I'm part of an indie team currently making a turn-based RPG. Turn-based combat wasn't the first choice of many individual team members, but it won as a compromise choice. In general I hear a lot of people express frustration with the slowness of turn-based combat, and for some types of turn-based combat people complain that it's too simplistic. It's quite difficult to counter one of these two problems without making the other one worse; more complex combat is slower, faster combat is more repetitious. And turn-based RPG combat isn't immersive by anyone's definition.
Yeah, you will have to pick one or the other. Skip the fast thing is my advice, people in a hurry wont play turned based anyways.
The best turned based "MMORPG" is still SSI/AOLs Neverwinter nights from '93, it had the perfect ratio and I think you should research it a little if you havn't heard about it (not to be confused with Biowares game named to honor it). Those old SSI RPGs had great turned based combat, far better then the JRPGs.
I remember playing as a kid. But I can't remember anything about it.
Just watched a youtube and I think its similar to might and magic x. Can never finish those games since I spend more time on party formation than try to finish the game.
Divinity Original Sin, I'm not sure how it plays on PS or Xbox, but it's great on PC. DIdn't they put a console version of Wasteland 2 out as well or am I mistaken?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I like party based as long as its something like Dragon Age. I think the final fantasy 7 remake will be something similar. I enjoyed turn based in the 90s but thats because there wasnt much choice because of tech and the story quality of games like chrono trigger and final fantasy 6/7 and other JRPGs made up for it. I tried playing some modern turn based rpgs recently but it just bores me now.
I've played two turn based RPGs on PC. Shadowrun Returns Dead Man's Switch has a decent story and fairly fun combat. Divinity Original Sin also has pretty good combat and is in general a superior game, but I don't like the main characters choices of appearance and voice set much. I know Divinity Original Sin 2 is out, but I haven't tried it yet.
I would agree with others in that we don't see these mechanics because of the masses. In reality video gaming was a niche market in the 80s and 90s. It was something that was opened up to the masses until technology had progressed enough that it wasn't time consuming. Until that point everything was aimed at fairly specific demographics. I still miss those times as I now have to sift through many games to find something I like. Almost every game that came out was enjoyable in the early days of gaming weather it was action or RPG.
They did, but today not as much. With each iteration less and less players are playing. Xcom and Civ are flagship games with established IPs, hence the popularity. But they are still in decline. the trend of declining interest in turn based games is self evident. How would we know that this is true - is the market flooded with new IP turn based strategy games that are thriving? Instead look at the top games in the world - all action based CCGs are the only popular turn based games at this time
Candy Crush disagrees... Very few of their levels are timed.
Agreed, and you can just search 4X on steam to see a large chunk of turned based that are still being made.
Turned based games are the type of games you can play while sitting on a train, when you have to step away from the computer pretty often as you play (I know this guy who have a small store that always game them when he is low on customers) or just if you enjoy pondering over a situation.
Games that need quick reaction and fast thinking is fun but so is slowly considering a huge battlefield and outsmart an opponent.
About 25% of my steam games are turned based, more the FPS games actually. And while Age of Wonders 3 is my favorite there are newer IPs as well, like Endless legends, tabletop simulator and Warlock.
That doesn't mean that everyone enjoy turned based games, far from it but Kano makes it sounds like there are a couple of old IPs still living and nothing more.
Now, turned based massive games are harder. Atlantica was one but it wasn't that good. The best was probably SSIs old "Neverwinter nights" (1993) that in many senses was the first MMO ever and making a good one is not entirely easy.
It do open up some possibilities though, for instance could a single player control a small unit in strategical PvP battles besides their main hero. Of course you want more then a single player in an army, a general and a couple of field marshals giving orders to a bunch of players to run a huge battlefield would be awesome in a historical game, be that about WW2, Alexander the great, the Romans or the 30 year war.
I think a turned based MMO surely is harder to pull off then a regular themepark but anything slightly different is hard to pull off, it is easy to make an mediocre themepark, get your invested money back and a few bucks more. Then again, if you are going huge you might as well try something different, most themepark games drown in other similar games.
I don't think I would try myself if I got MMO funding though, there are other a bit different things that would be way easier to get people aboard on like a good actual MMOFPS that is open world massive, have horizontal progression and focus on PvP (people love PvP FPS games but MMOs always screw it up by keeping the old PvE themepark progression and character powergap).
I maybe alone on this or maybe there's alot of gamers in there late 20's to early 30's like me that miss turned based rpg's. I grew up loving final fantasy and the Suikoden series because of mainly the strategy's needed to defeat bosses and enemies etc, i get they where for the time and they where grindy, but games coming out on the 3ds like the default series gave me hope they will become more mainstream... what you guys reckon there reasons? not flashy enough for the times? to boring? whats your thoughts on MMORPGS having turn based combat... personally i'd love for them to come back in a big way, obviously not how they where back then but with different twists on the style of combat
Cheers
You do not need turn based combat to play strategically. You need different skills - ....
completely disagree.
detailed tactics is effective and insightful when it purely turn based. having it not turned based is just turning those details into muscle memory but if you dont have those details and havent been able to experiment with them then you have a clash of time affecting your experiements
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I'm part of an indie team currently making a turn-based RPG. Turn-based combat wasn't the first choice of many individual team members, but it won as a compromise choice. In general I hear a lot of people express frustration with the slowness of turn-based combat, and for some types of turn-based combat people complain that it's too simplistic. It's quite difficult to counter one of these two problems without making the other one worse; more complex combat is slower, faster combat is more repetitious. And turn-based RPG combat isn't immersive by anyone's definition.
Also I disagree.
Many cRPGs are about playing several characters at once especially in combat, and having decisions made real time for all of them would only lead into chaos. It's more immersive to allow all these characters to use their skills, spells, and abilities as well as possible, and therefor a pause option or turn based combat makes more sense.
I'm part of an indie team currently making a turn-based RPG. Turn-based combat wasn't the first choice of many individual team members, but it won as a compromise choice. In general I hear a lot of people express frustration with the slowness of turn-based combat, and for some types of turn-based combat people complain that it's too simplistic. It's quite difficult to counter one of these two problems without making the other one worse; more complex combat is slower, faster combat is more repetitious. And turn-based RPG combat isn't immersive by anyone's definition.
Also I disagree.
Many cRPGs are about playing several characters at once especially in combat, and having decisions made real time for all of them would only lead into chaos. It's more immersive to allow all these characters to use their skills, spells, and abilities as well as possible, and therefor a pause option or turn based combat makes more sense.
I adore turn based tactical games very much. In fact, once the trend came about for strategy games to effectively remove the pause and queue up features i stopped playing. So clearly I dont agree that its 'isn't immersive by anyone's definition' as sunandshadow suggests.
Now 'why' I like such games more is a bit harder to explain but I could. Never the less Silent Storm 2 is an example of a game I adored
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Pillars of Eternity, a game very similar to Baldur's Gate, launched a crowdfunding campaign earlier this year that surpassed $4.4 million. Based on that, it looks like there is still a market for that genre of game.
Pillars of Eternity, a game very similar to Baldur's Gate, launched a crowdfunding campaign earlier this year that surpassed $4.4 million. Based on that, it looks like there is still a market for that genre of game.
To be technical that is real time turn based like Baldur's Gate and many old MMORPGs. It still lets you pause combat and decide what you want to do, but there is no automatically pausing for each character's action. On the other hand, Divinity Orignal Sin and Shadowrun Returns are turn based games.
I'm part of an indie team currently making a turn-based RPG. Turn-based combat wasn't the first choice of many individual team members, but it won as a compromise choice. In general I hear a lot of people express frustration with the slowness of turn-based combat, and for some types of turn-based combat people complain that it's too simplistic. It's quite difficult to counter one of these two problems without making the other one worse; more complex combat is slower, faster combat is more repetitious. And turn-based RPG combat isn't immersive by anyone's definition.
Also I disagree.
Many cRPGs are about playing several characters at once especially in combat, and having decisions made real time for all of them would only lead into chaos. It's more immersive to allow all these characters to use their skills, spells, and abilities as well as possible, and therefor a pause option or turn based combat makes more sense.
I adore turn based tactical games very much. In fact, once the trend came about for strategy games to effectively remove the pause and queue up features i stopped playing. So clearly I dont agree that its 'isn't immersive by anyone's definition' as sunandshadow suggests.
Now 'why' I like such games more is a bit harder to explain but I could. Never the less Silent Storm 2 is an example of a game I adored
Ironically, I also adore turn-based tactical games, especially ones like Disgaea and Dofus. I just don't consider them immersive. Games like the XCOM series and Massive chalice are also cool, and the actual combat can be immersive even though the rest of the game tends not to be, but I hate the permadeath aspect and the "miss when it's right freaking next to you" issue.
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
I'm part of an indie team currently making a turn-based RPG. Turn-based combat wasn't the first choice of many individual team members, but it won as a compromise choice. In general I hear a lot of people express frustration with the slowness of turn-based combat, and for some types of turn-based combat people complain that it's too simplistic. It's quite difficult to counter one of these two problems without making the other one worse; more complex combat is slower, faster combat is more repetitious. And turn-based RPG combat isn't immersive by anyone's definition.
Also I disagree.
Many cRPGs are about playing several characters at once especially in combat, and having decisions made real time for all of them would only lead into chaos. It's more immersive to allow all these characters to use their skills, spells, and abilities as well as possible, and therefor a pause option or turn based combat makes more sense.
I adore turn based tactical games very much. In fact, once the trend came about for strategy games to effectively remove the pause and queue up features i stopped playing. So clearly I dont agree that its 'isn't immersive by anyone's definition' as sunandshadow suggests.
Now 'why' I like such games more is a bit harder to explain but I could. Never the less Silent Storm 2 is an example of a game I adored
Ironically, I also adore turn-based tactical games, especially ones like Disgaea and Dofus. I just don't consider them immersive. Games like the XCOM series and Massive chalice are also cool, and the actual combat can be immersive even though the rest of the game tends not to be, but I hate the permadeath aspect and the "miss when it's right freaking next to you" issue.
just to drive my point to clarity.
I find Turn based strategy and tactical games to be immersive. I find Real Time based strategy and tactical games to be an ADHD management nightmare similar to trying to drive on the freeway while doing accounting.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Pillars of Eternity, a game very similar to Baldur's Gate, launched a crowdfunding campaign earlier this year that surpassed $4.4 million. Based on that, it looks like there is still a market for that genre of game.
To be technical that is real time turn based like Baldur's Gate and many old MMORPGs. It still lets you pause combat and decide what you want to do, but there is no automatically pausing for each character's action. On the other hand, Divinity Orignal Sin and Shadowrun Returns are turn based games.
You can make the game automatically pause for every active action being done, its just that most people don't play it that way.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Pillars of Eternity, a game very similar to Baldur's Gate, launched a crowdfunding campaign earlier this year that surpassed $4.4 million. Based on that, it looks like there is still a market for that genre of game.
To be technical that is real time turn based like Baldur's Gate and many old MMORPGs. It still lets you pause combat and decide what you want to do, but there is no automatically pausing for each character's action. On the other hand, Divinity Orignal Sin and Shadowrun Returns are turn based games.
You can make the game automatically pause for every active action being done, its just that most people don't play it that way.
Pillars of Eternity, a game very similar to Baldur's Gate, launched a crowdfunding campaign earlier this year that surpassed $4.4 million. Based on that, it looks like there is still a market for that genre of game.
To be technical that is real time turn based like Baldur's Gate and many old MMORPGs. It still lets you pause combat and decide what you want to do, but there is no automatically pausing for each character's action. On the other hand, Divinity Orignal Sin and Shadowrun Returns are turn based games.
You can make the game automatically pause for every active action being done, its just that most people don't play it that way.
actually when the trend started around year 2000 you could not.
Yes you could make it extreemly slow but you could not 100% pause the game and queue up commands.
It was for me the main deal breaking difference between Empire Earth (which you could) and Age of Empires (which you could not) again micro slow speed is still not zero. I might want to think about a move for an hour.
EDIT: I should also be more clear I actually dont find strategy or tactical games turn based or not to be 'immersive'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I find Turn based strategy and tactical games to be immersive. I find Real Time based strategy and tactical games to be an ADHD management nightmare similar to trying to drive on the freeway while doing accounting.
Then think of how it was for actual generals back in time and they couldn't really see the entire battle and even if they could they had a lot of problems to communicate with their forces....
I like both styles of games myself depending on my mood, sometimes it is really nice to consider a problem and solve it in the best way without needing to react hastily, other times it is nice to just bash some skulls.
I find Turn based strategy and tactical games to be immersive. I find Real Time based strategy and tactical games to be an ADHD management nightmare similar to trying to drive on the freeway while doing accounting.
Then think of how it was for actual generals back in time and they couldn't really see the entire battle and even if they could they had a lot of problems to communicate with their forces....
I like both styles of games myself depending on my mood, sometimes it is really nice to consider a problem and solve it in the best way without needing to react hastily, other times it is nice to just bash some skulls.
EDIT:
actually the military does use similar turn based approaches for training as well as strategic planning. Its very effective in determining the best course of action.
Basically RTS is like putting on a show with no rehearsals and you just try to learn the parts as you perform them that is silly.
Most games (if not all) are about the player learning and experimenting with different possibilities. You cant realistically determine your outcome in an RTS because things move to fast and you do not have the time to determine specifically which factor caused the outcome. In turned based you know EXACTLY which choice affected the outcome, which is in fact exactly why turn based is so appealing as a game as well as tactical and strategic training and planning
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
The best turned based "MMORPG" is still SSI/AOLs Neverwinter nights from '93, it had the perfect ratio and I think you should research it a little if you havn't heard about it (not to be confused with Biowares game named to honor it). Those old SSI RPGs had great turned based combat, far better then the JRPGs.
Just watched a youtube and I think its similar to might and magic x. Can never finish those games since I spend more time on party formation than try to finish the game.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
I would agree with others in that we don't see these mechanics because of the masses. In reality video gaming was a niche market in the 80s and 90s. It was something that was opened up to the masses until technology had progressed enough that it wasn't time consuming. Until that point everything was aimed at fairly specific demographics. I still miss those times as I now have to sift through many games to find something I like. Almost every game that came out was enjoyable in the early days of gaming weather it was action or RPG.
Turned based games are the type of games you can play while sitting on a train, when you have to step away from the computer pretty often as you play (I know this guy who have a small store that always game them when he is low on customers) or just if you enjoy pondering over a situation.
Games that need quick reaction and fast thinking is fun but so is slowly considering a huge battlefield and outsmart an opponent.
About 25% of my steam games are turned based, more the FPS games actually. And while Age of Wonders 3 is my favorite there are newer IPs as well, like Endless legends, tabletop simulator and Warlock.
That doesn't mean that everyone enjoy turned based games, far from it but Kano makes it sounds like there are a couple of old IPs still living and nothing more.
Now, turned based massive games are harder. Atlantica was one but it wasn't that good. The best was probably SSIs old "Neverwinter nights" (1993) that in many senses was the first MMO ever and making a good one is not entirely easy.
It do open up some possibilities though, for instance could a single player control a small unit in strategical PvP battles besides their main hero. Of course you want more then a single player in an army, a general and a couple of field marshals giving orders to a bunch of players to run a huge battlefield would be awesome in a historical game, be that about WW2, Alexander the great, the Romans or the 30 year war.
I think a turned based MMO surely is harder to pull off then a regular themepark but anything slightly different is hard to pull off, it is easy to make an mediocre themepark, get your invested money back and a few bucks more. Then again, if you are going huge you might as well try something different, most themepark games drown in other similar games.
I don't think I would try myself if I got MMO funding though, there are other a bit different things that would be way easier to get people aboard on like a good actual MMOFPS that is open world massive, have horizontal progression and focus on PvP (people love PvP FPS games but MMOs always screw it up by keeping the old PvE themepark progression and character powergap).
detailed tactics is effective and insightful when it purely turn based. having it not turned based is just turning those details into muscle memory but if you dont have those details and havent been able to experiment with them then you have a clash of time affecting your experiements
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Many cRPGs are about playing several characters at once especially in combat, and having decisions made real time for all of them would only lead into chaos. It's more immersive to allow all these characters to use their skills, spells, and abilities as well as possible, and therefor a pause option or turn based combat makes more sense.
So clearly I dont agree that its 'isn't immersive by anyone's definition' as sunandshadow suggests.
Now 'why' I like such games more is a bit harder to explain but I could. Never the less Silent Storm 2 is an example of a game I adored
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I find Turn based strategy and tactical games to be immersive.
I find Real Time based strategy and tactical games to be an ADHD management nightmare similar to trying to drive on the freeway while doing accounting.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
EDIT: I should also be more clear I actually dont find strategy or tactical games turn based or not to be 'immersive'
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I like both styles of games myself depending on my mood, sometimes it is really nice to consider a problem and solve it in the best way without needing to react hastily, other times it is nice to just bash some skulls.
EDIT:
actually the military does use similar turn based approaches for training as well as strategic planning. Its very effective in determining the best course of action.
Basically RTS is like putting on a show with no rehearsals and you just try to learn the parts as you perform them that is silly.
Most games (if not all) are about the player learning and experimenting with different possibilities. You cant realistically determine your outcome in an RTS because things move to fast and you do not have the time to determine specifically which factor caused the outcome. In turned based you know EXACTLY which choice affected the outcome, which is in fact exactly why turn based is so appealing as a game as well as tactical and strategic training and planning
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
"Close Combat" that was it
An RTT (real time tactical game) It was a great game, I remember it being quite a challenge.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee