I really don't understand why people get so hung up on combat style in the first place. There's all kinds of combat types out there yet we tend to boil it down to 2. You've got slow Tab targetting like EQ and FFXI, GCD based like WoW and Rift, and more engaging like AoC. On the action side you have slower types like ESO, middle ground types like Terra and BDO, and a more FPS like system in Darkfall. Then you have more hybrid like systems such as can be found in GW2. In the end, I don't think I've ever quit an MMO due to its combat style choice, but I have quit because combat was all they managed to do well. That said, I tend to prefer the old tab target style of EQ and FFXI because it lets me veg out and take in the world, interact with friends, and play strategically. That's what MMOs are about, IMO.
I prefer tab target combat because I usually suck at the fast paced action combat games. I also play mostly support and healer classes that tend to make you react to the situations around you, which I prefer compared to having to learn DPS rotations. I find healers are cumbersome to play in most of the action combat MMO's I've tried.
Tab targeting is popular because it allows players to play the hero without requiring them to be the hero. Personal skill was never what an RPG was supposed to be about. It was about experiencing a story and advancing largely by way of time devotion. Tab targetting combat was more about knowledge, experience and preparation, whereas action combat is more about reaction time.
Its simple and easy to use. All these other systems are just pretenders. They are always trying to out do each other in their cleverness and always missing the mark. The hate tab targeting gets always makes me laugh on sites like this.
Tab targetting allows for slower paced, more tactical combat.
For example vanilla EQ1 back in 1999 had 6second combat rounds - by todays standards that is super slow.
But the slow pace and tab-target nature allowed for players to type in chat window while in combat. It catered to the social nature of early EQ1 a lot.
I agree with this. I played FFXI since 2003 till now and been playing FFXIV since 2010 also and when I see people complaining about FFXIV being slow I know right away they come from wow or other game like wow and never played FFXI. To me FFXIV is too fast and give you no time to type hence almost all FC(guilds) require members to use some kind of VOIP. You can't stop pressing buttons or move around for a second or you will lack in DPS/healing/tanking or die from aoe or other mob move. Typing can only be done if you just sit and do nothing or maybe when crafting.
Ever try and aim with either gpu or internet lag?It is not only very tough but painful/frustrating. From the developers side,they give us a lot more tools because are hands/eyes are not tied to aiming and shooting.
You would not be able to run several macros,or hotbar icons as well as other key presses if your eyes have to stay on the target,not unless you are really good on the keyboard of which i am not. I like non tab in a fps game that is just my wits and aim along with a few buttons for weapon changes.That leads to the other often talked about topic of pvp in rpg.Well tab target in pvp would be silly but i don't want to ruin everything a great mmorpg can do for me to cater to pvp and why i have said many times,the two cannot work together..ever.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Tab targetting allows for slower paced, more tactical combat.
For example vanilla EQ1 back in 1999 had 6second combat rounds - by todays standards that is super slow.
But the slow pace and tab-target nature allowed for players to type in chat window while in combat. It catered to the social nature of early EQ1 a lot.
I'll be honest, I am not sure the attraction to "tab-target", as games like GW2, Trove, and some others, use assisted directional targeting for melee (some even use it for ranged), but, as i see it, there is a whole demographic of people make and download aim-bots for FPS like games, that kinda tells me that there is not a lot of people that excel at, or even enjoy, "Action-combat", even if they claim such.
Ah...I disagree, remove tab target in old Vanilla WoW content I am sure it will be just as technical.
Slow is not always good, leaving without the challenge of critical thinking. Speed can be bad too. Pick your poison.
The EQ1 social nature is a step ahead or faster than RTSRPG, and you can see that in modern games like Pillars of Eternity.
Seriously there is nothing challenging about PAUSE, SAVE,...oh I fucked up.... PAUSE, LOAD....rinse repeat!
@DMKanoa you seem like a pretty smart cat I expected better from you.
honestly its because, hit detection was not as viable on older machine and slower net speeds, these days its because its a familiar and comfortable style of combat that lets people play and enjoy the game even if they dont have the best reflexes. it also allows for more variety of skills as since most people dont use MMO mouses and fast pace games limit your ability to use a large number of different abilities at once due to less access to buttons since u cant take your hand of mouse or movement controls. think about it how many of the game that dont use tab targeting have more then 4-5 abilities available at a time, most use hot bat swapping to add to that number but with limitations, personally i dislike game that let me learn tons of skill but limit me to using only a few its hard to make chars that can handle a wide range of situations that way.
if you want to play a FPS then play a FPS this limitation on usable abilities makes more sense here but for a MMO options and char customization are more important.
P.S. not that i dislike FPS its just a different game style
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
There are reasons for something being popular, it must promote an aspect of gaming that other people who do not like that something find irrelevant or not of interest to them.
Tab targetting allows for people to play at a less frenetic pace than using the pointer to target and I also noticed most non tab target games to be associated with action combat which is way more twitchy than games with tab targetting. Tab targetting seems to be more strategic as it involves more time to pick courses of actions and allows for more thought simply because there is more time in between actions. It does not mean it is more fun it depends on the person playing. Some people find this type of gaming way to slow and boring and unchallenging so they eschew it.
I think the market should continue to cater to different tastes otherwise you lose people over time and it is not good to lose players so I feel it is best (selfish since I like less frenetic pace too) for there to be continued development of these types games.
I felt its more about the technology. Anything require aiming is suscepible to aim bot. Anything require quick reaction, you have latency issue. Alsoit is a turnoff for people with slow reaction.
I felt its more about the technology. Anything require aiming is suscepible to aim bot. Anything require quick reaction, you have latency issue. Alsoit is a turnoff for people with slow reaction.
Since when has Tab Target game never been plagued with hacks?
Tab targetting allows for slower paced, more tactical combat.
For example vanilla EQ1 back in 1999 had 6second combat rounds - by todays standards that is super slow.
But the slow pace and tab-target nature allowed for players to type in chat window while in combat. It catered to the social nature of early EQ1 a lot.
In the beginning, MMO's ran on dial up. Tab to target and single stroke key binds made sense. Why it's still popular is human nature. We hate change.
Tab targetting allows for slower paced, more tactical combat.
For example vanilla EQ1 back in 1999 had 6second combat rounds - by todays standards that is super slow.
But the slow pace and tab-target nature allowed for players to type in chat window while in combat. It catered to the social nature of early EQ1 a lot.
I'll be honest, I am not sure the attraction to "tab-target", as games like GW2, Trove, and some others, use assisted directional targeting for melee (some even use it for ranged), but, as i see it, there is a whole demographic of people make and download aim-bots for FPS like games, that kinda tells me that there is not a lot of people that excel at, or even enjoy, "Action-combat", even if they claim such.
Ah...I disagree, remove tab target in old Vanilla WoW content I am sure it will be just as technical.
Slow is not always good, leaving without the challenge of critical thinking. Speed can be bad too. Pick your poison.
The EQ1 social nature is a step ahead or faster than RTSRPG, and you can see that in modern games like Pillars of Eternity.
Seriously there is nothing challenging about PAUSE, SAVE,...oh I fucked up.... PAUSE, LOAD....rinse repeat!
@DMKanoa you seem like a pretty smart cat I expected better from you.
Let's see....@DMKano got 7 agrees...and you got laughed at....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think there are many reasons why it's still popular.
1) Brains vs Brawn
Do you like to win because you're smart, or win because you're strong? Tab-targetting systems are usually designed to make you think critically about your approach to combat. Sure, a lot of games end up being quite basic in that you just need to execute a rotation, but tab-targetting can offer a depth not seen in action combat games. The best implementations of tab-targetting put great emphasis on making meaningful decisions during combat - giving you hard choices on what skill to use next, or whether to blow a long cooldown etc.
This is why I personally prefer tab-targetting - I like winning because I fully understand the mechanics and made the right decisions at the right time.
This compares to more action-orientated games which tend to have much fewer skills, so winning is mostly a case of having good physical reactions. Building up muscle memory requires no brain power, just time, which is why it doesn't appeal to me.
2) Depth
The longest it has taken me to "master" (as in, 100% understand the game + my class) an action combat game has been about 5 hours. From then on, its all about practice in order to build up muscle memory and improve reaction times. This is, unfortunately, just a side effect of having a small amount of skills.
So, what tends to happen is I start a game, have great fun and satisfaction for the first 5-20 hours. Then, boredom kicks in. I'm no longer learning anything, just improving physical reactions. My brain is essentially disengaged and just going through the motions. Even in the hardest content, the challenge comes from having to concentrate for 5 minutes, rather than any intellectual challenge from the bosses or mechanics.
Tab-targetting systems, with their massive amount of skills, take far longer to master (assuming average or above implementation). If you have 40+ skills, it takes longer to learn what each one does and longer to figure out the best synergies between skills. Even once you have learnt everything about your class, the vast choice of skills during combat keeps your brain engaged.
A good implementation (like vanilla lotro) might take me 1 or 2 months elapsed time once hitting endgame before I consider my class "mastered". A bad implementation (like sw:tor) only takes a few days, possibly a week. So, the enjoyment from learning and mastery takes a lot longer, but even once mastered, it is still engaging enough to keep me entertained for many more months to come.
3) Pacing
I'm not sure about other people, but I find action games far more tiring than tab-target. Even though they're easier (intellectually), you need to concentrate more and they tend to be fast paced with little downtime. An hour of action combat feels like 3 hours of tab-targetting in terms of fatigue.
Add to that, the lack of downtime means minimal natural social engagement, so the communities tend to be worse.
Tab-targetting games just generally feel more relaxed for a lot of people, which is often a good thing for a hobby.
4) Familiarity
I wish I could discount this as a factor, but human nature means holding on to what we know and being fearful of change. Tab-target was a necessary starting point due to technical limitations, so many of us are simply familiar with the system and dont feel any need to change. If combat mechanics / depth etc aren't important to you (and I would suggest the majority of solo mmo players don't really care about it) then sticking with something familiar is a good option, that way you can focus on the bits you do like, like the stories and quests, exploring the world, seeing interesting creatures, gaining experience etc.
Tab target = more strategic. Action combat = more skilled.
Both assertions are stupid for various reasons. Firstly, action combat often involves a ton of strategy and tab target involves a ton of skill. That is - if you expect to be a top 5% player. In the end, both of these systems require practice and patience to master and if someone tells you that their version is superior is either a fool or a pretender.
The rhetorical battle is age-long, but in actual practice, it is completely based on preference. The pretenders that tell you that one is better over the other, for whatever reason, are just stating their opinion (longwinded or otherwise).
back in the day in games with tab targeting you did not just spam your buttons for every encounter. You actually had abilities that would do more damage to mobs if you choose the correct ones...aka fire on an ice golem. So you could not macro unless you did one for every mob type. You had to pick resists and offense abilities for what you were fighting. So you needed 20 skills that you would only use 4 or 5 on a certain mob type.
Now days it is just spam away with no thought really.
the only reason i see is that tab target is
a) slower, and therefor less lagbound, and b) easier to use. twitch combat ain't for everyone.
your REAL question tho, why the deep logic of mobs they had in DAoC for example seems to have gone.... ask publishers not devs.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
What I would like to see in MMOs is hybrid of tab-target (slowness and strategy) with some action elements such as aiming (at least partial) and collision detection (melee cleaves). Tab-target is too clunky for current standards, but pure twitch combat doesn't fit the genre either.
What I would like to see in MMOs is hybrid of tab-target (slowness and strategy) with some action elements such as aiming (at least partial) and collision detection (melee cleaves). Tab-target is too clunky for current standards, but pure twitch combat doesn't fit the genre either.
@zzax Check out Crowfall, it might be what you are looking for combat wise.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Comments
I agree with this. I played FFXI since 2003 till now and been playing FFXIV since 2010 also and when I see people complaining about FFXIV being slow I know right away they come from wow or other game like wow and never played FFXI. To me FFXIV is too fast and give you no time to type hence almost all FC(guilds) require members to use some kind of VOIP. You can't stop pressing buttons or move around for a second or you will lack in DPS/healing/tanking or die from aoe or other mob move. Typing can only be done if you just sit and do nothing or maybe when crafting.
Other systems just take some work to get good.
From the developers side,they give us a lot more tools because are hands/eyes are not tied to aiming and shooting.
You would not be able to run several macros,or hotbar icons as well as other key presses if your eyes have to stay on the target,not unless you are really good on the keyboard of which i am not.
I like non tab in a fps game that is just my wits and aim along with a few buttons for weapon changes.That leads to the other often talked about topic of pvp in rpg.Well tab target in pvp would be silly but i don't want to ruin everything a great mmorpg can do for me to cater to pvp and why i have said many times,the two cannot work together..ever.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Ah...I disagree, remove tab target in old Vanilla WoW content I am sure it will be just as technical.
Slow is not always good, leaving without the challenge of critical thinking. Speed can be bad too. Pick your poison.
The EQ1 social nature is a step ahead or faster than RTSRPG, and you can see that in modern games like Pillars of Eternity.
Seriously there is nothing challenging about PAUSE, SAVE,...oh I fucked up.... PAUSE, LOAD....rinse repeat!
@DMKanoa you seem like a pretty smart cat I expected better from you.
it also allows for more variety of skills as since most people dont use MMO mouses and fast pace games limit your ability to use a large number of different abilities at once due to less access to buttons since u cant take your hand of mouse or movement controls.
think about it how many of the game that dont use tab targeting have more then 4-5 abilities available at a time, most use hot bat swapping to add to that number but with limitations, personally i dislike game that let me learn tons of skill but limit me to using only a few its hard to make chars that can handle a wide range of situations that way.
if you want to play a FPS then play a FPS this limitation on usable abilities makes more sense here but for a MMO options and char customization are more important.
P.S. not that i dislike FPS its just a different game style
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Tab targetting allows for people to play at a less frenetic pace than using the pointer to target and I also noticed most non tab target games to be associated with action combat which is way more twitchy than games with tab targetting. Tab targetting seems to be more strategic as it involves more time to pick courses of actions and allows for more thought simply because there is more time in between actions. It does not mean it is more fun it depends on the person playing. Some people find this type of gaming way to slow and boring and unchallenging so they eschew it.
I think the market should continue to cater to different tastes otherwise you lose people over time and it is not good to lose players so I feel it is best (selfish since I like less frenetic pace too) for there to be continued development of these types games.
Since when has Tab Target game never been plagued with hacks?
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Exactly! Simply not everyone likes or can handle fast combat. Some people just want to play with a drink in one hand!
In the beginning, MMO's ran on dial up. Tab to target and single stroke key binds made sense. Why it's still popular is human nature. We hate change.
Let's see....@DMKano got 7 agrees...and you got laughed at....
He "wins"
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
1) Brains vs Brawn
Do you like to win because you're smart, or win because you're strong? Tab-targetting systems are usually designed to make you think critically about your approach to combat. Sure, a lot of games end up being quite basic in that you just need to execute a rotation, but tab-targetting can offer a depth not seen in action combat games. The best implementations of tab-targetting put great emphasis on making meaningful decisions during combat - giving you hard choices on what skill to use next, or whether to blow a long cooldown etc.
This is why I personally prefer tab-targetting - I like winning because I fully understand the mechanics and made the right decisions at the right time.
This compares to more action-orientated games which tend to have much fewer skills, so winning is mostly a case of having good physical reactions. Building up muscle memory requires no brain power, just time, which is why it doesn't appeal to me.
2) Depth
The longest it has taken me to "master" (as in, 100% understand the game + my class) an action combat game has been about 5 hours. From then on, its all about practice in order to build up muscle memory and improve reaction times. This is, unfortunately, just a side effect of having a small amount of skills.
So, what tends to happen is I start a game, have great fun and satisfaction for the first 5-20 hours. Then, boredom kicks in. I'm no longer learning anything, just improving physical reactions. My brain is essentially disengaged and just going through the motions. Even in the hardest content, the challenge comes from having to concentrate for 5 minutes, rather than any intellectual challenge from the bosses or mechanics.
Tab-targetting systems, with their massive amount of skills, take far longer to master (assuming average or above implementation). If you have 40+ skills, it takes longer to learn what each one does and longer to figure out the best synergies between skills. Even once you have learnt everything about your class, the vast choice of skills during combat keeps your brain engaged.
A good implementation (like vanilla lotro) might take me 1 or 2 months elapsed time once hitting endgame before I consider my class "mastered". A bad implementation (like sw:tor) only takes a few days, possibly a week. So, the enjoyment from learning and mastery takes a lot longer, but even once mastered, it is still engaging enough to keep me entertained for many more months to come.
3) Pacing
I'm not sure about other people, but I find action games far more tiring than tab-target. Even though they're easier (intellectually), you need to concentrate more and they tend to be fast paced with little downtime. An hour of action combat feels like 3 hours of tab-targetting in terms of fatigue.
Add to that, the lack of downtime means minimal natural social engagement, so the communities tend to be worse.
Tab-targetting games just generally feel more relaxed for a lot of people, which is often a good thing for a hobby.
4) Familiarity
I wish I could discount this as a factor, but human nature means holding on to what we know and being fearful of change. Tab-target was a necessary starting point due to technical limitations, so many of us are simply familiar with the system and dont feel any need to change. If combat mechanics / depth etc aren't important to you (and I would suggest the majority of solo mmo players don't really care about it) then sticking with something familiar is a good option, that way you can focus on the bits you do like, like the stories and quests, exploring the world, seeing interesting creatures, gaining experience etc.
Action combat = more skilled.
Both assertions are stupid for various reasons. Firstly, action combat often involves a ton of strategy and tab target involves a ton of skill. That is - if you expect to be a top 5% player. In the end, both of these systems require practice and patience to master and if someone tells you that their version is superior is either a fool or a pretender.
The rhetorical battle is age-long, but in actual practice, it is completely based on preference. The pretenders that tell you that one is better over the other, for whatever reason, are just stating their opinion (longwinded or otherwise).
the only reason i see is that tab target is
a) slower, and therefor less lagbound, and
b) easier to use. twitch combat ain't for everyone.
your REAL question tho, why the deep logic of mobs they had in DAoC for example seems to have gone.... ask publishers
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
What I would like to see in MMOs is hybrid of tab-target (slowness and strategy) with some action elements such as aiming (at least partial) and collision detection (melee cleaves). Tab-target is too clunky for current standards, but pure twitch combat doesn't fit the genre either.
@zzax Check out Crowfall, it might be what you are looking for combat wise.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer