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Backlash to Action Combat

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  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon

    you'll find that guessing the silent ones want something exactly opposite than what the people speaking out want is a poor assumption.

     

    here's 1000 people, out of which 80% want classical targetting. CLEARLY THERE'S ANOTHER MILLION WHO WANTS THE OPPOSITE. (Based on what?).

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  • cheyanecheyane Rome Posts: 3,002Member Uncommon

    I feel horrible saying this especially since I liked Wildstar but secretly I am kinda glad it may be not doing well because hopefully they still make tab target games. I move about in FFXIV ARR a lot and still tab target. You have to avoid the damage telegraphs in it too but it is nowhere as crazy as Wildstar,

     

    Tera the animation lock did me in. I disliked ESO combat because it gave me a headache more than Wildstar but GW 2 is a good game I enjoyed that one. Also TSW was okay because the combat was slow and I enjoyed Age of Conan really a lot so I just felt Wildstar was just too much. Perhaps a hybrid of tab target and action is best for me. Well here's hoping some more games are made to suit me.

     

    I watched that video that DMKano put up on Wildstar raiding and how exhausting it looked and there is no way I can heal in that game and I was right to stop playing it although I miss the lore and I liked the art style and enjoyed my esper , I was right to give it up. 

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  • KuviskiKuviski KajaaniPosts: 214Member

    Honestly, both tab targeting and action combat  have their place in MMORPGs.

    Tab targeting appeals to more to the folk who are used to classic RPGs, tabletop stuff and the like, and that's what it simulates well. Hell, it  can even be made pretty entertaining for the action-loving people as well.

    On the other hand, action combat has it's place in games like Darkfall.

    So really, I think and hope they've both got a future. Personally I prefer tab targeting though.

  • aldav991aldav991 Manhattan, NYPosts: 5Member
    It may not have taken a spot from the big-name greats, but it's a step in the right direction. Tab-targetting is not necessarily bad and it can stay, but some games have to deviate from it to keep the genre in general fresh.
  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,141Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Pepeq
    Doesn't matter what combat system a game uses... nobody is going to play any of the new games for more than a month before switching games.  They don't care to spend all their time playing one game anymore.

    Not really. Depend on game.

    I already know from past experience I will stick with WOD for at least good half year (and will return many times for few months at a time before next expansion is released). Same with Swtor. Same or very close to with Rift.

    Left ARR before month for other reasons, left Wildstar and TSW after about 2 months for sole reason of that dumb limited 1 active toolbar decision.

    I return from time to time to AoC, CO, Lotro, ... but here I agree with you, they are no longer able to keep me in more then 1 month or so.

    Btw, do not confuse ACTION combat with tab targeting ABSENCE.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MightyUnclean

    I am curious about the future of action combat and tab-targeting in MMOs.  My guess is that a lot of the recently released and currently being developed action MMOs were a direct result of GW2, which was thought by many to be a truly revolutionary game that could be a WoW-killer.  That didn't come to pass, and unless I'm mistaken, none of the other action combat MMOs subsequently released have taken the top ranking spots in the West away from tab-target games like WoW, SWTOR and FFXIV.  Am I correct in this?  If this is the case, will future developers look at the continuing success of tab-target games and go back to this format with new games?  I don't think that action combat will go away, but is there room in the future for both styles?

     

     

    I fully believe that there is.

     

    Action combat is fun in other games, but it brings a shed load of negatives to the mix with MMORPGs, mostly having to to do with socialisation.

     

    Generally, action combat is for games that are a sprint, many players of MMORPGs enjoy these games as a marathon, to which tab combat is more suited.

     

    All this received wisdom of a style being 'outdated' is nonsense. Tab target isn't going anywhere. They are both equally valid, and choice is good.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aldav991
    It may not have taken a spot from the big-name greats, but it's a step in the right direction. 

     

    According to whom? 

     

    I feel, in the main, that the same people that call for action games are more or less the same people that call for forced PvP to be the focus of every game, despite it being proven that the majority do not want forced PvP, as they do not want action combat.

     

    It's good to have action and forced PvP games around, but it drives me a bit nuts when you hear the same old voices (not talking about Aldav991 here) demanding that their way is the 'right' way and any other style is wrong because it's 'carebear' or 'outdated', or whatever else.

  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by MightyUnclean

    What backlash?  You mean the very very very small vocal minority of these forums?  Nah I ignore most anything that goes on here.  Sadly these forums have been bad for far to long.  So much bitterness.

     

    Then why add to that bitterness?

     

    Be the change ;)

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,556Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by MightyUnclean

    I am curious about the future of action combat and tab-targeting in MMOs.  My guess is that a lot of the recently released and currently being developed action MMOs were a direct result of GW2, which was thought by many to be a truly revolutionary game that could be a WoW-killer.  That didn't come to pass, and unless I'm mistaken, none of the other action combat MMOs subsequently released have taken the top ranking spots in the West away from tab-target games like WoW, SWTOR and FFXIV.  Am I correct in this?  If this is the case, will future developers look at the continuing success of tab-target games and go back to this format with new games?  I don't think that action combat will go away, but is there room in the future for both styles?

     

     

    I fully believe that there is.

     

    Action combat is fun in other games, but it brings a shed load of negatives to the mix with MMORPGs, mostly having to to do with socialisation.

     

    Generally, action combat is for games that are a sprint, many players of MMORPGs enjoy these games as a marathon, to which tab combat is more suited.

     

    All this received wisdom of a style being 'outdated' is nonsense. Tab target isn't going anywhere. They are both equally valid, and choice is good.

    I don't agree that there is any difference between socialization in tab target or action combat.  Games can be slower paced and be action combat.  

    I think action true aim MMO's are less popular as there is a larger gap in skill between the top and the bottom.  There is almost no chance that someone in the lower skill level will beat a higher skilled player in Darkfall.  People don't like being slaughtered with no hope.  I love the game and I'm a lower level PvP person, but I can see how most would get killed 25 times in a row (in 1 vs 1 situations) and never go back.  In tab target games I have a much higher chance of getting a kill as a lower tier PvPer.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Mardukk

    I think action true aim MMO's are less popular as there is a larger gap in skill between the top and the bottom.  There is almost no chance that someone in the lower skill level will beat a higher skilled player in Darkfall.  People don't like being slaughtered with no hope.  I love the game and I'm a lower level PvP person, but I can see how most would get killed 25 times in a row (in 1 vs 1 situations) and never go back.  In tab target games I have a much higher chance of getting a kill as a lower tier PvPer.

    Not every game is pvp. Having a pve game, with a difficulty slider, and everyone can enjoy action combat.

    It is just a matter of preferences. I like action combat with some physical effects (like those in Diablo 3) but hey, that is not the only way to do combat mechanics in a game.

     

  • randomtrandomt no thanks, BCPosts: 1,180Member


    Originally posted by Mardukk
     

    I think action true aim MMO's are less popular as there is a larger gap in skill between the top and the bottom.  There is almost no chance that someone in the lower skill level will beat a higher skilled player in Darkfall.  People don't like being slaughtered with no hope.  I love the game and I'm a lower level PvP person, but I can see how most would get killed 25 times in a row (in 1 vs 1 situations) and never go back.  In tab target games I have a much higher chance of getting a kill as a lower tier PvPer.


    Unless the mmo is specifically designed for it in most cases the lower level's attacks will simply be resisted by the higher level, in the tab targetted mmo's, whereas a skill based mmo, in theory, will let a low level hit the high level if his ability with the fighting system is good enough to land some hits.

    For example (of a player's own skill based system) a 2 year old FPS character in Battlefield can still be killed by a very very new character, but will your level 1 wow character kill a level 50, ever?

    The twitch combat system should be like that.. Older characters might have a bit better armor and a fancier weapon, but an entry level player with a wooden sword should still be able to slap him silly if the old player is incompetent or drunk..

    One day in the distant future we'll get in a matrix-like game environment and do the actual fighting ourselves, not roll dice and watch from above.. so might as well get used to it

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    What?

  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,228Member Uncommon

    I think TESO did a good job with the pace of their combat.

    A lot of "action combat" is really fast paced twitchy stuff, I think something more along the lines of Dark Souls style action combat would be fun in an MMO. Slower, more strategic action combat with some weight and momentum.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon

    I like mayonnaise and coke zero, but I wouldn't like them mixed together. I find mixing FPS with RPG about as appealing.



    Originally posted by Azoth
    It's not an RPG to me if all that matters is how good and fast you can circle or bunny hop around. For that type of gameplay I go with FPS that does it way better.

    For my mmorpg I think the stats of the character should be the key deciding factor, thus why tab targeting always seemed to do better to me.



    I could not have said it better, myself.



    Originally posted by Xthos
    Not a huge fan of the gigantic weapons, super flashy combat, and damage numbers flying everywhere, like a arcade game in mmorpgs.

    OMG totally; I think this aspect was one of the reasons Vanguard never took off. I always found the combat in Vanguard to be abstract. And numbers flying all over the screen was a big part, especially since I never knew which numbers were mine!! It also made the game seem more mario brothers-ish rather than an RPG.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • StilerStiler Athens, TNPosts: 599Member

    There has yet to (imo) be a fantasy based mmorpg that actually went for full 100% action combat. Guild Wars 2 and most "action" combat mmorpgs still have one foot planted firmly in traditional mmo combat in some form. It's like they are all too scared to take that "leap" and make a full 100% action combat leap with their gameplay, they don't want to "alienate" the mmo vets (even if many of us are sick and tired of tab-target, cycle rotation combat).

     

    I mean lets look at some GOOD "Action" games with good "combat."

     

    You have imo the end-all be all action game for melee combat, Severance (aka Blade of Darkness). A very underrated action-adventure game that came out in the early 2000's. It had a huge depth of combat moves that were depending on both the character you played as and what weapon you used. The game relied heavily on both offensive and defense. It used a stamina system where if you used too much you'd become exhausted, you'd move slower and be open to attack. This is what stopped you from "spamming" moves (there's no "Cooldowns) and there's no "hotkeys."

    Now for both Ranged and Mounted combat imo no game has done it better then Mount and Blade. The archery and horseback combat just feels good. Most of all they have many rpg elements, your archery skills as a character influence your bow but it doesn't take "control" away from you, you still aim and do everything as the player but your characters skills in it can influence how long you can draw your bow before the aiming cone (IE where the arrow will go) gets bigger and bigger (thus the arrows landing area is more random).

     

    Then you have honorable mentions like Rune, Jedi Knight games, and the more out there action games like God of War and probably the "closest" action-rpg to get near a good fun combat system, Kingdoms of Amalur.

    Not a single mmorpg can come close to any of these games in combat.

     

    Even if they say action they still want to keep hold of either tab-target, or "sticky" target (IE you hit whatever is near your mouse or character, like in the Neverwinter mmorpg), or things like blocking/dodging don't actually....block or dodge well (IE you take dmg even if you block the hit with a shield, or dodge hardly works (IE Guild wars 2).

     

    That is why imo most "action mmorpgs" have backlash, because the ACTUAL combat isn't 100% action combat and because they keep trying to half-ass it and mix it with "Traditional" mmorpg style combat it feels crappy and doesn't work good or isn't "fun" to play.

     

     

     

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sleepyfish
    I like action combat to a point like removing tab target , but not to the point where I only have less than a handful of skills to choose from and no weapon or options for flexibility. Thats where action combat has failed its not the combat its the console dumbing down of class mechanics that go along with it.

    This pretty much. I am surprised this isn't talked about more when this subject comes up.

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  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,469Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MightyUnclean
    Originally posted by Mavolence
    Wasn't Age of Conan an action combat game before GW2? Or Tabula Rasa,Darkfall?,Mortal,Tera?

    Were they?  GW2 is the game that I remember bringing action combat into the mainstream.

    Ok. I am calling bullshit.   You got called on your bs claim and now you add additional qualification of mainstream.  GW2 wasn't first.  Got it. Stop trying to turn it into a claim.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lugal
    The only people who should slighted are those with real disabilities.
    When I played SWG, there were many who played with 1 hand. Not by choice, but due to a disability. Now if a game that has action combat and can not be configured to play with 1 hand, then those people would feel slighted.

    I use to play WoW as a clicker and I never tab targeted. So with one hand I could handle that system as well

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  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,849Member Uncommon
    GW2 is part action combat, part tab target and I think more of the latter than the former.  I think there is room for both styles but I do think the "future" is in action combat.  The reason is technology like Oculus Rift is pushing us closer to VR play (yes, like Sword Art Onlineimage).  It's hard to pull that off in a realistic fashion without action or reticle based combat.  There will be many iterations in the coming years of action combat but I think a system based as such with a wide variety of abilities like current tab target systems is possible.  That's what I think is missing at the moment is action combat with more than 12 abilities.  My hope is that intuitive systems that integrate "tiered" abilities are added to action/reticle systems.
  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Niagara Falls, NYPosts: 3,436Member Uncommon
    Well, I think back in the EQ1 days the slower combat was largely a necessity based on the latency of Internet connections. Now that this isn't an issue developers are looking at different styles of combat that exist in single player games.

    Tab targeting combat really doesn't exist outside of MMORPGs. There is really no reason any MMO has to be tab target anymore.

    I think we are just going to see more different styles of combat as MMORPG developers are free now to use whatever combat style they like.

    ESO was originally going to be a tab target design until fans (rightfully so) expressed their dislike of that idea as it goes against what the elder scrolls series has always been.

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  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by Niburu
    Originally posted by MightyUnclean
    Originally posted by Mavolence
    Wasn't Age of Conan an action combat game before GW2? Or Tabula Rasa,Darkfall?,Mortal,Tera?

    Were they?  GW2 is the game that I remember bringing action combat into the mainstream.

    tera, vindictus and please dont say GW2 has action combat, it has targeted abiltiies but the core is Tab Target lol

    Uh no.  Your hits will actually miss if you don't  aim correctly.  The targeting is just a crutch if you want to use it.  GW2 can also be played without targeting.  There isn't any crosshair, and that's why people like you think it's not action combat, when it actually is.

    Apparently you think Tera and Vindictus are mainstream too.  That's funny, i don't remember either of them selling over 3.5 million copies, or being promoted with massive marketing hype on all the major MMO, and non-MMO websites.

    Dude In GW2 many skills curve to hit targetd characters. Try it out. I proved this back at launch when a few cats here called me a troll for pointing this out. 

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  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by Niburu
    Originally posted by MightyUnclean
    Originally posted by Mavolence
    Wasn't Age of Conan an action combat game before GW2? Or Tabula Rasa,Darkfall?,Mortal,Tera?

    Were they?  GW2 is the game that I remember bringing action combat into the mainstream.

    tera, vindictus and please dont say GW2 has action combat, it has targeted abiltiies but the core is Tab Target lol

    Uh no.  Your hits will actually miss if you don't  aim correctly.  The targeting is just a crutch if you want to use it.  GW2 can also be played without targeting.  There isn't any crosshair, and that's why people like you think it's not action combat, when it actually is.

    Apparently you think Tera and Vindictus are mainstream too.  That's funny, i don't remember either of them selling over 3.5 million copies, or being promoted with massive marketing hype on all the major MMO, and non-MMO websites.

    Dude In GW2 many skills curve to hit targetd characters. Try it out. I proved this back at launch when a few cats here called me a troll for pointing this out. 

    Agree.. GW2 is tab targeting with the exception of AE type spells..  ALL non AE skills will be inactive unless you have a target in range.. 

  • bigenokiheadbigenokihead Houston, TXPosts: 5Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by Niburu
    Originally posted by MightyUnclean
    Originally posted by Mavolence
    Wasn't Age of Conan an action combat game before GW2? Or Tabula Rasa,Darkfall?,Mortal,Tera?

    Were they?  GW2 is the game that I remember bringing action combat into the mainstream.

    tera, vindictus and please dont say GW2 has action combat, it has targeted abiltiies but the core is Tab Target lol

    Uh no.  Your hits will actually miss if you don't  aim correctly.  The targeting is just a crutch if you want to use it.  GW2 can also be played without targeting.  There isn't any crosshair, and that's why people like you think it's not action combat, when it actually is.

    Apparently you think Tera and Vindictus are mainstream too.  That's funny, i don't remember either of them selling over 3.5 million copies, or being promoted with massive marketing hype on all the major MMO, and non-MMO websites.

    Dude In GW2 many skills curve to hit targetd characters. Try it out. I proved this back at launch when a few cats here called me a troll for pointing this out. 

    You're not a troll, I'd even say you're Captain Obvious. In jest, of course, GW2 is tab-targetting so ostensibly. Non-tab games, hmmm, may Phantasy Star Online 2 and Firefall.

  • StilerStiler Athens, TNPosts: 599Member
    Originally posted by Dreamo84
    Well, I think back in the EQ1 days the slower combat was largely a necessity based on the latency of Internet connections. Now that this isn't an issue developers are looking at different styles of combat that exist in single player games.

    Tab targeting combat really doesn't exist outside of MMORPGs. There is really no reason any MMO has to be tab target anymore.

    I think we are just going to see more different styles of combat as MMORPG developers are free now to use whatever combat style they like.

    ESO was originally going to be a tab target design until fans (rightfully so) expressed their dislike of that idea as it goes against what the elder scrolls series has always been.

    THey must have no heard then because the combat (Especially range) still relies on soft locks, you can't "miss" even if you aim away from a target with range, your spells go to the nearest target where your mouse is pointed, similar to Neverwinter.

     

    Even so the regular TES games have horrid combat in the first place so not really something anyone should aspire to imo (at least melee combat, and the fact that targetting certain areas offers 0 difference in dmg or any different effects).

  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Boring, TXPosts: 1,171Member Uncommon
    Uh. . . do people not research anything these days or is this a troll thread?
  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,422Member Uncommon

    I am not saying it is impossible but what i have seen is action combat is dumbed down combat when compared to in depth tab combat such as FFXI.No game on this planet has as many systems bult into it's combat as FFXI ,including on the fly macro gear swapping.

    Action combat is usually based on aiming and nothing more.I love BOTH types but they have to be utilized properly in a certain type of game.Example i love aiming in a fps such as Unreal Tournament or Quake but cannot stand it's simplicity in rpg's.Outside of ARENA type combat which in itself adds a lot to the skill set,i only see aiming viable in an army type setting with realistic weapons example Call of Duty ect ect.

    Think about it,where in real life would you see two people walk right out in the open and start firing on each other,it is FAKE and defeats the purpose of adding realism through aiming.You should have the proper map layout with places to take cover,that is realistic and rpg's NEVER do mapping to support pvp.Even with PVE the mob ALWAYS attacks you,you think if you shot at something in real life it will attack before running?

    IMO it is just a bunch of clueless people designing the systems,they just toss together an idea without thinking about how plausible it is.


    Samoan Diamond

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