Yes yes we get. Word of dev is the gospel. It really surprises me how much people rely upon devs words even to this day.
Well... They are the ones coding the *bliiiiiiiiiip* thing so i would say that they are in fact the authority on the matter. What you are trying to do is argue if they should have sold early access at all... And that ofc is open to debate as we do not know what the money form the early access goes towards.
But the matter of the fact is.... The game is early access... clearly marked what state of development it is in and what you as a customer will suffer through.
It is also noted that you can wait until the developers feel the game is ready for "gold" and then play it for free.
You are not being tricked in to anything... nor is the any shadey dealings going on.
You (as in the person buying the game.. not you personally) are well aware that you are getting a buggy, broken mess of a proto-game.
That does in my mind justify giving the developers the right to tell you when the game is ready... .. . Especially as they did not try to fool you in to thinking that the game was done... Ulike.. say... Ubisoft and EA...
Originally posted by rodarin
Lots of semantics arguments in this game.
They DO in fact SELL guns. If you buy an air drop and it has a gun in it that gun cost someone real money. it did not spawn in the game it was bought and paid for.
You do know that it s both easier, safer and faster to get a gun form regular loot container then a airdrop right now... Right...
Yes yes we get. Word of dev is the gospel. It really surprises me how much people rely upon devs words even to this day.
Well... They are the ones coding the *bliiiiiiiiiip* thing so i would say that they are in fact the authority on the matter. What you are trying to do is argue if they should have sold early access at all... And that ofc is open to debate as we do not know what the money form the early access goes towards.
But the matter of the fact is.... The game is early access... clearly marked what state of development it is in and what you as a customer will suffer through.
It is also noted that you can wait until the developers feel the game is ready for "gold" and then play it for free.
You are not being tricked in to anything... nor is the any shadey dealings going on.
You (as in the person buying the game.. not you personally) are well aware that you are getting a buggy, broken mess of a proto-game.
That does in my mind justify giving the developers the right to tell you when the game is ready... .. . Especially as they did not try to fool you in to thinking that the game was done... Ulike.. say... Ubisoft and EA...
Originally posted by rodarin
Lots of semantics arguments in this game.
They DO in fact SELL guns. If you buy an air drop and it has a gun in it that gun cost someone real money. it did not spawn in the game it was bought and paid for.
You do know that it s both easier, safer and faster to get a gun form regular loot container then a airdrop right now... Right...
I am trying to argue that if sun is shining above your head do you need someone to tell you it is a day time?
SOE is authority i understand that. They are coding the game i know that too. However, now days alpha and beta tags are nothing more than semantics. Once you start charging people for full game and fully functional cash shop... don't get panties in a bunch if people complain and criticise the game.
Moreover, i really dislike when whole responsibility is put on shoulder of players and devs get a free pass. It is the same as how people defend casinos.
"Hey buddy all you had to do was never enter casino and gamble your money duh!!" Never mind the fact that casinos are built to exploit the weakness of public with addiction.
Originally posted by mrneurosishining above your head do you need someone to tell you it is a day time?
SOE is authority i understand that. They are coding the game i know that too. However, now days alpha and beta tags are nothing more than semantics. Once you start charging people for full game and fully functional cash shop... don't get panties in a bunch if people complain and criticise the game.
Ah... But that is the key is it not....
They are neither charging for a full game not is the cash shop close to being fully functional... In fact it is barley more functional then the game... Yes you can buy stuff in it... But the selection of goods as.. well lacking..
Also they are charging you for access to a early build of the game... Not a full game... In fact the full game will be free... So by that logic you are paying a fee to offset the costs of servers and extra QA needed to test and verify the bugs found by said players....
And i have no problem with people being critical of the game... But i do feel a slight annoyance when people do it from a standpoint that is up the wall... Well.. you know... Like you are doing now....
As i said... We can argue if they should have sold early access to a F2P game... I have no problem with that... And we can argue if perhaps the airdrops should have been toned down before said EA opened....
But you can not argue that the game was sold as a early access game and thus is in-complete.
Originally posted by lugal When you charge for access, have a full working cash shop, you are no longer playing a alpha/beta. SOE and other devs are lying to people by using those terms.
Lying?
People willingly buying a clrearly marked Alpha game in early access is lying?
SoE have said countless times that players expecting anything other than a buggy alpha product with many missing or broken features should NOT buy this.
Yes! Thank you! It seems like people just don't read anything when hitting that buy button. I think they just hear "I can play it" and hit buy then rage when it doesn't work well.
SOE: "H1Z1 in development!"
Player: "Oooo I want it now! When can I play it?!"
SOE: "We are selling early access to alpha on steam. Understand this is a very early build with lots of bugs and unstable performance etc."
Player: "Blah blah blah, what's an alpha?! Who cares? Where's the buy button? So much text on this Steam page, like I have time to read?! BUY BUY BUY!!!"
.....
.....
Player: "OMG!!! Why this game no work good!!!?? It's like they didn't even bother finishing it!!!!"
Is the game available to the general public? -- yes
Are they charging money for it? -- yes
Then it has released.
The only question becomes what state did it release in? They can call it whatever they want to, but the fact is the game has released. Like a store, the doors are open and they are charging money for what is inside. The store is open.
Game companies today feel like they can release an unfinished game, and they are obviously right. By labeling it "early access" or "alpha/beta" as a disclaimer, these game companies have no problem releasing a buggy incomplete game. And since it is buyer beware, if you buy a game labeled as buggy and incomplete when it releases, the onus is on you.
Originally posted by lugal When you charge for access, have a full working cash shop, you are no longer playing a alpha/beta. SOE and other devs are lying to people by using those terms.
Exactly.
If the cash shop is working, the rest of the game should be working too.
The fact that they prioritize the shop over everything else speaks volumes about their intentions.
Originally posted by mrneurosishining above your head do you need someone to tell you it is a day time?
SOE is authority i understand that. They are coding the game i know that too. However, now days alpha and beta tags are nothing more than semantics. Once you start charging people for full game and fully functional cash shop... don't get panties in a bunch if people complain and criticise the game.
Ah... But that is the key is it not....
They are neither charging for a full game not is the cash shop close to being fully functional... In fact it is barley more functional then the game... Yes you can buy stuff in it... But the selection of goods as.. well lacking..
Also they are charging you for access to a early build of the game... Not a full game... In fact the full game will be free... So by that logic you are paying a fee to offset the costs of servers and extra QA needed to test and verify the bugs found by said players....
And i have no problem with people being critical of the game... But i do feel a slight annoyance when people do it from a standpoint that is up the wall... Well.. you know... Like you are doing now....
As i said... We can argue if they should have sold early access to a F2P game... I have no problem with that... And we can argue if perhaps the airdrops should have been toned down before said EA opened....
But you can not argue that the game was sold as a early access game and thus is in-complete.
Up the wall? if i feel no need to defend SOE and the whole 'air drop' fiasco doesn't mean i am making a standpoint from up the wall.
The way they are running some of the things in game got nothing to do with alpha or beta state of the game. fact is that once people invest money into something or buy a product they feel entitled as a customer. It is very easy to avoid a situation like this..'Don't sell your alphas'.
But that would be too damn logical thing to do in todays age where money comes first in everything.
So, you are aware of it and yet you dismiss it as if it isn't relevant?
What an odd perspective, at least to me. Why would anyone get involved in an alpha state game and then bitch about how it isn't perfect?
C'mon...
Yes and alpha with upfront full cost and fully functional cash shop.
As long as they know it is alpha then the player is the moron.
But why make morons of your player base? What the hell is that?
LMAO !
Sigh, there is no hope...
Next we'll have people launching class-action lawsuits because "SOE knowingly and intentionally allowed the players to make fools of themselves" !
It's not a litigious or blame game thing, man. That's belittling the point. This "haha told you so", disclaimer stuff doesn't sit well with me as an onlooker, past participant in previous programs and interested party in their other prospective products.
Is the game available to the general public? -- yes
Are they charging money for it? -- yes
Then it has released.
Game companies today feel like they can release an unfinished game, and they are obviously right. By labeling it "early access" or "alpha/beta" as a disclaimer, these game companies have no problem releasing a buggy incomplete game. And since it is buyer beware, if you buy a game labeled as buggy and incomplete when it releases, the onus is on you.
So different than it used to be.
Yes, I think nowadays "beta" is only used as a one-word, easy-to-grasp disclaimer so that companies can come back to the consumers saying: "Well, it's only beta. See it's there on the top of the page. So that's why this is not working!". How many years had Gmail been in beta for in its time? Nearly 3 years. What a joke.
It's just a cop out: companies can blame it on the consumer wherever something goes wrong in the already fully functional and nearly releasable service.
From a "legal" and "logical" standpoint - they are in the right, but we all feel and know that it is "morally" wrong or at least disingenuous. It's not all happening by chance.
On the other hand, as someone pointed out, for "first world products" expectations are high nowadays. People expect the slickness of Apple design, the responsiveness of WoW, etc. But these brands took years to get their product to this level
(Sidetracking a bit, I was reading a really interesting article about the level of support expected by the spoilt WoW consumers in Diablo 3. Of course, Diablo 1&2 never had to release that many patches with new features, create new items every 6 months, etc., but for Diablo 3 and from the WoW player base, expectations are high but you cannot really get the same amount of updates as you get in MMORPGs traditionally, especially without cash shops... But I digress.)
So instead of having to deal with bad PR because the product isn't up to our very high standards, divide and conquer the player base by having them argue on semantics to know whether or not we can point out the faults of the product.
Think about it for a minute though, if *really* businesses wanted to avoid that backlash, they would release the game as a closed beta. It's completely fair to have people bashing the game and complaining OPENLY during an OPEN beta.
So the blame ultimately must be put on the company for allowing this to happen, not the consumer. You don't put a gun in the hands of a monkey and complain that the monkey shot you.
Originally posted by mrneurosishining above your head do you need someone to tell you it is a day time?
SOE is authority i understand that. They are coding the game i know that too. However, now days alpha and beta tags are nothing more than semantics. Once you start charging people for full game and fully functional cash shop... don't get panties in a bunch if people complain and criticise the game.
Ah... But that is the key is it not....
They are neither charging for a full game not is the cash shop close to being fully functional... In fact it is barley more functional then the game... Yes you can buy stuff in it... But the selection of goods as.. well lacking..
Also they are charging you for access to a early build of the game... Not a full game... In fact the full game will be free... So by that logic you are paying a fee to offset the costs of servers and extra QA needed to test and verify the bugs found by said players....
And i have no problem with people being critical of the game... But i do feel a slight annoyance when people do it from a standpoint that is up the wall... Well.. you know... Like you are doing now....
As i said... We can argue if they should have sold early access to a F2P game... I have no problem with that... And we can argue if perhaps the airdrops should have been toned down before said EA opened....
But you can not argue that the game was sold as a early access game and thus is in-complete.
Up the wall? if i feel no need to defend SOE and the whole 'air drop' fiasco doesn't mean i am making a standpoint from up the wall.
The way they are running some of the things in game got nothing to do with alpha or beta state of the game. fact is that once people invest money into something or buy a product they feel entitled as a customer. It is very easy to avoid a situation like this..'Don't sell your alphas'.
But that would be too damn logical thing to do in todays age where money comes first in everything.
Well you was the one to claimed it was charging for a full game... Not me.. So yes.. you are up the wall... like it or not.
As for not selling alpha... I agree the more correct erm is beta... the game is feature enabled enough to warrant that label... But hey i am not the with the power to lable things.. so i go by what the developers said.. again.. not my game... I can call the stages of my game what i want and so can they...
But "not selling alpha" is well... Not very valid... A: they need the extra hands and feet to pound the game... After all Ubisoft have shown what happens when you don´t and back when i started doing beta testeing.. you paid too... Ok most of that cost was SnH for physical disks but it still sort of apply here...
And to be fair i think that SOE don´t give a *bleeep* what you or i think in the long run. But that is not going to stop me from trying to introduce some semblance of sanity in to especially this affair... Because it blew up and out of proportion so fast that not even the anchorman meme is good enough,
And if we are speaking of logical... you ask SOE to be logical... Me... I turn to the howling mob and ask the same thing... Even if i know the futility of it... Because the logical response to the first day in H1Z1 would have been a well put together post on the subject and then doing something else until the overstressed servers stopped melting....
Let´s be polite and say that above scenario did not take place.... And since i do like to keep my account i am not going to give my un-filtered view o how much of the people who posted on that day behaved. Not everybody.. there was others who like me took a more balanced view of it on both sides... But we where a minority... a small minority.
So why should different rules apply to customer and developer...?
Restaurants -- "I paid for the buffet, full price, but all I see is mashed potatoes." -- "Sorry Sir, see on your receipt, it says "beta", enjoy your spuds."
Movies -- "I paid full price for this movie ticket, but the movie stopped after 10 minutes." -- "Sorry Sir, it clearly says "beta" on your ticket."
Books -- "I ordered this book from Amazon, but all I got was a book cover." -- Amazon says : "Sorry, it says beta on our website. We'll send the rest if the author ever finishes it."
Cars -- "I prepaid for a Lexus, WTF is this??" -- "Sorry Sir, little red wagons are all we have. It says beta right on this sticker. If we ever do get the Lexus, we'll call you. Keep making your payments."
Dentists -- "I paid full price for a root canal, now I just have a hole in my tooth!" -- "Sorry Sir, this was a beta procedure, see this fine print? We did kill the root, but haven't figured out how to fill the hole back up yet."
The problem is that the game is available to the public, at full price. The public has a right to expect a full product. Just slapping a "beta" decal on it doesn't fly with most consumers. Since companies don't seem to care about releasing incomplete and buggy products anymore, it is up to us to know that "beta, early access, and alpha" all mean the game is likely crap, and certainly isn't claimed to be a real product.
This whole topic is ridiculous. SOE deserves alot of the hate they get but this just comes off as misinformed ignorant consumer banter. This topic does nothing but prove you have no idea what you are talking about.
It's an alpha and your complaints are very unrealistic, you are complaining about things that make zero sense and will get fixed, so far they are doing a good job and honestly fixing and making stuff "work" isn't an issue SOE has, you may be confusing them with Trion.
Now if we are going to complain about how SOE makes so many of their games easy mode and screws their loyal fanbase on a regular basis in favor of ignorant casuals that would be a better and more relevant topic.
Originally posted by lugal When you charge for access, have a full working cash shop, you are no longer playing a alpha/beta. SOE and other devs are lying to people by using those terms.
This is ridiculous. Paying for something doesn't magically change reality. The game is in a development phase, whatever you want to call it, where things may change dramatically at any time. You knew this going in and if you paid for it then that is on you. People need to grow up and take responsibility for their actions. If they can't handle it, then too bad for them. No sympathy here.
I will turn it around though:
Companies need to take responsibility for their actions. They created a paid beta program with a game in such a state (whatever the state of the game).
If they can't handle the complaints, then too bad for them. No sympathy here.
What the f*** did they think would happen, anyway? That people would send flowers and love letters?
And don't forget this is the order in which things happened. Companies MADE of their own accord the paid beta program, so they need to deal with it now.
The whole "paid Alpha" thing was a genius idea crafted by some attorney to give developers more ceiling to launch pieces of shit to the general public and not be legally accountable for it... EVER.
They get to make money and NEVER be responsible for ANYTHING. Who wouldn't take that deal?
The public doesn't have the discipline to do anything about and it you speak out you're accused of having a sense of entitlement. It's the perfect racket.
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Originally posted by lugal When you charge for access, have a full working cash shop, you are no longer playing a alpha/beta. SOE and other devs are lying to people by using those terms.
This is ridiculous. Paying for something doesn't magically change reality. The game is in a development phase, whatever you want to call it, where things may change dramatically at any time. You knew this going in and if you paid for it then that is on you. People need to grow up and take responsibility for their actions. If they can't handle it, then too bad for them. No sympathy here.
I will turn it around though:
Companies need to take responsibility for their actions. They created a paid beta program with a game in such a state (whatever the state of the game).
If they can't handle the complaints, then too bad for them. No sympathy here.
What the f*** did they think would happen, anyway? That people would send flowers and love letters?
And don't forget this is the order in which things happened. Companies MADE of their own accord the paid beta program, so they need to deal with it now.
They deal with it by updating the games build as well as adding to the features present. That's what they are responsible for, if they just threw these games out in this state and left them that way ( while asking for money) you might have a leg to stand on, without that happening though, not so much.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by lugal When you charge for access, have a full working cash shop, you are no longer playing a alpha/beta. SOE and other devs are lying to people by using those terms.
I think I fall into this camp. They charge for the game, there is a functioning cash shop, I agree the consumer has some right to an expectation of the product functioning on some level, regardless of it being Alpha/Beta/EarlyAccess/whatever.
Too many products are in a perpetual state of "Beta" and use it as a crutch. I think I'm falling out of favor with the concept.
Originally posted by FlyByKnight The whole "paid Alpha" thing was a genius idea crafted by some attorney to give developers more ceiling to launch pieces of shit to the general public and not be legally accountable for it... EVER. They get to make money and NEVER be responsible for ANYTHING. Who wouldn't take that deal? The public doesn't have the discipline to do anything about and it you speak out you're accused of having a sense of entitlement. It's the perfect racket.
This is the best summary I've ever seen of "early access"
Originally posted by olepi If other businesses start using the "beta" flag:
Another ridiculous post. This is what you people sound like to adults:
The funny part - both of you are making the same point, just coming at it from different directions. And it's a very valid point, I agree with it entirely.
“We will NOT be selling guns, ammo, food, water... i.e. That's kind of the whole game and it would suck in our opinion if we did that.”
I guess some people are of the opinion that random lock boxes dropped from the air that anyone can loot purchased for real money are in fact complete BS regardless of the Pay2Win or not semantics.
Ok... Challenge for you... Make a video of you logging in to H1Z1 and buying guns and ammo with real money...
What they sell is nothing different from a dungeon key... A competetive dungeon to boot... Is it a shitty thing to do yes but when they talked about not selling guns and ammo (apart form that post now almost a year old that have been over ruled twice at least) they where talking about your personal loot as in finding a nice hidey-hole and flexing your credit-card until you where so knee deep in guns and ammo that Charlton Heston would have had a *bliiiiip* tall enough to fly a flag from... Heck (take it for what it is worth) but even the dev who streamed have come forth and said he did not even think about airdrops when he made his comment... Now you can call him a lying sod all you want... But that sword cuts both ways.
So to sum it up....
- You still can not outright buy guns and ammo in H1Z1
- The game is in alpha/beta no matter how much you paid for it until the devs say it is not.
- Above is ok as you where warned before getting that so was the case.
- A game does not magically have a retail release just because you say so.
- SOE´s reaction to this so far have been miles above the old SOE. Trust me.. i was there.
Originally posted by ReaperUk Anyone who bought into this game will have been warned: "Early Access Game Get instant access and start playing; get involved with this game as it develops.Note: This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development."It seems someone missed it.
That's EXACTLY what I was gonna say! LOL. Things are gonna change, deal with it!
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
A 2+ week old video of the initial alpha implementation for a system that was modified within the following day to no longer function as shown in that video.
OP, slow your roll. It's going to be adjusted this way and that a hundred more times before it hits gold. Holy crap, breathe. It's just a game.....in alpha....that you willingly paid for....knowing it was alpha.
Originally posted by Tinybina Lets start with number 1, they were very vague about "Loot spawn adjustments" but it seems that their version of "Loot spawn adjustments" was making it so that hardly any GUNS spawn in game....
What's wrong with this? You didnt knew that this was the plan? They told us that guns were going to be rare unlike every other survival zombie way before the game hit EA on steam.. They told us that the majority of the time, you'll be stuck with melee weapons.
A 2+ week old video of the initial alpha implementation for a system that was modified within the following day to no longer function as shown in that video.
Nice evidence there, slick. Well played.
Shows the state SOE let people buy these things in and get guns pretty clearly doesn't it.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Comments
Well... They are the ones coding the *bliiiiiiiiiip* thing so i would say that they are in fact the authority on the matter. What you are trying to do is argue if they should have sold early access at all... And that ofc is open to debate as we do not know what the money form the early access goes towards.
But the matter of the fact is.... The game is early access... clearly marked what state of development it is in and what you as a customer will suffer through.
It is also noted that you can wait until the developers feel the game is ready for "gold" and then play it for free.
You are not being tricked in to anything... nor is the any shadey dealings going on.
You (as in the person buying the game.. not you personally) are well aware that you are getting a buggy, broken mess of a proto-game.
That does in my mind justify giving the developers the right to tell you when the game is ready... .. . Especially as they did not try to fool you in to thinking that the game was done... Ulike.. say... Ubisoft and EA...
You do know that it s both easier, safer and faster to get a gun form regular loot container then a airdrop right now... Right...
This have been a good conversation
I am trying to argue that if sun is shining above your head do you need someone to tell you it is a day time?
SOE is authority i understand that. They are coding the game i know that too. However, now days alpha and beta tags are nothing more than semantics. Once you start charging people for full game and fully functional cash shop... don't get panties in a bunch if people complain and criticise the game.
Moreover, i really dislike when whole responsibility is put on shoulder of players and devs get a free pass. It is the same as how people defend casinos.
"Hey buddy all you had to do was never enter casino and gamble your money duh!!" Never mind the fact that casinos are built to exploit the weakness of public with addiction.
Ah... But that is the key is it not....
They are neither charging for a full game not is the cash shop close to being fully functional... In fact it is barley more functional then the game... Yes you can buy stuff in it... But the selection of goods as.. well lacking..
Also they are charging you for access to a early build of the game... Not a full game... In fact the full game will be free... So by that logic you are paying a fee to offset the costs of servers and extra QA needed to test and verify the bugs found by said players....
And i have no problem with people being critical of the game... But i do feel a slight annoyance when people do it from a standpoint that is up the wall... Well.. you know... Like you are doing now....
As i said... We can argue if they should have sold early access to a F2P game... I have no problem with that... And we can argue if perhaps the airdrops should have been toned down before said EA opened....
But you can not argue that the game was sold as a early access game and thus is in-complete.
This have been a good conversation
Yes! Thank you! It seems like people just don't read anything when hitting that buy button. I think they just hear "I can play it" and hit buy then rage when it doesn't work well.
SOE: "H1Z1 in development!"
Player: "Oooo I want it now! When can I play it?!"
SOE: "We are selling early access to alpha on steam. Understand this is a very early build with lots of bugs and unstable performance etc."
Player: "Blah blah blah, what's an alpha?! Who cares? Where's the buy button? So much text on this Steam page, like I have time to read?! BUY BUY BUY!!!"
.....
.....
Player: "OMG!!! Why this game no work good!!!?? It's like they didn't even bother finishing it!!!!"
Is the game available to the general public? -- yes
Are they charging money for it? -- yes
Then it has released.
The only question becomes what state did it release in? They can call it whatever they want to, but the fact is the game has released. Like a store, the doors are open and they are charging money for what is inside. The store is open.
Game companies today feel like they can release an unfinished game, and they are obviously right. By labeling it "early access" or "alpha/beta" as a disclaimer, these game companies have no problem releasing a buggy incomplete game. And since it is buyer beware, if you buy a game labeled as buggy and incomplete when it releases, the onus is on you.
So different than it used to be.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
Exactly.
If the cash shop is working, the rest of the game should be working too.
The fact that they prioritize the shop over everything else speaks volumes about their intentions.
It is also a very bad omen for the future of EQN.
Up the wall? if i feel no need to defend SOE and the whole 'air drop' fiasco doesn't mean i am making a standpoint from up the wall.
The way they are running some of the things in game got nothing to do with alpha or beta state of the game. fact is that once people invest money into something or buy a product they feel entitled as a customer. It is very easy to avoid a situation like this..'Don't sell your alphas'.
But that would be too damn logical thing to do in todays age where money comes first in everything.
It's not a litigious or blame game thing, man. That's belittling the point. This "haha told you so", disclaimer stuff doesn't sit well with me as an onlooker, past participant in previous programs and interested party in their other prospective products.
Yes, I think nowadays "beta" is only used as a one-word, easy-to-grasp disclaimer so that companies can come back to the consumers saying: "Well, it's only beta. See it's there on the top of the page. So that's why this is not working!". How many years had Gmail been in beta for in its time? Nearly 3 years. What a joke.
It's just a cop out: companies can blame it on the consumer wherever something goes wrong in the already fully functional and nearly releasable service.
From a "legal" and "logical" standpoint - they are in the right, but we all feel and know that it is "morally" wrong or at least disingenuous. It's not all happening by chance.
On the other hand, as someone pointed out, for "first world products" expectations are high nowadays. People expect the slickness of Apple design, the responsiveness of WoW, etc. But these brands took years to get their product to this level
(Sidetracking a bit, I was reading a really interesting article about the level of support expected by the spoilt WoW consumers in Diablo 3. Of course, Diablo 1&2 never had to release that many patches with new features, create new items every 6 months, etc., but for Diablo 3 and from the WoW player base, expectations are high but you cannot really get the same amount of updates as you get in MMORPGs traditionally, especially without cash shops... But I digress.)
So instead of having to deal with bad PR because the product isn't up to our very high standards, divide and conquer the player base by having them argue on semantics to know whether or not we can point out the faults of the product.
Think about it for a minute though, if *really* businesses wanted to avoid that backlash, they would release the game as a closed beta. It's completely fair to have people bashing the game and complaining OPENLY during an OPEN beta.
So the blame ultimately must be put on the company for allowing this to happen, not the consumer. You don't put a gun in the hands of a monkey and complain that the monkey shot you.
Well you was the one to claimed it was charging for a full game... Not me.. So yes.. you are up the wall... like it or not.
As for not selling alpha... I agree the more correct erm is beta... the game is feature enabled enough to warrant that label... But hey i am not the with the power to lable things.. so i go by what the developers said.. again.. not my game... I can call the stages of my game what i want and so can they...
But "not selling alpha" is well... Not very valid... A: they need the extra hands and feet to pound the game... After all Ubisoft have shown what happens when you don´t and back when i started doing beta testeing.. you paid too... Ok most of that cost was SnH for physical disks but it still sort of apply here...
And to be fair i think that SOE don´t give a *bleeep* what you or i think in the long run. But that is not going to stop me from trying to introduce some semblance of sanity in to especially this affair... Because it blew up and out of proportion so fast that not even the anchorman meme is good enough,
And if we are speaking of logical... you ask SOE to be logical... Me... I turn to the howling mob and ask the same thing... Even if i know the futility of it... Because the logical response to the first day in H1Z1 would have been a well put together post on the subject and then doing something else until the overstressed servers stopped melting....
Let´s be polite and say that above scenario did not take place.... And since i do like to keep my account i am not going to give my un-filtered view o how much of the people who posted on that day behaved. Not everybody.. there was others who like me took a more balanced view of it on both sides... But we where a minority... a small minority.
So why should different rules apply to customer and developer...?
This have been a good conversation
If other businesses start using the "beta" flag:
Restaurants -- "I paid for the buffet, full price, but all I see is mashed potatoes." -- "Sorry Sir, see on your receipt, it says "beta", enjoy your spuds."
Movies -- "I paid full price for this movie ticket, but the movie stopped after 10 minutes." -- "Sorry Sir, it clearly says "beta" on your ticket."
Books -- "I ordered this book from Amazon, but all I got was a book cover." -- Amazon says : "Sorry, it says beta on our website. We'll send the rest if the author ever finishes it."
Cars -- "I prepaid for a Lexus, WTF is this??" -- "Sorry Sir, little red wagons are all we have. It says beta right on this sticker. If we ever do get the Lexus, we'll call you. Keep making your payments."
Dentists -- "I paid full price for a root canal, now I just have a hole in my tooth!" -- "Sorry Sir, this was a beta procedure, see this fine print? We did kill the root, but haven't figured out how to fill the hole back up yet."
The problem is that the game is available to the public, at full price. The public has a right to expect a full product. Just slapping a "beta" decal on it doesn't fly with most consumers. Since companies don't seem to care about releasing incomplete and buggy products anymore, it is up to us to know that "beta, early access, and alpha" all mean the game is likely crap, and certainly isn't claimed to be a real product.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
This whole topic is ridiculous. SOE deserves alot of the hate they get but this just comes off as misinformed ignorant consumer banter. This topic does nothing but prove you have no idea what you are talking about.
It's an alpha and your complaints are very unrealistic, you are complaining about things that make zero sense and will get fixed, so far they are doing a good job and honestly fixing and making stuff "work" isn't an issue SOE has, you may be confusing them with Trion.
Now if we are going to complain about how SOE makes so many of their games easy mode and screws their loyal fanbase on a regular basis in favor of ignorant casuals that would be a better and more relevant topic.
I will turn it around though:
Companies need to take responsibility for their actions. They created a paid beta program with a game in such a state (whatever the state of the game).
If they can't handle the complaints, then too bad for them. No sympathy here.
What the f*** did they think would happen, anyway? That people would send flowers and love letters?
And don't forget this is the order in which things happened. Companies MADE of their own accord the paid beta program, so they need to deal with it now.
The whole "paid Alpha" thing was a genius idea crafted by some attorney to give developers more ceiling to launch pieces of shit to the general public and not be legally accountable for it... EVER.
They get to make money and NEVER be responsible for ANYTHING. Who wouldn't take that deal?
The public doesn't have the discipline to do anything about and it you speak out you're accused of having a sense of entitlement. It's the perfect racket.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
They deal with it by updating the games build as well as adding to the features present. That's what they are responsible for, if they just threw these games out in this state and left them that way ( while asking for money) you might have a leg to stand on, without that happening though, not so much.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think I fall into this camp. They charge for the game, there is a functioning cash shop, I agree the consumer has some right to an expectation of the product functioning on some level, regardless of it being Alpha/Beta/EarlyAccess/whatever.
Too many products are in a perpetual state of "Beta" and use it as a crutch. I think I'm falling out of favor with the concept.
This is the best summary I've ever seen of "early access"
The funny part - both of you are making the same point, just coming at it from different directions. And it's a very valid point, I agree with it entirely.
I can just youtube a video of it.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/That's EXACTLY what I was gonna say! LOL. Things are gonna change, deal with it!
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
A 2+ week old video of the initial alpha implementation for a system that was modified within the following day to no longer function as shown in that video.
Nice evidence there, slick. Well played.
Joined - July 2004
What's wrong with this? You didnt knew that this was the plan? They told us that guns were going to be rare unlike every other survival zombie way before the game hit EA on steam.. They told us that the majority of the time, you'll be stuck with melee weapons.
Shows the state SOE let people buy these things in and get guns pretty clearly doesn't it.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/