Couldn't agree more Bill, although you knew damn well how some on this site would react. It only validates your points more though. I especially love all the "corrupt, shill, opinion" blablabla of those who think their opinion is fact and do not want to tolerate anything else.
Keep up the good work, if it keeps certain people out, please keep writing these articles so they might actually shut the door behind them, instead of just threatening to do so time and again.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Oh boy, someone tries to write a reasonable article about a universal truth(people complaining). Article becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as people do nothing but complain.
Good article, but you're trying to be reasonable with a people who are wholly incapable of being reasonable.
I should add 6.) complaining about the opinions of others... Then follow my own advice, I guess.
If only I could choose "Insightful", "Agree", "Awesome", and "LOL" simultaneously.
Might as well add another while you are at it, 7.) complaining how the genre is dead....Then make a sticky thread for all doom and gloom threads in the Pub. C'mon Bill! Make it happen for crying out loud!
Again, another corrupted journalist, time to say goodbye to this website, the mmo genre is dead
A bit over dramatic, don't you think? I may not agree on all points, but I love the spirited conversation that those with mature viewpoints can hold.
I wanted Bill to add "stop complaining about games you don't like. If you don't like them, move on and keep your trap shut". But...that could fuel enough volumes to put Encyclopedia Britannica to shame.
That's honestly a difficult point since many people that complain about game isn't because they do not really like it but they want it to change. Moving on from something that you want to be "better" isn't always easy to do. I'm guilty of that.
I think it's understandable that people are reticent to "let go" of a property and constructive criticism is always good. But there seems to be a knee jerk, "culture of hate" that pollutes gamer forums (or perhaps it's a byproduct of the internet?) that just isn't healthy.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Damn I'm so surprised no one has called you on this yet " if you have enough money to gamble on digital dress-up outfits..."
Apparently it's not gambling if the reward isn't cash
Otherwise... thanks for sharing your opinions about what shouldn't be criticized, or "whined about" as you put it. Can't help but feel that despite the other 4 points, your "trigger" was the discussion about ESO's recent decision to add Crown Store cosmetic loot boxes to the Crown shop.
You may have become inured to these loot boxes over time since they are now part of almost everything - not just in the cheap-ass "free games" from the app store, browser F2P MMOs or FB games as they once were but some of us haven't.
I (and apparently others judging from the massive thread at the ESO forums with 67% against) still view them as cheap-ass cash grabs that we associate with cheap-ass games and I'd rather not have them anywhere near the AAA MMORPGs I chose to play. That's without even getting into the questionable morality of targeting not just the very affluent (to whom you say "more power to you") but also the less affluent but impulsive who really can't afford it but can't help themselves.
I still find them objectionable in ESO in pretty much the same way I would find a rainbow unicorn mount objectionable: tacky and something that may belong somewhere else but not here.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Anybody who loves MMO's absolutely must complain about it. Studios are realigning resources to fuel their gamble box sales instead of making a compelling game experience. That's killing the genre.
It's straight up gambling (prize+chance+consideration). Regulation is coming sooner or later and it won't be pretty.
Again, another corrupted journalist, time to say goodbye to this website, the mmo genre is dead
A bit over dramatic, don't you think? I may not agree on all points, but I love the spirited conversation that those with mature viewpoints can hold.
I wanted Bill to add "stop complaining about games you don't like. If you don't like them, move on and keep your trap shut". But...that could fuel enough volumes to put Encyclopedia Britannica to shame.
That's honestly a difficult point since many people that complain about game isn't because they do not really like it but they want it to change. Moving on from something that you want to be "better" isn't always easy to do. I'm guilty of that.
I find though that most people only want it better for themselves not better for the game itself.
They don't think of how it affects the game itself or other people that are playing the game. It's all about me me me.
I said it about 3 years ago when the Pandoras box was opened and these little concessions were made here and there. People accepted these small things in the name of 'we need to to keep good games like this in development and being made so we have to stop being so stringent in how we think'.
Now fast forward those 3 years and there isnt a single MMO on the horizon that is worthy of hype. At least not one with enough actual substance to deserve the thought that it will actually be made. Are there any that will even be released in the next 3 years that would even come close to any of the so called 'failed' games from a few years ago? Hell I imagine some of them will make Vanguard SOH look like a masterpiece by comparison.
All we have are games that jumped that concessions shark almost immediately. Who come hat in hand or selling anything and everything in the game or selling a version of the game barely stable enough to have a launcher and people now just defend them blindly. Thats why MMOs are dead and will never be the same.
The only ones trying to claim they arent are the people whose livelihood depends on the perpetuation of the myth.
The reason we are where we are is people lowered their expectations, and now we have mantras for people to also stop complaining? Laughable.
People complained about Lotro, they complained about Warhammer, they complained about Age of Conan, they complained about SWOTOR, They complained about GW2, they complained about ESO. They complain about every game ever mentioned. Many of the complaints had merit, but at least those games got made and were and still are (with the exception of warhammer). And you know what , if ANY of those games were in development right now they would be complaining now as well. But ANY of those games would also be a HUUUUUUUUUUUGE step forward over what we can expect to see in the next couple years.
There is a reason why this site now covers so many NON MMOs. And the MMOs that are discussed and hyped here have a very small chance to even get released let alone released in the state they were originally hyped.
You know the genre is in freefall when Star Citizen is the 'best' chance in the next few years for an MMO to simply be released let alone one worth playing. That is if you still want to call SC an MMO.
On #3. P2W is a figure of speech that's not to be taken literally, when people say its p2w what they truly argue about is that they don't like the idea that gear in games should have anything to do with money. If classic roleplaying games had cash shop like mmorpg you would have a cash shop that sold you special costumes, +1 gear, health and xp potions in baldur's gate.
I don't want that garbage in any kind of game.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Again, another corrupted journalist, time to say goodbye to this website, the mmo genre is dead
A bit over dramatic, don't you think? I may not agree on all points, but I love the spirited conversation that those with mature viewpoints can hold.
I wanted Bill to add "stop complaining about games you don't like. If you don't like them, move on and keep your trap shut". But...that could fuel enough volumes to put Encyclopedia Britannica to shame.
Well of course people should NOT keep their mouth shut if they are tired of these devs pumping out essentially the same damn game for 10+ years. BDO is different and pretty remarkable (despite the monetization issues). Allowing devs to do whatever they want, without pushback is horrible idea. Just because some people have their feelings hurt on a forum, does not warrant stopping people from pushing back against some of the things that are going on within the genre.
Nothing gets me fired up more than when people are telling you to be silent when there are clearly issues within the genre...big issues.
Being purposely obtuse is not constructive either. My point, as I'm sure you well know, is that people go in and rain on other's fun without either having tried a game ever, or only for a limited time.
It's not the purpose to kvetch about games simply because you don't like them or the state of the genre. To run into, for example, a SWTOR thread and say, "THIS GAME SUXXOR!" just because you're personally dissatisfied with the genre as a whole is neither productive or warranted.
There are other, better avenues to affect change without going into every thread on any given game you (in the universal sense) don't like just because you "can".
Say what you will about Carebears they are what they are. But Noobs...
Well that is totally different. At one time or another ... WE WERE ALL
NOOBS .. we all did not know what was going on, what to do or how to do
it. People who put others down because they are new and do not know
should remember their first day in any game.
Again, another corrupted journalist, time to say goodbye to this website, the mmo genre is dead
A bit over dramatic, don't you think? I may not agree on all points, but I love the spirited conversation that those with mature viewpoints can hold.
I wanted Bill to add "stop complaining about games you don't like. If you don't like them, move on and keep your trap shut". But...that could fuel enough volumes to put Encyclopedia Britannica to shame.
Well of course people should NOT keep their mouth shut if they are tired of these devs pumping out essentially the same damn game for 10+ years. BDO is different and pretty remarkable (despite the monetization issues). Allowing devs to do whatever they want, without pushback is horrible idea. Just because some people have their feelings hurt on a forum, does not warrant stopping people from pushing back against some of the things that are going on within the genre.
Nothing gets me fired up more than when people are telling you to be silent when there are clearly issues within the genre...big issues.
Being purposely obtuse is not constructive either. My point, as I'm sure you well know, is that people go in and rain on other's fun without either having tried a game ever, or only for a limited time.
It's not the purpose to kvetch about games simply because you don't like them or the state of the genre. To run into, for example, a SWTOR thread and say, "THIS GAME SUXXOR!" just because you're personally dissatisfied with the genre as a whole is neither productive or warranted.
There are other, better avenues to affect change without going into every thread on any given game you (in the universal sense) don't like just because you "can".
Ahh, that clarifies your point. You really should have been that specific in your original post. It's less about being silent if you don't like something and more about those same three to four posters I would see in every BDO thread offering no info and just saying they hate the game. I think I understand your point now. Of course those people offer nothing, I just took that as a given that doesn't need to be addressed at all.
Again, another corrupted journalist, time to say goodbye to this website, the mmo genre is dead
A bit over dramatic, don't you think? I may not agree on all points, but I love the spirited conversation that those with mature viewpoints can hold.
I wanted Bill to add "stop complaining about games you don't like. If you don't like them, move on and keep your trap shut". But...that could fuel enough volumes to put Encyclopedia Britannica to shame.
Really though I want people to let us know if a game is bad...If they remain quiet about it then alot of us others are going to get burned (like No Mans Sky).......This should be a site about various opinions (good and bad) of games so we can get a handle on whether or not we want to play a certain MMO.
What complete garbage, flamebait artifcle tbh. When a character is dripping with gore and showing skeleton, if a company covers that up and replaces it with a bland version of the original, that is censorship.
Again, another corrupted journalist, time to say goodbye to this website, the mmo genre is dead
A bit over dramatic, don't you think? I may not agree on all points, but I love the spirited conversation that those with mature viewpoints can hold.
I wanted Bill to add "stop complaining about games you don't like. If you don't like them, move on and keep your trap shut". But...that could fuel enough volumes to put Encyclopedia Britannica to shame.
Stop complaining about game you do not like?, jesus. That is a terrible attitude and I can not believe you even came close to asking for that to be put into the article. I will also not be using this site again, the moderators seem to have an attitude problem with anybody that states a negative opinion on a game.
That comment by SBFORD although tic, is still another bit of flame bait
What complete garbage, flamebait artifcle tbh. When a character is dripping with gore and showing skeleton, if a company covers that up and replaces it with a bland version of the original, that is censorship.
Again, another corrupted journalist, time to say goodbye to this website, the mmo genre is dead
A bit over dramatic, don't you think? I may not agree on all points, but I love the spirited conversation that those with mature viewpoints can hold.
I wanted Bill to add "stop complaining about games you don't like. If you don't like them, move on and keep your trap shut". But...that could fuel enough volumes to put Encyclopedia Britannica to shame.
Stop complaining about game you do not like?, jesus. That is a terrible attitude and I can not believe you even came close to asking for that to be put into the article. I will also not be using this site again, the moderators seem to have an attitude problem with anybody that states a negative opinion on a game.
It's all in the presentation!!!! Think about that one.
I doubt there is any value in posting "this game is shit" and accompanying turd picture.
What exactly does a post like that contribute and yet we see it all the time people who have absolutely nothing to contribute to a game forum discussion except rubbish like that. People like that should be moderated and banned if they continue. They don't even play the game or else they would have more to say. They just enjoy seeing their words in print and pictures they find funny and idiots who come and add their agrees for shits and giggles.
Any time a poster spends time and uses his brain to come up with a well reasoned post it is welcome. I think that is not the type of post this OP is referring to at all. If you have a post that is written well without abuse I challenge you to show me where such posts have been moderated here.
What complete garbage, flamebait artifcle tbh. When a character is dripping with gore and showing skeleton, if a company covers that up and replaces it with a bland version of the original, that is censorship.
Except it's not.
If a game was just a "work of art" I would agree with you. But it's a product and one designed to make money.
The companies that create these games have an idea of how much money they want to make. If changing their product allows them into other markets they are going to do it.
If I was to write a series of short stories that had questionable material and some publisher approached me and asked me if I wanted to bring it to another country BUT I would have to take out some of that questionable material it would depend on whether those stories were completely written with artistic integrity in mind or if they were written to make me money. If they were just for the money, of course I'd change them for another market.
You are completely dismissing that these games are "products to make money". Of course the developers would like to have some artistic integrity in their work but at the end of the day, if bringing these products to different markets, markets with people/laws that have different sensibilities, means changing them a bit, then they are going to be changed.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
A bit over dramatic, don't you think? I may not agree on all points, but I love the spirited conversation that those with mature viewpoints can hold.
I wanted Bill to add "stop complaining about games you don't like. If you don't like them, move on and keep your trap shut". But...that could fuel enough volumes to put Encyclopedia Britannica to shame.
Imagine if the founding fathers of the US just decided to "move on and keep their trap shut" back 200+ years ago when England imposed the tea tax...
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
People complain because there is a passion, concern and there is love. The greater the passion, concern or love, the greater the complaint. We should worry more when the complaining stops. By then it will already have been much too late. For the passion, concern and love is gone, and the only alternative left is to quietly move on.
A bit over dramatic, don't you think? I may not agree on all points, but I love the spirited conversation that those with mature viewpoints can hold.
I wanted Bill to add "stop complaining about games you don't like. If you don't like them, move on and keep your trap shut". But...that could fuel enough volumes to put Encyclopedia Britannica to shame.
Imagine if the founding fathers of the US just decided to "move on and keep their trap shut" back 200+ years ago when England imposed the tea tax...
This is a private forum and yes they are entitled to moderate it as they think fit.
You are wrong on all accounts more or less. Gamers that pay for the games have 100% right to moan all they want about anything they feel like. If its f2p this is somewhat limited but if there is a cash shop of any kind moaning goes to 100% again.
You seem to believe that gamers are special kind of humans. Wrong again. Gamers are just like everyone else, selfish, spoiled, ignorant (by choice) and arrogant (out of fear). Of course they will complain.
I so agree with this. MMO'S are played by humans and most of them are jerks. The reason a game like swtor works is it plays like a singleplayer game. You can preach all you want about how people should act but it will never happen today. I started playing mmo's back in 99 and yeah it was really different back them. MMO'S weren't mainstream games and only computer geeks played them. It shocked you if you ran into a jerk. Today you expect it. Telling people to behave in a certain way is going to get you cursed at in mmo's.
Comments
Keep up the good work, if it keeps certain people out, please keep writing these articles so they might actually shut the door behind them, instead of just threatening to do so time and again.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Good article, but you're trying to be reasonable with a people who are wholly incapable of being reasonable.
If only I could choose "Insightful", "Agree", "Awesome", and "LOL" simultaneously.
Might as well add another while you are at it, 7.) complaining how the genre is dead....Then make a sticky thread for all doom and gloom threads in the Pub. C'mon Bill! Make it happen for crying out loud!
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
You may have become inured to these loot boxes over time since they are now part of almost everything - not just in the cheap-ass "free games" from the app store, browser F2P MMOs or FB games as they once were but some of us haven't.
I (and apparently others judging from the massive thread at the ESO forums with 67% against) still view them as cheap-ass cash grabs that we associate with cheap-ass games and I'd rather not have them anywhere near the AAA MMORPGs I chose to play. That's without even getting into the questionable morality of targeting not just the very affluent (to whom you say "more power to you") but also the less affluent but impulsive who really can't afford it but can't help themselves.
I still find them objectionable in ESO in pretty much the same way I would find a rainbow unicorn mount objectionable: tacky and something that may belong somewhere else but not here.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Anybody who loves MMO's absolutely must complain about it. Studios are realigning resources to fuel their gamble box sales instead of making a compelling game experience. That's killing the genre.
It's straight up gambling (prize+chance+consideration). Regulation is coming sooner or later and it won't be pretty.
They don't think of how it affects the game itself or other people that are playing the game. It's all about me me me.
Now fast forward those 3 years and there isnt a single MMO on the horizon that is worthy of hype. At least not one with enough actual substance to deserve the thought that it will actually be made. Are there any that will even be released in the next 3 years that would even come close to any of the so called 'failed' games from a few years ago? Hell I imagine some of them will make Vanguard SOH look like a masterpiece by comparison.
All we have are games that jumped that concessions shark almost immediately. Who come hat in hand or selling anything and everything in the game or selling a version of the game barely stable enough to have a launcher and people now just defend them blindly. Thats why MMOs are dead and will never be the same.
The only ones trying to claim they arent are the people whose livelihood depends on the perpetuation of the myth.
The reason we are where we are is people lowered their expectations, and now we have mantras for people to also stop complaining? Laughable.
People complained about Lotro, they complained about Warhammer, they complained about Age of Conan, they complained about SWOTOR, They complained about GW2, they complained about ESO. They complain about every game ever mentioned. Many of the complaints had merit, but at least those games got made and were and still are (with the exception of warhammer). And you know what , if ANY of those games were in development right now they would be complaining now as well. But ANY of those games would also be a HUUUUUUUUUUUGE step forward over what we can expect to see in the next couple years.
There is a reason why this site now covers so many NON MMOs. And the MMOs that are discussed and hyped here have a very small chance to even get released let alone released in the state they were originally hyped.
You know the genre is in freefall when Star Citizen is the 'best' chance in the next few years for an MMO to simply be released let alone one worth playing. That is if you still want to call SC an MMO.
This is a column. Even in a paper periodical columns are writers expressing their opinion. Get over it.
I don't want that garbage in any kind of game.
It's not the purpose to kvetch about games simply because you don't like them or the state of the genre. To run into, for example, a SWTOR thread and say, "THIS GAME SUXXOR!" just because you're personally dissatisfied with the genre as a whole is neither productive or warranted.
There are other, better avenues to affect change without going into every thread on any given game you (in the universal sense) don't like just because you "can".
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Barely surprising tho, mmorpg.com lost its soul years ago
Stop complaining about game you do not like?, jesus. That is a terrible attitude and I can not believe you even came close to asking for that to be put into the article. I will also not be using this site again, the moderators seem to have an attitude problem with anybody that states a negative opinion on a game.
That comment by SBFORD although tic, is still another bit of flame bait
What exactly does a post like that contribute and yet we see it all the time people who have absolutely nothing to contribute to a game forum discussion except rubbish like that. People like that should be moderated and banned if they continue. They don't even play the game or else they would have more to say. They just enjoy seeing their words in print and pictures they find funny and idiots who come and add their agrees for shits and giggles.
Any time a poster spends time and uses his brain to come up with a well reasoned post it is welcome. I think that is not the type of post this OP is referring to at all. If you have a post that is written well without abuse I challenge you to show me where such posts have been moderated here.
If a game was just a "work of art" I would agree with you. But it's a product and one designed to make money.
The companies that create these games have an idea of how much money they want to make. If changing their product allows them into other markets they are going to do it.
If I was to write a series of short stories that had questionable material and some publisher approached me and asked me if I wanted to bring it to another country BUT I would have to take out some of that questionable material it would depend on whether those stories were completely written with artistic integrity in mind or if they were written to make me money. If they were just for the money, of course I'd change them for another market.
You are completely dismissing that these games are "products to make money". Of course the developers would like to have some artistic integrity in their work but at the end of the day, if bringing these products to different markets, markets with people/laws that have different sensibilities, means changing them a bit, then they are going to be changed.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
People complain because there is a passion, concern and there is love. The greater the passion, concern or love, the greater the complaint. We should worry more when the complaining stops. By then it will already have been much too late. For the passion, concern and love is gone, and the only alternative left is to quietly move on.
I so agree with this. MMO'S are played by humans and most of them are jerks. The reason a game like swtor works is it plays like a singleplayer game. You can preach all you want about how people should act but it will never happen today. I started playing mmo's back in 99 and yeah it was really different back them. MMO'S weren't mainstream games and only computer geeks played them. It shocked you if you ran into a jerk. Today you expect it. Telling people to behave in a certain way is going to get you cursed at in mmo's.