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The trinity may not be outdated, but perhaps the roles are

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  • AeanderAeander Walker, LAPosts: 522Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Aeander
    What I've been advocating this whole time is really a three-style MMO genre. 

     

    1) The Traditional Trinity in all of its slight variations. Still has a place and will no doubt continue to have games built around it.

    2) The non-trinity/soft-trinity, which shows promise but is still taking its baby steps and needs to evolve. The key here is going to be making classes specialized, not generalized, with tons of diverse builds. This is for players that want greater personal responsibility and desire to contribute all roles to their team.

    3) The 'evolved' trinity - Blocker, Control/Debuff, Support as laid out in paper here. This is for players who want a more "realistic," active version of the traditional trinity with greater room for error.


    While I would love to see this, you have to remember that almost every major developer and publisher still look at WoW numbers with their eyes. Dividing the genre up like this divides up the playerbase, too. I just don't see this happening anytime soon.

     

    There are also other ways to divide the genre up, instead of constantly trying to make the "one MMO fits all" formula work, when it does not. PvP/PvE/Both, Sandbox/Themepark/Themebox, Single Player Story Driven/Massive Players Interacting Online, Massive Instancing/Open World, and other differences that could be easily seprarted out instead of mashed together.

     

    That's an unfortunate reality, and it's one that, in practice, doesn't make much financial sense. Most  MMO deaths (when not caused by outright bad game design or lack of developer support) are the result of a profound failure to find their own piece of the playerbase pie. 

     

    I do think that developers are starting to figure out the need for diversity in this genre of WoW-clones, but that's slow going. Really unfortunate, given that with just basic combinations of 3-trinity styles, 2 combat systems, and every style you have listed, the genre could well have dozens of successful, diverse titles. And it would have players enough for all of them, I think.

     

    Instead, most of the MMO playerbase is clumped into WoW and Lineage 1 with a few more (popular) niche MMOs taking most of the non-WoW player slots.

  • KaronT3KaronT3 Las rosas rojasPosts: 9Member
    After playing diferents games, as WOW, Rift, Aion, Guild ars 1 and 2, and a lot more, i can say i prefer trinity forever, Guild Wars 2 instances were a really headache  even with a group with different classes. I have to say that nothing like Wow and Rift for an enjoyable instances and raids, really funny, and not allways easy....Sorry for my english
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    While I would love to see this, you have to remember that almost every major developer and publisher still look at WoW numbers with their eyes. Dividing the genre up like this divides up the playerbase, too. I just don't see this happening anytime soon.

     

    Do they? Or do they look at LoL and WoT numbers, and don't even bother with traditional MMORPGs.

     

  • AeanderAeander Walker, LAPosts: 522Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    While I would love to see this, you have to remember that almost every major developer and publisher still look at WoW numbers with their eyes. Dividing the genre up like this divides up the playerbase, too. I just don't see this happening anytime soon.

     

    Do they? Or do they look at LoL and WoT numbers, and don't even bother with traditional MMORPGs.

     

     

    If you're complaining about the influx of new MOBA/ARTS titles like LoL, you do realize that you are comparing a genre that takes approximately 5 years to develop a new game of real quality (the MMO genre) to a genre that is young and only requires 1 map, a few dozen items that you don't even need to visualize on the characters, and approximately 30 characters to be successful.

     

    MOBA/ARTS titles require only a fraction of the resources and development time of a full MMO. It should be no wonder why they are starting to pop up more quickly, and that isn't stopping dozens of (mostly underwhelming) new MMO titles from popping up. 

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Aeander

    MOBA/ARTS titles require only a fraction of the resources and development time of a full MMO. It should be no wonder why they are starting to pop up more quickly, and that isn't stopping dozens of (mostly underwhelming) new MMO titles from popping up. 

    More reason to abandon traditional MMO and goes for MOBA, card games, instanced pve/pvp games. Smaller investment, bigger return. Less things (like balancing both pve and pvp) to worry about.

     

  • AeanderAeander Walker, LAPosts: 522Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Aeander

    MOBA/ARTS titles require only a fraction of the resources and development time of a full MMO. It should be no wonder why they are starting to pop up more quickly, and that isn't stopping dozens of (mostly underwhelming) new MMO titles from popping up. 

    More reason to abandon traditional MMO and goes for MOBA, card games, instanced pve/pvp games. Smaller investment, bigger return. Less things (like balancing both pve and pvp) to worry about.

     

     

    See, the thing about MMOs is that they aren't about progression, story, PvP, or any of that. First and foremost, MMOs are about social interactions. A good MMO is one that can encourage these interactions, and MMOs will always have a market so long as players wish to socialize in a persistent setting.

    MOBAs are not terribly different from the PvP arena of a standard MMO, but they cannot and will not replace the persistent social aspects of the MMO genre. 

     

    That said, I would be highly interested in seeing a new MOBA appear that utilizes MMO-style character creation, customization, and build-customization. That would be a fascinating harmony between the two genres and it would have great potential. Of course, the opposite could also occur to equally great fanfare - a MMO with a quality MOBA-style PvP format. 

  • Ender4Ender4 milwaukee, WIPosts: 2,253Member

    The trinity was never an issue, the nature of tank and spank was an issue but that is not strictly a problem of the trinity just of how it is executed.

  • loulakiloulaki PatrasPosts: 918Member
    Originally posted by Aeander
    Originally posted by loulaki

    anyway i want to say that i would like to see roles inspired by real warfare and not those childish fantasies.

     

    "Childish" fantasies?

    Seems to me like you grossly under-credit the value of fantasy. Fantasy doesn't deny reality. It reflects it and comments on it. In fantasy, we see reflections of real-world politics, religion, and, in the best fantasy novels, often human nature in its many forms. Yes, it bends the rules and creates a new setting, but the ability of a fantasy writer to do so while still immersing their readers in something so foreign to their physical surroundings is nothing short of incredible. 

    And roles inspired by "childish" fantasy hold value. If they fit the setting and encourage teamwork through interesting means, it matters not what their inspiration is.

     

     

    i suggest you to go and check the Mound and Blade series, there is a huge mess around this IP and it's mechanics, imagine someone whould be able to polish this game in terms of graphics/animations, code it into an MMORPG and the spend a few bucks for advert. this game would nail down all the other action combat games, and it doesnt have any magic or spell or exotic tribes and gods blessing your character in special quests...

     

    i don't undervalue fantasy, i love sci-fi, and i love the imagination to spin off, i am just tired of the theme human/orc/elf and paladin/berserker/hawkeye/priest etc ... i am already bored from this specific trope ...

    image

  • AeanderAeander Walker, LAPosts: 522Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by loulaki
    Originally posted by Aeander
    Originally posted by loulaki

    anyway i want to say that i would like to see roles inspired by real warfare and not those childish fantasies.

     

    "Childish" fantasies?

    Seems to me like you grossly under-credit the value of fantasy. Fantasy doesn't deny reality. It reflects it and comments on it. In fantasy, we see reflections of real-world politics, religion, and, in the best fantasy novels, often human nature in its many forms. Yes, it bends the rules and creates a new setting, but the ability of a fantasy writer to do so while still immersing their readers in something so foreign to their physical surroundings is nothing short of incredible. 

    And roles inspired by "childish" fantasy hold value. If they fit the setting and encourage teamwork through interesting means, it matters not what their inspiration is.

     

     

    i don't undervalue fantasy, i love sci-fi, and i love the imagination to spin off, i am just tired of the theme human/orc/elf and paladin/berserker/hawkeye/priest etc ... i am already bored from this specific trope ...

     

    I do admit that there is a profound lack of creativity in designing fantasy races and classes. We typically don't even get MMOs and RPG's that utilize lesser-known fantasy and folklore races, much less invent their own. 

     

    As for classes, I find that the issue is less that the genre overuses the standard pally/warrior/ranger/etc. setup than it is that they have a lack of creativity in defining what these classes are. It's so easy to say "a ranger is a guy who uses bows," and you'll often find that players rebel against the idea that they can do otherwise. But, first and foremost, a class is what a developer defines them as, and I'd like to see a lot more flexibility and variety in how the classics are defined.

     

    That said, some rarer oddball classes like chronomancer, dancer, and artist or paint wizard might a real breath of fresh air. 

  • aldav991aldav991 Manhattan, NYPosts: 5Member
    I currently loving MMO concepts that delve into shooter archetypes, games with TF2 ideas, Engineers, Spies, and the like. Maybe that's where inspiration for new roles lie.
  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon

    You all seem to think taunt must be verbal. Taunt could be any action which provokes the enemy into attacking you.


    1. Making a really annoying sound or silly face (lol, might work for some)
    2. Feigning injury or vulnerability.
    3. Physically blocking or pushing the enemy


    What's so unbelievable about that?

    And since my football analogy went over so well, how about actual combat? Tanks (front line troops), wizards (artillery), CC (air power), Healer (medics). You also have transport/evac (ships).

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

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