor the "pay to lose" approach as it encourages developers to scale the difficulty such that it's hard enough that sometimes you'll lose.
Now one thing i always thought would be a great way to swing the pendulum the other way and put some challenge into Dungeon runs .. Is for ex,..
Just as in Wow , when players que for a Dungeon .. let players also que to play the Boss mob and his minions .. using the mobs skills .. Now that would add a lvl of inerest and challenge .. No scripted Boss encounters ...
And also , i still would like to see these games steal apage from UO and when a mob kills you it gets to loot a random item from your inventory ..
In the first instance unless something highly valued and necessary is completely gated behind that experience then people will choose to run regular dungeons instead.
In your second example that only leads to safe play and less risk taking.
Those sorts of ideas have both been tried in some form or another. They didn't solve the problem, if there is one.
1st ... its the same stuff gated behind any Boss encounter now , the rewards are the same .. the Boss and minions are the same .. Just players control them .. So why would anyone wanting those items choose differenlty .. Doesnt make sense.. you dont give them a choice .. thats the point .. Ohh but then if they fail or get 50% we want to get a cookie for trying .. Thats the BS i dont like
2nd It never stopped me or anyone i know from taking risks in UO and risk was much higher ..
Twitch Tv was purchased for a reason,streaming is HUGE and Twitch is making millions.Esports is all about money and again is quite big and almost ALL of the successful games are tied into streaming and Esports. Point being ,neither failure or success matters,it is about the $$$ aspect of gaming,which is really sad because as long as money is driving games,we will never see quality games,except on rare occasion,a SINGLE player game.
Dota,LOL,Hearthstone,Playergrounds,Counterstrike,none of those game have any risk versus reward factors,the ONLY thing that matters is winning to improve viewer count,get sponsors,get into tournaments and make money.The days of risk -reward...FUN,seems the REAL gaming has been lost,so like the rest of our world,$$$ ruins everything.Even the QUALITY of games do not matter,if there is a large player base already supporting a game,there is ZERO incentive for a developer to improve or add content to a game,the ONLY content that gets added is cash shops.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I feel like people are getting caught up on the wording and missing the deeper concepts. Anyone remember the mini-games back in the day that Zelda had? The archery range, the bomb bowling, etc.
If you got some super high score there was generally a prize, the best prize in the game. Good scores were also rewarded though. You didn't have to get the absolute max score to get 20 rupees from a 10 rupee game.
Nobody said this content was "rewarding failure." It was rewarding success. It's just that in those games success came on a scale. That's not part of the "participation trophy" generation. If you go into work and you do a passable job, you don't get fired. If you do a pretty good job, you are given moderate rewards. And if you do an excellent job you get a raise and a bonus. And that's not some new form of coddling afforded to millennials, that's how things have always worked.
Most MMO content these days is pass or fail. You kill the boss at the end, or you don't. The issue is in a pass or fail game where only pass is rewarded, you have to set the difficulty low enough so that everyone can pass fairly easily if they are the right level or people get cranky. I remember in SWTOR I stayed 3-5 levels behind the content I did just so it would actually be fun.
And the big thing that should have all you baby boomers up in arms is that system does not reward excellence.
But things like the archery range in Zelda games, those were not simple pass or fail games. There were varying degrees of success or failure, and the highest degrees of success were sometimes quite challenging. You really had to practice that game and get good at it for the final prize sometimes.
We need to implement some more content into MMOs where success comes on a varying scale not so that failure can be rewarded, but so that exceptionalism can.
UO already has a system much like this in place , The more difficult the mob the higher reward for Karma/Fame and Loot tables ...
The problem, as explained in the original thread, is that if you rely solely on stronger loot for harder mobs in a game with progression, you have to scale the loot up really, really fast.
For example, suppose you can fight mobs your level and beat them 98% of the time. Or you can fight mobs 2 levels above you and beat them 50% of the time. The mobs 2 levels above you also take you 50% longer to kill. In order to make it barely more profitable to fight the higher level, harder mobs, they have to offer triple the loot of the lower level mobs. If you got your reward for fighting them even if you lost, you only have to offer 50% more loot.
But look what happens to the loot tables if you chain that. If loot triples every two levels, then mobs 40 levels above you must offer about 3.5 billion times as much loot as mobs your level. If it's only 1.5 times the loot per 2 levels, then 40 levels higher only takes 3.3 thousand times as much loot.
That kind of loot scaling really breaks things when you bring grouping into account. You could easily end up with the Vanilla WoW problem in which most non-endgame grouping is a high level running low levels through stuff. Why not get some friend 60 levels above you to help you kill mobs 40 levels above you? One mob alone might get you more loot than you'd get over the course of the next 30 levels cumulatively on your own.
Now, you could try to disable grouping with characters that far apart in level. But if someone 10 levels above you grouping with you lets you beat mobs 6 levels above you, getting 27 times the loot from loot tripling every two levels is sure a whole lot more than getting 3.3 times the loot. And if you can only group with players that match your level exactly, you fix that problem but create other problems of trying to create groups.
Even apart from the problems of grouping, think about the beggars. If a trivial amount of gold to max level players is more than a new character can expect to earn cumulatively until he gets within 10 levels of the cap, why not beg for it? And then all but the endgame turns into a matter of begging, not playing the game. Surely that's not what we want.
This problem is greatly mitigated if a game has only pretty mild progression. If two newly created characters are together stronger than a single max-level player in full best-in-slot gear, you don't need to scale rewards so hard. A lot of players want more progression than that, though, and games that do have progression need to work, too.
Comments
And that Report button i'm certain you miss that
umm no i dont .......I recall you gettin those , but was Not my doing ... And one report cant do that anyhow , I have my list of warnings to reference, takes a lot to get barred...
Extreme Failure gets you 7 points
Moderate .....................5
Low lvl fail ......................3
Alll points carry for 1 week
one of the reasons i stoped playing FFXIV was that i was having fun anymore, but raiding at high lvl was a pain , my main issue was consumables , potions mostly , having to craft (i despise crafgint in FFXIV ),if any1 raided in wow Legion , FFXIV is kinda like legion raiding at the begginign potions werent cheap at all , and ppl raged because prices were insane.....and Blizz fixed the issue upping the droprates of foxflower, (i made tons of gold but still...) , thats FFXIV raiding all the time , waste hours... or waste tons of gil ...i will come back in SB but casual mode , not gonna bother with raiding again , dont have time anyway
Even, "Mastering a game" is a grind, What is "mastering a game" other then repeating the content till you memorize it, or burn out on it.
I remember games like Space Invades, that you would play till you died with no way to save your progress, wow that was some serious challenge... yah.. no one wants that back, just as things that can only be done by 1%, are only wanted by people that think they are the 1%, everyone else, thinks that stuff is crap and better off left dead.
Most MMOs only do this for extreme cases and the rewards are typically just items exclusive to that content. I'm thinking of raids vs. less difficult group dungeons and the overworld.
But even in the mostly solo overworld of themeparks they could do a better job of rewarding content of varying difficulty in more appropriate ways.
For example, ESO has a range of mob difficulty from trivial to slightly challenging in the overworld but they make the XP and loot rewards so that it's far more efficient to grind packs of the trivial skeletons or bandits than to seek out the more challenging ones like trolls, mammoths, giants, etc. If they wanted to reward players who choose to do the harder content they could easily do it by using a better loot table and giving more XP for success when fighting those.
Dying while tackling harder content is just a byproduct of the increased risk. It doesn't need to be rewarded at all if they make the reward for the eventual success worth the trouble.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
He absolutley does say that ...
quote from OP "This nearly requires offering substantial rewards for failure. Obviously, succeeding at content should be more rewarding than failing at the same content. And players ought not be encouraged to try things far above their level with no real hope of success. So even in failure, how close you came to success should matter tremendously to the loot you get"
By not defeating (winning) the encounter he still is promoting rewards for Failing (losing) the encounter ... this is the very definition of participation reward..
Hey you played kid and good effort but you failed ... heres a brand new shiny Trophy for ya , Now its not as nice and shiny and large as the the Trophy the group that actually completed and Won the encounter got .... But thx for tryin...here ya go for Participating ..
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Just showing up does not define participation .. thats weak ...coomon sense says so , and reducing it to that doesnt make it right ...
And there is No % of Success when you Fail ...
Failure is Failure , dam half a sissy fuggin attitude and approach .. "Well i would like a Trophy to i mean i did try .. wahhh "
This attitude is also what as deteriated the genre as well .. lets make it worse now ... Fuck it why not hand everyone a trophy for loggin in .. I mean wtf that is a challenge for some .....
And im not missing any point .. This system wants to reward for failing ... Thats a bad idea imo .... Maybe you are missing the point
However, that formula can still be applied to other groups of players. For example, does a casual solo player farm safe green con mobs, or take the risk posed by the orange con for a better reward?
Whether we are talking raid level or solo level, there should always be a chance to get better treasure for taking a higher risk.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
At first, it felt refreshing to win such battles but after awhile with every end boss battle being like that it got to feel boring. It was like fighting an NPC five levels higher than you at the end of every questline. Also, the rewards felt pretty standard. you were doing extra work for standard rewards. You wouldn't get an immediate reward because the boss dropped nothing and there was nothing in its lair to gather. So at the end of this great battle, you had to turn in the quest for standard rewards. That didn't last long and all those bosses ended up getting nerfed.
I said all of that to say it's strange how some Devs want you to meet a challenge in the game and think the rewards for such challenges don't merit anything extra for the player. Players are into the fact that risk should be equal to reward.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
The only problem with that kind of system is you'd have to have 4 choices listed for each quest which DDO can do since they're all single instance dungeons, but wouldn't work in an open world.
As far as rewarding failure - NO. But I do think you SHOULD be able to fail. Try a quest say 3 times and if you can't get it, it's back to the quest giver for a different quest that rewards with less XP than the original (harder) one would have.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
And guess what .. No matter what you do these guilds will figure out and put on farm mode any and all content regardless of obstacles and hurdles you put before them .. So now you are back where you started ..
Casuals .. attempting X lvl of Content ...
Midrange .. going thru the content to Midrange ..
Hardcore .........yes going thru the Hardcore content ..
And Elites .. going thru to the end of the hardest content in game .. and yes putting it on farm mode in under 30 days ..
And each of the player groups will still get rewards relative to the content they do .. Just like they do now ..
Just as in Wow , when players que for a Dungeon .. let players also que to play the Boss mob and his minions .. using the mobs skills .. Now that would add a lvl of inerest and challenge .. No scripted Boss encounters ...
And also , i still would like to see these games steal apage from UO and when a mob kills you it gets to loot a random item from your inventory ..
2nd It never stopped me or anyone i know from taking risks in UO and risk was much higher ..
Twitch Tv was purchased for a reason,streaming is HUGE and Twitch is making millions.Esports is all about money and again is quite big and almost ALL of the successful games are tied into streaming and Esports.
Point being ,neither failure or success matters,it is about the $$$ aspect of gaming,which is really sad because as long as money is driving games,we will never see quality games,except on rare occasion,a SINGLE player game.
Dota,LOL,Hearthstone,Playergrounds,Counterstrike,none of those game have any risk versus reward factors,the ONLY thing that matters is winning to improve viewer count,get sponsors,get into tournaments and make money.The days of risk -reward...FUN,seems the REAL gaming has been lost,so like the rest of our world,$$$ ruins everything.Even the QUALITY of games do not matter,if there is a large player base already supporting a game,there is ZERO incentive for a developer to improve or add content to a game,the ONLY content that gets added is cash shops.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
If you got some super high score there was generally a prize, the best prize in the game. Good scores were also rewarded though. You didn't have to get the absolute max score to get 20 rupees from a 10 rupee game.
Nobody said this content was "rewarding failure." It was rewarding success. It's just that in those games success came on a scale. That's not part of the "participation trophy" generation. If you go into work and you do a passable job, you don't get fired. If you do a pretty good job, you are given moderate rewards. And if you do an excellent job you get a raise and a bonus. And that's not some new form of coddling afforded to millennials, that's how things have always worked.
Most MMO content these days is pass or fail. You kill the boss at the end, or you don't. The issue is in a pass or fail game where only pass is rewarded, you have to set the difficulty low enough so that everyone can pass fairly easily if they are the right level or people get cranky. I remember in SWTOR I stayed 3-5 levels behind the content I did just so it would actually be fun.
And the big thing that should have all you baby boomers up in arms is that system does not reward excellence.
But things like the archery range in Zelda games, those were not simple pass or fail games. There were varying degrees of success or failure, and the highest degrees of success were sometimes quite challenging. You really had to practice that game and get good at it for the final prize sometimes.
We need to implement some more content into MMOs where success comes on a varying scale not so that failure can be rewarded, but so that exceptionalism can.
For example, suppose you can fight mobs your level and beat them 98% of the time. Or you can fight mobs 2 levels above you and beat them 50% of the time. The mobs 2 levels above you also take you 50% longer to kill. In order to make it barely more profitable to fight the higher level, harder mobs, they have to offer triple the loot of the lower level mobs. If you got your reward for fighting them even if you lost, you only have to offer 50% more loot.
But look what happens to the loot tables if you chain that. If loot triples every two levels, then mobs 40 levels above you must offer about 3.5 billion times as much loot as mobs your level. If it's only 1.5 times the loot per 2 levels, then 40 levels higher only takes 3.3 thousand times as much loot.
That kind of loot scaling really breaks things when you bring grouping into account. You could easily end up with the Vanilla WoW problem in which most non-endgame grouping is a high level running low levels through stuff. Why not get some friend 60 levels above you to help you kill mobs 40 levels above you? One mob alone might get you more loot than you'd get over the course of the next 30 levels cumulatively on your own.
Now, you could try to disable grouping with characters that far apart in level. But if someone 10 levels above you grouping with you lets you beat mobs 6 levels above you, getting 27 times the loot from loot tripling every two levels is sure a whole lot more than getting 3.3 times the loot. And if you can only group with players that match your level exactly, you fix that problem but create other problems of trying to create groups.
Even apart from the problems of grouping, think about the beggars. If a trivial amount of gold to max level players is more than a new character can expect to earn cumulatively until he gets within 10 levels of the cap, why not beg for it? And then all but the endgame turns into a matter of begging, not playing the game. Surely that's not what we want.
This problem is greatly mitigated if a game has only pretty mild progression. If two newly created characters are together stronger than a single max-level player in full best-in-slot gear, you don't need to scale rewards so hard. A lot of players want more progression than that, though, and games that do have progression need to work, too.