Valve sued once again.

Brenics · December 2015

This should be interesting for French steam users.

http://www.pcgamer.com/valve-sued-by-french-consumer-association/

Moderators, hope I put this in right place, if not please move.

cameltosis · December 2015

Given how complicated the law is in any given country, combined with the internet making companies totally global, its inevitable that these law suits will pop up.

Athisar · December 2015

DMKano said:

cameltosis said:

Given how complicated the law is in any given country, combined with the internet making companies totally global, its inevitable that these law suits will pop up.

Its only complicated if the company has presence that is legally binding in another country.

Most online companies avoid this by having all authentication service present only in US for example therefore EU laws don't apply even if game servers are in EU.

Also if in game purchase transactions are back hauled to US - then an EU law won't apply because the customer is doing everything in US.

Lots of cool loopholes that many online business exploit

That is pretty broad and not exactly correct. Any company that offers a service in GBP for instance is considered to be targeting the UK, and is bound by UK trading and advertising law.

Loke666 · December 2015

I have to agree that they have a point here:

Steam's Subscriber Agreement explicitly forbids users to sell their games, despite the transfer of ownership of digital products/licenses being legal.Valve declines responsibility in the event that users' personal information is stolen.Valve claims ownership of the rights of any user-created content uploaded to Steam.It is impossible to get the money on your Steam Wallet back if your account is closed/deleted/banned.Valve applies Luxembourg's consumer law regardless of the user's country.

alkarionlog · December 2015

DMKano said:

cameltosis said:

Given how complicated the law is in any given country, combined with the internet making companies totally global, its inevitable that these law suits will pop up.

Its only complicated if the company has presence that is legally binding in another country.

Most online companies avoid this by having all authentication service present only in US for example therefore EU laws don't apply even if game servers are in EU.

Also if in game purchase transactions are back hauled to US - then an EU law won't apply because the customer is doing everything in US.

Lots of cool loopholes that many online business exploit

wrong, countrys put law saying if a bussines want to do bussines inside they sovereign they are obliged to follow that country laws, don't matter if they have a physical office or server in said country.

btw the lawsuite have valid points

FlyByKnight · December 2015

alkarionlog said:

DMKano said:

cameltosis said:

Given how complicated the law is in any given country, combined with the internet making companies totally global, its inevitable that these law suits will pop up.

Its only complicated if the company has presence that is legally binding in another country.

Most online companies avoid this by having all authentication service present only in US for example therefore EU laws don't apply even if game servers are in EU.

Also if in game purchase transactions are back hauled to US - then an EU law won't apply because the customer is doing everything in US.

Lots of cool loopholes that many online business exploit

wrong, countrys put law saying if a bussines want to do bussines inside they sovereign they are obliged to follow that country laws, don't matter if they have a physical office or server in said country.

btw the lawsuite have valid points

I'm not sure this is correct when it comes to offshore business. If you look at the terms of service of companies that operate in other countries it even tells you where disputes have to be mediated in the event there is one.

Reizla · December 2015

Loke666 said:

I have to agree that they have a point here:

Steam's Subscriber Agreement explicitly forbids users to sell their games, despite the transfer of ownership of digital products/licenses being legal.Valve declines responsibility in the event that users' personal information is stolen.Valve claims ownership of the rights of any user-created content uploaded to Steam.It is impossible to get the money on your Steam Wallet back if your account is closed/deleted/banned.Valve applies Luxembourg's consumer law regardless of the user's country.

Yeah, Valve states that, but since it's also selling within the EU, Valve should comply to EU law as well. And one of the EU laws states that games (either physical or digital) can be resold by the current owner of the game. This law also makes most 'license instead of ownership' agreement that almost every softwarehouse uses void as well...

Athisar · December 2015

FlyByKnight said:

alkarionlog said:

DMKano said:

cameltosis said:

Given how complicated the law is in any given country, combined with the internet making companies totally global, its inevitable that these law suits will pop up.

Its only complicated if the company has presence that is legally binding in another country.

Most online companies avoid this by having all authentication service present only in US for example therefore EU laws don't apply even if game servers are in EU.

Also if in game purchase transactions are back hauled to US - then an EU law won't apply because the customer is doing everything in US.

Lots of cool loopholes that many online business exploit

wrong, countrys put law saying if a bussines want to do bussines inside they sovereign they are obliged to follow that country laws, don't matter if they have a physical office or server in said country.

btw the lawsuite have valid points

I'm not sure this is correct when it comes to offshore business. If you look at the terms of service of companies that operate in other countries it even tells you where disputes have to be mediated in the event there is one.

Terms of service are essentially meaningless outside of a court, they can say pretty much whatever they like in them but only a court can uphold anything in them to make them binding. The problem is that most people (obviously) don't want to go to court, and so get fobbed off by terms of services that have no legal basis whatsoever. One of the most common is the blanket 'no refunds' policy of lots of companies, that are explicitly illegal in many cases in the EU.

Brenics · December 2015

I have to agree with @DMKano on this one, there will be loopholes value will be able to use.

scorpex-x · December 2015

DMKano said:

Valve should block all French users and post the phone and address of the party behind the lawsuit in a login failed window- the matter would be solved within 48 hours

Why are you anti consumer?

Nothing they are suing over is bad, it makes steam a better company for the users.

---

Steam's Subscriber Agreement explicitly forbids users to sell their games, despite the transfer of ownership of digital products/licenses being legal.
Valve declines responsibility in the event that users' personal information is stolen.
Valve claims ownership of the rights of any user-created content uploaded to Steam.
It is impossible to get the money on your Steam Wallet back if your account is closed/deleted/banned.
Valve applies Luxembourg's consumer law regardless of the user's country.

Hatefull · December 2015

Loke666 said:

I have to agree that they have a point here:

Steam's Subscriber Agreement explicitly forbids users to sell their games, despite the transfer of ownership of digital products/licenses being legal.Valve declines responsibility in the event that users' personal information is stolen.Valve claims ownership of the rights of any user-created content uploaded to Steam.It is impossible to get the money on your Steam Wallet back if your account is closed/deleted/banned.Valve applies Luxembourg's consumer law regardless of the user's country.

I remember reading that, it makes the most sense. I personally hate valve/steam/etc but that is just me.

jmcdermottuk · December 2015

If you don't like the terms don't use Steam, it's simple. I hardly ever buy anything on Steam because the prices are crap, unless they have a sale on. I also find it satisfying to have a box to hold when I buy something.

I also don't like their no refund policy so I tend to buy elsewhere.

Talonsin · December 2015

I think if some of you were a bit older and remembered what it was like to have to keep serial keys and CD/disks of all your games you would have a greater appreciation for steam. While it is not perfect, it gets better every year. They now have a reasonable refund policy and some of their sales are awesome.

Iselin · December 2015

Interesting comments... apparently it's not about right or wrong, it's about what Valve could do to get away with their policies more easily.

The bullet points look like something worth challenging to me. But that's just me I guess.

BeansnBread · December 2015

jmcdermottuk said:

If you don't like the terms don't use Steam, it's simple. I hardly ever buy anything on Steam because the prices are crap, unless they have a sale on. I also find it satisfying to have a box to hold when I buy something.

I also don't like their no refund policy so I tend to buy elsewhere.

The prices on Steam are often amazing and they also have an amazing refund policy. Full refund, no question asked if you've played under 2 hours or it's been under 2 weeks. The reasons you list, at least for me, are the best reasons to use Steam.

Baitness · December 2015

It seems a lot of people are missing that valve's agreement does directly conflict with french law, the most obvious instance of which being that valve does not allow you to sell or transfer your digital games, despite that being completely legal in France. That does not change by clicking "I Agree." Valve is trying to use the same terms and conditions for every country, but they are going to have to suck it up and consider that different countries mean different laws. If they want to have the same blanket terms for everyone, they are going to have to give their users every right granted by any country.

For those ragging on France or the French players that want this changed, you are being ridiculous. If Valve wants to sell in France, they have to abide by the French laws. If Valve ends up changing this for everyone then we all stand to benefit.

France may be on to something here, right now companies love digital copies because we are just purchasing a license to use the software (that they can revoke). It would be really nice to be able to have been able to give a friend a single player game once I had finished it. When I was a child my friends and I shared music, movies, and games because they were all physical. We trade them around and everyone would end up getting to see whatever it was they wanted. It has been years since I even considered doing anything like that.

Talonsin · December 2015

Personally, I dont understand why software is treated differently than other things. Why is it "leased" to the user and not sold? Why does a user not have any rights after buying software? Why are software companies allowed to change their terms of service or end user license's whenever it suits them? If my financial company changes its terms, they have to send a notice out to all users in writing.

alkarionlog · December 2015

Talonsin said:

I think if some of you were a bit older and remembered what it was like to have to keep serial keys and CD/disks of all your games you would have a greater appreciation for steam. While it is not perfect, it gets better every year. They now have a reasonable refund policy and some of their sales are awesome.

I still have games who use cd keys and need the cd to run it, you know what? I miss these, before I could play it any machine I own, without a problem or limit, now I need permission to play it, so i'm forced to hack it after some year to play again

Talonsin said:

Personally, I dont understand why software is treated differently than other things. Why is it "leased" to the user and not sold? Why does a user not have any rights after buying software? Why are software companies allowed to change their terms of service or end user license's whenever it suits them? If my financial company changes its terms, they have to send a notice out to all users in writing.

mostly because people think code are diferently from a hard product since it not tangible, and that way they can force people to do what they want, or think they can, just remember how many minutes it takes a game to become avaiable for anyone to piracy it after such game is launched

Grunty · December 2015

Talonsin said:

I think if some of you were a bit older and remembered what it was like to have to keep serial keys and CD/disks of all your games you would have a greater appreciation for steam. While it is not perfect, it gets better every year. They now have a reasonable refund policy and some of their sales are awesome.

I prefer my hard copies and product keys to be sitting on my shelf. Not in someone else's database that can disappear at any time they choose to erase it.

Steam is a for profit corporation. Some day Steam will either be sold off or go out of business. Steam's rules say that if I move those games sitting on my shelf into Steam's cloud then I give Steam the right to control or even remove my access to those games. No thanks.

Half of THQ's games can't be played any longer because their DRM control was tied to Microsoft's Games for Windows Live DRM service that no longer exists. What's going to happen to all your games when Steam evaporates?

Kyleran · December 2015

Grunty said:

Talonsin said:

I think if some of you were a bit older and remembered what it was like to have to keep serial keys and CD/disks of all your games you would have a greater appreciation for steam. While it is not perfect, it gets better every year. They now have a reasonable refund policy and some of their sales are awesome.

I prefer my hard copies and product keys to be sitting on my shelf. Not in someone else's database that can disappear at any time they choose to erase it.

Steam is a for profit corporation. Some day Steam will either be sold off or go out of business. Steam's rules say that if I move those games sitting on my shelf into Steam's cloud then I give Steam the right to control or even remove my access to those games. No thanks.

Half of THQ's games can't be played any longer because their DRM control was tied to Microsoft's Games for Windows Live DRM service that no longer exists. What's going to happen to all your games when Steam evaporates?

Play different games?

Vrika · December 2015

MisterZebub said:

scorpex-x said:

DMKano said:

Valve should block all French users and post the phone and address of the party behind the lawsuit in a login failed window- the matter would be solved within 48 hours

Why are you anti consumer?

Nothing they are suing over is bad, it makes steam a better company for the users.

---

Steam's Subscriber Agreement explicitly forbids users to sell their games, despite the transfer of ownership of digital products/licenses being legal.
Valve declines responsibility in the event that users' personal information is stolen.
Valve claims ownership of the rights of any user-created content uploaded to Steam.
It is impossible to get the money on your Steam Wallet back if your account is closed/deleted/banned.
Valve applies Luxembourg's consumer law regardless of the user's country.

And here we have what I feel is the heart of the issue. Valve like many multinational companies saves millions in tax revenue by incorporating in the tax haven of Luxembourg. Yet once again we have European courts attempting to demonize foreign business while ignoring the corruption in their own backyards.

So it's your opinion that France should attack Luxemburg and conquer them because their sovereign country does not follow French laws.

What other countries should they conquer while they're at it?

EDIT: While some of EU's legal means are limited as they can't override Luxemburg's laws, short of attacking the country they're actually doing quite a lot to Luxemburg:

-In 2015 VAT rules changed so that companies can't evade sales tax by having offices in Luxemburg any more: http://www.vatlive.com/eu-vat-rules/2015-digital-services-moss/2015-digital-services-changes/
-In 2015 EU agreed to share some data on tax deals made between governments and multinational corporations: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/07/business/eu-to-share-data-on-tax-deals-with-multinational-companies.html?_r=0
-In 2014 Luxemburg was pressured to drop its bank secrecy laws. Once the change happens that'll reduce tax evasion a lot: http://www.euractiv.com/sections/euro-finance/luxembourg-drops-bank-secrecy-rules-after-years-pressure-309175

fivoroth · December 2015

DMKano said:

cameltosis said:

Given how complicated the law is in any given country, combined with the internet making companies totally global, its inevitable that these law suits will pop up.

Its only complicated if the company has presence that is legally binding in another country.

Most online companies avoid this by having all authentication service present only in US for example therefore EU laws don't apply even if game servers are in EU.

Also if in game purchase transactions are back hauled to US - then an EU law won't apply because the customer is doing everything in US.

Lots of cool loopholes that many online business exploit

Yeah, no. IF you are selling games to EU customers, it doesn't matter where you sell them from, you need to comply with EU laws.

fivoroth · December 2015

BeansnBread said:

jmcdermottuk said:

If you don't like the terms don't use Steam, it's simple. I hardly ever buy anything on Steam because the prices are crap, unless they have a sale on. I also find it satisfying to have a box to hold when I buy something.

I also don't like their no refund policy so I tend to buy elsewhere.

The prices on Steam are often amazing and they also have an amazing refund policy. Full refund, no question asked if you've played under 2 hours or it's been under 2 weeks. The reasons you list, at least for me, are the best reasons to use Steam.

Actually the refund policy is a recent thing. Valve didn't use to allow refund until recently. I am not sure what made them change their stance. Maybe another lawsuite?

Prices on steam are not amazing. They are actually more expensive if we are looking at games that recently launched, especially AAA games.

Now if you buy games from over a year ago, then they go on 50-75% sale but that's like geting a game from the bargain bucket lol.

I am rom the UK but just looking at the euro stteam store, Fallout 4 is 60 euros. Same game can be found on amazon for 35 euros. So that's 25 euros more. And that's one example. IF you look at more recent AAA games you will see the same thing.

If you look at the UK store, Fallout 4 is £40 whereas it's £25. Hell I even got it much cheaper on my XBOX for £30, still £10 cheper than steam.

New street fighter 5 retails for £35-40 on PC/PS4. it's £45 on steam.

SO yeah steam is not cheaper.

Vrika · December 2015

fivoroth said:

BeansnBread said:

jmcdermottuk said:

If you don't like the terms don't use Steam, it's simple. I hardly ever buy anything on Steam because the prices are crap, unless they have a sale on. I also find it satisfying to have a box to hold when I buy something.

I also don't like their no refund policy so I tend to buy elsewhere.

The prices on Steam are often amazing and they also have an amazing refund policy. Full refund, no question asked if you've played under 2 hours or it's been under 2 weeks. The reasons you list, at least for me, are the best reasons to use Steam.

Actually the refund policy is a recent thing. Valve didn't use to allow refund until recently. I am not sure what made them change their stance. Maybe another lawsuite?

Australian Competition and Consumer Commission sued Valve over their refund policy shortly before Valve changed it.

http://www.valvetime.net/threads/valve-being-sued-by-accc-over-steam-refund-policy.245449/

reeereee · December 2015

MisterZebub said:

scorpex-x said:

DMKano said:

Valve should block all French users and post the phone and address of the party behind the lawsuit in a login failed window- the matter would be solved within 48 hours

Why are you anti consumer?

Nothing they are suing over is bad, it makes steam a better company for the users.

---

Steam's Subscriber Agreement explicitly forbids users to sell their games, despite the transfer of ownership of digital products/licenses being legal.
Valve declines responsibility in the event that users' personal information is stolen.
Valve claims ownership of the rights of any user-created content uploaded to Steam.
It is impossible to get the money on your Steam Wallet back if your account is closed/deleted/banned.
Valve applies Luxembourg's consumer law regardless of the user's country.

And here we have what I feel is the heart of the issue. Valve like many multinational companies saves millions in tax revenue by incorporating in the tax haven of Luxembourg. Yet once again we have European courts attempting to demonize foreign business while ignoring the corruption in their own backyards.

American companies using Europe for tax evasion suddenly find they also have to comply with EU consumer protection laws? Sounds more like Karma than demonization to me.

I remember listening to a BBC reporter interviewing a Greek official and telling him how great the Irish economy was and asking why the Greeks weren't cutting taxes to try and be more like the Irish and you can hear the Greek official stammering in disbelief.

Burntvet · December 2015

The other thing people seem to not realize, is that a EULA or TOS only applies if the agreement itself is legally valid in the individual location. Even if someone agrees to it.

Any contract that violates any national consumer or other law, is not enforceable, just like any other illegal contract.

So, I have to agree, this is in no way bad for customers of Steam, I hope they win and that there are similar suits in the US.

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Valve sued once again.

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