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Why "MMO's" are in a steady decline.

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  • Spankster77Spankster77 Marlton, NJPosts: 404Member

    OP, you make several good points although when UO and EQ were released online gaming was a new concept.  The fact that you could play with thousands of people from all over the world was a mind blowing concept,  now live in a online world.  I am interacting with hundreds of people everyday via FB, email, myfitnesspal, x-box live, etc.  Gaming online is just another form of gaming which is why the social aspect of online gaming has been in decline.  A major part of MMOs back then was the community, which consisted largely of pen and paper players that liked to RP and such. 

     

    By todays standards both EQ and UO would be considered huge flops strictly based on sub numbers and sales.  So what you had back then was a small, like minded, tight knit community that had two options.  While the MMO community is much larger today there is also a much broader spectrum of people playing spread across hundreds of games. 

     

    P.S. - you should probably check out Darkfall.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Javelin007

     

     

    I'd like to talk about why I believe MMO's are in a steady decline.

     

    etc

    After reading your post I have to say that "no" mmo's are not in decline. Quite the opposite actually.

    And secondly, though I understand what you want from an mmo, they really don't "have to be" that way.

    So "no" you don't have to have danger or a mechanic to remove items, etc.

    The thing is, if people don't value a certain experience then you don't need it.

    At least in games that are catering to that specific demographic.

     

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,314Member Uncommon
    I pretty much disagree with almost everything you stated.

    Mmo are not in a decline. As evidenced from upcoming games the creativity dude is huge and arguably bigger than they have been for years. Wushu was the only game I've played that actually had real mechanics to deter greifing and even that had problems aside from the game itself being fairly and unnecessarily complicated. Regarding the sword the risk imo is not with losing the sword the risk is in the high degree of failure and death in trying to get the sword.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by Pepeq
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
     

     

     

    It is what is called the "hook", using a title that is guaranteed to get readers, then actually discussing something different.

     

    This thread has been seen and said many times before... it's the old, my opinion on the subject warrants it's own thread because I bring something new to the discussion... when in fact, it does not.

    journalism hooks are the stuff of pure evil

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • OldSquirrelOldSquirrel Raleigh, NCPosts: 20Member

    One thing worth adding to your analysis is that the "larger community" who crash into today's MMOs are filled with:

     

    Lazy people

     

    Obnoxious people

     

    Arrogant people

     

    Unhelpful people

     

     

    ...and people who like to OFFEND others instead of attempting to immerse themselves in an on-line fantasy environment.

     

     

    T'was not always this way.... the old days of fantasy nerd-dom are long gone.

     

     

    Today, I find myself more interested in games like Hearthstone, where the dark side of today's online gamers have very little effect on my fun.

     

     

     

    "I'm a nerd, and I'm pretty proud of it." - Gilbert, Revenge of the Nerds[1984]

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,903Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Javelin007
    Apologies if someone has spoken exactly the same words as me. While I am certain there are many threads about this subject I feel my keynotes at the end are likely the difference between mine and any other such post on a similar subject.

    No those are typical points made, as others I'd like to see some kind of proof that MMO gaming is having a steady decline outside of opinion or anecdotal evidence.

    If they were truly in a decline I'd think we'd see far more games closing their doors. Especially considering just how many MMORPGs are on the market.

     

     

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • JabasJabas Caldas da RainhaPosts: 1,207Member Common

    Sorry not to read your post OP, was to long but i just want to coment the title:

     

    I tottaly disagree, MMOs are getting better and better.

    We have plenty of options on the market, sometimes is not easy to find the game that we want atm.

    And there is some intersting projects for the next years.

     

    MMOs are moving forward, slowlly but moving.

    Still loving the old ones? Then play them, most are still around.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,642Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Pepeq
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Javelin007

     

    I missed what the measure was that you were using to indicate MMOs are in a state of steady decline. Also missed the data you used to support that notion. It seems like this should have been entitled

    "300 MMOs and millions enjoying them, but I'm bored. The problem must be the games."

    It is what is called the "hook", using a title that is guaranteed to get readers, then actually discussing something different.

    This thread has been seen and said many times before... it's the old, my opinion on the subject warrants it's own thread because I bring something new to the discussion... when in fact, it does not.

    So, basically... I got Upworthy'd. imageimage

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Eglin AFB, FLPosts: 653Member Uncommon
    While I'm not going to assume MMOs are in the decline or imply it..

    Is there any data to support the genre is on the rise?

    If not, while one may criticize the OP for his claim of decline, you cannot then commit the same mistake he does and claim growth based on anecdotal evidence. At least, not without egg on your face.

    One would think that, if the genre is on the rise, major titles would gain increasingly larger average playerbases past the first 1-3 months after release. Is there any data to support a claim that the average number of players per major entry into the genre has been consistently growing over the past 5-10 years?

    Or that the average number of players over a game's lifetime has held while the number of major titles have increased significantly?

    With the rise of F2P, this becomes increasingly muddy. Players can, without spending a dime in support of the genre, be included in the playerbases of 3-4 MMOs every month by a single login to each. Now, according to the data, one player has become four. All without actually supporting any development or studio in the genre whatsoever. Does that still count as a rise?

    image
  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,941Member Uncommon
    New MMO come out every year and very little shut down, so the genre itself is reasonable healthy. The single biggest issue for me is the amount of investment and innovation that blizzard withholds from the genre to feed their large profit goals.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • FingzFingz Tucson, AZPosts: 136Member

    A lot of us think that young people aren't joining MMOs anymore.  Young non-nerds are playing first person shooters while nerdlings are playing Minecraft.  When people leave MMOs because they've found new entertainment or they die even, there is no one to replace them.

    So unless you can find a way to attract the young to MMOs, the number of MMO players will continue to drop.

    Some might say, 'well make the games better' but Minecraft and FPS are also making better games.

  • PepeqPepeq Poway, CAPosts: 1,487Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    New MMO come out every year and very little shut down, so the genre itself is reasonable healthy. The single biggest issue for me is the amount of investment and innovation that blizzard withholds from the genre to feed their large profit goals.

    I agree... there are far more titles out there now than ever before... what's declining is our attention span to any one of them... we just hop from one to the next to the next.  I think if you add up all the folks dabbling in all the titles there are out there now, you will find that the total exceeds WoW's best numbers and then some.  The number of people playing these games is on the rise... they just are spread out over a much larger selection of titles.  Which is why sub numbers are meaningless unless you consider the totality of players playing all MMOs world-wide... WoW has ~7 million subscribers, but there are 20 million + playing other games.  That would put the majority of players playing something other than WoW.  Fake numbers here, but odds are, that's how it really plays out.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MadFrenchie
    While I'm not going to assume MMOs are in the decline or imply it..

    Is there any data to support the genre is on the rise?

    If not, while one may criticize the OP for his claim of decline, you cannot then commit the same mistake he does and claim growth based on anecdotal evidence. At least, not without egg on your face.

    One would think that, if the genre is on the rise, major titles would gain increasingly larger average playerbases past the first 1-3 months after release. Is there any data to support a claim that the average number of players per major entry into the genre has been consistently growing over the past 5-10 years?

    Or that the average number of players over a game's lifetime has held while the number of major titles have increased significantly?

    With the rise of F2P, this becomes increasingly muddy. Players can, without spending a dime in support of the genre, be included in the playerbases of 3-4 MMOs every month by a single login to each. Now, according to the data, one player has become four. All without actually supporting any development or studio in the genre whatsoever. Does that still count as a rise?

    I was never a big believer in the (edited) "population growth equals success" mode of thought.

    Because it's just not sustainable. There is always going to be a somewhat finite amount of customers for any given enterprise.

    I would offer that with the ever increasing amount of games, if they can stay open and running then the genre can accommodate it and the "rise" is the ability to accept and maintain new games.

    This is not to say that the population that is interested in mmo's won't/can't grow or shrink but I would say that if additional mmo offerings continue to crop up and continue to "stay afloat" (at the very least) then the genre is "on the rise".

    If mmo's go under more than new mmo's appear then that's a decline.

    Granted that's a little simplistic but with more and more mmo's being offered and very few (in comparison) going under it seems that there is game growth even if there isn't population growth. Which probably has some finite limit.

  • ClerigoClerigo MatosinhosPosts: 400Member Common

    OP:

    couldnt had said it better myself. Im there with you.

    This new crowd of less-demanding players are eating everything that gets thrown at them, and they dont know how to put the words "epic" and "fantasy" in the same sentence.

    Its more or less the same crowd that puts the latest transformer movie past the 1 billion mark in earnings. They just want flashy cosmetics and pretty lights and everything is ok to them. (no offense)

    I, since the days of Vanilla WoW, have bought game after game after game hoping to find something magical again, but the only thing i get is disappoinment and a few laughs...not good laughs, more like madman laughs.

    So, do like me, step aside and let this new train roll, it will eventually crash and ill have some good laughs when i hear the news, while shooting some pool with my friends.

    Best game i have found since i left WoW: Real Life. Its crazy.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,452Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Clerigo

    OP:

    couldnt had said it better myself. Im there with you.

    This new crowd of less-demanding players are eating everything that gets thrown at them, and they dont know how to put the words "epic" and "fantasy" in the same sentence.

    Its more or less the same crowd that puts the latest transformer movie past the 1 billion mark in earnings. They just want flashy cosmetics and pretty lights and everything is ok to them. (no offense)

    I, since the days of Vanilla WoW, have bought game after game after game hoping to find something magical again, but the only thing i get is disappoinment and a few laughs...not good laughs, more like madman laughs.

    So, do like me, step aside and let this new train roll, it will eventually crash and ill have some good laughs when i hear the news, while shooting some pool with my friends.

    Best game i have found since i left WoW: Real Life. Its crazy.

    You are trying to equate people who put "transformers movies past the one billion dollar mark" as somehow being lesser than you the video game player?

    I certainly hope you can appreciate the irony.

    Or to put it another way, there are people who look down upon "you the video game player" and put you as  being the same level as what you just tried to categorize those "Transformer movie fans"

    Also, there are people who would say that "Vanilla WoW" is every bit the trash they believe it to be over say Shadowbane, Ultima Online and Lineage 2.

     

  • GabiruGabiru SagresPosts: 62Member Common
    Originally posted by Sovrath

    Also, there are people who would say that "Vanilla WoW" is every bit the trash they believe it to be over say Shadowbane, Ultima Online and Lineage 2.

     

    I'm one of those, Ultima Online lasted for a long time, Lineage2 for about 5 years, Wow only one week. Still play Lineage2 once in a while on private servers, there isn't any better yet. My vote on the mmorpg goes to play2win.

    It's a good thing that we are all different thou

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by iridescence

    The thing is to have gameplay mechanisms in place to punish and discourage griefing whilst allowing most other playstyles to flourish.

     

    Why bother? Just have different game modes. Those who don't want griefing and choose a mode (pve-only for example) where griefing is not possible.

     

    Problem is now you are making two games really instead of just one and something will suffer.

    Suffer a lot less than trying to mesh two incompatible game mode together. Or if resource is an issue, cut one of the two. It is not mandatory to have both game modes in a single game.

     

  • BigdaddyxBigdaddyx California, WAPosts: 1,985Member Uncommon
    I think moderators should make a sticky on general forums where people can talk about 'decline', 'death' and other doom and gloom in relation to MMOS. That would be much better option than getting rehashed topics atleast 2 to 3 times every week.
  • ThaneThane berlinPosts: 2,230Member Uncommon

    people claim mmos are dieing for nearly 8 years now

    gets kinda boring ^^

     

     

    YOU not likeing sth does not mean the rest of the world thinks the same, bout time you guys understand that

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • PepeqPepeq Poway, CAPosts: 1,487Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bigdaddyx
    I think moderators should make a sticky on general forums where people can talk about 'decline', 'death' and other doom and gloom in relation to MMOS. That would be much better option than getting rehashed topics atleast 2 to 3 times every week.

    That would assume people bothered to read the previous threads on the subject before posting their own.  Based on the repetitive nature of the posts, the resounding conclusion would be, no, no one really reads the previous threads, just bits and pieces of it... which of course deserve a rebuttal in the form of a new thread.

     

    Cycle repeats itself.  I liken it to collect X quests in MMORPGs... people seem to hate them but can't help but do them all the same.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon

    MMOs need to find new ideas, not really remaking UO or SWG over and over no matter how fun those games were once. People have tried several times and it never really gets past a small niche game.

    Those games did have risk versus reward better than most modern games though but you can get that with new ideas as well.

    I think devs should start from the beginning altogether instead. Take a good pen and paper RPG like Shadowrun and think about how you can turn the experience playing it into an online game. Forget about EQ, UO and Wow and try to instead think about how the pnp games mechanics could be turned into a MMO.

    Let players run CORPs, Shadowrun teams, Streetgangs, smuggling operations, security teams that keeps the law and similar "guilds" and let them compete over resources, research, sabotage and even have wars between them (hidden for corps while streetgangs would do it more openly).

    And that is just one example, I could see a great Call of Chthulhu/Delta green MMO or a historical MMO where players take sides in the 30 year wars and fight for territory. The only limitations is what is fun and many things would be.

    MMOs should move forward, not backwards but for that to happen we actually need new ideas. Remaking a game that have already been done many times might give you some cash but not that much compare to something new (unless you make it a lot better) and every time someone does a very similar games the less will the income be.

    It is sad that WoDO was canceled but there is at least class 4 that will do this. More companies than Microsoft/Undead labs should give it a try.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Loke666

    I think devs should start from the beginning altogether instead. Take a good pen and paper RPG like Shadowrun and think about how you can turn the experience playing it into an online game. Forget about EQ, UO and Wow and try to instead think about how the pnp games mechanics could be turned into a MMO.

    nah .. if i want a good pnp RPG experience, i will play one.

    Computer games should be different. I don't play a computer game for a pnp experience.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,642Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loke666

    MMOs need to find new ideas, not really remaking UO or SWG over and over no matter how fun those games were once. 

    And they are. Some examples are:

    • Everquest Next
    • Wildstar
    • Defiance
    • Trove
    • Age of Wushu
    • Pirate 101
    • The Secret World 
    • Guild Wars 2
    • Dragon's Prophet

     

    Those are just more of the same, right? Ok, how about...

    • Vindictus
    • APB: Reloaded
    • WorldAlpha
    • Path of Exile
    • Firefall
    • Die2Nite
    • the PBBGs (ex: Evony, Grepolis, Travian, Ikarian, EmpireCraft)
    • the MOBAs (ex: Bloodline Champions, SMITE, LoL, Nosgoth)
    • the Online TCGs (ex: Hex, SolForge, Legends of Norrath, Hearthstone)

     

    Those aren't MMO, right? 

     

    See the vicious circle we have here? 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Javelin007Javelin007 Redmond, WAPosts: 13Member

    So first, I want to thank everyone whose participating in this discussion. Whether you agree with my point of view or not I appreciate the time spent to voice opinions.

     

    I am bad, I did use a pretty typical hook to get peoples attention.

     

    The main issue I think I have with mmo's currently is the lack of innovation. For instance guild wars 2, one of their big innovative ideas was that your actions would effect the world. The way this would happen is through scripted events. Basically every so often AI would overrun a town until they were pushed out by players effectively resetting a timer before it would happen again.

     

    So while this at first gives the appearance that you did something, 10 minutes later it's happened again. Endless monotony. 

     

    This is unavoidable in themepark mmos where the only content available is the content provided by game designers.

     

    I think players should be given the tools to control and effect the world they exist in. This is the main thing I'd like to know if any of you agree with or not.

     

    Does this mean there is a potential for griefing, sure it does if you model it after any other mmo ever made but I think if you approach it outside the box of stereotypical systems you can at the very least lessen the foul taste this usually leaves in casual players mouths.

     

    How? Here's my example. One of the biggest issues I feel people have in games with freedom of combat (essentially pvp) is getting griefed. Griefing usually is associated with being involved unwillingly in an unfair fight, though you could argue that being involved in a fight at all that you didn't want could be considered getting greifed.

     

    Let's say that instead of looting someones valuables you could obtain tokens for participating in pvp, only it would work like this.

    Situation 1 (non grief)

    1 player vs 1 other player. Both are equal skill level, player A wins and is awarded 3 tokens, player B dies but is awarded 2 tokens for gaining "combat experience".

    Tokens are universal and used to purchase really nice gear.

    Are you still upset that you died?

    Situation 2.

    5 guys steamroll 1 dude (grief)

    All 5 are awarded 0 tokens as the kill is considered unchallenging, player who died is awarded 1 token for attempting to take out 5 dudes at once, though should he manage to kill anyone during said fight see example one, 3 tokens for each kill.

     

    Obviously this system would need to be polished as it's just a seed of an idea.

    The point is I am curious if you guys have any thoughts on how you would do things differently.

    So I ask of all of you:

    What is that one thing you really hate about an mmo of your choice? What would you do to solve it?

    Do you hate how crafting is usually done? Do you hate how pvp is often done? Do you hate how levels or skill systems are done? What would you change?

    I mean even if you love a particular mmo I would guess there is something you wish was done differently?

     

     

  • BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,621Member Uncommon

    Well, your first example of 1 vs 1 is flawed IMO.   Essentially you are giving tokens for failure.  Many people will have issue with this.   One extra token for winning?   All the other guy has to do is lose more than the other guy wins and he comes out ahead.  And we all know how hard losing is.

     

    Example 2 is a bit more punishing for the badguys.   However I would have to ask, just how does the game determine a fair fight?  It might be possible via levels but there could be gear and weapons involved too.   What if you thought you were going against a fair opponent and the game determined it to be unfair in the other persons favor?  Would you have the opportunity to decline the fight or would you just accept the punishment?  People might be deterred from fighting in some cases.

     

    And as for asking what I would wish changed in a game that I play,  my answer is that I don't look at things that way.  A game, like anything, is what it is.  Either you like it or you don't, or something in between.   But why change it?  You may not like something and someone else might think that is just perfect.   Now the game is better for you and worse for someone else.   The best example I have of that is Voyage Century.   That was a wonderful explore / craft game where crafting and levels had meaning.  Then Snail games went and butchered it to pieces with patch after patch that basically gave everyone level 20 gear at level 1.  They turned an amazing and intersting game into a faceroll.   The game was perfect as it was and somehow they got the crazy idea they were improving it for players.  Some maybe. Most no.

     

    So I say quit worrying about how you think things should be and accept games for what they are. Make the most of what they offer.   And if the devs change something and it sucks, well move on.  If they make something better, let them know you like it.  Simple as that.

     

    But al this wishing for "oh if only they made a game like this"  is really just wasted effort IMO.  Its not going to change anything and in the end only makes you more frustrated.

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

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