sorry they killed this game with selling player run towns for real money in the cash shop. This game will not last long because the money is drying up.
But Lord British can still sell some more of his blood!
Or other body fluids for that matter.
How much for an ounce of his tears when SotA flops upon "release" and his days of milking Ultima are finally over?
>No idea what Astroturf is. My company does cyber security. It's not in the games industry at all. Well, other than the 1099s I get from these articles.
And yet your own byline here on this very article currently says this:
" where he runs his company and works with the city government to promote geek culture"
Are you working in a more engineering focused, security field, or are you working in promoting geek culture... or is it both?
Not that it matters by itself; but again, this is what's so enfuriating about defenders of Shroud of the Avatar. You honestly treat it like a cult, and will twist and turn the meanings of words constantly in order to always service the higher goal of protecting the game... and treat the rest of us as if we are morons because we notice what you've literally just said right there in front of our eyes. Your byline declared you work in advocacy. Why are you trying to deny now that you do?
I also find it very, very hard to believe that someone who wrote this article on Social Engineering on his company website doesn't know what "astroturfing" is in regards to advocacy. Even if it's not a common political term in the circles you run in there, there's a whole wikipedia article on it. It's an extremely long established term in both media and political sciences. You may not have known the word, but had you googled it, you'll know exactly what activities I was talking about.
Here's another one for you; "The Streisand Effect". I mention that because I went back to cross check my own memory, rather than just assume I was right, I discovered that when the constant obvious bias and denials got people wondering just why you were so invested, one found not just your Security company, but that there was a marketing company owned by someone of the same name and based in the same city too.
That could be an honest coincidence. But when you combine it with such patronizing presumptions and manipulative "social engineering" of people, the Streisand Effect kicks in with ultra hard force, and it increases the suspicion, justified or otherwise, that it is the same person.
Which is why I raised such an arch eyebrow at the fact that you claimed not to know what Astroturfing is... and yet completely ignored all the other things you've also stated directly yourself here on these same forums.
I'd probably ask someone else to write the review when the time comes because I am definitely biased. I consider a lot of these guys friends, and even though I have plenty of experience from my military days of taking emotions out of providing assessments, it would be a little unethical to write that sort of article myself
And that's fine, you like what you like... if, if, IF it didn't also seem like when you felt it could be used against the game again, you ignored what you'd openly stated elsewhere and gave just a pat, and patronizing response to concerns about bias you yourself know about, because you'll excuse yourself from a review at launch because of that bias.
So too for comments like "well how would you suggest they fund the game?" when you must know for years the debate on the Shroud forums was that things like Minecraft and KSP have proven the model of low early backer prices with full access to the game in the future can bring in literally billions. Shroud has chosen to go the Ayn Rand elitist Libertarian wealth makes right route, and you must be aware of that. You like it; don't patronize us by pretending we know that we don't, and we argued against it for years in turn.
It's not that you like the game that's the issue; it's that you and Portalarium and the rest of the remaining backers treat us like even our own experiences are so worthless you can lie to our faces about what we know to be true, and not think that it even matters..
Hence my prior disgust too with Chris Spears deliberately cherry picking figures, and then blaming us somehow for the fact he doesn't want to count all the 35,000 linked Steam accounts that no longer play as his "real audience".
THAT is why so many of us don't just let what is turning out to be another not-very-good-kickstarted-game go. THAT and the fact we grew up on the Virtues of Ultima just like you did, and we now see them being absolutely urinated on by a product we desperately wanted to love, but which treats us like dirt just because we don't think the product is good enough.
And which thinks we don't know what 71 divided by 35 adds up too.
Hear what I want? Funny someone could say the same thing about you.
If you have played so many rpg's and MMO's you should be able to tell the quality of this one.
I could easily pick out things I don't like about it. I have in a few articles, but I don't like to write negativity. If I don't like a project, I just don't write about it. I'm sure you could look back through the history of my articles and find popular games that I stopped covering because I don't want to support them anymore.
I happen to like this one, and have enjoyed playing it. I bet I like foods you don't like, too. Probably also music. Having traveled internationally quite a bit, I think it actually allows me to enjoy strange food, music, and such that I probably wouldn't otherwise. I hadn't thought about it, but games are probably similar.
Why in the world do you care so much about what other people like or don't like? Do you run around attacking people in restaurants eating food that you think is gross? lol I ate chocolate covered ants in Korea. I'm sure some folks would think that's gross. Doesn't mean it's not a pretty interesting taste or that some people don't really like it.
rofl Next time I see someone pollute their coffee with cream or sugar, I'll knock it out of their hands and make sure they know that @rune_74 says, "hello!"
Absolutely, if I see people eating Sushi I sweep it off their tables.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
>No idea what Astroturf is. My company does cyber security. It's not in the games industry at all. Well, other than the 1099s I get from these articles.
And yet your own byline here on this very article currently says this:
" where he runs his company and works with the city government to promote geek culture"
Are you working in a more engineering focused, security field, or are you working in promoting geek culture... or is it both?
Not that it matters by itself; but again, this is what's so enfuriating about defenders of Shroud of the Avatar. You honestly treat it like a cult, and will twist and turn the meanings of words constantly in order to always service the higher goal of protecting the game... and treat the rest of us as if we are morons because we notice what you've literally just said right there in front of our eyes. Your byline declared you work in advocacy. Why are you trying to deny now that you do?
I also find it very, very hard to believe that someone who wrote this article on Social Engineering on his company website doesn't know what "astroturfing" is in regards to advocacy. Even if it's not a common political term in the circles you run in there, there's a whole wikipedia article on it. It's an extremely long established term in both media and political sciences. You may not have known the word, but had you googled it, you'll know exactly what activities I was talking about.
Here's another one for you; "The Streisand Effect". I mention that because I went back to cross check my own memory, rather than just assume I was right, I discovered that when the constant obvious bias and denials got people wondering just why you were so invested, one found not just your Security company, but that there was a marketing company owned by someone of the same name and based in the same city too.
That could be an honest coincidence. But when you combine it with such patronizing presumptions and manipulative "social engineering" of people, the Streisand Effect kicks in with ultra hard force, and it increases the suspicion, justified or otherwise, that it is the same person.
Which is why I raised such an arch eyebrow at the fact that you claimed not to know what Astroturfing is... and yet completely ignored all the other things you've also stated directly yourself here on these same forums.
I'd probably ask someone else to write the review when the time comes because I am definitely biased. I consider a lot of these guys friends, and even though I have plenty of experience from my military days of taking emotions out of providing assessments, it would be a little unethical to write that sort of article myself
And that's fine, you like what you like... if, if, IF it didn't also seem like when you felt it could be used against the game again, you ignored what you'd openly stated elsewhere and gave just a pat, and patronizing response to concerns about bias you yourself know about, because you'll excuse yourself from a review at launch because of that bias.
So too for comments like "well how would you suggest they fund the game?" when you must know for years the debate on the Shroud forums was that things like Minecraft and KSP have proven the model of low early backer prices with full access to the game in the future can bring in literally billions. Shroud has chosen to go the Ayn Rand elitist Libertarian wealth makes right route, and you must be aware of that. You like it; don't patronize us by pretending we know that we don't, and we argued against it for years in turn.
It's not that you like the game that's the issue; it's that you and Portalarium and the rest of the remaining backers treat us like even our own experiences are so worthless you can lie to our faces about what we know to be true, and not think that it even matters..
Hence my prior disgust too with Chris Spears deliberately cherry picking figures, and then blaming us somehow for the fact he doesn't want to count all the 35,000 linked Steam accounts that no longer play as his "real audience".
THAT is why so many of us don't just let what is turning out to be another not-very-good-kickstarted-game go. THAT and the fact we grew up on the Virtues of Ultima just like you did, and we now see them being absolutely urinated on by a product we desperately wanted to love, but which treats us like dirt just because we don't think the product is good enough.
And which thinks we don't know what 71 divided by 35 adds up too
Wow. There's a lot wrong there. Not sure I can get it from my phone, so I'll give it a shot.
No, I hadn't heard the term. In context, I thought it was some other project. But knowing what it is, no. Just because I like something and choose to write about it, doesn't mean it's some strange shell game. I like it. I write about it. I also like Crowfall, so I write about that. It's not a review. I'm biased, which is why I wouldn't do a review on either game. It's an article about what they're doing with notes about what I like. There's nothing nefarious about it, or hidden. I actually take a net loss on each article, because they don't cover the cost of gas. I do it because I enjoy it, and it makes video game related expenses tax deductible.
As far as what I do... I own a cyber company. I also have a 501c3 that helps vets, so I'm heavily involved in those industries in the city. Do instance I met with our mayor and city manager last week to talk about an open data policy for the city, and a way to tie veteran transition support to the project. That weekend before, I had breakfast with some of our tourism bureau folks about how to get more events like PAX to the city and retain more tech talent, which involved a conversation about culture. So yeah. Cyber type business, geek culture, city. Not sure why that's something you'd find confusing.
No idea what the marketing company is. Just check the state website and you'll easily be able to tell who the officers are. May be illegal though. They would have had to ask my permission or I there's if they were named first.
W/r to the rest, you might find that it's just people that like their game. If you don't, it's not like anyone cares. You guys are trying to convince people who like a game that they shouldn't like a game. That's not really rational.
And with minecraft and ksp,both games I have a ton of time in, you're talking a massive difference in overhead and development effort. Not really the same thing, and there's no way shroud could follow that model. And that's a business assessment, nothing to do with liking it or not
That's what I thought you don't actively play this game, you just come here for your Portalarium buddies to try and get some more suckers to back this game. If you played it you'd know how bad it really is. If you're going to write puff pieces and praises for a game, don't you think you should really be playing it, your opinion at least would hold something then? At least the staff here at MMORPG.com actually play the game before making an article about it.
Dude of course the high level backers are gonna say this game is good, they stand to lose thousands of dollars because this game sucks and face planted into the pavement last July. They'll do anything to sucker people to buy this game, you know like they do...High level backers skew polls, they go post positive reviews because sales are low and the game is empty. Shady and greedy
lol I'm more of a Pops guy, but I still have season Symphony tickets, and I can have as an intelligent conversation about Baroque or Classical compositions and composers as I can contemporary.
Besides, you didn't ask if I liked the game or had played it much over all. You asked if I'd played it recently, and I hadn't. I've been OCONUS, and by the time I got home Civ VI had released some new content that's kept me busy. Thus, I hadn't played it much lately. Though, I think you dramatically overestimate the amount of time any writer has for any given game. In fact, I only cover the projects that interest me, so I tend to have more time on the games that I cover than most.
I think you're stretching a bit on the second point. Those folks backed because they were excited about the project. They already lost their money, because it's not like Kickstarter is an investment platform. I've been shoveling cash at Bethesda because I love the Elder Scrolls games. None of the new ones have been as revolutionary as Daggerfall, even a step back for the most part. They're still getting my money because I'm a fan, though. It's not like I'm out here pimping the game because I'm afraid of "losing" money on it. rofl I just think it's a fun series and that other folks would enjoy it, too.
I know you were speaking to someone else but wanted to respond to your part about people being excited about Shroud.
At some point during this journey the devs forgot about making a good quality game first. It seems about the times they realized they could keep selling pledges and could make a lot of money off POT's and that soaked up around 2 years of their time focusing on them.
I don't know about others that spent a lot of money like I did, but
early on I was excited about the idea of Shroud of the Avatar maybe
being a successor to Ultima Online. In the beginning it looked like that
would be possible, as time went on it appeared greed, lack of structure
and a clear vision for this game, and lack of innovation replaced
quality and features for Shroud. Flash forward to 2017, I feel like a fool for believing in this group of devs, and spending money on this project. I wouldn't have spent so much on this
game had I known what it would become. It has become an abysmal
disappointment of a game. It looks bad visually, the game mechanics like
combat are truly uninspiring, boring, and clunky, the world itself is
ugly and either muddy or dusty looking with lack of details and
creativity. The other features in this game like fishing, agriculture,
questing, and storyline all feel very thrown together and are primitive
and boring, the loot system is boring and very uninspiring. The only
people that seem to be left are high level backers, and we are jumping
ship daily. Many that are left are unfriendly and often attack people that have difference of opinions on their forums and have helped to drive me away.
The main features of this game today seems to be to
make one grind for hours on end and buy cotos from their store, and take
up as much as your time to travel as possible. Cotos in game rarely,
rarely, ever drop because they purposely keep the numbers very low. This
has not become the game that was pitched to me in the Kickstarter. It's
become a cash grabbing grinding game, with an outrageously expensive
cash store, and as someone else stated, it does feel like a cash
grabbing app game. I know none of the items in their store are must have
items, but just look at the pricing scheme of it it looks greedy and
desperate. A lot of the items in the store are the price of a full
fledged triple-A game or more, it's ridiculously overpriced for pixels. I
left Shroud for all these reasons.
I know these people are your friends and you want to help out so I don't blame you for that, you probably just like to write as well and are entitled to your opinion on the game you play.
My opinion though is for anyone that's thinking about buying this game, wait, try a free trial when it comes around and don't spend any money until you've played it. It's the quality you'd expect of a free to play game with cash shop. Save your money. Anyone I know personally, I tell them to stay clear of it, it's not worth the money and their money would be better spent on a quality game such as Elder Scrolls Online that is rich in visuals, combat, questing, and storyline and they have a reasonably priced shop if there's interest to buy things.
I know you were speaking to someone else but wanted to respond to your part about people being excited about Shroud.
At some point during this journey the devs forgot about making a good quality game first. It seems about the times they realized they could keep selling pledges and could make a lot of money off POT's and that soaked up around 2 years of their time focusing on them.
I don't know about others that spent a lot of money like I did, but
early on I was excited about the idea of Shroud of the Avatar maybe
being a successor to Ultima Online. In the beginning it looked like that
would be possible, as time went on it appeared greed, lack of structure
and a clear vision for this game, and lack of innovation replaced
quality and features for Shroud. Flash forward to 2017, I feel like a fool for believing in this group of devs, and spending money on this project. I wouldn't have spent so much on this
game had I known what it would become. It has become an abysmal
disappointment of a game. It looks bad visually, the game mechanics like
combat are truly uninspiring, boring, and clunky, the world itself is
ugly and either muddy or dusty looking with lack of details and
creativity. The other features in this game like fishing, agriculture,
questing, and storyline all feel very thrown together and are primitive
and boring, the loot system is boring and very uninspiring. The only
people that seem to be left are high level backers, and we are jumping
ship daily. Many that are left are unfriendly and often attack people that have difference of opinions on their forums and have helped to drive me away.
The main features of this game today seems to be to
make one grind for hours on end and buy cotos from their store, and take
up as much as your time to travel as possible. Cotos in game rarely,
rarely, ever drop because they purposely keep the numbers very low. This
has not become the game that was pitched to me in the Kickstarter. It's
become a cash grabbing grinding game, with an outrageously expensive
cash store, and as someone else stated, it does feel like a cash
grabbing app game. I know none of the items in their store are must have
items, but just look at the pricing scheme of it it looks greedy and
desperate. A lot of the items in the store are the price of a full
fledged triple-A game or more, it's ridiculously overpriced for pixels. I
left Shroud for all these reasons.
I know these people are your friends and you want to help out so I don't blame you for that, you probably just like to write as well and are entitled to your opinion on the game you play.
My opinion though is for anyone that's thinking about buying this game, wait, try a free trial when it comes around and don't spend any money until you've played it. It's the quality you'd expect of a free to play game with cash shop. Save your money. Anyone I know personally, I tell them to stay clear of it, it's not worth the money and their money would be better spent on a quality game such as Elder Scrolls Online that is rich in visuals, combat, questing, and storyline and they have a reasonably priced shop if there's interest to buy things.
Interesting thing about the word "forum," is that it's by definition not private. So, no worries.
First, I'd say that as someone who backed the game, you absolutely have a dog in the fight. Feeling like they missed the target you felt they were aiming at is a completely valid criticism. I'm not a huge fan of the engine and art style choices. I think that had they abandoned realism early and gone for something more cartoony (a la WoW and Crowfall), they would be in a lot better visual shape right now. They have fantastic artists on staff who have done some great work, but I suspect this is something that just kind of ended up in place and it was too late to change when they realized it might not have been the right track.
This is actually a really clear example of one of the downsides of crowdfunding a game. There are certain tracks you place yourself on that you can't switch from when you realize another direction might be better. I think that had it been a more traditional development, it's probable that we'd have seen a different graphical direction. That's just me speculating. I've never asked or been told anything officially on that score.
You are wrong about the POTs, though. Those things are a gold mine because they take virtually no effort to create, and they've been selling like hotcakes. Whatever problems you have with the game, POTs have been nothing but beneficial and I can't think of a single downside to them. If there is one, then it is definitely not developer time investment. Return on Investment there is insane.
I also disagree with the CotOs. Yeah, they're hard to get in game, but they don't really have any real effect that matters. It's not like having none is actually a problem. In fact, and seriously no favoritism here, you guys that call this project a cash grab are flat out wrong. I'm not kidding. There are a ton of ways they could make a lot more money here. There is not a single thing in the cash shop that you actually need to pay real money for, or that by not having you some how aren't competitive in the game.
Sure, maybe someone can get an xp boost, or a dropoff point for stuff, or something, but it has no actual statistical impact on your ability to play the game. SotA has it's problems, but the cash shop just isn't one of them. You guys really kind of hurt your argument by bringing it up.
Other than that, completely valid post with some good points, man. I even agree 100% about the trials. They should be having them every month, and folks should definitely check the game out before dropping money on it. It's not going to be for everyone, and in part because there is a lot of grind in it. I've warned a few people off too, because I knew it wasn't their sort of game. On the other hand, I have a few friends who are fans and like this sort of thing, so I've suggested they give it a shot.
If it's not what you're into, there's nothing wrong with passing it by.
If you haven't bought the game yet and want to give it a try, keep your eyes open for a free trial announcement.
That's all I need to know. Can't beat first hand, no risk experience. If it's fun I'll play it... I don't need to examine anyone else's belly button to know that.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
This is a bit appalling. Can you imagine a new player coming to check out if they want to play this game and see all the manure being thrown at each other? Players bashing the game, players defending the game, developers calling people liars, the writer making comical jokes, lol, and rofl to people making comments.
This is a bit appalling. Can you imagine a new player coming to check out if they want to play this game and see all the manure being thrown at each other? Players bashing the game, players defending the game, developers calling people liars, the writer making comical jokes, lol, and rofl to people making comments.
I think I will just stay away.
...so, you're saying you'd rather a less humorous take?
Serious question. I'm pretty surprised that in all the positions I've taken over the years, the issue you take with me is humor. I find that a really interesting comment. Sorry, if that's a bit tangential. Just piqued my curiosity.
Wow. There's a lot wrong there. Not sure I can get it from my phone, so I'll give it a shot.
It's not a review. I'm biased, which is why I wouldn't do a review on
either game. It's an article about what they're doing with notes about
what I like. There's nothing nefarious about it, or hidden.
There certainly is something nefarious about someone who continues to treat his audience as if they're unable to see exactly what he is doing, and unable to recognise when they're being patronized.
I notice that you again cherry pick the points you want to respond too; did you, or did you not write the article on Social Engineering that's under your name, on what you state is your company webpage?
We know why you won't address that directly, as you state as such there; it's about trying to create a sense of positivity, to get the "such mighty powers" that come with engineering your social appearance. You want us to imagine you posting with a smile about Shroud of the Avatar.
Even when you get caught passing off Bullshots as in game footage, like you did with the character creation renders, where it was obvious that you were just passing on patch notes, and not actually talking honestly to your audience.
We also know why you also resort to the hypocritical dark arts side of smearing your opponents by declaring no one cares, and they aren't rational;
" By repeating an opponent’s name over and over in conjunction with a
single term, politicians hope to build an associative memory between
their opponent and that word. Once again they are demonstrating that
they have given in to their fear and hatred and become one with the dark
side of the Force."
But people these days online are far more media savvy than that; you can redefine "Social Engineering" to what ever you wish to try and label it as, but even those of us who aren't familiar with Newt Gingrich's "Language - A Key Mechanism For Control" (and I'll bet you are, as that's the seminal work you're referencing) can clearly see that you're doing exactly what you elsewhere state you know how to do and define.
So too with all the talk about working with Veterans. Sure, you probably actually do that; but you're mentioning it right now, instead of the actual substance of the post you refer too, to try and prime the audience to see you sympathetically, and critics of the game as not.
And THAT, again, is what we get annoyed about. You even had the sheer gall to cut off the actual concluding paragraphs of my response, and blamed your phone for it. What? You can't apparently read with the good old Mk.1 Eyeball and then just remember what someone said, and then reply to it?
We do you the credit of knowing you're not as forgetful as that. Do us the credit of acknowledging we're talking about something you understand as well as we assume you do.
And as for this...
"And with minecraft and ksp,both games I have a ton of time in, you're
talking a massive difference in overhead and development effort. Not
really the same thing, and there's no way shroud could follow that
model. And that's a business assessment, nothing to do with liking it
or not"
Are you seriously going to try and claim that businesses can never "ramp up"? Really? What is this, the "Irreducible Complexity" argument, businesses are either born as God or can't exist?! Are you also going to say that Minecraft couldn't, with Minecraft's now mult-BILLION profit, produce a Shroud if it wanted too?
All it has to do is get there. Shroud of course actually started with a greater investment than Minecraft. Near $2m on Kickstarter alone, remember? Again, why do you treat your audience as if they can't even remember basic facts? Especially as that money came directly from us, where as Minecraft was Notch's hobbyist work.
What Minecraft and KSP proved is that by allowing people to invest in a smaller product sooner, they could raise the funds to complete it later... and then go on to become runaway successes. From a "business perspective, nothing to do with liking it or not", your argument is ridiculous.
The only reason Shroud can't do that is because the game didn't take off.
We're not arguing about the game; outside of the echo chamber, we can all see the basic facts. We're arguing about that you the remaining backers can't treat people who disagree with you about that game's quality with even the slightest amount of honesty or respect.
We're talking about your behaviour.
Which is why Kickstarter is probably ultimately going to prove a fad; people just don't trust the business model, or those who defend it any more. Something something Dark Side, eh?
There certainly is something nefarious about someone who continues to treat his audience as if they're unable to see exactly what he is doing, and unable to recognise when they're being patronized.
I notice that you again cherry pick the points you want to respond too; did you, or did you not write the article on Social Engineering that's under your name, on what you state is your company webpage? ... We also know why you also resort to the hypocritical dark arts side of smearing your opponents by declaring no one cares, and they aren't rational;
" By repeating an opponent’s name over and over in conjunction with a single term, politicians hope to build an associative memory between their opponent and that word. Once again they are demonstrating that they have given in to their fear and hatred and become one with the dark side of the Force."
... So too with all the talk about working with Veterans. Sure, you probably actually do that; but you're mentioning it right now, instead of the actual substance of the post you refer too, to try and prime the audience to see you sympathetically, and critics of the game as not.
... And as for this...
"And with minecraft and ksp,both games I have a ton of time in, you're talking a massive difference in overhead and development effort. Not really the same thing, and there's no way shroud could follow that model. And that's a business assessment, nothing to do with liking it or not"
Are you seriously going to try and claim that businesses can never "ramp up"? Really? What is this, the "Irreducible Complexity" argument, businesses are either born as God or can't exist?! Are you also going to say that Minecraft couldn't, with Minecraft's now mult-BILLION profit, produce a Shroud if it wanted too? ...
Well, there was the bit about replying from my phone... so yeah. Couldn't really reply to it all. I'm pretty open about what I'm doing when it comes to these articles. No clue what else you think is going on.
And you're one to talk about cherry picking, Mr. Kettle. The very first section in that article is "Education Means Protection." Kind of suggests the tone for the rest of it, so picking out examples I used of what to look out for isn't exactly providing context. And, yeah. I also discussed the use of social engineering principles to support moral, provide inspiration, and to support mentorship, which is a foundational component of leadership. All of which covered in Army Field Manual 22-100, if you'd care to do any additional research.
w/r to cutting you off, if you'll go back and look, it looks like the rest of your post just got placed in under the quote line... because there's a glitch on with the forums that sometimes put the last post outside the quote box and you have to copy-pasta to put it back inside. If any at the end got missed, probably just went past the buffer and it's not like I would have noticed... you know. Phone and all.
For KSP and Minecraft, you really don't know what you're talking about, mate. Both of those games were developed by really small teams over the course of years. Neither had much in the way of assets, other than very basic assets created by the team in question. Sure, they could have crowdfunded or something and developed faster, but it just wasn't how they wanted to do it. Shroud, Crowfall, and other games like that just can't work like that. They need cash to purchase assets immediately, and they also need faster time-to-market than something like MC or KSP does. When you're looking at big games like MMOs with a lot of models in them, most of those models are purchased from somewhere (like the Unity store in SotA's case) and then modified. Software, people, and assets all cost money. Also, player-asset systems and game servers (neither of which Minecraft or KSP have) also costs money. Are there better ways, or should games avoid crowdfunding? Excellent questions, and I think really worth talking about. Trying to use MC or KSP as the example, though. Those are just really bad choices. You should have picked something like RUST or another smaller game more comparable.
Now, with respect to my points about working with the city, veterans, ect...
Aron_Swordmaster said: And yet your own byline here on this very article currently says this:
" where he runs his company and works with the city government to promote geek culture"
Are you working in a more engineering focused, security field, or are you working in promoting geek culture... or is it both?
Not that it matters by itself; but again, this is what's so enfuriating about defenders of Shroud of the Avatar. You honestly treat it like a cult, and will twist and turn the meanings of words constantly in order to always service the higher goal of protecting the game... and treat the rest of us as if we are morons because we notice what you've literally just said right there in front of our eyes. Your byline declared you work in advocacy. Why are you trying to deny now that you do?
You didn't say that? I thought you said that. Maybe I was wrong about you saying that and just answered when I thought someone had got off the rez to make ad hominem attacks about my work in the city and as an advocate. I probably imagined it, because it's kind of a really dumb point to make anyway.
But you know what I find amazing about detractors of... well, any game? That they care enough to put this much effort in convincing people the game sucks. Why do you guys even care at all? It's not your money. There's a game out there right now that I think is a pile of garbage and that is ripping people off to an insane degree. I have absolutely no desire to go tell the fans their wrong about it, though. It's their money, and there are some legitimate things to like about it. If they like what they're getting and think it's worth it, then it's worth it to them, and that's what matters.
I kind of have to conclude that it's purely for the troll, but then that makes even less sense to me. I don't really get why people enjoy pretending to be particularly dense or obnoxious on the internet. Which leads to your point about how I treat my readers...
I actually assume my readers are intelligent. That's why I often try to work in some Shakespearean, historical, or philosophical reference, or some other random bit of subtle (and sometimes not-so-subtle) nerdery for my readers to giggle over. I never try to hide when I like a game, and if I'm doing periodic articles about a game, you can be sure I like either it or the people behind it.
Then again, maybe it's all a trick. Maybe when I say I like a game, and then write about why I like a game, I'm really just trying to trick you into not liking the game. But if I know that you know that I don't like a game, but I'm saying and writing about the game, maybe it's a trick to get you to like that game... but what if you know, that I know, that you know that I like (or was it dislike) a game... or OH! What if I know that you know, that I know, that you know, that I .... whatever a game? OMG, it won't stop!
I believe these guys just recently offered a free trial no? In which case means there is no need to further endorse the game since people can just go in and see it first hand without any need to decipher what someone else is saying. I guess the Shroud team sent word to this site and needed to get it out there,so the sites marketing team said,ok we will put something out there for $$$.
There lies another problem,i want articles that are heart felt,passionate about the game and not just there because the site said we will pay you some money to do one on so and so game.Like how does forced articles do anyone any favors,i mean outside of the BUSINESS end of things?
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
@Pierrenard, agree completely. Last time we did a free trial, the guilds organized and were feverishly trying to recruit people joining and teach them the ropes. Lots of people do nothing but gather and craft so you'll be right at home.
Comments
How much for an ounce of his tears when SotA flops upon "release" and his days of milking Ultima are finally over?
And yet your own byline here on this very article currently says this:
" where he runs his company and works with the city government to promote geek culture"
Are you working in a more engineering focused, security field, or are you working in promoting geek culture... or is it both?
Not that it matters by itself; but again, this is what's so enfuriating about defenders of Shroud of the Avatar. You honestly treat it like a cult, and will twist and turn the meanings of words constantly in order to always service the higher goal of protecting the game... and treat the rest of us as if we are morons because we notice what you've literally just said right there in front of our eyes. Your byline declared you work in advocacy. Why are you trying to deny now that you do?
I also find it very, very hard to believe that someone who wrote this article on Social Engineering on his company website doesn't know what "astroturfing" is in regards to advocacy. Even if it's not a common political term in the circles you run in there, there's a whole wikipedia article on it. It's an extremely long established term in both media and political sciences. You may not have known the word, but had you googled it, you'll know exactly what activities I was talking about.
Here's another one for you; "The Streisand Effect". I mention that because I went back to cross check my own memory, rather than just assume I was right, I discovered that when the constant obvious bias and denials got people wondering just why you were so invested, one found not just your Security company, but that there was a marketing company owned by someone of the same name and based in the same city too.
That could be an honest coincidence. But when you combine it with such patronizing presumptions and manipulative "social engineering" of people, the Streisand Effect kicks in with ultra hard force, and it increases the suspicion, justified or otherwise, that it is the same person.
Which is why I raised such an arch eyebrow at the fact that you claimed not to know what Astroturfing is... and yet completely ignored all the other things you've also stated directly yourself here on these same forums.
And that's fine, you like what you like... if, if, IF it didn't also seem like when you felt it could be used against the game again, you ignored what you'd openly stated elsewhere and gave just a pat, and patronizing response to concerns about bias you yourself know about, because you'll excuse yourself from a review at launch because of that bias.
So too for comments like "well how would you suggest they fund the game?" when you must know for years the debate on the Shroud forums was that things like Minecraft and KSP have proven the model of low early backer prices with full access to the game in the future can bring in literally billions. Shroud has chosen to go the Ayn Rand elitist Libertarian wealth makes right route, and you must be aware of that. You like it; don't patronize us by pretending we know that we don't, and we argued against it for years in turn.
It's not that you like the game that's the issue; it's that you and Portalarium and the rest of the remaining backers treat us like even our own experiences are so worthless you can lie to our faces about what we know to be true, and not think that it even matters..
Hence my prior disgust too with Chris Spears deliberately cherry picking figures, and then blaming us somehow for the fact he doesn't want to count all the 35,000 linked Steam accounts that no longer play as his "real audience".
THAT is why so many of us don't just let what is turning out to be another not-very-good-kickstarted-game go. THAT and the fact we grew up on the Virtues of Ultima just like you did, and we now see them being absolutely urinated on by a product we desperately wanted to love, but which treats us like dirt just because we don't think the product is good enough.
And which thinks we don't know what 71 divided by 35 adds up too.
Brrrr filthy stuff....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Wow. There's a lot wrong there. Not sure I can get it from my phone, so I'll give it a shot.
No, I hadn't heard the term. In context, I thought it was some other project. But knowing what it is, no. Just because I like something and choose to write about it, doesn't mean it's some strange shell game. I like it. I write about it. I also like Crowfall, so I write about that. It's not a review. I'm biased, which is why I wouldn't do a review on either game. It's an article about what they're doing with notes about what I like. There's nothing nefarious about it, or hidden. I actually take a net loss on each article, because they don't cover the cost of gas. I do it because I enjoy it, and it makes video game related expenses tax deductible.
As far as what I do... I own a cyber company. I also have a 501c3 that helps vets, so I'm heavily involved in those industries in the city. Do instance I met with our mayor and city manager last week to talk about an open data policy for the city, and a way to tie veteran transition support to the project. That weekend before, I had breakfast with some of our tourism bureau folks about how to get more events like PAX to the city and retain more tech talent, which involved a conversation about culture. So yeah. Cyber type business, geek culture, city. Not sure why that's something you'd find confusing.
No idea what the marketing company is. Just check the state website and you'll easily be able to tell who the officers are. May be illegal though. They would have had to ask my permission or I there's if they were named first.
W/r to the rest, you might find that it's just people that like their game. If you don't, it's not like anyone cares. You guys are trying to convince people who like a game that they shouldn't like a game. That's not really rational.
And with minecraft and ksp,both games I have a ton of time in, you're talking a massive difference in overhead and development effort. Not really the same thing, and there's no way shroud could follow that model. And that's a business assessment, nothing to do with liking it or not
At some point during this journey the devs forgot about making a good quality game first. It seems about the times they realized they could keep selling pledges and could make a lot of money off POT's and that soaked up around 2 years of their time focusing on them.
I don't know about others that spent a lot of money like I did, but early on I was excited about the idea of Shroud of the Avatar maybe being a successor to Ultima Online. In the beginning it looked like that would be possible, as time went on it appeared greed, lack of structure and a clear vision for this game, and lack of innovation replaced quality and features for Shroud. Flash forward to 2017, I feel like a fool for believing in this group of devs, and spending money on this project. I wouldn't have spent so much on this game had I known what it would become. It has become an abysmal disappointment of a game. It looks bad visually, the game mechanics like combat are truly uninspiring, boring, and clunky, the world itself is ugly and either muddy or dusty looking with lack of details and creativity. The other features in this game like fishing, agriculture, questing, and storyline all feel very thrown together and are primitive and boring, the loot system is boring and very uninspiring. The only people that seem to be left are high level backers, and we are jumping ship daily. Many that are left are unfriendly and often attack people that have difference of opinions on their forums and have helped to drive me away.
The main features of this game today seems to be to make one grind for hours on end and buy cotos from their store, and take up as much as your time to travel as possible. Cotos in game rarely, rarely, ever drop because they purposely keep the numbers very low. This has not become the game that was pitched to me in the Kickstarter. It's become a cash grabbing grinding game, with an outrageously expensive cash store, and as someone else stated, it does feel like a cash grabbing app game. I know none of the items in their store are must have items, but just look at the pricing scheme of it it looks greedy and desperate. A lot of the items in the store are the price of a full fledged triple-A game or more, it's ridiculously overpriced for pixels. I left Shroud for all these reasons.
I know these people are your friends and you want to help out so I don't blame you for that, you probably just like to write as well and are entitled to your opinion on the game you play.
My opinion though is for anyone that's thinking about buying this game, wait, try a free trial when it comes around and don't spend any money until you've played it. It's the quality you'd expect of a free to play game with cash shop. Save your money. Anyone I know personally, I tell them to stay clear of it, it's not worth the money and their money would be better spent on a quality game such as Elder Scrolls Online that is rich in visuals, combat, questing, and storyline and they have a reasonably priced shop if there's interest to buy things.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
Interesting thing about the word "forum," is that it's by definition not private. So, no worries.
First, I'd say that as someone who backed the game, you absolutely have a dog in the fight. Feeling like they missed the target you felt they were aiming at is a completely valid criticism. I'm not a huge fan of the engine and art style choices. I think that had they abandoned realism early and gone for something more cartoony (a la WoW and Crowfall), they would be in a lot better visual shape right now. They have fantastic artists on staff who have done some great work, but I suspect this is something that just kind of ended up in place and it was too late to change when they realized it might not have been the right track.
This is actually a really clear example of one of the downsides of crowdfunding a game. There are certain tracks you place yourself on that you can't switch from when you realize another direction might be better. I think that had it been a more traditional development, it's probable that we'd have seen a different graphical direction. That's just me speculating. I've never asked or been told anything officially on that score.
You are wrong about the POTs, though. Those things are a gold mine because they take virtually no effort to create, and they've been selling like hotcakes. Whatever problems you have with the game, POTs have been nothing but beneficial and I can't think of a single downside to them. If there is one, then it is definitely not developer time investment. Return on Investment there is insane.
I also disagree with the CotOs. Yeah, they're hard to get in game, but they don't really have any real effect that matters. It's not like having none is actually a problem. In fact, and seriously no favoritism here, you guys that call this project a cash grab are flat out wrong. I'm not kidding. There are a ton of ways they could make a lot more money here. There is not a single thing in the cash shop that you actually need to pay real money for, or that by not having you some how aren't competitive in the game.
Sure, maybe someone can get an xp boost, or a dropoff point for stuff, or something, but it has no actual statistical impact on your ability to play the game. SotA has it's problems, but the cash shop just isn't one of them. You guys really kind of hurt your argument by bringing it up.
Other than that, completely valid post with some good points, man. I even agree 100% about the trials. They should be having them every month, and folks should definitely check the game out before dropping money on it. It's not going to be for everyone, and in part because there is a lot of grind in it. I've warned a few people off too, because I knew it wasn't their sort of game. On the other hand, I have a few friends who are fans and like this sort of thing, so I've suggested they give it a shot.
If it's not what you're into, there's nothing wrong with passing it by.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I think I will just stay away.
Serious question. I'm pretty surprised that in all the positions I've taken over the years, the issue you take with me is humor. I find that a really interesting comment. Sorry, if that's a bit tangential. Just piqued my curiosity.
I notice that you again cherry pick the points you want to respond too; did you, or did you not write the article on Social Engineering that's under your name, on what you state is your company webpage?
We know why you won't address that directly, as you state as such there; it's about trying to create a sense of positivity, to get the "such mighty powers" that come with engineering your social appearance. You want us to imagine you posting with a smile about Shroud of the Avatar.
Even when you get caught passing off Bullshots as in game footage, like you did with the character creation renders, where it was obvious that you were just passing on patch notes, and not actually talking honestly to your audience.
We also know why you also resort to the hypocritical dark arts side of smearing your opponents by declaring no one cares, and they aren't rational;
But people these days online are far more media savvy than that; you can redefine "Social Engineering" to what ever you wish to try and label it as, but even those of us who aren't familiar with Newt Gingrich's "Language - A Key Mechanism For Control" (and I'll bet you are, as that's the seminal work you're referencing) can clearly see that you're doing exactly what you elsewhere state you know how to do and define.
So too with all the talk about working with Veterans. Sure, you probably actually do that; but you're mentioning it right now, instead of the actual substance of the post you refer too, to try and prime the audience to see you sympathetically, and critics of the game as not.
And THAT, again, is what we get annoyed about. You even had the sheer gall to cut off the actual concluding paragraphs of my response, and blamed your phone for it. What? You can't apparently read with the good old Mk.1 Eyeball and then just remember what someone said, and then reply to it?
We do you the credit of knowing you're not as forgetful as that. Do us the credit of acknowledging we're talking about something you understand as well as we assume you do.
And as for this...
Are you seriously going to try and claim that businesses can never "ramp up"? Really? What is this, the "Irreducible Complexity" argument, businesses are either born as God or can't exist?! Are you also going to say that Minecraft couldn't, with Minecraft's now mult-BILLION profit, produce a Shroud if it wanted too?
All it has to do is get there. Shroud of course actually started with a greater investment than Minecraft. Near $2m on Kickstarter alone, remember? Again, why do you treat your audience as if they can't even remember basic facts? Especially as that money came directly from us, where as Minecraft was Notch's hobbyist work.
What Minecraft and KSP proved is that by allowing people to invest in a smaller product sooner, they could raise the funds to complete it later... and then go on to become runaway successes. From a "business perspective, nothing to do with liking it or not", your argument is ridiculous.
The only reason Shroud can't do that is because the game didn't take off.
We're not arguing about the game; outside of the echo chamber, we can all see the basic facts. We're arguing about that you the remaining backers can't treat people who disagree with you about that game's quality with even the slightest amount of honesty or respect.
We're talking about your behaviour.
Which is why Kickstarter is probably ultimately going to prove a fad; people just don't trust the business model, or those who defend it any more. Something something Dark Side, eh?
Well, there was the bit about replying from my phone... so yeah. Couldn't really reply to it all. I'm pretty open about what I'm doing when it comes to these articles. No clue what else you think is going on.
And you're one to talk about cherry picking, Mr. Kettle. The very first section in that article is "Education Means Protection." Kind of suggests the tone for the rest of it, so picking out examples I used of what to look out for isn't exactly providing context. And, yeah. I also discussed the use of social engineering principles to support moral, provide inspiration, and to support mentorship, which is a foundational component of leadership. All of which covered in Army Field Manual 22-100, if you'd care to do any additional research.
w/r to cutting you off, if you'll go back and look, it looks like the rest of your post just got placed in under the quote line... because there's a glitch on with the forums that sometimes put the last post outside the quote box and you have to copy-pasta to put it back inside. If any at the end got missed, probably just went past the buffer and it's not like I would have noticed... you know. Phone and all.
For KSP and Minecraft, you really don't know what you're talking about, mate. Both of those games were developed by really small teams over the course of years. Neither had much in the way of assets, other than very basic assets created by the team in question. Sure, they could have crowdfunded or something and developed faster, but it just wasn't how they wanted to do it. Shroud, Crowfall, and other games like that just can't work like that. They need cash to purchase assets immediately, and they also need faster time-to-market than something like MC or KSP does. When you're looking at big games like MMOs with a lot of models in them, most of those models are purchased from somewhere (like the Unity store in SotA's case) and then modified. Software, people, and assets all cost money. Also, player-asset systems and game servers (neither of which Minecraft or KSP have) also costs money. Are there better ways, or should games avoid crowdfunding? Excellent questions, and I think really worth talking about. Trying to use MC or KSP as the example, though. Those are just really bad choices. You should have picked something like RUST or another smaller game more comparable.
Now, with respect to my points about working with the city, veterans, ect...
And yet your own byline here on this very article currently says this:
" where he runs his company and works with the city government to promote geek culture"
Are you working in a more engineering focused, security field, or are you working in promoting geek culture... or is it both?
Not that it matters by itself; but again, this is what's so enfuriating about defenders of Shroud of the Avatar. You honestly treat it like a cult, and will twist and turn the meanings of words constantly in order to always service the higher goal of protecting the game... and treat the rest of us as if we are morons because we notice what you've literally just said right there in front of our eyes. Your byline declared you work in advocacy. Why are you trying to deny now that you do?
You didn't say that? I thought you said that. Maybe I was wrong about you saying that and just answered when I thought someone had got off the rez to make ad hominem attacks about my work in the city and as an advocate. I probably imagined it, because it's kind of a really dumb point to make anyway.
But you know what I find amazing about detractors of... well, any game? That they care enough to put this much effort in convincing people the game sucks. Why do you guys even care at all? It's not your money. There's a game out there right now that I think is a pile of garbage and that is ripping people off to an insane degree. I have absolutely no desire to go tell the fans their wrong about it, though. It's their money, and there are some legitimate things to like about it. If they like what they're getting and think it's worth it, then it's worth it to them, and that's what matters.
I kind of have to conclude that it's purely for the troll, but then that makes even less sense to me. I don't really get why people enjoy pretending to be particularly dense or obnoxious on the internet. Which leads to your point about how I treat my readers...
I actually assume my readers are intelligent. That's why I often try to work in some Shakespearean, historical, or philosophical reference, or some other random bit of subtle (and sometimes not-so-subtle) nerdery for my readers to giggle over. I never try to hide when I like a game, and if I'm doing periodic articles about a game, you can be sure I like either it or the people behind it.
Then again, maybe it's all a trick. Maybe when I say I like a game, and then write about why I like a game, I'm really just trying to trick you into not liking the game. But if I know that you know that I don't like a game, but I'm saying and writing about the game, maybe it's a trick to get you to like that game... but what if you know, that I know, that you know that I like (or was it dislike) a game... or OH! What if I know that you know, that I know, that you know, that I .... whatever a game? OMG, it won't stop!
If you were smart you would be trying to REPAIR the damage, but nope.
Just bury it in the backyard and blame it on the haters.
~~ postlarval ~~
In which case means there is no need to further endorse the game since people can just go in and see it first hand without any need to decipher what someone else is saying.
I guess the Shroud team sent word to this site and needed to get it out there,so the sites marketing team said,ok we will put something out there for $$$.
There lies another problem,i want articles that are heart felt,passionate about the game and not just there because the site said we will pay you some money to do one on so and so game.Like how does forced articles do anyone any favors,i mean outside of the BUSINESS end of things?
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You're so funny!