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Thank You Zelda Breath of the Wild, I do have a Brain!

tixylixtixylix Member UncommonPosts: 1,288
For years the MMO Veterans have been saying how we're sick of hand holding in MMOs. Developers have just put the gamers down and told us how stupid we are, how we do not want hard games any more. Zelda comes along, drops you into a world and tells you to get on with it, they treat you with the respect you deserve and let you figure it out. One thing I've hated for so long is quest/mission markers on maps, they make the world feel so fake and they end up designing the world so everything is in little hubs. Zelda gets rid of this, lets you discover everything on your own and it makes the world feel so much better as a result.


Developers have been saying how players do not want the world any more, how they hate traveling and we've been going to this hub based design for years now. However it turns out developers are lazy, they're blaming the players for their failures and bad world design. Players do not want to be in boring worlds that offer no value, they do however want to be in rich worlds like the one of Zelda's. Dayz proved years ago that you need to design your gameplay around the world, you cannot just have a world as a backdrop, it needs to be a world.

I'm so happy Zelda came out and did this, I think it's going to game open world design for years to come, no more Ubisoft school of design. Does any one remember just how amazing EverQuest felt back in the day? This big open scary world where you had to figure it all out yourself, there were no quest markers or arrows to show you the way. I'm finally hoping we're now going back to that, because we want to spend time in an MMO where playing is the reward, not one that feels like it has to give you rewards every 5 seconds because playing it is boring.
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Comments

  • WoeToTheVanquishedWoeToTheVanquished Member UncommonPosts: 276
    Because you're playing an offline game that won't last more than 30 days of exploration and completion. 
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member EpicPosts: 3,466
    edited March 2017
    Wurm Online. 

    And comparing a average offline RPG to an mmo is dumb. 




  • F2PlagueF2Plague Member UncommonPosts: 232
    Wurm online is hardly relevant... I can come out and spew some dumb shit like Lineage 2 at this rate. Its open world. But is also aged as all hell just like the craptastic Wurm online.
  • ThaneThane Member EpicPosts: 3,534
    edited March 2017
    like WoW? WoW is a completely open world.

    if you think the WoW devs failed with what, atm 5 to (in it's max) 12 or 13 million users?
    sorry, but i think YOU guys failed to understand what game design is about.

    it's not about giving YOU your perfect game, but about selling it to the masses.

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,067
    Single player games have to only worry about the single player experience. Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Games have to also consider the interaction and preservation of the other players to maintain the multiplayer atmosphere.

    In a single player game you do not have to worry about players complaining about the time it takes to travel to a dungeon to meet up with other players or the loss of other players as a result of their refusal to travel. There are many factors that go into the changes MMORPGs have undergone over the years. Not debating the validity or even if the changes are for the better merely that single player games do not have the unique issues MMORPG games have. 

    If you want to compare Zelda compare it to Skyrim or Witcher 3 or Fallout 4 or other single player games. That is of course if your aim was to compare open worlds in single player games and not merely to criticise MMORPGs.
    Chamber of Chains
  • LobotomistLobotomist Member EpicPosts: 5,963
    Wurm Online. 

    And comparing a average offline RPG to an mmo is dumb. 
    Yea....no not really.

    Empty world where all you can do is craft stuff and build houses. not really appealing to most



  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,903
    Wurm Online. 

    And comparing a average offline RPG to an mmo is dumb. 
    Yea....no not really.

    Empty world where all you can do is craft stuff and build houses. not really appealing to most
    But since it's not single player all that is amplified by community interactions...

    TBH it would probably be a pretty bad game, if I didn't have it all wound up in nostalgia for being the game that taught be how fun asynchronous group play can be.

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    edited March 2017
    cheyane said:
    Single player games have to only worry about the single player experience. Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Games have to also consider the interaction and preservation of the other players to maintain the multiplayer atmosphere.

    In a single player game you do not have to worry about players complaining about the time it takes to travel to a dungeon to meet up with other players or the loss of other players as a result of their refusal to travel. There are many factors that go into the changes MMORPGs have undergone over the years. Not debating the validity or even if the changes are for the better merely that single player games do not have the unique issues MMORPG games have. 

    If you want to compare Zelda compare it to Skyrim or Witcher 3 or Fallout 4 or other single player games. That is of course if your aim was to compare open worlds in single player games and not merely to criticise MMORPGs.

    First paragraph:
    The interaction of other players for multiplayer in mmos fails miserably.  It's totally clear in that. 

    Second paragraph:
    Travel time can be improved, your thinking is 2004 design.  In fact all issues in mmos can be improved by design.

    Last:
    I don't see why you can't compare on or off line as far as easy and hand holding.  This is what the topic is about.

     
  • DragnelusDragnelus Member EpicPosts: 3,503
    All you have to do is unequip your weapons, walk up to the dog, and use the "attack" button. You should see the pink cloud of affection! Now we can all agree, best game ever amirite?

    If you duck and the dog ducks too, you can spin around and it will chase its tail












  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,885
    edited March 2017
    I think you can take a game into your own hands. 

    When you next play an online game turn off quest tracking, don't use the map. Play it the way you want. Don't use the transport run everywhere and don't get a mount.

    If you want the single player experience you can get it by tailoring the game to your requirements.

    See the thing is you don't simply want the things that make the game more Everquest like but what you want is for other people to play it the same way. You want the current MMORPGs to make games that do not have these "quality of life improvements" (don't hang me that is what they call it). You can actually play the game without using these quality of life improvements but that would be a personal choice.

    Hand holding is up to you in my opinion. 

    I know you're going to say it is not the same thing because the game was not designed like that for everyone but since you're comparing a single player game to an MMO why not turn the MMO to a single player experience.

    Problem is you will have to take responsibility for your needs. Most people want game developers to fulfil their wants at the expense of other players.

  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,759
    I have no idea if Zelda is that thing you describe, but as a general notion it is a game like his many mmorpg players are looking for. Away from themeparking with handholding and fake world and back to focusing on the open world and open ended content (like everquest had). Yeah and for the 100th time themepark and sandbox is not connected to pve and pvp, it is a matter of game design and how the environment is made.. Is the game made for the world (open world and/or sandbox) or is the world made for the game (themepark) - prime examples of this are everques1 vs wow.
  • PwltPwlt Member UncommonPosts: 27
    Zelda is fantastic.
    UO, EQ, AC, AO, RM, WOW, AC2, SWG, EQ2, GW2, RIFT, TERA, AA, TSW.
  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member EpicPosts: 6,959
    edited March 2017
    Yawn, so you're praising the most critically acclaimed game of the generation, probably one with a budget of a hundred million dollars, probably more even (and at least that is in the triple A MMORPG department), the game they made to sell the new console.

    Ehh what? The game was and always has been developed for the WiiU and due to many delays, they ended up making the decision to port it to the Switch as well and make it a simultaneous launch.

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    JeroKane said:
    Yawn, so you're praising the most critically acclaimed game of the generation, probably one with a budget of a hundred million dollars, probably more even (and at least that is in the triple A MMORPG department), the game they made to sell the new console.

    Ehh what? The game was and always has been developed for the WiiU and due to many delays, they ended up making a port for the Switch too to coincide with launch.

    From what I have experienced, those delays were well worth the wait.

    Zelda BotW has taken many MMORPG troves and implemented them brilliantly into the game.

    There are many things an open world MMORPG can take back from Zelda. One of my favorites is having to plan around the weather.

    The immersion factor of the game is amazing.

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member EpicPosts: 6,959
    laserit said:
    JeroKane said:
    Yawn, so you're praising the most critically acclaimed game of the generation, probably one with a budget of a hundred million dollars, probably more even (and at least that is in the triple A MMORPG department), the game they made to sell the new console.

    Ehh what? The game was and always has been developed for the WiiU and due to many delays, they ended up making a port for the Switch too to coincide with launch.

    From what I have experienced, those delays were well worth the wait.

    Zelda BotW has taken many MMORPG troves and implemented them brilliantly into the game.

    There are many things an open world MMORPG can take back from Zelda. One of my favorites is having to plan around the weather.

    The immersion factor of the game is amazing.

    Exactly!  It really is one of the most amazing games I have played (still playing btw. Not even at 10% at the moment lol) in a long long time.

    I never managed to get into any Zelda game before, but this one...... pfffhh.... it really sucks you in! The atmosphere, quality and Scope. It's Incredible.

    This game really is a labor of love.
  • BorlucBorluc Member UncommonPosts: 255
    Thane said:
    like WoW? WoW is a completely open world.

    if you think the WoW devs failed with what, atm 5 to (in it's max) 12 or 13 million users?
    sorry, but i think YOU guys failed to understand what game design is about.

    it's not about giving YOU your perfect game, but about selling it to the masses.
    Wow is the opposite of what he was talking about.  You are led around by the hand everywhere.   

    According to your logic, McDonald's is what all dining should be about.  Some of us desire more and don't subscribe to bigger is better.  Success is a point of view. 
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    edited March 2017
    laserit said:
    JeroKane said:
    Yawn, so you're praising the most critically acclaimed game of the generation, probably one with a budget of a hundred million dollars, probably more even (and at least that is in the triple A MMORPG department), the game they made to sell the new console.

    Ehh what? The game was and always has been developed for the WiiU and due to many delays, they ended up making a port for the Switch too to coincide with launch.

    From what I have experienced, those delays were well worth the wait.

    Zelda BotW has taken many MMORPG troves and implemented them brilliantly into the game.

    There are many things an open world MMORPG can take back from Zelda. One of my favorites is having to plan around the weather.

    The immersion factor of the game is amazing.
    Yeah, just watching my son play it has been rewarding; I haven't played it yet myself but I can appreciate everything that's gone into it just by being a spectator.
    Watching my son play it... I couldn't stand it ;) I had to run out and get my own Switch.

    Bastard said he was going to lend me his WII U, but then he sold it to buddy ;)

    I'm not shyly going to say that it's the best open world game I've ever had the pleasure of playing. I'm completely hooked and its the only Nintendo game and console I've ever owned for myself. I did play and enjoy Mario 64 back in the day, but it was my kids ;)

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member EpicPosts: 6,959
    edited March 2017
    laserit said:
    laserit said:
    JeroKane said:
    Yawn, so you're praising the most critically acclaimed game of the generation, probably one with a budget of a hundred million dollars, probably more even (and at least that is in the triple A MMORPG department), the game they made to sell the new console.

    Ehh what? The game was and always has been developed for the WiiU and due to many delays, they ended up making a port for the Switch too to coincide with launch.

    From what I have experienced, those delays were well worth the wait.

    Zelda BotW has taken many MMORPG troves and implemented them brilliantly into the game.

    There are many things an open world MMORPG can take back from Zelda. One of my favorites is having to plan around the weather.

    The immersion factor of the game is amazing.
    Yeah, just watching my son play it has been rewarding; I haven't played it yet myself but I can appreciate everything that's gone into it just by being a spectator.
    Watching my son play it... I couldn't stand it ;) I had to run out and get my own Switch.

    Bastard said he was going to lend me his WII U, but then he sold it to buddy ;)

    I'm not shyly going to say that it's the best open world game I've ever had the pleasure of playing. I'm completely hooked and its the only Nintendo game and console I've ever owned for myself. I did play and enjoy Mario 64 but it was my kids ;)

    Hehe. Me and my 5 and half year old son have their own Switch and he loves the game.

    He has so much fun, gathering stuff and cooking food. Catching and taming horses (he is better at it than me lol) and beating Golems for gems to sell.

    He was super excited and proud of buying his house and fully unlocking it, saving up every rupee ingame.

    ( ...... just have to help him with some of the more complex boss fights :proud: )


    He hasn't touched his 3DS since. Completely forgotten about Pokemon and Yo-kai Watch.  It's all Zelda now. :awesome:
  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    JeroKane said:
    laserit said:
    laserit said:
    JeroKane said:
    Yawn, so you're praising the most critically acclaimed game of the generation, probably one with a budget of a hundred million dollars, probably more even (and at least that is in the triple A MMORPG department), the game they made to sell the new console.

    Ehh what? The game was and always has been developed for the WiiU and due to many delays, they ended up making a port for the Switch too to coincide with launch.

    From what I have experienced, those delays were well worth the wait.

    Zelda BotW has taken many MMORPG troves and implemented them brilliantly into the game.

    There are many things an open world MMORPG can take back from Zelda. One of my favorites is having to plan around the weather.

    The immersion factor of the game is amazing.
    Yeah, just watching my son play it has been rewarding; I haven't played it yet myself but I can appreciate everything that's gone into it just by being a spectator.
    Watching my son play it... I couldn't stand it ;) I had to run out and get my own Switch.

    Bastard said he was going to lend me his WII U, but then he sold it to buddy ;)

    I'm not shyly going to say that it's the best open world game I've ever had the pleasure of playing. I'm completely hooked and its the only Nintendo game and console I've ever owned for myself. I did play and enjoy Mario 64 but it was my kids ;)

    Hehe. Me and my 5 and half year old son have their own Switch and he loves the game.

    He has so much fun, gathering stuff and cooking food. Catching and taming horses (he is better at it then me lol) and beating Golems for gems to sell.

    He was super excited and proud of buying his house and fully unlocking it, saving up every rupee ingame.

    ( ...... just have to help him with some of the more complex boss fights :proud: )
    Get used to it ;)

    My kids are 25, 23, 22 and 19. When it come to video gaming  they wipe the floor with my sorry ass ;)

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • RasiemRasiem Member UncommonPosts: 318
      Anyone who thinks adding quest markers and making games easier was better for sales is an idiot. All those changes did is piss people off that were passionate about gaming, if those changes were never made from what I see and read the industry would have been better off. When the youth that games right now gets a little older they will realize they were just a target market and hate it just like we did then have the same argument for difficulty.
  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,667
    edited March 2017
    The only benefit to no quest markers, is hope or belief that some other guy will miss the quest and be behind you in achievements.  But guess what?  The Wiki will have all the quests listed and located, some one may even make an add on mod to display map markers and NPC quest giver icons.  

    Let me assure you that when Z:BotW was in development, no one was thinking of the player.  They were think how much it would cost to develope of Qc a quest marker system.  So thank the cheap skate that kept his wallet closed.  Well at least until the DLC and mods come out.

    When a developer spends money on something and a player doesn't utilize it, then the Return on Investment is near naught.  That is why we ID developed content so that players use it and we get a return on our investment.  The player's fun should not be dependant on other players no experiencing content.  If it does, then they should seek help.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,667
    Wurm Online. 

    And comparing a average offline RPG to an mmo is dumb. 
    This game, started by Notch, had this feature.  Did anyone else try it?  I especially like the Horticulture system and variety of fruit trees.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,667
    F2Plague said:
    Wurm online is hardly relevant... I can come out and spew some dumb shit like Lineage 2 at this rate. Its open world. But is also aged as all hell just like the craptastic Wurm online.
    The only problem that P4F have with Wurm is that it has a subscription.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    Konfess said:
    The only benefit to no quest markers, is hope or belief that some other guy will miss the quest and be behind you in achievements.  But guess what?  The Wiki will have all the quests listed and located, some one may even make an add on mod to display map markers and NPC quest giver icons.  

    Let me assure you that when Z:BotW was in development, no one was thinking of the player.  They were think how much it would cost to develope of Qc a quest marker system.  So thank the cheap skate that kept his wallet closed.  Well at least until the DLC and mods come out.
    Actually there are some quest markers but not in the traditional sense. You will see a small exclamation mark with a red background as you pass by a quest giver and when you activate a quest in your log, it will usually put a highlight on your map of where you need to go next. Only one quest can be activated at a time and activating only means that it will put a marker on your map.


    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • JeroKaneJeroKane Member EpicPosts: 6,959
    laserit said:
    Konfess said:
    The only benefit to no quest markers, is hope or belief that some other guy will miss the quest and be behind you in achievements.  But guess what?  The Wiki will have all the quests listed and located, some one may even make an add on mod to display map markers and NPC quest giver icons.  

    Let me assure you that when Z:BotW was in development, no one was thinking of the player.  They were think how much it would cost to develope of Qc a quest marker system.  So thank the cheap skate that kept his wallet closed.  Well at least until the DLC and mods come out.
    Actually there are some quest markers but not in the traditional sense. You will see a small exclamation mark with a red background as you pass by a quest giver and when you activate a quest in your log, it will usually put a highlight on your map of where you need to go next. Only one quest can be activated at a time and activating only means that it will put a marker on your map.


    Only the Main scenario quests give real hints where to go.

    a lot of the side quest only put a marker on the map of the Quest NPC, so you know where to turn it in again. So most of the time you just have to solve descriptions and riddles as where to go and what to do.
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