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Have dev's learned the quest hub lesson yet?

2

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  • BigdaddyxBigdaddyx California, WAPosts: 1,985Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    Or are we going to see some more $40 million dollar MMO's splash and crash?

    I mean, they've had like 10 years worth of examples.  One would think they'd learn.

    Quest hubs were never the problem or the reason for under performing MMOS.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
    Originally posted by VicDynamo
    There is nothing wrong with quest hubs if the stuff they give you to do is fun.

    +1

     

    I'd actually prefer a quest hub. You know what really sucks? Developers screwing with your head. Developers sending you off on wild goose chase quests, making you explore massive maps, searching for hours and hours, all for a lacklustre reward. I don't mind them doing away with quest hubs, go for it, but if they do that, then make the progression rewarding and meaningful. That goes for quest hubs and otherwise. 

     

    I think that the bigger issue is developers creating meaningless content. 

    that is the problem. Not the quest hubs themselves. Its the content behind it. Meaningless tasks are not fun, dont tell any good story, dont do anything good. Boring content is boring no matter how you do it. Tasks are useless time sinks that have invaded games, mostly mmos, but even outside mmos are becoming a plague now.

    image
  • AvanahAvanah Posts: 945Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    Or are we going to see some more $40 million dollar MMO's splash and crash?

    I mean, they've had like 10 years worth of examples.  One would think they'd learn.

    If you are referring to WoW, they did anything BUT splash and crash. 10 yrs worth of success. One would think they don't need to learn. We as gamers need to adjust to changes as we always did.

    No, I do not play WoW, Yes...MMOs are always evolving. Yes, this thread was meaningless. Yes.../thread closed.

    TGIF...Thank God I'm Female

    "My Fantasy is having two men at once...
    One Cooking and One Cleaning!"

  • SomeOldBlokeSomeOldBloke Lancaster, UKPosts: 2,141Member Uncommon
    Quest hubs are fine, dev's just need to give us alternate ways of progressing our character (note i said progressing not leveling) and not have quests as the most efficient way to progress. Lets get rid of the '!' though, just have a notice board (or mission terminal) that we can click on for our tasks. Quests should be that, something Epic and have multiple parts taking you on a journey given to you by the Lord of the realm, General of the Army, etc - and they should be optional. Put the usual KTR, on the notice board.
  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    Or are we going to see some more $40 million dollar MMO's splash and crash?

    I mean, they've had like 10 years worth of examples.  One would think they'd learn.

    Have the players learned yet to stop hyping games into oblivion? Have the players learned that all things are compromise and sometimes it is hard to put things into games?

     

    This topic is a 2-edged sword. You cannot look at one and blame just the other side without taking a critical look at your own side.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,668Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by DMKano

    When was the last time we've even had a $40mil MMO - every AAA MMORPG recently has been more than double that. 

         So true.. but the thing is.. Why does it cost $40 million plus to begin with..  Give me a staff of 100 full time employees, that will suck up $6 million/yr and another $100k/yr for Admin/Overhead cost, and $1 million for building location..  There is NO REASON to spend more then $35 million (5 year span) to produce a AAA game..  But then if you set up shop in a HIGH cost of living area like San Diego, no wonder it cost so much..  How about these gaming companies set up shop in West Virginia, and save half their budget..

    What was the last MMO that you created that you are basing this on? 

     

    On the studio location thing, if you're working on a project that is going to take 3-5 years to create and then remain updated for (hopefully) five or more years beyond that, you're going to want to have access to talent, both to expand and to replace existing. That's why most studios set up near big cities and tech schools. If the talent isn't local, you have to bring it in, and you can only do so if people are willing to go there. That's why places like Charlotte, NC - a city with higher than US average salaries and lower than US average cost of living - is not a hotbed of game development and why Seattle is one of the places to be for game development. In Bumblefudge, WV, you're going to have to offer higher salaries and pay a decent bit for relocation or you're going to have to settle for whatever you can get in talent. 

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • observerobserver Houston, TXPosts: 3,006Member Uncommon
    TSW did a pretty good job on questing.  I wish more developers would take an approach similar to it, instead of multiple quest hubs where the stories are insignificant to the overall story.  
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by observer
    TSW did a pretty good job on questing.  I wish more developers would take an approach similar to it, instead of multiple quest hubs where the stories are insignificant to the overall story.  

     

    They did have some quest hubs, but you're right, they did a good job of moving you through the game, and making the questing feel like a progressive part of the overall narrative.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • UtinniUtinni Richmond, VAPosts: 380Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    Or are we going to see some more $40 million dollar MMO's splash and crash?

    I mean, they've had like 10 years worth of examples.  One would think they'd learn.

    Pretty sure quest hub mmo's completely dominate the market. Hardly anyone plays ones that aren't. 

    This of course doesn't matter if you and 2 of your friends(the majority of mmo gamers) like sandboxes more. 

     

     

  • PepeqPepeq Poway, CAPosts: 1,487Member Uncommon

    Why quest hubs exist...

     

    From AA CBT3 chat:

    Player:  "I just turned in my quest and there are no more in my log.  It doesn't tell me where to go.  Where can I get more quests?"

    Response:  "Just follow any road, you'll find more quests to do."

     

    The question isn't whether devs have learned their lesson yet, it's whether we have learned the lesson yet.  Some are still learning.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,996Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    Or are we going to see some more $40 million dollar MMO's splash and crash?

    I mean, they've had like 10 years worth of examples.  One would think they'd learn.

    40M$? AoC already was twice that and it ain't getting cheaper to make MMOs.

    But just blaming questhubs isn't fair, far too many games just feels like people played them before and just don't give enough reasons to change to them from the games people already play.

    Combat are often similar, stats and trait mechanics, skills feels similar and so do group content. For a game that feels similar to beat the other games to take their players being just as good ain't enough, you need to be considerably better (or as good and a lot cheaper).

    Questhubs is just one of many things and if a MMO is very different in other ways it can work fine with keeping a few classic things. If, say combat and experience mechanics (like levels, skills and similar things) are very different (and fun) people will mostly not mind the questhubs because you spend way more time in combat anyways.

    The lesson is that if you want to do something others have already done you need to do it better, preferably a lot better.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,996Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Pepeq

    Why quest hubs exist...

    From AA CBT3 chat:

    Player:  "I just turned in my quest and there are no more in my log.  It doesn't tell me where to go.  Where can I get more quests?"

    Response:  "Just follow any road, you'll find more quests to do."

    The question isn't whether devs have learned their lesson yet, it's whether we have learned the lesson yet.  Some are still learning.

    GW2 had the same problem. Funny thing is that when most people actually do start exploring a game they tend to enjoy it a lot more then always being told where to go but they need to take that first step.

  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by DMKano

    When was the last time we've even had a $40mil MMO - every AAA MMORPG recently has been more than double that. 

         So true.. but the thing is.. Why does it cost $40 million plus to begin with..  Give me a staff of 100 full time employees, that will suck up $6 million/yr and another $100k/yr for Admin/Overhead cost, and $1 million for building location..  There is NO REASON to spend more then $35 million (5 year span) to produce a AAA game..  But then if you set up shop in a HIGH cost of living area like San Diego, no wonder it cost so much..  How about these gaming companies set up shop in West Virginia, and save half their budget..

    What was the last MMO that you created that you are basing this on? 

     

    On the studio location thing, if you're working on a project that is going to take 3-5 years to create and then remain updated for (hopefully) five or more years beyond that, you're going to want to have access to talent, both to expand and to replace existing. That's why most studios set up near big cities and tech schools. If the talent isn't local, you have to bring it in, and you can only do so if people are willing to go there. That's why places like Charlotte, NC - a city with higher than US average salaries and lower than US average cost of living - is not a hotbed of game development and why Seattle is one of the places to be for game development. In Bumblefudge, WV, you're going to have to offer higher salaries and pay a decent bit for relocation or you're going to have to settle for whatever you can get in talent. 

     

     

          As with real estate.. only 3 things matter.. Location, Location and Location..  and computer science isn't an area that requires geographical locations to thrive..  Why do you think the rust belt is drying up and most auto companies are going south?  You think it's because only the south knows how to build cars?  NO..  In fact the #1 school in the nation for computer science is in Pittsburg ( a stones throw to WV ).. Then you have U of M and Purdue in the top schools as well.. and Ohio State is nothing to laugh at either..  West Coast isn't the only location to find good talent.. 

         BTW,, computer gaming isn't rocket science either.. It doesn't take a M I T graduate to do simple gaming code.. In case you are not aware, many peons that create the games you see today are only temporary contract workers that quickly lose their jobs when the game goes LIVE..  So it's either find a new job somewhere else, or work at Walmart or go sell used cars.. People will go where the work is, and if that job is in Iowa, time to pack up the SUV.. lol

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Rydeson
    Originally posted by DMKano

    When was the last time we've even had a $40mil MMO - every AAA MMORPG recently has been more than double that. 

         So true.. but the thing is.. Why does it cost $40 million plus to begin with..  Give me a staff of 100 full time employees, that will suck up $6 million/yr and another $100k/yr for Admin/Overhead cost, and $1 million for building location..  There is NO REASON to spend more then $35 million (5 year span) to produce a AAA game..  But then if you set up shop in a HIGH cost of living area like San Diego, no wonder it cost so much..  How about these gaming companies set up shop in West Virginia, and save half their budget..

    What was the last MMO that you created that you are basing this on? 

     

    On the studio location thing, if you're working on a project that is going to take 3-5 years to create and then remain updated for (hopefully) five or more years beyond that, you're going to want to have access to talent, both to expand and to replace existing. That's why most studios set up near big cities and tech schools. If the talent isn't local, you have to bring it in, and you can only do so if people are willing to go there. That's why places like Charlotte, NC - a city with higher than US average salaries and lower than US average cost of living - is not a hotbed of game development and why Seattle is one of the places to be for game development. In Bumblefudge, WV, you're going to have to offer higher salaries and pay a decent bit for relocation or you're going to have to settle for whatever you can get in talent. 

     

     

          As with real estate.. only 3 things matter.. Location, Location and Location..  and computer science isn't an area that requires geographical locations to thrive..  Why do you think the rust belt is drying up and most auto companies are going south?  You think it's because only the south knows how to build cars?  NO..  In fact the #1 school in the nation for computer science is in Pittsburg ( a stones throw to WV ).. Then you have U of M and Purdue in the top schools as well.. and Ohio State is nothing to laugh at either..  West Coast isn't the only location to find good talent.. 

         BTW,, computer gaming isn't rocket science either.. It doesn't take a M I T graduate to do simple gaming code.. In case you are not aware, many peons that create the games you see today are only temporary contract workers that quickly lose their jobs when the game goes LIVE..  So it's either find a new job somewhere else, or work at Walmart or go sell used cars.. People will go where the work is, and if that job is in Iowa, time to pack up the SUV.. lol

     

    "Computer Science" depends on geographic location to survive.  Any large IT department is going to have a large number of people in house, not spread out all over the country or the world.  It's just much more efficient to have them in one place.  Even the bits that are outsourced are generally outsourced to a single place.  There are also differences in infrastructure in different cities that matter too.  If both of these things were not true, any large corporation would be completely stupid to not move their IT departments en mass to somewhere in Kentucky or West Virginia where the land and offices would be really cheap.  They can't do that because they would need people to move there, and because they need a minimum infrastructure for their IT department to function and a good infrastructure for it to function well.

     

    Actually, there are places where hiring for IT jobs is "hot", and places where it's not.  Raleigh, N.C. right now is a place with a lot of IT people.  St. Petersburg, Florida, not so much.  In Raleigh, a developer could hire people for a lower wage because there is going to be more competition for the jobs, but also a larger pool of people to take those jobs.  In St. Pete, the developer is going to have to lure people away from existing jobs that they've probably held for a while to a job that is going to be temporary, or get people to move to St. Pete to a job that is in all likelihood going to be temporary.

     

    Loktofelt's question still stands though.  What MMORPG or even game have you written where you can compare the experience you have with what other MMORPG or game developers are doing?  I can draw on my corporate IT experience to know that location definitely matters.  You can't just up and move anywhere you want, any time you want.  I'll let the people who are actually in the gaming industry speak to the whole "writing games is easy" bit.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,668Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Pepeq

    Why quest hubs exist...

    From AA CBT3 chat:

    Player:  "I just turned in my quest and there are no more in my log.  It doesn't tell me where to go.  Where can I get more quests?"

    Response:  "Just follow any road, you'll find more quests to do."

    The question isn't whether devs have learned their lesson yet, it's whether we have learned the lesson yet.  Some are still learning.

    GW2 had the same problem. Funny thing is that when most people actually do start exploring a game they tend to enjoy it a lot more then always being told where to go but they need to take that first step.

    Maybe the solution is in mechanics that lead characters to content if they have gone x amount of time without engaging in certain things. For example, if a player hasn't taken a quest or tripped a quest trigger in a certain amount of time, have something that directly or indirectly gets their attention and brings them to content. The most obvious way to do it would be to have an NPC come running out of nowhere pleading for the player's aid, but there are a plenty of less in-your-face ways to go about it. 

    - animals that dart out and travel in the direction of content

    - rustling or moving patches of foliage between the player and content

    - a device or skill the player has that locates content (a magic gem that senses danger, a meter that detects a type of activity, a premonition skill, etc)

    The discovery of content can become a rewarding game in itself. 

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • CleffyCleffy San Diego, CAPosts: 4,624Member Uncommon
    pft quest hubs. That was so 2 years ago. Now its simply a menu that has all the possible quests you can do, and you accept them then and there. No chasing down NPCs.
  • TimzillaTimzilla Ramona, CAPosts: 437Member
    I like the hand holding experience of theme park quest hubs more than the press e to breathe in and o to breathe out experience of sand boxes.
  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,253Member

    There is a pretty big difference between having zones and having quest hubs. Vanilla WoW had a mix of quest hubs and free forming quests and someone who really knew what they were doing could level almost twice as fast by coming up with efficient paths.

    Current WoW you are a mindless robot on rails being fed from one hub to the next.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon

    How did I miss this thread. I sure hope so. Quest hubs can die a horrible death. Much hate for them. They ruined Vanguard, IMO, and after two weeks of doing them I was like wtf; I'm sick of being led around by the nose and trying to coordinate quest b.s. with dozens of people. I wasn't connecting to the world around me at all; just connecting with the quest NPCs and the quest compass. And I hated that once I stopped doing quests, my xp and loots dropped to almost nothing.


    QUEST HUBS SUCK !!!!!

    DIE

    DIE

    DIE


    Characters shouldn't have to be led to content. The content should, in itself, be rewarding both mentally, visually, and financially; such that players will seek it out.


    Originally posted by fivoroth
    No quests means no story. Could you quest hating folk gives an example of an alternative? Stop saying you don't want quest hubs. What do you want? Please don't tell me you want us to go back to the 90s where mob grinding was the norm. Cause that's even more simplistic and certainly more boring.


    Everquest had no quest hubs and had among the richest lore of any game.

    Regarding failed quest hub games, I can only speak to the ones I've played:
    1. Vanguard
    2. Pirates of the Burning Sea

    Maybe other quest hub games are somehow more interesting; but I doubt it. Same shit, different day, I'm guessing. Maybe SWTOR is doing ok now; never underestimate the power of advertising and an easily recognizable IP.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • bigenokiheadbigenokihead Houston, TXPosts: 5Member
    Originally posted by Cleffy
    pft quest hubs. That was so 2 years ago. Now its simply a menu that has all the possible quests you can do, and you accept them then and there. No chasing down NPCs.

    I actually love quest hubs. They remind me of D&D. I hate lists. I love looking for people.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Arclan


    Everquest had no quest hubs and had among the richest lore of any game.

    re somehow more interesting; but I doubt it. Same shit, different day, I'm guessing. Maybe SWTOR is doing ok now; never underestimate the power of advertising and an easily recognizable IP.

    LOL .. richest lore? And yet, what people talk about in game? "camp check", "hey, it is my turn", "train .... train ... train ....", "can you power level me?".

    If doing ok, you mean by making more than $200M in 2013, and yest, TOR is doing ok ... probably more ok than many many other games.

     

  • LudwikLudwik Rochester, NYPosts: 401Member Uncommon
    Quest hubs are great.

    Some days you just want to lay back, relax and grind away on some silly pointless tasks.

    Not everyone is looking to be challenged all the time when they sit down to play.
  • PepeqPepeq Poway, CAPosts: 1,487Member Uncommon

    Picture this...

    You're invited to a beta test.  You log in, create your character, choose your server, select a class.  You hit start...

     

    You find yourself in the middle of no where with a bunch of other folks.  No buildings, no mailboxes, no banks, no nothing.  You hit the map key and it shows you nothing because you haven't discovered anything yet.  You look at the skills bar and there is only one skill.  You can't attack players.  There are no wandering NPCs or mobs to be seen anywhere.

     

    What do you do?

     

    1.  Log off.

    2.  Wander around a bit and realize there is nothing out there to see or do and then log off.

    3.  Start Chuck Norris jokes in chat.

    4.  Other (Explain.  Remember you only have your one weapon and one skill, you can't gather or farm or build anything at this point.  What would you do?)

     

    90% would log off, 5% would wander around a bit, 2% would troll chat, and 3% would find a game without questing refreshing.

  • jordanbraxtonjordanbraxton austin, TXPosts: 8Member
    nah quest hubs are like paradise :)
  • dannydevitodannydevito New York, NYPosts: 5Member
    played some korean games that has this! quest hubs are great for lazy and non reading people
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