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Black Desert / Chargebacks and u!

AlexanderVendiAlexanderVendi Member UncommonPosts: 375
in Black Desert Online
"BDO is classified as an ongoing service (take note of this... it's important for later).
PM Joshkua stated on their forums that there wouldn't be any P2W elements (an authorized representative of our version of BDO). Add-on's (pets, Costmetics etc) are purchasable for the product, BDO and are considered an investment/enhancement to the product. They're now introducing P2W elements.

Any written/verbal statement by an authorized representative of the product on their official communication mediums (posts, twitter, twitch live feeds etc) is legally binding in the EU and most states of the US. In the EU any ambiguity in statements etc are to go in the favour of the client/end user.

By introducing P2W and defying the statement from PM Joskhua Daum/Kaka have committed contractual fraud and false advertising. Therefor... All payments made related to the product are refundable via chargeback or Section 75 and depending on your card provider (Visa, MasterCard etc) can be reclaimed from 570days prior to the claim. Remember the important bit... on-going contract... Generally claims are possible for a timespan of 120 days. However there are a few exceptions including subscriptions, ongoing contracts and development investment/staged payments.... these carry a timeframe of up to 570 days with Visa."

Also note that if Kaka is still operating out of the EU then the EU regulations and protections apply to all clients and not just those residing within the EU.



Also daum is now sending out threatening e-mails to people confirmed via reddit

Greetings,

Due to recent events regarding our last announcement, we started to see a rise of the amount of chargebacks requested by our players. We feel that any situation involving money requires as much information as possible, and would like to make sure you are aware of what a chargeback is, and what consequences come with it.

First of all, what is a chargeback? A chargeback is requesting a refund from your bank or payment provider, bypassing the company that sold/provided the product. Bear in mind, the selling company will have a chance to investigate and dispute the chargeback.

Chargebacks are broken into two fundamentally different categories: Legitimate and Illegitimate.
Legitimate chargebacks are when you contest a payment because you have not received the goods or services you purchased, or because someone stole your credit card.
An illegitimate chargeback would be requesting your money back, after using a service for several months and deciding you don’t like it anymore.

In either case, it is understandable why someone would wish to get their money back, however, chargebacks should always be done with caution. A chargeback will not only cause you to lose access to the game, but it can also prevent you from purchasing it in the future. More importantly, we will investigate each chargeback, individually. If the chargeback is proven to be illegitimate, this could go farther than just the denial of your refund. Your Credit Score could be impacted. (“Creditworthiness” attached to each person, this is usually something mortgage companies and financial institutions will look into, before approving credit or offering services).

To conclude, requesting chargebacks should be done after cautious investigation from your part to know all of the possible consequences. Where a finalized chargeback would lead to the withdrawing of your game access, a cancelled chargeback will have no lasting effect on your account.

To allow you time to consider your decision, and fully assess the impact these changes will have on your enjoyment of Black Desert Online, we will not take action on your account until the 22nd August, after which time, any account with outstanding chargebacks will be closed.

Kind Regards,

GM Maelstrom
French/English Game Master



Go get your money back!
If enough chagebacks are being made against them , credit card company's have no choice but to side whit the consumer.

ps: if u think 20mil is ok for a costume , wait 1 week and check the prices then.

FU p2w
«13456

Comments

  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,772
    Wow, they must be getting a lot of chargebacks to resort to basically begging people to cancel them.

    Obviously THEY are the ones that are concerned about their credit, and rightfully so.
  • AlexanderVendiAlexanderVendi Member UncommonPosts: 375
    If u have not logged in the game yet and are against this bs move that they said they will NEVER DO , go ahead and file a chargeback complaint , call paypal or your cc company/bank because it is your right to get your money back 

    Misleading Advertising

    According to the Directive, misleading advertising is any advertising which, in any way, including in its presentation, is capable of:

    • deceiving the persons to whom it is addressed;
    • distorting their economic behaviour; or
    • as a consequence, harming the interests of competitors.

    When determining whether advertising is misleading, several factors shall be taken into account. These are:

    • the characteristics of the goods or services concerned;
    • the price;
    • the conditions of delivery of the goods or provision of the services involved;
    • the nature, attributes and rights of the advertiser.
    Just don't get on their login logs starting today and u can get your money back.

  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,401
    Jep, now all you need is a legally binding definition of what P2W actually is, and you are all ready to go.

    Oh...

    I think I detected a flaw in your argument....
    Free to play is currently broken
  • some-clueless-guysome-clueless-guy Member UncommonPosts: 227
    I did miss something from the previous posts.
    What do players actually ask to be refunded for? Subscription, cash shop items, box price?
    Also, assuming that this whole thing escalates into a class action against them, isn't the term "P2W" too open to interpretation in a court of law to expect any results?
  • AlexanderVendiAlexanderVendi Member UncommonPosts: 375
    edited August 2016
    hfztt said:
    Jep, now all you need is a legally binding definition of what P2W actually is, and you are all ready to go.

    Oh...

    I think I detected a flaw in your argument....
    Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

    There u go , first google post.
    Fits right in there.

    If u want me to elaborate how exactly that works .. no problem!

    But i don't really think i have to ...
  • AlexanderVendiAlexanderVendi Member UncommonPosts: 375
    edited August 2016
    I did miss something from the previous posts.
    What do players actually ask to be refunded for? Subscription, cash shop items, box price?
    Also, assuming that this whole thing escalates into a class action against them, isn't the term "P2W" too open to interpretation in a court of law to expect any results?
    No not really because they have falsely advertised their game.
    Look at it this way , or better yet go ahead and make a thread about it.

    *Would u of still bought bdo if they stated that they would be selling p2w / gold w/e in a couple of months after release?*


    It's the same principal as to going out to a restaurant and ordering something but after u get your order , the waiter comes back and hands u something else whit no opportunity of changing it....
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,353
    A legal precedent of "any change that a player doesn't like means you have to refund his money" would be the end of commercial MMORPGs, as it would basically mean a donation model is the only one allowed, as you can only keep a player's money until he decides he wants it back.  Whatever you think of the merits of this particular case, that would be catastrophic.

    After all, a change of items that used to not be tradeable now are is relatively minor as patches go.  MMORPGs that don't routinely make larger, more consequential patches than that are on life support at best.  Adding a bunch of new content usually doesn't incite the ire of players the way that this change has.  But which do you think a judge who isn't a gamer would find most consequential if required to make a legal ruling:

    1)  some items that used to be non-tradeable now are, with the same functionality as before
    2)  an additional dungeon or region has been added, along with new monsters and new loot
    3)  a major revamp to play balance, changing the mechanics and power of dozens of skills

    If (1) means that anyone who wants to can get their money back, then surely (2) and (3) would as well.  The consequences for the industry of effectively banning major patches would be devastating.  Let's not go there.
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 25,353
    Filterheadz said:
    I did miss something from the previous posts.
    What do players actually ask to be refunded for? Subscription, cash shop items, box price?
    Also, assuming that this whole thing escalates into a class action against them, isn't the term "P2W" too open to interpretation in a court of law to expect any results?
    No not really because they have falsely advertised their game.
    Look at it this way , or better yet go ahead and make a thread about it.

    *Would u of still bought bdo if they stated that they would be selling p2w / gold w/e in a couple of months after release?*


    It's the same principal as to going out to a restaurant and ordering something but after u get your order , the waiter comes back and hands u something else whit no opportunity of changing it....
    No, it's more like you buy something at a restaurant, get what you asked, and it's good.  So you go back to the same restaurant again later and the same thing happens.  Then the tenth time you go there, you see that their menu has changed and they don't sell what you like anymore.  So you demand your money back for all of the previous meals that you ate there.
  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,401
    Filterheadz said:
    hfztt said:
    Jep, now all you need is a legally binding definition of what P2W actually is, and you are all ready to go.

    Oh...

    I think I detected a flaw in your argument....
    Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

    There u go , first google post.
    Fits right in there.

    If u want me to elaborate how exactly that works .. no problem!

    But i don't really think i have to ...
    First Google hit does not win as a definitive definition. I can find you many very different interpretaions of the concept, and probably a few that will break your case.

    So unless you can find a legally binding definition somewhere (spoiler: you wont), you are just putting yourself in the firing line for being charged with credit card fraud by doing a chageback.

    Good luck.
    Free to play is currently broken
  • feroshusferoshus Member UncommonPosts: 164
    These chargebacks in gaming are pathetic. People act like the company owes them a virtual world to live in forever. Just move on with your life. Or get one, whichever.

    Not to mention it's been proven that Daum said early on they planned to do exactly what they've done. Good luck with your fraud though...
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    holdenhamlet said:
    Wow, they must be getting a lot of chargebacks to resort to basically begging people to cancel them.

    Obviously THEY are the ones that are concerned about their credit, and rightfully so.
    I chose the path of just walking away from the game, i am not saying people shouldn't initiate chargebacks if they feel they really do have valid reasons for doing so, but for me, i am uncomfortable with doing that kind of thing, plus, if at some future point, Daum/Kakoa or whatever they are going to be calling themselves, changes their mind and reverts to the none P2W model, then i can come back and play again. If they don't, then at least my concience is clear.
    There are lots of MMO's out there that i enjoy playing, its just from now on, BDO is not one of them.
    As a matter of note, i checked my bank statement, just to see how much i had spent in Daums cash shop over the last several months i had been playing the game, turns out i spent around £150, more than i have spent in the P2P games i am subscribed to.
    I don't know how that compares to other players, but if its at all indicative then all i can think is that the inclusion of P2W measures to the game are a matter of greed rather than necessity, and on that basis, i don't know that they can be trusted not to 'relax' even more their anti RMT stance in the near future.
    I am tempted to use one of Angry Joes 'infamous' sayings. 'They done F'd it up'  >:)
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    With billion dollar profits in gaming I think the industry can handle it.  

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • some-clueless-guysome-clueless-guy Member UncommonPosts: 227
    I'm still curious. I don't play bdo and the only knowledge about it that I have comes from forums. I understand what is going on with the changes, what these changes might bring and why there is this massive uproar, but I still don't get what the players are refunding.
    Is it just the items from the shop, because now they are not exclusive anymore?
    Or is it the box price?
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,003
    Probablsome-clueless-guy said:
    I'm still curious. I don't play bdo and the only knowledge about it that I have comes from forums. I understand what is going on with the changes, what these changes might bring and why there is this massive uproar, but I still don't get what the players are refunding.
    Is it just the items from the shop, because now they are not exclusive anymore?
    Or is it the box price?
    Probably just the initial purchase of the game.
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • GruntyGrunty Member EpicPosts: 8,657
    The statements about the effects on you and your credit when you do a charge back are accurate. At least in the U.S.  The negative effects of a charge back effect both parties. 
    "I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone.  It's not.  The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone."  Robin Williams
  • some-clueless-guysome-clueless-guy Member UncommonPosts: 227

    Sovrath said:
    Probablsome-clueless-guy said:
    I'm still curious. I don't play bdo and the only knowledge about it that I have comes from forums. I understand what is going on with the changes, what these changes might bring and why there is this massive uproar, but I still don't get what the players are refunding.
    Is it just the items from the shop, because now they are not exclusive anymore?
    Or is it the box price?
    Probably just the initial purchase of the game.

    If that is the case, then it's kinda hardcore! Buy the game, enjoy for weeks or months, then ask for the money back.

  • LIOKILIOKI Member UncommonPosts: 421
    Quizzical said:
    Filterheadz said:
    I did miss something from the previous posts.
    What do players actually ask to be refunded for? Subscription, cash shop items, box price?
    Also, assuming that this whole thing escalates into a class action against them, isn't the term "P2W" too open to interpretation in a court of law to expect any results?
    No not really because they have falsely advertised their game.
    Look at it this way , or better yet go ahead and make a thread about it.

    *Would u of still bought bdo if they stated that they would be selling p2w / gold w/e in a couple of months after release?*


    It's the same principal as to going out to a restaurant and ordering something but after u get your order , the waiter comes back and hands u something else whit no opportunity of changing it....
    No, it's more like you buy something at a restaurant, get what you asked, and it's good.  So you go back to the same restaurant again later and the same thing happens.  Then the tenth time you go there, you see that their menu has changed and they don't sell what you like anymore.  So you demand your money back for all of the previous meals that you ate there.
    Missing the point entirely. Once upon a time long ago the gaming industry was made up of gamers that built games for other gamers. They catered to what the customers wanted and things were good.

    Fast forward a few years later and now the gaming industry is made up of corporate giants who expect that gamers cater to whatever drivel they force upon them with zero repercussion. I don't take for granted the fact that profits directly influenced advancements in game development, I also know that almost every conglomerate is where it is because it's stepped on a few heads to get there, but gamers need to stand up and show a little spine towards being straight up lied to, otherwise this will continue to be the norm.

    Rant over.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,003
    Filterheadz said:


    By introducing P2W and defying the statement from PM Joskhua 
    Can you show us this statement? The only thing I've seen is the statement from the developers that "if" they were going to introduce this system there would be some control. But that doesn't mean they would never introduce it.
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • AlexanderVendiAlexanderVendi Member UncommonPosts: 375
    Quizzical said:
    Filterheadz said:
    I did miss something from the previous posts.
    What do players actually ask to be refunded for? Subscription, cash shop items, box price?
    Also, assuming that this whole thing escalates into a class action against them, isn't the term "P2W" too open to interpretation in a court of law to expect any results?
    No not really because they have falsely advertised their game.
    Look at it this way , or better yet go ahead and make a thread about it.

    *Would u of still bought bdo if they stated that they would be selling p2w / gold w/e in a couple of months after release?*


    It's the same principal as to going out to a restaurant and ordering something but after u get your order , the waiter comes back and hands u something else whit no opportunity of changing it....
    No, it's more like you buy something at a restaurant, get what you asked, and it's good.  So you go back to the same restaurant again later and the same thing happens.  Then the tenth time you go there, you see that their menu has changed and they don't sell what you like anymore.  So you demand your money back for all of the previous meals that you ate there.
    Ok , let's assume for the sake of argument that those meals u ate before hand where filled whit poop but they forgot to tell u that and they tolled u about it after your 10'th meal , what would u do then ? If u want to go on that road...

    Look man , the fact of the matter if , if they would of said when the game launched that they would be selling gold after a couple of patches , half of the current population if not MORE , wouldn't of bought the game .. that's fact!
  • AethaerynAethaeryn Member RarePosts: 3,149
    Quizzical said:
    Filterheadz said:
    I did miss something from the previous posts.
    What do players actually ask to be refunded for? Subscription, cash shop items, box price?
    Also, assuming that this whole thing escalates into a class action against them, isn't the term "P2W" too open to interpretation in a court of law to expect any results?
    No not really because they have falsely advertised their game.
    Look at it this way , or better yet go ahead and make a thread about it.

    *Would u of still bought bdo if they stated that they would be selling p2w / gold w/e in a couple of months after release?*


    It's the same principal as to going out to a restaurant and ordering something but after u get your order , the waiter comes back and hands u something else whit no opportunity of changing it....
    No, it's more like you buy something at a restaurant, get what you asked, and it's good.  So you go back to the same restaurant again later and the same thing happens.  Then the tenth time you go there, you see that their menu has changed and they don't sell what you like anymore.  So you demand your money back for all of the previous meals that you ate there.
    I would say more like buying a 10 meal pass. . getting to 4 and they take the item away.  Now, this is not so clear cut for an MMO, but there is some expectation that the menu won't change drastically in the first little bit.  A restaurant would refund you for the uneaten or nonredeemable meals.  This is impossible to decide in an MMO of course.  They can't keep it the same but this is a pretty important change.  There is no guarantee of course how long an MMO will even run, and everyones expectations would be different.  It is not quite as simple as you suggest.  I don't think it would end MMO development.  It might end some F2P companies or cause them to reconsider.

    It is a classic bait and switch in my opinion.

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    edited August 2016
    Grunty said:
    The statements about the effects on you and your credit when you do a charge back are accurate. At least in the U.S.  The negative effects of a charge back effect both parties. 
    I've done three chargebacks (with the same card) over the years and it didn't change my credit.  Perhaps if you do several a year...

    I once heard some people would buy clothes wear them once then return them the next day.  That stuff is probably what they're cracking down on.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • feroshusferoshus Member UncommonPosts: 164
    LIOKI said:
    Quizzical said:
    Filterheadz said:
    I did miss something from the previous posts.
    What do players actually ask to be refunded for? Subscription, cash shop items, box price?
    Also, assuming that this whole thing escalates into a class action against them, isn't the term "P2W" too open to interpretation in a court of law to expect any results?
    No not really because they have falsely advertised their game.
    Look at it this way , or better yet go ahead and make a thread about it.

    *Would u of still bought bdo if they stated that they would be selling p2w / gold w/e in a couple of months after release?*


    It's the same principal as to going out to a restaurant and ordering something but after u get your order , the waiter comes back and hands u something else whit no opportunity of changing it....
    No, it's more like you buy something at a restaurant, get what you asked, and it's good.  So you go back to the same restaurant again later and the same thing happens.  Then the tenth time you go there, you see that their menu has changed and they don't sell what you like anymore.  So you demand your money back for all of the previous meals that you ate there.
    Missing the point entirely. Once upon a time long ago the gaming industry was made up of gamers that built games for other gamers. They catered to what the customers wanted and things were good.

    Fast forward a few years later and now the gaming industry is made up of corporate giants who expect that gamers cater to whatever drivel they force upon them with zero repercussion. I don't take for granted the fact that profits directly influenced advancements in game development, I also know that almost every conglomerate is where it is because it's stepped on a few heads to get there, but gamers need to stand up and show a little spine towards being straight up lied to, otherwise this will continue to be the norm.

    Rant over.
    But they didn't lie. People have already posted an early statement by the dev saying that this could, and probably would happen. So what now? The restaurant analogy is totally correct, except that the restaurant told you in advance that the menu would change.
  • feroshusferoshus Member UncommonPosts: 164
    Aethaeryn said:
    Quizzical said:
    Filterheadz said:
    I did miss something from the previous posts.
    What do players actually ask to be refunded for? Subscription, cash shop items, box price?
    Also, assuming that this whole thing escalates into a class action against them, isn't the term "P2W" too open to interpretation in a court of law to expect any results?
    No not really because they have falsely advertised their game.
    Look at it this way , or better yet go ahead and make a thread about it.

    *Would u of still bought bdo if they stated that they would be selling p2w / gold w/e in a couple of months after release?*


    It's the same principal as to going out to a restaurant and ordering something but after u get your order , the waiter comes back and hands u something else whit no opportunity of changing it....
    No, it's more like you buy something at a restaurant, get what you asked, and it's good.  So you go back to the same restaurant again later and the same thing happens.  Then the tenth time you go there, you see that their menu has changed and they don't sell what you like anymore.  So you demand your money back for all of the previous meals that you ate there.
    I would say more like buying a 10 meal pass. . getting to 4 and they take the item away.  Now, this is not so clear cut for an MMO, but there is some expectation that the menu won't change drastically in the first little bit.  A restaurant would refund you for the uneaten or nonredeemable meals.  This is impossible to decide in an MMO of course.  They can't keep it the same but this is a pretty important change.  There is no guarantee of course how long an MMO will even run, and everyones expectations would be different.  It is not quite as simple as you suggest.  I don't think it would end MMO development.  It might end some F2P companies or cause them to reconsider.

    It is a classic bait and switch in my opinion.
    It's not like that at all. Like you said that would be impossible to determine in an MMO lol It's not bait and switch either, because they said it would probably happen right from the beginning.
  • LIOKILIOKI Member UncommonPosts: 421
    feroshus said:
    LIOKI said:
    Quizzical said:
    Filterheadz said:
    I did miss something from the previous posts.
    What do players actually ask to be refunded for? Subscription, cash shop items, box price?
    Also, assuming that this whole thing escalates into a class action against them, isn't the term "P2W" too open to interpretation in a court of law to expect any results?
    No not really because they have falsely advertised their game.
    Look at it this way , or better yet go ahead and make a thread about it.

    *Would u of still bought bdo if they stated that they would be selling p2w / gold w/e in a couple of months after release?*


    It's the same principal as to going out to a restaurant and ordering something but after u get your order , the waiter comes back and hands u something else whit no opportunity of changing it....
    No, it's more like you buy something at a restaurant, get what you asked, and it's good.  So you go back to the same restaurant again later and the same thing happens.  Then the tenth time you go there, you see that their menu has changed and they don't sell what you like anymore.  So you demand your money back for all of the previous meals that you ate there.
    Missing the point entirely. Once upon a time long ago the gaming industry was made up of gamers that built games for other gamers. They catered to what the customers wanted and things were good.

    Fast forward a few years later and now the gaming industry is made up of corporate giants who expect that gamers cater to whatever drivel they force upon them with zero repercussion. I don't take for granted the fact that profits directly influenced advancements in game development, I also know that almost every conglomerate is where it is because it's stepped on a few heads to get there, but gamers need to stand up and show a little spine towards being straight up lied to, otherwise this will continue to be the norm.

    Rant over.
    But they didn't lie. People have already posted an early statement by the dev saying that this could, and probably would happen. So what now? The restaurant analogy is totally correct, except that the restaurant told you in advance that the menu would change.
    People like you are why we can't have nice things.
  • AlexanderVendiAlexanderVendi Member UncommonPosts: 375
    I can already see how things will unfold and i am pretty confident about this statement...
    They will start milking people whit allot of cash first , selling costumes for only 20mil , then slowly going up in price when they notice that sales aren't as good as they want them to be.
    After a while , they will introduce more and more p2w stuff into the game up to the point where they will have to convert to f2p due to people leaving the game and after that .. well... game over.
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