Wall Hack out already for Star Marine

VorpalChicken28 · December 2016

insane

[mod edit: Removed video since it directly links to the 3rd party program in question]

MaxBacon · December 2016

I saw this today lol, work on hacks for one alpha? No idea why, there's no win from it at all, side of annoying other people. >.>

But end of the day, exploiting to start at earlier stages (it will happen in any way) can be dealt with in due time so when the game is out and stuff is for real they won't be much of a problem.

Work on anti-cheating systems would be pointless right now, in fact many popular games (online and MMO's) end up dealing with it after release.

DrunkWolf · December 2016

MaxBacon said:

I saw this today lol, work on hacks for one alpha? No idea why, there's no win from it at all, side of annoying other people. >.>

But end of the day is good exploiting to start at earlier stages, so this can be dealt with in due time so when the game is out and stuff is for real they won't be much of a problem.

Until then, let them exploit the hell of the game xD

Name one game that was hacked in beta/alpha and was able to deal with the problem when the game was launched.

If its already hacked now then it will only get worse.

MaxBacon · December 2016

DrunkWolf said:
Name one game that was hacked in beta/alpha and was able to deal with the problem when the game was launched.

If its already hacked now then it will only get worse.

Black Desert Online, The Division, etc... Darn even GTA V had massive issues with hacks.
On all of those titles hacking was a big complaint and drama before, not anymore.

Or the FPS front, you could find the same hacks for Battlefield 1 during its beta:
[mod edit]

Now this hacks will always exist, different devs take different approaches to them.
It only gets worse within devs who don't care.

gervaise1 · December 2016

Is it popular enough to merit this?

Will be interesting to see what CiG do going forward. Not just for Star Marine.

Titanfall's option was to lump everyone who used hacks together - so everyone on a more equal footing.

Another option: provide everyone with an aim bot. (Assume that suits are equipped with heat sensors, motion detectors, noise detectors (if there is an atmosphere) and whatever else.)

filmoret · December 2016

MaxBacon said:

I saw this today lol, work on hacks for one alpha? No idea why, there's no win from it at all, side of annoying other people. >.>

But end of the day, exploiting to start at earlier stages (it will happen in any way) can be dealt with in due time so when the game is out and stuff is for real they won't be much of a problem.

Work on anti-cheating systems would be pointless right now, in fact many popular games (online and MMO's) end up dealing with it after release.

If people are willing to throw money at this game then they are willing to hack it.

MaxBacon · December 2016

filmoret said:
If people are willing to throw money at this game then they are willing to hack it.

Man for me this is just "DUH", Star Citizen won't by some sort of magic escape hackers. This is what companies have to deal with.

You have Blizzard that for example let's you cheat, and from sudden they do pretty much ban waves, this is the normal and likely will be the same within Star Citizen.

Now there's no pretending the game won't have hackers, that'd be silly; that and gold sellers. They need is to actively get rid of them.

Quizzical · December 2016

MaxBacon said:

Work on anti-cheating systems would be pointless right now, in fact many popular games (online and MMO's) end up dealing with it after release.

To the contrary, if you don't consider security until a game launches, it's too late. A lot of things that are easy to implement if you have them in mind before you start writing code can be just shy of impossible to patch in later. Messing with fundamental systems as can sometimes be necessary to fix cheats after a game releases can easily break your game in unpredictable ways. That's fine while a game is in alpha and the game can be in a broken state for a while as you work on fixing it, but really bad after release.

MaxBacon · December 2016

Quizzical said:
To the contrary, if you don't consider security until a game launches, it's too late. A lot of things that are easy to implement if you have them in mind before you start writing code can be just shy of impossible to patch in later. Messing with fundamental systems as can sometimes be necessary to fix cheats after a game releases can easily break your game in unpredictable ways. That's fine while a game is in alpha and the game can be in a broken state for a while as you work on fixing it, but really bad after release.

The thing is, this "contrary" does not apply on the actual biggest games around.

You have Battlefield 1, you have Black Deserts, The Divison, GTA V and many many others that only dealt with hacking after they released their games. And the norm is via bans.

In fact, hacking tools are still available for all of these games as of right now, it's not there they fight them, it's by detecting the players who use them while in-game and apply consequences, famously known as BAN or as @gervaise1 mentioned, stuff as put the cheaters playing against each other. lol

From what I see by norm, the fight against hacking on online games comes not from prevention (make game un-hackable), but from detection & action.

I can put my point as:
- It's not about "This game can't be hacked!"
- It's about "If someone uses hacks on this game, there will be consequences."

The games who do not enforce consequences are the ones with most issues, I remember Black Desert and The Division as it took a while to even start banning people, it was their lack of action that made the number of hackers increase, with it, the problem. Once those two games took action, things normalized.

Hacking tools exist for the game? Nothing new here. The point will be how will they detect and get rid of who does that. Should they ban backers from playing the game during the alpha for such? idk..

Erillion · December 2016

Good.

Let them abuse and hack the system during Alpha and Beta. Find (almost) all the nasty things you can do to a game early on.

More time to patch them out and "punkbuster" them out.

Finding bugs is one main purpose of Alpha and Beta.

Have fun

SpottyGekko · December 2016

It would have been really depressing if their was so little interest in SC that nobody even bothered to write cheats and hacks for the game... :glasses:

Limnic · December 2016

MaxBacon said:

Quizzical said:
To the contrary, if you don't consider security until a game launches, it's too late. A lot of things that are easy to implement if you have them in mind before you start writing code can be just shy of impossible to patch in later. Messing with fundamental systems as can sometimes be necessary to fix cheats after a game releases can easily break your game in unpredictable ways. That's fine while a game is in alpha and the game can be in a broken state for a while as you work on fixing it, but really bad after release.

The thing is, this "contrary" does not apply on the actual biggest games around.

You have Battlefield 1, you have Black Deserts, The Divison, GTA V and many many others that only dealt with hacking after they released their games. And the norm is via bans.

In fact, hacking tools are still available for all of these games as of right now, it's not there they fight them, it's by detecting the players who use them while in-game and apply consequences, famously known as BAN or as @gervaise1 mentioned, stuff as put the cheaters playing against each other. lol

From what I see by norm, the fight against hacking on online games comes not from prevention (make game un-hackable), but from detection & action.

I can put my point as:
- It's not about "This game can't be hacked!"
- It's about "If someone uses hacks on this game, there will be consequences."

The games who do not enforce consequences are the ones with most issues, I remember Black Desert and The Division as it took a while to even start banning people, it was their lack of action that made the number of hackers increase, with it, the problem. Once those two games took action, things normalized.

Hacking tools exist for the game? Nothing new here. The point will be how will they detect and get rid of who does that. Should they ban backers from playing the game during the alpha for such? idk..

Problem is those solutions have also all required a large amount of additional man hours to implement after the fact, rarely are actually preventing the hacks, and tend to require a lot of man hours ongoing for managing the reports and sending out ban-waves (or whatever other punishment method is chosen).

The less you account for during development, the more time and money you waste on half-baked solutions later.

Limnic · December 2016

SpottyGekko said:

It would have been really depressing if their was so little interest in SC that nobody even bothered to write cheats and hacks for the game... :glasses:

Considering people still work on hacks for the likes of APB:R, interest really doesn't have to be that high for a game to be hacked. I mean you go to a forum like the one for cheatengine and look at the table, trainers, and scripts and you'll find a variety of hacks for just about any game.

This type of stuff is done because there are engineers who are bored, use it as practice, or simply treat it as a hobby as much as there are those that chase the next big product for third party script sales.

SpottyGekko · December 2016

Limnic said:

MaxBacon said:

Quizzical said:
To the contrary, if you don't consider security until a game launches, it's too late. A lot of things that are easy to implement if you have them in mind before you start writing code can be just shy of impossible to patch in later. Messing with fundamental systems as can sometimes be necessary to fix cheats after a game releases can easily break your game in unpredictable ways. That's fine while a game is in alpha and the game can be in a broken state for a while as you work on fixing it, but really bad after release.

The thing is, this "contrary" does not apply on the actual biggest games around.

You have Battlefield 1, you have Black Deserts, The Divison, GTA V and many many others that only dealt with hacking after they released their games. And the norm is via bans.

In fact, hacking tools are still available for all of these games as of right now, it's not there they fight them, it's by detecting the players who use them while in-game and apply consequences, famously known as BAN or as @gervaise1 mentioned, stuff as put the cheaters playing against each other. lol

From what I see by norm, the fight against hacking on online games comes not from prevention (make game un-hackable), but from detection & action.

I can put my point as:
- It's not about "This game can't be hacked!"
- It's about "If someone uses hacks on this game, there will be consequences."

The games who do not enforce consequences are the ones with most issues, I remember Black Desert and The Division as it took a while to even start banning people, it was their lack of action that made the number of hackers increase, with it, the problem. Once those two games took action, things normalized.

Hacking tools exist for the game? Nothing new here. The point will be how will they detect and get rid of who does that. Should they ban backers from playing the game during the alpha for such? idk..

Problem is those solutions have also all required a large amount of additional man hours to implement after the fact, rarely are actually preventing the hacks, and tend to require a lot of man hours ongoing for managing the reports and sending out ban-waves (or whatever other punishment method is chosen).

The less you account for during development, the more time and money you waste on half-baked solutions later.

Yup, it's that "Monday Morning Quarterback" expertise all over again, lol

For some reason that nobody can explain, all game developers in the world are braindead and inept. However, all they need to do is read the game forums and they'll find all the "fixes" for the problems that plague online games...

MaxBacon · December 2016

Limnic said:
Problem is those solutions have also all required a large amount of additional man hours to implement after the fact, rarely are actually preventing the hacks, and tend to require a lot of man hours ongoing for managing the reports and sending out ban-waves (or whatever other punishment method is chosen).

The less you account for during development, the more time and money you waste on half-baked solutions later.

There is no online game around that can't be hacked. Just think of a game and search for hacking tools for it, you WILL likely find tools for them.

If ban waves and other consequences were what required most effort and man-hours... Then why the games choose that path then?

What games are these that are un-hackable and do not resort to bans or other types of consequences for users who hack, because their games are impossible to hack?

Turrican187 · December 2016

It's not easy when it comes to detection - you can change the MD5 Hash of a program so it has a different signature - you can change the name of the program so that it starts as something like notepad.exe.

I prefer laying out traps - the variables come in 2 different versions - a memory readable form and an encrypted form which are both calculated and syncing themselfs - if there is an inconsistency > account flagged.

Those programs work in the memory and if it's something clientside there there is nothing a client could do to detect. If it is a cheat engine thats changing variables (i.e. supermissles) it's easy you just need to search for database inconsistencies and flag the account.

There are some good ways to prevent cheating. But I guess they will do something that will search your "computer" for hacks which is a sub par option.
If they want to implement "hack safe" variables they have to do it now else it would be too late and will lead to chaos with every single variable that is used.

Another story is the wall hacking stuff this is something that is almost not detectable and clientside, you don't need to change variables for this you just need the information that's already stored in the memory (this is when you just want to see not to shoot through walls which is a CE3 thing).

So yes the'll need to react soon or their house will be burnt down by cheatclients.

... Oh and don't do IP bans unlike in the USA, many countries are using IP-Pooling for their private customers. IP ban will only hit the innocent.

rpmcmurphy · December 2016

Bound to happen, hopefully CIG are on the ball and building prevention as an integral part of their code rather than slapping it on afterwards.

MaxBacon · December 2016

Turrican187 said:
I prefer laying out traps - the variables come in 2 different versions - a memory readable form and an encrypted form which are both calculated and syncing themselfs - if there is an inconsistency > account flagged.

So yes the'll need to react soon or their house will be burnt down by cheatclients.

That is exactly the thing. The games are not impossible to hack there is no magic solution that will "fix" hacks and other types of cheats. It's the detection that wins the day, these type of traps and things to make sure accounts get flagged, then they are manually dealt with, by ban waves or such.

Thing is, for they to react soon... That means they need to start banning backers from playing the game?

Prediction:
- "I was banned because I hacked, I WANT A REFUND!"

MaxBacon · December 2016

Forgedko said:

@maxbacon just getting name drop dont worry.

k, and when I talk about hacks this goes towards all cheating, included as this thread was about, stuff as aim-bots, macros and so forfh.

I'm actually interested into knowing these games where it is impossible to do that.

Say... One popular FPS game that is immune to things as aimbots.

kitarad · December 2016

Any PvP game will be hacked They even hack PvE games so any competitive game will be hacked no shock there.

Turrican187 · December 2016

MaxBacon said:

Turrican187 said:
I prefer laying out traps - the variables come in 2 different versions - a memory readable form and an encrypted form which are both calculated and syncing themselfs - if there is an inconsistency > account flagged.

So yes the'll need to react soon or their house will be burnt down by cheatclients.

That is exactly the thing. The games are not impossible to hack there is no magic solution that will "fix" hacks and other types of cheats. It's the detection that wins the day, these type of traps and things to make sure accounts get flagged, then they are manually dealt with, by ban waves or such.

Thing is, for they to react soon... That means they need to start banning backers from playing the game?

Prediction:
- "I was banned because I hacked, I WANT A REFUND!"

I meant to implement a system first, nevertheless one cheating player can drive away 5 non-cheating player ... better refund the cheaters than putting your project in risk

MaxBacon · December 2016

Turrican187 said:
I meant to implement a system first, nevertheless one cheating player can drive away 5 non-cheating player ... better refund the cheaters than putting your project in risk

Well if it was me on that case, I would just update the ToS to imply the impact exploitation of the game would mean towards your account and ability to play the game.

On Overwatch, if you buy and cheat on it and get banned, you possibly can get refunded due the legal "14 days" for any reason. But after that... there should be no right.

But I agree the detection and flagging of accounts using cheats should be the way to go first, but I can't stop feeling it would be rather contorverse do that level of moderation at this stage of dev if it would mean lock people from playing the game. However, If it grows to be a serious frequent issue then they'll have to start moderating the game.

filmoret · December 2016

I wonder..... I mean they have done so many blunders... What if they make HP for ship, parts, and player all client side. GG

Thane · December 2016

there is a problem with helios' framework.

for some reason, devs ignore it. i have no idea why, but either they simply CAN'T counter it, or they just don't give a fuck.

and the big engines (including the cryengine) have been hacked for quite some time

MaxBacon · December 2016

filmoret said:

I wonder..... I mean they have done so many blunders... What if they make HP for ship, parts, and player all client side. GG

Most likely is at this stage. Things like health are still not persistent in-between sessions what means it's not the server storing/controlling it yet.

They already talked about cheating several times, though it just won't be dealt with now. If things like Health are still to be made persistent on the game servers, then it's only after they can even worry about things as doing sanity checks.

Reminds me of Black Desert Online, they had the skill casting client-side, it was found out and exploited then they had to put the server controlling the skill casting timers.

As currently money and items are server-side (I think loadouts as well), so will the rest of the stuff as Player Health, ship damage, ammunition, and so forth. The whole deal about the full implementation of persistence is exactly that, make it work like it would on a MMO.

.edit - Reputation is also server-side, remember how before they just had to change their PC's time to cheat the respawn timer? RIP Cheat.

Limnic · December 2016

SpottyGekko said:

Limnic said:

MaxBacon said:

Quizzical said:
To the contrary, if you don't consider security until a game launches, it's too late. A lot of things that are easy to implement if you have them in mind before you start writing code can be just shy of impossible to patch in later. Messing with fundamental systems as can sometimes be necessary to fix cheats after a game releases can easily break your game in unpredictable ways. That's fine while a game is in alpha and the game can be in a broken state for a while as you work on fixing it, but really bad after release.

The thing is, this "contrary" does not apply on the actual biggest games around.

You have Battlefield 1, you have Black Deserts, The Divison, GTA V and many many others that only dealt with hacking after they released their games. And the norm is via bans.

In fact, hacking tools are still available for all of these games as of right now, it's not there they fight them, it's by detecting the players who use them while in-game and apply consequences, famously known as BAN or as @gervaise1 mentioned, stuff as put the cheaters playing against each other. lol

From what I see by norm, the fight against hacking on online games comes not from prevention (make game un-hackable), but from detection & action.

I can put my point as:
- It's not about "This game can't be hacked!"
- It's about "If someone uses hacks on this game, there will be consequences."

The games who do not enforce consequences are the ones with most issues, I remember Black Desert and The Division as it took a while to even start banning people, it was their lack of action that made the number of hackers increase, with it, the problem. Once those two games took action, things normalized.

Hacking tools exist for the game? Nothing new here. The point will be how will they detect and get rid of who does that. Should they ban backers from playing the game during the alpha for such? idk..

Problem is those solutions have also all required a large amount of additional man hours to implement after the fact, rarely are actually preventing the hacks, and tend to require a lot of man hours ongoing for managing the reports and sending out ban-waves (or whatever other punishment method is chosen).

The less you account for during development, the more time and money you waste on half-baked solutions later.

Yup, it's that "Monday Morning Quarterback" expertise all over again, lol

For some reason that nobody can explain, all game developers in the world are braindead and inept. However, all they need to do is read the game forums and they'll find all the "fixes" for the problems that plague online games...

This isn't new logic for devs and is conduct used in plenty of studios. Certain ones displaying such ineptitude and being called out on it is not the same as damning them all, and you introducing a hyperbolic comparison like that does nothing to contribute to the conversation.

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Wall Hack out already for Star Marine

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Wall Hack out already for Star Marine

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