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What trinity? DPS, tank, healing is a false "trinity"
TheScavenger
Member EpicPosts: 3,321
When I played Everquest 1 (and pretty sure Everquest 2 was the same) and City of Heroes. There was no trinity.
I could dps, tank or heal. Yes. However. There were also crowd control classes. I could do raids and control the raid mobs. In current MMOs, crowd control in a raid is unheard of. That offered a TON of possibilities.
But there were also buff classes (I know SWG had these). They were a support role. You would dance/entertain (in SWG), and in older MMOs, provide massive buffs to the group which helped other players a lot.
There was no trinity, because trinity is a failed design. But GW2 just removed tanking, but forgot about older MMOs where you could crowd control an entire dungeon, buff entire groups so the other players themselves do far better.
There were TONS of roles to do in a group. And it worked out really well.
There was no trinity, because that itself is a huge nerf to old ways of grouping. Especially when there were so many other roles you could fill into a group.
I could dps, tank or heal. Yes. However. There were also crowd control classes. I could do raids and control the raid mobs. In current MMOs, crowd control in a raid is unheard of. That offered a TON of possibilities.
But there were also buff classes (I know SWG had these). They were a support role. You would dance/entertain (in SWG), and in older MMOs, provide massive buffs to the group which helped other players a lot.
There was no trinity, because trinity is a failed design. But GW2 just removed tanking, but forgot about older MMOs where you could crowd control an entire dungeon, buff entire groups so the other players themselves do far better.
There were TONS of roles to do in a group. And it worked out really well.
There was no trinity, because that itself is a huge nerf to old ways of grouping. Especially when there were so many other roles you could fill into a group.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
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But I do agree, that there used to be WAY more roles in groups than there is now. There used to be tons of things you could contribute to a dungeon/raid or whatever. Not just three roles over and over.
Heck world of warcraft, as a mage...NONE of your crowd control abilities work in a raid, or even a dungeon. Making mage the most useless WoW class because of that. You are out in the world and can do TONS of stuff, suddenly in a group you are heavily nerfed.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
Just because there were other roles does not mean trinity wasn't big.
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Yes EQ1 as we all should realize a gem for it's time,imo the BEST of it's era,however and imo FFXi easily surpassed it.EQ2 gave us nicer graphics and imo was also a superior game over EQ1 but again both EQ games lacked in areas that FFXi was superior at.
Without getting into a deep longer discussion,FFXI had the best ever healer/tank/CC/soloist class ever created in a MMORPG>>>>Red Mage.Then it had the BArd and Black Mage also great at CC with sleep abilities.
Long story short,ANYTHING you think these other games have done alone,it is likely FFXI already did it and better.The ONLY thing i have seen better along the years is of no argument,EQ2 housing,still to this day the best and even when some games including the bigger games have none.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
All of his threads are cheap clickbait.
FFXI did have every role nailed down. They did each class and their role in the game perfectly. You could be an amazing soloist (though still harder than new MMOs are), an amazing buff role with CC thrown in, a crowd control focused role and all kinds of things. And none of them got turned off just because you entered a dungeon. Every class was the same in the world and in a group. Not like most MMOs that turn off tons of abilities just because you enter an instance.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
Daoc was like that too, 4 roles, maybe 5 if you counted a speedster, but that was usually worked in conjunction with another role of dps or CC depending on class and realm.
It never really was a trinity back then. Probably around WoW was when it truly became a trinity, and now even some games have less.
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
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LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
If everyone got banned because someone didn't like something they did or said, the entire internet wouldn't exist and be 100% empty and quiet.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
Look, i know you worship ffxi but it is just your opinion.
It's got to the stage where you can't make a post without mentioning what you keep claiming is the bestest mmo ever.
Not once have you said it's just your opinion, like wizardry's word is final.
I agree with that.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
When you don't want the truth, you will make up your own truth.
You don't like it therefore it is bad design.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
The problem is that the proverbial "Holy Trinity" is so perfect / efficient that oft times such things aren't ever needed in a dungeon or group setting. It isn't as easy as taking one out, as seen with GW2, as you'll just then get a zergfest of waypoint and bashing your head against something until it's gone in a game of attrition. Or cheap tactics like stacking and only bringing the most efficient combinations.
Such things tend to not offer great gameplay simply because the developer has to prepare for the lowest common denominator to be able to beat it. That is, the least efficient classes and any combination of roles. Even all healers or all squishy DPS. Which means there is less room for mechanics, systems and challenging content as a whole. That is, unless just throwing four DPS in a dungeon and having them wipe over and over again, but still make slow progress through attrition, is considered good design and gameplay.
As such, the most efficient "trinity" is implemented, and the developers know they can flood the room with mobs, have the bosses hit like a truck and have special mechanics that have to be countered by three specific roles (through mitigations or special role actions). Even GW2 had to acknowledge this with the release of their expansion and the introduction of those advanced classes. Likewise, WoW also made mention of this many times, and used it as an explanation for 20 man Mythic raiding and the difficulty thereof.
@TheScavenger the correct statement should have been, "Why does the trinity focus on healing?" I think the answer is because the system is easily understood by most gamers and easily implemented. Also, most melee DPS players hate to have crowd control skills used on them. This often results in the removal or PvP nerf of crowd control skills.
Let's look at a few CC skills.
Fear, Sheep, Sleep : Target A goes to sleep for 10 seconds. [DPS reduced to 0 for 10 seconds] {Target A's target, Target B receives no DPS from Target A for 10 seconds, or is healed for the damage done by Target A to Target B for 10 seconds}
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As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
You needed aggro control. That meant a warrior, ranger, paladin or SK in whatever era of Everquest you were in.
The trinity was Tank, DPS, Crowd Control for a basic group. Of course a healer would make things a bit easier, but with a good bard or enchanter you could go without one.
But, you are missing the most important aspect of the trinity. And that is encounter design. In Guild Wars 2, everyone solos the same monster. EQ2 does not need crowd control, otherwise you would have to have a bard/enchanter in your group. They still have good encounter design, just nothing for CC classes.
Tank
Damage Dealer
Healer
Support (Buff Class)
Crowd Control
Most mmos have removed the last 2 due to "Balance". This was really bad in my opinion as it really dumbed the game down and made it only focused on Max DPS, tank hold hate, Dodge the circle , and heal everyone until the boss falls.
FFXIV, WOW, and other mainstream mmos give the CC and Support roles to the other 3 archetypes, but they are not played the same at all.
As a healer your priority is healing, not support. As a Damage Per Second, your main job is dealing damage not crowd control. And half the bosses are so scripted in mmos today that they had to make them immune to everything so it could do its mechanics. In older mmos where CC and Support flourished even the strongest boss could be slowed, slept, paralyzed, stuned, and rooted. Today all you see is Resist, or Immune pop up.
I want things to return to the way they were and in my opinion the most balanced when looking at group gameplay. All jobs were really weak when alone, but when together they all complemented each other and you could take down the most powerful of enemies.
Support - Minimal healing, Minimal Damage, Minor CC, Focuses on increases the potency of the rest of the party.
CC - focuses on immobilizing and weakining on enemies, Does low damage, little to no healing
DD/DPS - Focused on killing stuff
Tank - Highest Survivability, mid to low damage. Takes the punch for the party.
Healer - Low Damage, focuses on keeping people alive, minor buffs and such.
Honestly out of all the mmos I played, FFXI shown the true spectrum of the job possibilities better then most mmos. Each job had multiple roles it could fill. Blood Tank (Standard mmo defense tank), evasion tank, Off Tank (multiple mobs usally), Support (Job varied depending on if they were in the tank or dps party), Main heal, raid heal, Main Pull, Main Kite, Main enfeeble, Main stun, DPS, Hate/Threat Management (THF), Mass Enfeebling (Aoe Sleep). Missing one of them needed for a fight, while not impossible to win, made the fight multitudes harder. The jobs were unique to the event you did in this game, not hey I am X job I will do the same rotation on every single fight like it is now in most mmos. Then again different game for a different era I guess, ppl like button mashing today.
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