as long as the PvP in that area is fair im OK with it. If i am doing PvE and a max level ganker starts camping and one shooting everyone to stop them from progressing then i wont bother with that content, thats not real pvp. So i think that would involve level downscaling to that PvE area for PvP purposes. Stat adjustment should be considered too. Otherwise, just dont mix pvp with pve at all.
I never played DAoC, so can you explained how Darkness Falls worked, and why it was successful where most here seem to say that model isnt interesting?
A few posts above yours I explained it in general terms. To expoud:
Once DF changed hands, it did not automatically zone out players of other realms who were currently playing or were logged out in the zone. It simply changed the entrance permissions. So, high-level PvP players could log out in DF, and if it changed hands, could log those players in to defend their wing while other players either cotinued to farm or evacuated the dungeon. They could also stealth up the opposing faction's wing and gank lower level players who had just entered the dungeon through their newly opened access. Players of realms who did not have access respawned outside the dungeon if killed inside.
It made for a unique and temporary PvP session that mixed with dangerous PvE mobs (in the lower levels of the dungeon). However, eventually and inevitably, the dungeon would be controlled by the realm who owned its entrance at the time. Then it became a boon for its PvE rewards.
Keeps generally weren't simple things to take (at least, not when there were a number of defenders), so the dungeon could stay with a realm for a while. However, when populations weren't imbalanced, any realm could call out its extra players (PvEers who were willing to PvP for the access to DF) to take the keeps needed. In a way, DF itself was a population balancer: the winning realm generally had less folks in the frontiers due to DF access (folks liked clearing it out of enemy players and farmed there with alts to grind/gather resources), which gave the other two realms a slight advantage when attempting to take back keeps they had lost. It was quite beautiful, really.
EDIT - It's important to note that at no time were players forced to expose themselves to any sort of gameplay they didn't want to engage in. Once the dungeon changed hands, you could log your character out and leave him parked awaitig access to shift back to your realm, or leave the dungeon before the hordes came in to wipe you. You never had to step foot into the frontiers to enjoy the benefits of the dungeon, so long as your realm could capture the keeps required for its access. And, it wasn't the end-all-be-all of endgame content (at least not after Shrouded Isles), so max level PvEers had other things they could do if DF was closed to them. However, it did provide some unique drops and resources for crafting that made pushing for access worthwhile, and many primarily PvE players participated in PvE to help gain their realm access.
OP, that's the only instance I can think of where PvE is gated by PvP. And it actually worked in WoW. Mostly I think because it was a matter of quick, one-boss fights that dropped good loot. Easy to pug, quick in and out. And maybe you stayed to PvP afterwards.
But generally, I think it's a pretty bad idea. Props to Blizz for making it work.
It "works" in the extent that players will play it.
However, many (including me, and everyone in my guild) prefers that boss is just available.
Originally posted by MadFrenchie I enjoyed DF just like every other vanilla/Shrouded Isles DAoC player that I know, but it was a stroke of genius that was probably unintentionally balanced.
Darkness falls had separate wings that fed in from each realm's land, got progressively more dangerous (ranging from mid-level mobs up to elite mobs only taken down by groups), and was opened to PvE players OUTSIDE the PvP zones whenever that realm owned a majority of frontier (PvP) keeps. PvE players never HAD to PvP, with Shrouded Isles there were other PvE areas always available that provided competitive rewards, and would always have the chance to enter DF (at least on my server, all 3 realms experienced its ownership on a fairly common basis). However, if players of a realm really wanted time in that dungeon, they could help out the realm in the frontier. An awesome system that created connections between PvPers and PvEers without forcing anyone to do anything they didn't want to do. All Mythic had to do was ensure population balances to help keep the dungeon from being perma-owned by a certain realm(s).
Any other instance of PvE content gated behind PvP content should model it after the DF system. They could create their own unique system that struck the balance, but track records show it might be best to just emulate an old system that worked.
Good summary. And with that said.. Darkness Falls was not really gated behind PvP content.. as the poster above already said somehow. As a pve player you never had to pvp.. however it was tied to PvP, as some older PvP Dungeons(UO, Dungeons where PvP is allowed) are also tied to PvP.
In my mind gated content, especially with 2 different gameplay parts, is never a good idea. It is not a good idea to gate pvp content behind pve content, nor would it be a good idea to gate pve content behind pvp content.. or to gate RAid content behind crafting content. Because not everyone will like everything, and those will then locked out of their favored content.
To tie something together, or to mix content is a different thing and may lay ties between different player types.. therefor it was always a good idea to make pvpers dependable on crafters, or pveers dependable on pvpers(darkness falls), or similar stuff.. but just don't force players to play content they don't like to be able to play content they actually like.
However.. if it just optional and not mandatory it may be ok.. however i don't see a lot of advantage for gated content in general.. but that's my humble opinion.
I don't mind PvE content gated behind PvP, as long as there is other PvE content available of the same level that is not gated behind PvP and provides similar rewards.
In WoW, with Wintergrasp and Tol Barad, you have raids where your faction has to own the land that the raid was located in order to participate. However, they provide fewer total good PvE items than other raids of the same level. So while it could help you get geared, it wasn't mandatory.
I think as long as it isn't mandatory, but can still provide an incentive to PvE players, it's a good idea. Have your normal dungeon/raid content, and also one "special" dungeon or raid that allows a group of players whose faction/group/guild/whatever owns it access to gear of an equivalent level to the normal dungeon/raid content.
Originally posted by MadFrenchie I enjoyed DF just like every other vanilla/Shrouded Isles DAoC player that I know, but it was a stroke of genius that was probably unintentionally balanced.
Darkness falls had separate wings that fed in from each realm's land, got progressively more dangerous (ranging from mid-level mobs up to elite mobs only taken down by groups), and was opened to PvE players OUTSIDE the PvP zones whenever that realm owned a majority of frontier (PvP) keeps. PvE players never HAD to PvP, with Shrouded Isles there were other PvE areas always available that provided competitive rewards, and would always have the chance to enter DF (at least on my server, all 3 realms experienced its ownership on a fairly common basis). However, if players of a realm really wanted time in that dungeon, they could help out the realm in the frontier. An awesome system that created connections between PvPers and PvEers without forcing anyone to do anything they didn't want to do. All Mythic had to do was ensure population balances to help keep the dungeon from being perma-owned by a certain realm(s).
Any other instance of PvE content gated behind PvP content should model it after the DF system. They could create their own unique system that struck the balance, but track records show it might be best to just emulate an old system that worked.
Good summary. And with that said.. Darkness Falls was not really gated behind PvP content.. as the poster above already said somehow. As a pve player you never had to pvp.. however it was tied to PvP, as some older PvP Dungeons(UO, Dungeons where PvP is allowed) are also tied to PvP.
In my mind gated content, especially with 2 different gameplay parts, is never a good idea. It is not a good idea to gate pvp content behind pve content, nor would it be a good idea to gate pve content behind pvp content.. or to gate RAid content behind crafting content. Because not everyone will like everything, and those will then locked out of their favored content.
To tie something together, or to mix content is a different thing and may lay ties between different player types.. therefor it was always a good idea to make pvpers dependable on crafters, or pveers dependable on pvpers(darkness falls), or similar stuff.. but just don't force players to play content they don't like to be able to play content they actually like.
However.. if it just optional and not mandatory it may be ok.. however i don't see a lot of advantage for gated content in general.. but that's my humble opinion.
I brought up DAOC early in the thread because it was the closest I could think of to the OP's example.
I agree, you don't have to reach some sort of PVP 'attunement' level before you can enter DF, but additionally if you go in DF you will at some point be killed by another player so PVP cannot be totally avoided.
I also agree that gating content behind another mechanic isn't really good, especially if they aren't very related. No entrance to a PVP zone if you don't first complete PVE attunement raid alpha is not a good idea, nor is the converse.
I'm not even a fan of games where they put the best crafting materials in PVP only zones to encourage crafters to come out and fight for them. Yeah, sure, I can get my guildmates to do it, or buy them from the market, but if I really want to be left alone to craft in peace, this mechanic would be annoying. (By the way, almost never want to do any crafting, but I can see where it would annoy the crafters)
I believe early in DAOC's life there were either crafting stations or vendors that could only be found/used in the PVP frontier keeps, so as a crafter your alliance or guild had to own them in order for you to craft certain items. They did away with this at some point, but I recall it being there originally.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Comments
A few posts above yours I explained it in general terms. To expoud:
Once DF changed hands, it did not automatically zone out players of other realms who were currently playing or were logged out in the zone. It simply changed the entrance permissions. So, high-level PvP players could log out in DF, and if it changed hands, could log those players in to defend their wing while other players either cotinued to farm or evacuated the dungeon. They could also stealth up the opposing faction's wing and gank lower level players who had just entered the dungeon through their newly opened access. Players of realms who did not have access respawned outside the dungeon if killed inside.
It made for a unique and temporary PvP session that mixed with dangerous PvE mobs (in the lower levels of the dungeon). However, eventually and inevitably, the dungeon would be controlled by the realm who owned its entrance at the time. Then it became a boon for its PvE rewards.
Keeps generally weren't simple things to take (at least, not when there were a number of defenders), so the dungeon could stay with a realm for a while. However, when populations weren't imbalanced, any realm could call out its extra players (PvEers who were willing to PvP for the access to DF) to take the keeps needed. In a way, DF itself was a population balancer: the winning realm generally had less folks in the frontiers due to DF access (folks liked clearing it out of enemy players and farmed there with alts to grind/gather resources), which gave the other two realms a slight advantage when attempting to take back keeps they had lost. It was quite beautiful, really.
EDIT - It's important to note that at no time were players forced to expose themselves to any sort of gameplay they didn't want to engage in. Once the dungeon changed hands, you could log your character out and leave him parked awaitig access to shift back to your realm, or leave the dungeon before the hordes came in to wipe you. You never had to step foot into the frontiers to enjoy the benefits of the dungeon, so long as your realm could capture the keeps required for its access. And, it wasn't the end-all-be-all of endgame content (at least not after Shrouded Isles), so max level PvEers had other things they could do if DF was closed to them. However, it did provide some unique drops and resources for crafting that made pushing for access worthwhile, and many primarily PvE players participated in PvE to help gain their realm access.
It "works" in the extent that players will play it.
However, many (including me, and everyone in my guild) prefers that boss is just available.
Good summary. And with that said.. Darkness Falls was not really gated behind PvP content.. as the poster above already said somehow. As a pve player you never had to pvp.. however it was tied to PvP, as some older PvP Dungeons(UO, Dungeons where PvP is allowed) are also tied to PvP.
In my mind gated content, especially with 2 different gameplay parts, is never a good idea. It is not a good idea to gate pvp content behind pve content, nor would it be a good idea to gate pve content behind pvp content.. or to gate RAid content behind crafting content. Because not everyone will like everything, and those will then locked out of their favored content.
To tie something together, or to mix content is a different thing and may lay ties between different player types.. therefor it was always a good idea to make pvpers dependable on crafters, or pveers dependable on pvpers(darkness falls), or similar stuff.. but just don't force players to play content they don't like to be able to play content they actually like.
However.. if it just optional and not mandatory it may be ok.. however i don't see a lot of advantage for gated content in general.. but that's my humble opinion.
I don't mind PvE content gated behind PvP, as long as there is other PvE content available of the same level that is not gated behind PvP and provides similar rewards.
In WoW, with Wintergrasp and Tol Barad, you have raids where your faction has to own the land that the raid was located in order to participate. However, they provide fewer total good PvE items than other raids of the same level. So while it could help you get geared, it wasn't mandatory.
I think as long as it isn't mandatory, but can still provide an incentive to PvE players, it's a good idea. Have your normal dungeon/raid content, and also one "special" dungeon or raid that allows a group of players whose faction/group/guild/whatever owns it access to gear of an equivalent level to the normal dungeon/raid content.
I brought up DAOC early in the thread because it was the closest I could think of to the OP's example.
I agree, you don't have to reach some sort of PVP 'attunement' level before you can enter DF, but additionally if you go in DF you will at some point be killed by another player so PVP cannot be totally avoided.
I also agree that gating content behind another mechanic isn't really good, especially if they aren't very related. No entrance to a PVP zone if you don't first complete PVE attunement raid alpha is not a good idea, nor is the converse.
I'm not even a fan of games where they put the best crafting materials in PVP only zones to encourage crafters to come out and fight for them. Yeah, sure, I can get my guildmates to do it, or buy them from the market, but if I really want to be left alone to craft in peace, this mechanic would be annoying. (By the way, almost never want to do any crafting, but I can see where it would annoy the crafters)
I believe early in DAOC's life there were either crafting stations or vendors that could only be found/used in the PVP frontier keeps, so as a crafter your alliance or guild had to own them in order for you to craft certain items. They did away with this at some point, but I recall it being there originally.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon