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Pledging/Early Access - The Ultimate Hype Killer

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  • DammamDammam Member UncommonPosts: 98
    edited February 2017
    CrazKanuk said:
    ...

    I think this actually summarizes the "problem" perfectly. You're not wrong, but it isn't the process, it's the people. There is such thing as a hype curve and it looks something like this:


    [...]
    So, yes, crowdfunding is a hype killer, but it's only that way because of how we've been programmed to accept hype. We want things NOW!!! Many companies won't announce a product unless it will ship in the next 6-12 months. However, crowdfunding is a double-edged sword in this regard because if you don't have a good hype video then you won't make your targets, but if you have a great hype video then the expectations will skyrocket, but you know you'll ultimately let people down.
     [...]
    I like your graph, by the way, @CrazKanuk.

    I'm not sure if you can say this is how we've been programmed to accept hype, or if it is simply a natural response. Either way, when I hear a new idea that sounds interesting, I want to know more, to get informed. I suspect many people are that way. This presents a dilemma for the developer. Offer too little information, and people begin "reading between the lines", or in other words imagining things the developer did not intend. This can only end in disappointment. On the other hand, giving too much information during the early stages, when the developers are brainstorming and fleshing out their own ideas inevitably leads to the Peak of Inflated Expectations.

    Creative works often require an initial outpouring of ideas, which are then whittled down and refined into a clear, cohesive product. Cutting things and consolidating ideas, simplifying and reworking them, is all part of the process. To those creating the game (artists, programmers,etc.), these changes make sense. That's a product of hours spent bringing these ideas to life. To outside observers like us, however, these changes may seem like lost features or a shift in vision. Suddenly, the game we thought we were getting becomes something else.

    That is just it, though. If developers were selling a product after it had gone through the major iterative changes, then that is all the consumers would know. But hyping a game early on in development, when so much can (and should) change, can result in people (some, many?) feeling let down. Say too much during development, and people get frustrated (not to mention the added effort of discussing every design decision in detail). Say too little and people's imaginations take off, or else lose interest, or... It may also be difficult for people to separate their initial impressions of an early access title from the polished final product, and the natural downturns during development may sour some people's attitudes towards that final product.
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    Mark Jacobs replied to my post on the official forums, as shown below.  This gives me hope!  I so want to experience the RvR I loved in DAoC in a modern game.


    OK, thanks.  Is there an official release date for the beta?

    Not yet. When we get the new animation system/improved VFX system and the ability system all working together nicely we can give a date. We have two new big systems (animation, ability) interacting with an important one. Until they are in and working, any date we give would be B.S. and we don't do that sort of thing.

     

    It won't be much longer till we can do that, truly.

  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,703
    I don't think pledging kills the hype, but early access certainly can. 

    Instead, I feel like hype is deliberately generated at different points in the project lifecycle. During the initial funding round, CSE needed to get the word out in order to generate that funding, so they deliberately generated hype. That initial hype helps spread the word, so CSE got their funding and could build the game. 

    We're now in a lull because, well, CSE don't need the hype. They have their funding so they're building their game. It takes time but they no longer need the hype train behind them, they just need time to build the game. From a PR point of view, all they need to do in the years between funding and release is keep the game in the mind of the playerbase so they don't completely forget about it. 

    As we approach release, I'm sure their PR team will start a new hype train because, again, at that point it serves a purpose: getting people to buy and play the game. There is no point wasting money on PR if that PR serves no purpose. What would be the purpose of hyping CU now? They already have their funding, but we can't buy and play the game, so any large PR push now would be a waste. 
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    There's no miracles here.

    MMO's take a long time to dev, and inevitably these days fall upon some sort of early access program (even the big-budget ones do). The best way to hype for one MMO like this is not obsess with it, if you're waiting for it, if you backed it, checking its progress like once a month instead of once a day is far more healthy. ;) 
  • LeFantomeLeFantome Member RarePosts: 691
    Kyleran said:
    Try "disappointed."  But if you can't counter the argument, attack the person.
    You basically retitled your June 2016 thread on the same subject "Will CU ever effin release?" and shared your thoughts and feelings again on it.

    Most everything posted here mirrors those you received previously. So none of this is news to you.

    This game needs no hype, though Mark recently did say here on these forums he wished followers would talk the game up more, especially with regards to milestones achieved.

    As I told him once he's ready to let me play a more or less feature complete version I'll start paying the game more attention and be willing to discuss.

    More than anything this title needs a polished, feature complete launch to succeed.  MMORPGs are a sum of their parts which is why I disagree wirh the MVP approach so many are taking these days.

    When I pledged in the KS i had my doubts, still do and I still remain skeptical a fully featured MMORPG can be made for so little money.

    But then I recall they are really only building one side of DAOC, the RVR piece with some crafting so it is within the realm of possibility.

    So no, my original reply didn't address the "problem" you again raised.

    I find it sort of pointless to "shout at the devil"

    The game will come when it will, no telling the day at this poont.

    Whatever you say dude.

    The OP is right and you're wrong.
    As I don't feel to write a wall of text like you did..

    image
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    edited February 2017
    black777 said:
    Kyleran said:
    Try "disappointed."  But if you can't counter the argument, attack the person.
    You basically retitled your June 2016 thread on the same subject "Will CU ever effin release?" and shared your thoughts and feelings again on it.

    Most everything posted here mirrors those you received previously. So none of this is news to you.

    This game needs no hype, though Mark recently did say here on these forums he wished followers would talk the game up more, especially with regards to milestones achieved.

    As I told him once he's ready to let me play a more or less feature complete version I'll start paying the game more attention and be willing to discuss.

    More than anything this title needs a polished, feature complete launch to succeed.  MMORPGs are a sum of their parts which is why I disagree wirh the MVP approach so many are taking these days.

    When I pledged in the KS i had my doubts, still do and I still remain skeptical a fully featured MMORPG can be made for so little money.

    But then I recall they are really only building one side of DAOC, the RVR piece with some crafting so it is within the realm of possibility.

    So no, my original reply didn't address the "problem" you again raised.

    I find it sort of pointless to "shout at the devil"

    The game will come when it will, no telling the day at this poont.

    Whatever you say dude.

    The OP is right and you're wrong.
    As I don't feel to write a wall of text like you did..
    Beyond your capability to do so I suspect.

    Btw, I'm rarely wrong, usually only when I give other people more credit than they are due. ;)

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 16,947

    <snip>
     Look at the forum activity on here if you want an indication of how much interest there is these days.
    <snippety>
    Yes, we are rather silent but it will change in beta. Part of that is due to CU being in good hands = not desperate for attention.

    Also, we are talking about a MMORPG in full development for bit more than three years.
    I agree.  There really hasn't been much controversy about CUs development.  The worst you could say is that it's taken longer than planned but MJ has been very up front about the process.  Without controversy there really isn't much to discuss...other than the occasional "Looks good", "yeah looks good" posts.

    All time classic  MY NEW FAVORITE POST!  (Keep laying those bricks)

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  • WikkydWikkyd Member UncommonPosts: 9
    cheyane said:
    If you do not have the patience don't pledge.
    The reason I haven't pledged to CU isn't so much a lack of patience as it being cautious with my money. I've plopped money down on projects before only to get totally burned... Not that I won't take the risk to pledge to a game again (and I have, for example most recently to Albion Online and Pantheon) but I need some assurances that the developers are making REAL progress. I would pledge to CU if I saw such progress but I simply haven't.

    For example, I check their website and Youtube channel fairly regularly. I just don't see any real game progress. If progress is there then they sure are not showing it. Sure there is some concept art, some dev interviews, and some short clips of game-play but that is it. I mean come on, there should at least be some RECENT game-play videos that are longer than 20ish sec clips.

    The ton of Dev type interviews and tons of talking along with flashy hype videos really raises my eyebrows. I also see a lof of videos on their channel of just playing with dev tools like 3D Studio Max. Sorry that to me isn't showing progress. I used to see that kind of "progress" a lot with Daybreak. Right before they canned EQNext.

    Sorry folks I am a realist and not a fan boy. I would love to play the game and I would pledge if I saw real progress but I'm just not seeing it. Show me some real progress. Show me some alpha footage with the Devs actually running raids and what not IN GAME with EXTENDED duration videos so we can actually see the game-play and the performance of their engine in action, then I'll plop down some green for em. That is at least what I see with other developing projects like Panthon Online. Until then, I won't pledge.
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,838
    Try "disappointed."  But if you can't counter the argument, attack the person.
    I'm still drooling.


    I wasn't dumb enough to through my money at it though. Duh...
    "We see fundamentals and we ape in"
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    DMKano said:
    Dammam said:

    I hope CU is one of the successful ones. I'm just skeptical of this new direction in game development.

    Look at it from game dev perspective -

    1. Spend 100+ million on a game over 4-6 years, reveal it to public and realize that very few like what you made

    OR

    2. Develop a Minimally viable product/demo for less than 1 million, see what the traction is, get players to donate from early on and help fund development.


    No wonder why so many have switched to #2
    So we should pay because they have no confidence in their vision?

    Ah, game development. The only industry where employees are so self-absorbed and riddled with an over-developed sense of self-importance that they think they should be rewarded for being slackers and producing nothing but hype. 
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    KS hype and game pre-release hype are two completely different things. One is all about selling ideas to get you interested in funding the concept and the other one is based on an actual game almost ready to go with exciting features.

    As someone who didn't get caught up in the KS hype, I'm perfectly happy with the pace of the CU development and read everything about the things they're doing... and it all looks very good to me.

    I'll get hyped when there's something nearly ready to play.
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

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  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,030
    Back/invest in crowfall.  It's actually got something to show for the money its raised and it's quite good for a pre-alpha product.
  • will75will75 Member UncommonPosts: 365
    Back/invest in crowfall.  It's actually got something to show for the money its raised and it's quite good for a pre-alpha product.
    i'm an it tester. new baby. i login once a month, i just logged in and am amzed by the new graphics, 

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,030
    My video isn't around anymore (not twitch saavy) but I did about an hour and a half stream on how the game works, etc. 
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    Just checking in on the status of this game again.  According to this site, they planned a 2017 release.  They don't even have a playable alpha yet.  They're still working on basic systems.  Did they write their own game engine or something?  If so, man, that sounds like a sentence to an eternity in hell for a small, indie developer, even if they have experience in a successful, ancient MMO like DAoC.
  • ConstantineMerusConstantineMerus Member EpicPosts: 3,338


    Just checking in on the status of this game again.  According to this site, they planned a 2017 release.  They don't even have a playable alpha yet.  They're still working on basic systems.  Did they write their own game engine or something?  If so, man, that sounds like a sentence to an eternity in hell for a small, indie developer, even if they have experience in a successful, ancient MMO like DAoC.



    AFAIK They are working on releasing the beta, not the alpha. And it will be a real beta, not those broken shell of an idea other companies release as beta then work on years to add their original features. CU beta is oldschool beta. 

    I could be wrong though, I hope I'm not.

    Constantine, The Console Poster

    • "One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    You may be right.  As a backer, I'm currently waiting to hear back as to whether there's any kind of game world to log into and test right now, alpha or otherwise.  When I checked a couple of months ago, this was not the case.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,739
    Once someone is paying money they no longer view it as a beta, but as a paid product that many feel they now have input on, at least as far as vocalizing their displeasure.
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,531
    Yeah, still in the systems development stage.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505


    Just checking in on the status of this game again.  According to this site, they planned a 2017 release.  They don't even have a playable alpha yet.  They're still working on basic systems.  Did they write their own game engine or something?  If so, man, that sounds like a sentence to an eternity in hell for a small, indie developer, even if they have experience in a successful, ancient MMO like DAoC.


    Yes, they actually did write their own game engine...  The fact that you don't know this is telling.


    I've visited the CU site one time to look at the pledge tier pricing and even I know they built their own engine...  The fact that you don't know that but are complaining about the progression rate of development makes you seem less a concerned backer and more a childish backer stomping your feet because you can't have everything overnight.

    Oh, and MJ has also already updated us directly here on how well the engine is performing so far.  So again, maybe take some time to educate yourself about the game before bitching about it?

    image
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435






    Just checking in on the status of this game again.  According to this site, they planned a 2017 release.  They don't even have a playable alpha yet.  They're still working on basic systems.  Did they write their own game engine or something?  If so, man, that sounds like a sentence to an eternity in hell for a small, indie developer, even if they have experience in a successful, ancient MMO like DAoC.




    Yes, they actually did write their own game engine...  The fact that you don't know this is telling.


    I've visited the CU site one time to look at the pledge tier pricing and even I know they built their own engine...  The fact that you don't know that but are complaining about the progression rate of development makes you seem less a concerned backer and more a childish backer stomping your feet because you can't have everything overnight.

    Oh, and MJ has also already updated us directly here on how well the engine is performing so far.  So again, maybe take some time to educate yourself about the game before bitching about it?


    I agree not knowing they built their own engine makes me question what llevel if backer he is.

    Also the fact he posted his update one day after the weekly Friday email  I just read and the live stream Tyler also held makes me question if he's aware of them.

    He is correct on the point they have not promised a beta date yet, which every backer is painfully aware of.

    When the beta date announcement finally comes it won't be on external websites backers first hear of it.


    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003

    Torval said:

    Hype a game up, tell your "followers" to hype a game up, and then expect people to wait 4 - 8 years until anyone who didn't pay $1000 or more to see results. What could possibly go wrong.


    ^ This

    Haven't you heard? It's the new business model for success in the genre presently. All the cool kids are doing it.
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,885
    Backers and pledges make impatient masters.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited April 2017



    Torval said:



    An end user shouldn't have to know or care if they built their own engine. Again, making excuses and blaming the end user rarely if ever ends well. You can be right, and are, but it doesn't matter if the users get frustrated and abandon the project. There are list of software projects a mile long that were "right" and are now either flailing or dying a slow embarrassing death (hey, Open Office how's it going for you?). It's not just a game industry issue and won't make game projects immune.

    The point is you can tell everyone they're not supposed to be fatigued and frustrated but that won't prevent it, even if you're technically right.

    Also mmo's are going to be fucked going forward if they keep developing everything from scratch and taking 5 - 8 years to complete. Software isn't moving at that pace anymore. I get that OOB game engines are crap for mmos and the industry desperately needs a prebuilt solution but again, ignoring the problem and moving on with business as usual is going to cost the industry, especially indies and small projects.




    Be that as it may, it sounds less a legitimate concern and more childish whining when you make threads about the progress of development then subsequently make it clear you have no idea what progress they have made.

    I totally agree that crowdfunding has not turned out to be the user-friendly route it was touted as being on its arrival.  Doesn't excuse being largely ignorant of the topic but still trying to complain about it.  Camelot Unchained hasn't been selling shiny in-game swords, armors, or anything like that for hundreds of dollars a pop.  MJ has been very open about the challenges and delays faced, as well as the niche he's trying to fill.  It costs nothing but small amounts of time to educate one's self here.  Bashing this game in particular is quite ludicrous, considering the surrounding landscape of crowdfunded projects.  

    image
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505

    Torval said:









    Torval said:









    Kyleran said:































    Just checking in on the status of this game again.  According to this site, they planned a 2017 release.  They don't even have a playable alpha yet.  They're still working on basic systems.  Did they write their own game engine or something?  If so, man, that sounds like a sentence to an eternity in hell for a small, indie developer, even if they have experience in a successful, ancient MMO like DAoC.














    Yes, they actually did write their own game engine...  The fact that you don't know this is telling.


    I've visited the CU site one time to look at the pledge tier pricing and even I know they built their own engine...  The fact that you don't know that but are complaining about the progression rate of development makes you seem less a concerned backer and more a childish backer stomping your feet because you can't have everything overnight.

    Oh, and MJ has also already updated us directly here on how well the engine is performing so far.  So again, maybe take some time to educate yourself about the game before bitching about it?












    I agree not knowing they built their own engine makes me question what llevel if backer he is.

    Also the fact he posted his update one day after the weekly Friday email  I just read and the live stream Tyler also held makes me question if he's aware of them.

    He is correct on the point they have not promised a beta date yet, which every backer is painfully aware of.

    When the beta date announcement finally comes it won't be on external websites backers first hear of it.












    An end user shouldn't have to know or care if they built their own engine. Again, making excuses and blaming the end user rarely if ever ends well. You can be right, and are, but it doesn't matter if the users get frustrated and abandon the project. There are list of software projects a mile long that were "right" and are now either flailing or dying a slow embarrassing death (hey, Open Office how's it going for you?). It's not just a game industry issue and won't make game projects immune.

    The point is you can tell everyone they're not supposed to be fatigued and frustrated but that won't prevent it, even if you're technically right.

    Also mmo's are going to be fucked going forward if they keep developing everything from scratch and taking 5 - 8 years to complete. Software isn't moving at that pace anymore. I get that OOB game engines are crap for mmos and the industry desperately needs a prebuilt solution but again, ignoring the problem and moving on with business as usual is going to cost the industry, especially indies and small projects.








    Be that as it may, it sounds less a legitimate concern and more childish whining when you make threads about the progress of development then subsequently make it clear you have no idea what progress they have made.

    I totally agree that crowdfunding has not turned out to be the user-friendly route is was touted as being on its arrival.  Doesn't excuse being largely ignorant of the topic but still trying to complain about it.  Camelot Unchained hasn't been selling shiny in-game swords, armors, or anything like that for hundreds of dollars a pop.  MJ has been very open about the challenges and delays faced, as well as the niche he's trying to fill.  It costs nothing but small amounts of time to educate one's self here.  Bashing this game in particular is quite ludicrous, considering the surrounding landscape of crowdfunded projects.  




    I agree and have repeatedly said in these indie/crowd-funded mmo threads that most people shouldn't be buying in at all period. It doesn't change the frustration or perception of incompetence by end users though. I've recently been reminded of the lesson that being right doesn't always win the day.

    The other reason I'm less inclined to side with the projects is because they've created the situation and the problem by taking the money, and "be patient" isn't a good answer. They're not solving the issue and why should they? They have the money already.

    This really isn't any different than the complaints and frustration with Star Citizen. What did studios and the industry think was going to happen?


    I'm certainly in agreement.  I'm just not so sure CU is the right "poster child" for the issues of crowdfunding.  It's moving slowly, yes, but at least MJ's acknowledges it and has resisted the bluster projected by so many other projects.  If they can garner enough crowdfunding without selling in-game items for extraordinary amounts of cash, spending cash on things like annual "CamelotCons" and all this other strictly marketing hoopla so many other titles use...  Well that, at least, is an indication that the funds they receive from gamers are a true result of the feature set being described, as opposed to the marketing ploys being used.

    I've pretty much sworn off crowdfunding myself.  If I'm paying for access, the title will be in a state that I think it's worth the entry fee at that exact moment.  The idea of helping "shape development" is largely a myth used to entice gamers into buying in as early as possible.

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