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Interesting feedback on SotA combat system

Aragon100Aragon100 OsloPosts: 2,224Member Uncommon

 

AdamZax over at SotA forums gave this balanced feedback on SotA combat system -

https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/my-card-combat-feedback-and-suggestions.13383/#post-222200

 

 

Alright, having given the card combat system a fair test over the weekend, I want to provide my feedback. I tested out combat against animals/monsters, against players in 1v1, small group fights (2v2 or 3v3) and just free for all chaos (attacking everyone I saw and being attacked by everyone I saw).


I died a lot, I killed a few people, and I got a good grasp of how the system works and what I will be capable of doing with it.

I spent most of my combat time with 2-5 of my guild mates, none of whom participate in these official forums yet (but I am trying to convince them to start), but all of whom fully agreed with my assessment of the system, so take that how you will.

Unlike quite a lot of people I saw and fought, I didn't just pick the most powerful combinations and fully developed trees. I wanted to try out different play styles and different combinations of skills and see how they work within the system, rather than just going for easy kills. I suspect that a number of the people who absolutely love this system did not apply the same mindset to testing, but I digress.

I will list what I liked about the system, what I didn't like about the system, and my suggestions for making the system better.

What I liked

Variety of skills.
In looking at the trees, it looks like there will be a good variety of skills to play with and develop a character with. It looks as though the game wants to allow a good mix of play styles and encourage many unique types of characters. I am looking forward to seeing a minimum of 'cookie cutter' builds and it seems like the variety of magic alone will achieve that.

Combat pacing.
So far the pacing of combat looks like it will be about right. Not too fast with a bunch of instant death that you don't see coming, and not long and drawn out to the point of becoming boring. It seemed like the average 1v1 fight was taking maybe around 45-60 seconds on average, which seems like a good time to me. That of course changes and will change as people get used to moving around and kiting and such.

The system worked smoothly. 
Regardless of what I think of the mechanic, it did work smoothly and as it was supposed to. It was hard to visualize earlier how it would look once it was implemented, and it exceeded my expectations in that it was pretty straight forward to use and I didn't encounter any hiccups as far as bugs or anything not working how it should.


What I didn't like

As a direct counter to my positive comment about variety, this system actively discourages it. 
There is no reason to make a diverse and interesting character type in this system. You are actively punished for diversifying your skill set in a few different ways: 

The more skills you add into your deck, the less likely you become to draw any of them. If they are anything other than offensive skills, then you not only become less likely to draw them, but less likely to draw them at a time that you actually can use them or need them.

 

The common rebuttal to this has been to just lock in a few skills that you want available, but again, you are punished for this by paying extra focus to use them, and by those skills taking up hand slots. This also only works out well if you have just a few skills you want available (like a single heal). What if I want to play a character that has a lot of utility spells, or a character that switches between bow and sword depending on distance of his enemy? In that case I can not rely on the random draw to give me the skills I need for the situation, so I might as well lock in the majority of my skills. This punishes me by paying extra focus, and being limited to only the amount of skills available as my max hand size, instead of the 20+ I could be rotating through in an unlocked deck.

 

If you choose to build different decks with different skills in each -ranged and melee for example- and try to swap them out during combat, you are punished by paying extra focus skill points to swap more efficiently. It also gives you a time delay where you are swapping instead of doing damage to your enemy. Even if the time delay is small, you are still at a disadvantage compared to someone with a narrowly focused offense deck that can just keep hitting you. Even with a quick deck swap, you get access to different skills, but are still subjected to the randomness and hope you get something to make the swap worth it, or use locked skills and pay extra focus for them.

 

The system actively punishes those who want to diversify and rewards those who stick with a very narrowly focused character, specifically, a character that is nearly all offensive skills because those are the only ones you can rely on being useful no matter when you draw them. You can 'get around' the system with locked skills or deck swapping but you pay a cost to do so, whereas someone with a narrow focus can easily be more effective and more efficient at combat. 


The random draw system makes no intuitive sense.
This system makes no sense to anyone that has not followed the conversations on the forums and read all the dev posts. My guild members, who do not follow the forums, were taken by complete surprise with this new system. That in itself is fine, if they can reasonably figure it out on their own, after all, that is exactly what any new player would do when the game is released. The system should make enough sense that someone can figure it out. Currently it does not. 
Common questions I answered multiple times as I helped my members get set up:
"Why can't I use this skill when I want to after I learned it?"
"Why won't this skill show up when i'm fighting?"
"Why do I keep getting melee skills when i'm nowhere near them? I need a ranged skill"
"How do I make <insert context specific skill here, heal, coup de grace, etc> show up when I can actually use it?"
"Why do my skills show up randomly in different slots? How do I make them show up in the same slot so I can remember where they are?"
"Why do I have to pay extra to use a skill when I want to instead of when the computer tells me to?"

The case of context specific skills is probably the most dramatic example of this system making no sense. The computer will happily deal out skills to your hand that you can not use. Ranged skills when you are in melee, melee skills when you are at range, healing spells when you are full health, coup de grace when your opponent is full health, etc.

When you are 50 yards away from someone and they are at full health and you are dealt a coup de grace skill, it simply makes NO SENSE to have that card at that time. No reasonable person would grab that skill, at that time, yet the random system will deal it to you, and expect you to 'use what you are given'. This is supposed to make the game somehow more strategic, or more tactical?


It makes no Logical Sense.
This is perhaps my biggest pet peeve with the system. It simply makes no logical sense. It is inconsistent with the rest of the world and the rest of the game systems that are in place, as well as being completely inconsistent with reality.

Crafting is a logical process. This material plus this material makes this item. This item plus this item makes this weapon. Its a progression that you can reason out and apply logic to and have positive results.

The conversation system is a logical process. You initiate a conversation with an NPC. They will reply to you based on the questions you ask them, and give you information based on certain keywords that you want to know. You can use reason to ask the right questions to lead to answers that you want to know.

The combat system is a completely illogical process. You learn skills, but have limited or no control over how they are used. You choose skills for a certain situation, but may not actually draw them for that situation. You invest heavily into mastering fireball, but cant actually choose to cast fireball when you want to. The game dictates to you what skills you can use and when, regardless of your mastery of them. There is nothing logical, realistic, or tactical about not being able to use a skill that you are a master of at your discretion. It's like telling a boxer he can only use his Jab when the referee touches his nose. So instead of watching his opponent and using his fighting skills, he is watching for the referee to touch his nose, throws the jab once, and goes back to watching the referee for another signal.

It quite simply makes no sense and is not a system that you can reason your way to your desired results. In order to achieve your results you need to stack the odds in your favor with more copies of the skill, in which case the odds are in your favor but still out of your control. Or you lock them in and be punished for it, as discussed above.

It is distracting
This has already been mentioned many times so I won't beat it to death too much, but having to sit and watch the hotbar is distracting and immersion breaking. Even after getting to know the icons, you still have to watch the bar to see where they will pop up so you can hit the right key. Or if you fill your deck with just offense skills, you can just spam whatever keys you want. Anyone with a variety of skills or spells in their deck will be stuck watching the bar though in order to know when to cast and what to press. It distracts from the combat rather than immersing you in it.


My Suggestions to Make it Better

I don't believe in complaining without offering a solution, and the devs seem to have made it pretty clear that this system is here to stay regardless, so the following is my suggestion for modifying this system to something that I think would solve at least some of the problems I discussed above.

I think that the core of the problems above is the complete randomness of the draws.

I have suggested it elsewhere but I will explain it again. We need different hands.

How it would look:

Have an 'offense' hand and a 'defense/utility' hand. The interface would look almost exactly the same. You enter combat, and the hotbar pops up. Instead of one hotbar in the centre of the screen, you now have 2 hotbars, one offset left, one offset right. Set the max hand size for each one to 5 or 6 or whatever, instead of the 10 that we have now, so that the screen isn't too cluttered.

Keep the current system of dealing out a random rotation of cards, but have them sorted into their respective category now instead of all going into the same bar.
So on the offense side, a mage may get dealt fireball, fire arrow, fireball, searing ray .... while on the defense side, at the same time, he is being dealt root, heal, gust, fire elemental, douse... etc.

You could still have just the single deck, no need to complicate things and have separate offense or defense decks for this change. Splitting the hotbar into 2 parts would be a simple change and allow more variety and larger number of cards in one's deck. 

What would this change fix?

This simple little change would fix a lot of the problems caused by the random draw system, while still in keeping with the intended spirit of the system.

You still have your random draw and rotation, modified by the focus skills. 
You still have the 'chaos' and unpredictability of combat' that many feel is a must.
You still have the 'new and innovative' feeling, instead of a traditional static hotbar system.

However, with this small change, you gain the following benefits:
- You can add a much larger variety of spells and skills to your deck, and have a more reasonable chance of using them when you get them.
Since you will always be rotating through some defense and utility skills, and always rotating through some offense skills at the same time. So you don't have to worry about getting a defense skill at a bad time that you need offense, and you don't need to worry about getting a fireball at a bad time when you need a heal. They are in separate hands.

- You gain much more tactical options, by having some offense and defense/utility skills available at any given time, you have more choice in how your combat goes. You can choose to play a defense skill, or go in for the kill, rather than being forced strictly into what the game has dealt you.
Keeping in mind that you still are at the mercy of the RNG for exactly what skills you will have in each hand, so there is still the chaotic aspect to it, and making the best of the skills you are dealt. This just dials back the randomness to a more acceptable and slightly more realistic level.

- It makes it easier to remember your hotkeys, as hotkeys 1-5 would always be offense, and 6-0 would be defense, for example. The skills would still change places in those keys, but at least you would have some level of consistency.

- It opens up more options for mixing and matching skills and play styles, and it opens up more options for the much anticipated combos! Not only can you combo your offensive abilities like they had planned, but maybe now we could get some options of combos that mix offense and defense skills in creative ways. Playing both hands effectively could add some depth to combat and open up a lot of possibilities for both the players and the devs.


In Conclusion

The system as it is right now is not fun, and makes very little sense. It is easily one of the worst combat mechanics I personally have ever played.

However, I see some potential for keeping in the spirit of the system while making some easy changes that can dial it back to a more reasonable level, while opening up a lot of opportunities for various play styles.

Thanks

Comments

  • acidbloodacidblood melbournePosts: 265Member Uncommon
    Yep, sounds like it has exactly the problems I expected... still, early days and all that, looking forward to seeing where they take it.
  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,908Member Uncommon

    Over the weekend...was kinda of key to me, the guy makes a bunch of conclusions after a weekend of play, beside the point of telling me over and over again how I'll feel.

    "It doesn't make sense to me." seemed to be the overarching theme of his critique. Could just be a matter of he needed to spend more time with it and learn the ins and outs, as it sounds like it's something quite different than normal, which is bound to feel illogical when you are conditioned to play as we are.

    I'd have to try it, it sounds really interesting to me. Yet maybe he makes a good point...hard to say without seeing it and experiencing it.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • blythegablythega SydneyPosts: 145Member Uncommon

    My eyes are bleeding from the wall of text however I tend t agree with the OP. However, it was a test to obtain player feedback and allow the devs to examine the very issues you have highlighted.

    So. Based on that the process appears to be working as you have provided not only a balanced review but a suggestion on how to improve things.

    Let's see how they improve things for the next iteration.

     

     

  • MMOredfalconMMOredfalcon Mitchell, ONPosts: 132Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Distopia

    Over the weekend...was kinda of key to me, the guy makes a bunch of conclusions after a weekend of play, beside the point of telling me over and over again how I'll feel.

    "It doesn't make sense to me." seemed to be the overarching theme of his critique. Could just be a matter of he needed to spend more time with it and learn the ins and outs, as it sounds like it's something quite different than normal, which is bound to feel illogical when you are conditioned to play as we are.

    I'd have to try it, it sounds really interesting to me. Yet maybe he makes a good point...hard to say without seeing it and experiencing it.

     First off...we only have a weekend here and there to test and assess different aspects of the game.  And th OP is absolutely right. The combat system makes little sence. I for one was concentrating on archery with some melee skills. Well what good is it when I go into combat using the bow, and only my dodge melee skills pop up. And once the enemy is near I am getting all blanks and archery skills.

    In some ways, it can work. In a group if a players focus is totally on archery, or tank, one can build up a deck just for that. But there is no way of knowing what skill or when a skill you want will pop up.  Like a healer class, who can't heal because all the wrong cards are popping up for him. Or a tank who can't tank because he gets a wack of dodge or parry skills comming up and no useful combat hits.

    The combat system is about the worst I have ever seen in over 20 years of gaming. It is the breaker for me. Some may like it, but I think the majority will not enjoy it so much. We'll see if it is improved over time. The Devs of this game have been good at listening to the players concerns, so we may find a happy medium.

  • jtripperjtripper Santa Monica, CAPosts: 74Member Uncommon

    The OP makes some good points but it's the same one made repeatedly on the forums:  they can't deal with the randomness (pun fully intended).  :)

     

    There have been similar suggestions on having multiple hotbars or split hotbars that deal from multiple decks.  That's actually something I can see happening.  It's likely they'll start with splitting the hotbar in two and dealing from two decks that you've equipped.  I think that will mitigate some of randomness but will never negate it completely, nor will it mitigate the amount of "plate spinning" as it's been called.

     

    In regards to the focus penalties for locked skills or the fully locked option (so it acts jut like any MMO hotbar), those are temporary and will be reduced as stated by the devs.  They said it's high now just for testing purposes.  I also think the deck swap penalty will also be reduced.

     

  • AztecAztec Torrington, CTPosts: 101Member
    I have to agree with the OP here that the random card system makes no sense at all and it just makes for confusing battles. The most important part is that it is annoying and not fun. It is also hard to tell whether you even hit certain buttons or not as they are flashing and moving up and down rather quickly. Other than this one issue the game seems to be moving at a good pace and shows some promise.
  • superconductingsuperconducting Rochester, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aragon100

    The system as it is right now is not fun, and makes very little sense. It is easily one of the worst combat mechanics I personally have ever played.

    ^^ This.

    I never even tried release 8 and I could tell from the video how crappy the combat system was. Anybody who thinks this combat is good by any means is simply delusional.

    Who the heck wakes up in the morning and says-- I DON'T WANT the ability able to cast spell X when I want. Instead, I want to make a random pick from a deck of cards and see what happens. Ridiculous!

    WHOLE SYSTEM needs to be overhauled.

    image
  • Violation419Violation419 Bucyrus, OHPosts: 9Member
    Originally posted by Aragon100

     In Conclusion


    The system as it is right now is not fun, and makes very little sense. It is easily one of the worst combat mechanics I personally have ever played.

    However, I see some potential for keeping in the spirit of the system while making some easy changes that can dial it back to a more reasonable level, while opening up a lot of opportunities for various play styles.

    Thanks

    I took the time to read a bit of your post but the wall of text just plain hurt me so I couldn't get through it... that said.

    I've spent a fair amount of time (about 100 hours) in combat with this system and I've tested far more of it than most... I can tell you that as it sits now it is GREAT.  Here is what I don't understand about the complaints:

     

    The current combat system allows you to have FULLY LOCKED and usable skills... noble slots is what they're calling them.  The best format I found for melee combat was a fully locked skill bar.

    The current combat system allows you to hybrid lock and randomize your skills... The best format I found for group play was a medium ranged heal with a rez locked... and all the damage cards I had on random as a caster.  I'm used to playing ranged caster/mage so this just came easier to me (played a mage in UO for 3 years, played a necro mage in UO for 3 years, played a spriest in WoW for 6+ years).  I loved this setup.

    The current combat system allows you to have FULLY RANDOMIZED and usable skills... chaos is what they call it!  If you watch any of the dev videos they say (notably Chris Spears, the lead Tech for the game, said he thought this in the last pvp video he did) that this will not be a desired play style for skilled and high quality gamers.

    If you want to abuse the system then join us in R9... beat the crap out of it... and remember: combos aren't in... skill progression isn't in... half the skills aren't in... no balancing has been done... it's a PRE-ALPHA RELEASE :)

    Cheers!

    When will we get a UO style game with WoW dated graphics... Please see "Shroud of the Avatar" :)

  • Aragon100Aragon100 OsloPosts: 2,224Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Violation419
    Originally posted by Aragon100

     In Conclusion


    The system as it is right now is not fun, and makes very little sense. It is easily one of the worst combat mechanics I personally have ever played.

    However, I see some potential for keeping in the spirit of the system while making some easy changes that can dial it back to a more reasonable level, while opening up a lot of opportunities for various play styles.

    Thanks

    I took the time to read a bit of your post but the wall of text just plain hurt me so I couldn't get through it... that said.

    I've spent a fair amount of time (about 100 hours) in combat with this system and I've tested far more of it than most... I can tell you that as it sits now it is GREAT.  Here is what I don't understand about the complaints:

     

    The current combat system allows you to have FULLY LOCKED and usable skills... noble slots is what they're calling them.  The best format I found for melee combat was a fully locked skill bar.

    The current combat system allows you to hybrid lock and randomize your skills... The best format I found for group play was a medium ranged heal with a rez locked... and all the damage cards I had on random as a caster.  I'm used to playing ranged caster/mage so this just came easier to me (played a mage in UO for 3 years, played a necro mage in UO for 3 years, played a spriest in WoW for 6+ years).  I loved this setup.

    The current combat system allows you to have FULLY RANDOMIZED and usable skills... chaos is what they call it!  If you watch any of the dev videos they say (notably Chris Spears, the lead Tech for the game, said he thought this in the last pvp video he did) that this will not be a desired play style for skilled and high quality gamers.

    If you want to abuse the system then join us in R9... beat the crap out of it... and remember: combos aren't in... skill progression isn't in... half the skills aren't in... no balancing has been done... it's a PRE-ALPHA RELEASE :)

    Cheers!

    Just one question - why didn't you mention the disadvantages you get by using these locked (noble) skills?

    [quote] Noble Skill - A noble skill is a skill which cannot be combined with any other skill. Some skills are always noble but some become noble for various reasons such as a skill being used on you or because the skill is in a locked slot. Noble skills will almost always have a higher cost of some kind. Example costs could be cooldown, reagent use, focus cost, etc.[/quote]

    https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/lets-talk-about-combat.4094/

    Using locked skills when combos arrives will put you in a major disadvantage against player's that use these random card (skill) combos since the locked skills wont have the same cooldown, reagent use and focus cost.

    And just imagine how much focus you will need to have on that hotbar with it's random combo card's popping up instead of actually watching the combat going on. I prefer watching the battle and try to read my opponent's instead of watching a hotbar with random card's popping up.

     

     

     

  • MERLIN_THE_GREATMERLIN_THE_GREAT conroe, TXPosts: 2Member
    Pre-Alpha...
  • MookzenMookzen NottinghamPosts: 18Member
    Game design so far up it's own ass that it proceeds due to seeing a glimmer of light on the other side, the shit that should have been on its way out during early brainstorming sessions is introduced into the system ass-backwards in such a way as to come right out of the mouth in a perverse spectacle of fundamentally misguided innovation.
  • superconductingsuperconducting Rochester, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mookzen
    Game design so far up it's own ass that it proceeds due to seeing a glimmer of light on the other side, the shit that should have been on its way out during early brainstorming sessions is introduced into the system ass-backwards in such a way as to come right out of the mouth in a perverse spectacle of fundamentally misguided innovation.

    Dude.... you've got a unique talent there.

    image
  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,119Member Uncommon
    Doesn't sound like fun to me, just going by the game's own description of the combat system.  Any game that punishes you for using skills when and how you want to use them  is not the game for me.  The more games "innovate" their combat, the more I miss EQ's combat system.  Today's MMORPGs are all about low skills counts / all skills being combat focused, forced combos, time to kills in the milliseconds, high stress twitching and no room for any mistakes at all and little if any ability to recover from mistakes.   All of these things make modern MMORPGs much less appealing to me.  If I wanted this crap, I'd be playing FPS or RTS or Platformers.

    image
  • spiritnhonorspiritnhonor Torrance, CAPosts: 6Member

    Test it yourself. This guy has had a problem with the deck system for a while, and posts it whenever he gets a chance.  Keep in mind you can set up a traditional locked toolbar.  However I would never use a traditional locked toolbar because the deck system is FAR SUPERIOR.  I have no problem getting the cards I need to show up.  In fact I have multiple glyphs that I need show up. 

    The deck system allows you to have mulitple attacks without cooldowns.  It takes a little bit of grey matter to set it up right.  However it isn't hard.  If you know you have a minimum of 20 cards you can put in the deck, and you have 9 slots for cards, and you have 5 copies of each skill... do you see where I'm going with that?  You will always have the skill you need, and more times than not you will have more than enough. 

    Keep in mind this game is still in development and things will change a bit.  They are testing still.  However I find the deck system fun and more powerful than the traditional locked toolbar with cool downs, and I was a huge critic of this system before I played it.  In fact I was one of the most loud mouthed critics on the SotA forums, and I made a 180 because the system WORKS and it is fun.

  • Aragon100Aragon100 OsloPosts: 2,224Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by spiritnhonor

    Test it yourself. This guy has had a problem with the deck system for a while, and posts it whenever he gets a chance.  Keep in mind you can set up a traditional locked toolbar.  However I would never use a traditional locked toolbar because the deck system is FAR SUPERIOR.  I have no problem getting the cards I need to show up.  In fact I have multiple glyphs that I need show up. 

    The deck system allows you to have mulitple attacks without cooldowns.  It takes a little bit of grey matter to set it up right.  However it isn't hard.  If you know you have a minimum of 20 cards you can put in the deck, and you have 9 slots for cards, and you have 5 copies of each skill... do you see where I'm going with that?  You will always have the skill you need, and more times than not you will have more than enough. 

    Keep in mind this game is still in development and things will change a bit.  They are testing still.  However I find the deck system fun and more powerful than the traditional locked toolbar with cool downs, and I was a huge critic of this system before I played it.  In fact I was one of the most loud mouthed critics on the SotA forums, and I made a 180 because the system WORKS and it is fun.

    It dont work and it is definetly not fun.

    Just about all veteran PvP players from old UO i talked to (and i know loads of them that was interested in the next UO) laugh at this combat system and claim it is a catastrophy and nothing they would put any time into.

    You should ask yourself if that kind of feedback from the old UO PvP players is something that will make this game a more successful one? A better PvP game?

    LOL, no, it will never become a successful PvP game.

  • nosavynadanosavynada Dallas, TXPosts: 3Member

    I quite frankly like the deck building aspect of combat.  It is new, I have tried it and like it.  It is unique and has a better fluidity to it and requires some different skill to be good at it.

    Note - there are many tastes in how to employ combat into a game.  And there are many who do not like the twitchy or fast changing dynamics most often seen in RTS and Action games.  Many do want the stress they want to relax and immerse.  I understand that and to a certain extent that is what I typically enjoy and do not like twitch games in general.  I think by launch there will be a happy alternative for those.  The majority of those are not going to be doing PVP so will be less handicapped by using a fixed or hybrid deck.

    The rest of this post is more in response to those who identify and PvP ers and are also of the variety to imply grave doom to success if their ideals are not met.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    I can also understand why some, particularly some pvp players would not like it.  It make it far more likely you will not be able to macro combat.  You can not program your Ub3r sequence and map it to a single button.  Further you can not sleepily participate in pvp or normal combat.  You have to decide if you use your focus now to heal rather than being able to use ideal moment to milk the best use out of the heal.  The timing can not be spot on with heals so your healer can boringly use an auto target and hit a particular heal and efficiently use his mana.

    There are all sorts of problems for those who are Ub3R only through scripts, macros, and a plethora of buttons on the screen.

    Those who will excel with this system are those who balance the right amount of particularly chosen skills / cards / glyphs and are actively watching their screen.  I means it will involve tactical tumbles, dodges, stepping away from action for your hand to rebuild / flush your available choices for better chance at getting something more useful at the moment not what L33t G1rl online posted for you and told you in what sequence to use them.

     

    At the same time I can understand that for some this will not be for them.  Either they may have a problem with seeing updates and responding quickly enough or some other reason they prefer a fixed tool bar.  That is fine but if you are PVP and you are only good because you have Naga 55th edition programmable mouse with macros, magnets for perfect balance and quick response time, your scripted interface from 3rd party programmers who can make you a uber minor deity (in your mind at least) with assistance only then frankly I look forward to meeting those who were always at the top of their game due to intellect and creativity and not mechanically assisted.

     

    For the "legions" of old hard core PVPers from the old UO who will stay away and the implied Uber damage to the success of this game.  You are in total a mere grain of sand when compared to the worldwide hordes of people that play deck building games and will in a significant percentages try and likely enjoy this game and be introduced to MMORPG many of them.  mass market far more profitable than a few items sold at higher price.

    I truly mean no disrespect to those who do not enjoy this but as with every MMORPG except UO which was the first good one, those who QQ in forums because of this or that not being there is tiresome and juvenile.  Give constructive feedback on why a mechanic or feature is not good and why it could be better and leave it at that, QQing and trying to imply threats with the real or imagined voice of the PVP community does not work and for many will automatically put you on ignore with future comments.

    Sincerely,

    Nosavynada

  • Aragon100Aragon100 OsloPosts: 2,224Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by noasavynada

    I quite frankly like the deck building aspect of combat.  It is new, I have tried it and like it.  It is unique and has a better fluidity to it and requires some different skill to be good at it.

    Note - there are many tastes in how to employ combat into a game.  And there are many who do not like the twitchy or fast changing dynamics most often seen in RTS and Action games.  Many do want the stress they want to relax and immerse.  I understand that and to a certain extent that is what I typically enjoy and do not like twitch games in general.  I think by launch there will be a happy alternative for those.  The majority of those are not going to be doing PVP so will be less handicapped by using a fixed or hybrid deck.

    The rest of this post is more in response to those who identify and PvP ers and are also of the variety to imply grave doom to success if their ideals are not met.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    I can also understand why some, particularly some pvp players would not like it.  It make it far more likely you will not be able to macro combat.  You can not program your Ub3r sequence and map it to a single button.  Further you can not sleepily participate in pvp or normal combat.  You have to decide if you use your focus now to heal rather than being able to use ideal moment to milk the best use out of the heal.  The timing can not be spot on with heals so your healer can boringly use an auto target and hit a particular heal and efficiently use his mana.

    There are all sorts of problems for those who are Ub3R only through scripts, macros, and a plethora of buttons on the screen.

    Those who will excel with this system are those who balance the right amount of particularly chosen skills / cards / glyphs and are actively watching their screen.  I means it will involve tactical tumbles, dodges, stepping away from action for your hand to rebuild / flush your available choices for better chance at getting something more useful at the moment not what L33t G1rl online posted for you and told you in what sequence to use them.

     

    At the same time I can understand that for some this will not be for them.  Either they may have a problem with seeing updates and responding quickly enough or some other reason they prefer a fixed tool bar.  That is fine but if you are PVP and you are only good because you have Naga 55th edition programmable mouse with macros, magnets for perfect balance and quick response time, your scripted interface from 3rd party programmers who can make you a uber minor deity (in your mind at least) with assistance only then frankly I look forward to meeting those who were always at the top of their game due to intellect and creativity and not mechanically assisted.

     

    For the "legions" of old hard core PVPers from the old UO who will stay away and the implied Uber damage to the success of this game.  You are in total a mere grain of sand when compared to the worldwide hordes of people that play deck building games and will in a significant percentages try and likely enjoy this game and be introduced to MMORPG many of them.  mass market far more profitable than a few items sold at higher price.

    I truly mean no disrespect to those who do not enjoy this but as with every MMORPG except UO which was the first good one, those who QQ in forums because of this or that not being there is tiresome and juvenile.  Give constructive feedback on why a mechanic or feature is not good and why it could be better and leave it at that, QQing and trying to imply threats with the real or imagined voice of the PVP community does not work and for many will automatically put you on ignore with future comments.

    Sincerely,

    Nosavynada

    It's good to add feedback from different players on the game and how it works at the moment. It is all very much constructive feedback but it seems not to reach someone like you.

    That is not qq-ing it is just feedback. Wether it is good or bad feedback is up to the one reading it.

    And i have to say it is interesting to read how certain you are on the numbers of potential hardcore PvP players there is arround and what they could have brought to SotA. Hardcore PvP players are so many more then you make up they are. There is today many, many really big games with full loot and hardcore PvP rules but none of them are even close to old UO.

    A hardcore version of SotA would have a huge positive effect on this game.

     

     

  • nosavynadanosavynada Dallas, TXPosts: 3Member
    "It's good to add feedback from different players on the game and how it works at the moment. It is all very much constructive feedback but it seems not to reach someone like you.

    That is not qq-ing it is just feedback. Wether it is good or bad feedback is up to the one reading it.

    And i have to say it is interesting to read how certain you are on the numbers of potential hardcore PvP players there is arround and what they could have brought to SotA. Hardcore PvP players are so many more then you make up they are. There is today many, many really big games with full loot and hardcore PvP rules but none of them are even close to old UO.

    A hardcore version of SotA would have a huge positive effect on this game."

     

    My point was aimed at the multitude of posts on this and other forums by the minority of PVP players who are also making the threats and prophesies of doom along with statements like ... if you say the deck system is better you are just wrong.

    No one has a wrong opinion on the matter.  It is their opinion.  PVP numbers are not insignificant  in the context of US / Euro gaming players but they have always been the minority, I know because I am a PVP person but I am not hard core.  I enjoy PVP and the challenges but I appreciate it being done wright.

    I would endorse full loot but as to server (PVP or shared but with PVP instance I am ok with either.  This song and dance and cycle of threats has been seen in game after game, starting after UO.  Those that went hard core PVP in the US and Europe have died.  Shadowbane for example, Age of Conan to some extent, and others.  EVE early on was aimed and went out of their way to protect "carebears" so that I and my friends who started Mercenary Frigates along with all the pirate groups had to leave.  These days all the stuff we did and aimed to get to for the excitement of PVP combat is a major focus in that game.

    The reality is also that there are significantly more people who play deck building card games and who if they learn of this mechanic will take a look at it when they might not otherwise be interested in an MMORPG.  Does that make it right, no again it is opinion and preference.  There are others who are MMORPG players who also like PVP who also enjoy deck building games who are intrigued by this concept and are now interested in the game where before it was not anywhere on their radars.

    I enjoy discussion and opinion.  I think threatening to leave and the multitudes of folks you represent who will leave also type comments are not helpful to their cause and quite frankly there are a number of good PVP games that hard core PVP folks especially like (most now in Asia) that they can enjoy more rather than angst over how this one is not shaping up to their personal view of how it should be.

    Thank you for your comments, and constructive comment.

  • Aragon100Aragon100 OsloPosts: 2,224Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by noasavynada
    "It's good to add feedback from different players on the game and how it works at the moment. It is all very much constructive feedback but it seems not to reach someone like you.

    That is not qq-ing it is just feedback. Wether it is good or bad feedback is up to the one reading it.

    And i have to say it is interesting to read how certain you are on the numbers of potential hardcore PvP players there is arround and what they could have brought to SotA. Hardcore PvP players are so many more then you make up they are. There is today many, many really big games with full loot and hardcore PvP rules but none of them are even close to old UO.

    A hardcore version of SotA would have a huge positive effect on this game."

     

    My point was aimed at the multitude of posts on this and other forums by the minority of PVP players who are also making the threats and prophesies of doom along with statements like ... if you say the deck system is better you are just wrong.

    No one has a wrong opinion on the matter.  It is their opinion.  PVP numbers are not insignificant  in the context of US / Euro gaming players but they have always been the minority, I know because I am a PVP person but I am not hard core.  I enjoy PVP and the challenges but I appreciate it being done wright.

    I would endorse full loot but as to server (PVP or shared but with PVP instance I am ok with either.  This song and dance and cycle of threats has been seen in game after game, starting after UO.  Those that went hard core PVP in the US and Europe have died.  Shadowbane for example, Age of Conan to some extent, and others.  EVE early on was aimed and went out of their way to protect "carebears" so that I and my friends who started Mercenary Frigates along with all the pirate groups had to leave.  These days all the stuff we did and aimed to get to for the excitement of PVP combat is a major focus in that game.

    The reality is also that there are significantly more people who play deck building card games and who if they learn of this mechanic will take a look at it when they might not otherwise be interested in an MMORPG.  Does that make it right, no again it is opinion and preference.  There are others who are MMORPG players who also like PVP who also enjoy deck building games who are intrigued by this concept and are now interested in the game where before it was not anywhere on their radars.

    I enjoy discussion and opinion.  I think threatening to leave and the multitudes of folks you represent who will leave also type comments are not helpful to their cause and quite frankly there are a number of good PVP games that hard core PVP folks especially like (most now in Asia) that they can enjoy more rather than angst over how this one is not shaping up to their personal view of how it should be.

    Thank you for your comments, and constructive comment.

    And again you mention the minority of PvP players? What is it that make you so certain? I am a hardcore PvP player and have played every MMO since before UO beta and done it with a guild that always seeked out games with risk vs reward, consequences and not to forget a working alignment system. There is full loot games out there that alone is many timer bigger then SotA and those players is a market. And since SotA match players with same playstyle together i see no reason not to have a hardcore version of SotA with full loot. Risk vs reward all the way and real consequences on death. Today ransom system isnt that.

    I like consensual PvP like UO Renaissance. What you had in the beginning of UO was not a hardcore PvP game where you met battle ready PvP players at equal skills, instead you killed miners that had no interest fighting you. That is worthless PvP.

    So you see i like to fight players that is as prepared and skilled as myself, i dont want to kill a defenceless player.

    There is a couple of ways to make this happen.

    Have a working alignment system that severly punish murderers like for example UO statloss system, not perfect but worked very well.

    Let the players that have the same playstyle fight it out and let all the ones that isnt interested do their thing without being interupted, that is better as i see it.

    What is bothering me the most is since i know what make a competitive hardcore player to tick and that is definetly not the combat system SotA developers went for. Randomness and luck is not something that will bring many hardcore players to this game. That combat system need to be removed and instead let the players use all their skills all the time since it will remove randomness and luck that have very little to do with being competitive and skilled at playing the PvP game.

    It is nothing but amazing developers of this magnitude dont understand how hardcore PvP players work, i mean didnt they learn anything from UO?

  • nosavynadanosavynada Dallas, TXPosts: 3Member

    I won't contribute more to the wall of text that is growing here by quoting, I have long enough responses as it is.

     

    With respect to the numbers and where do I get the idea that PVP players are in general the minority is based on the numbers of people you see in PVP vs those online.  Whether they are flagged as PVP, or if they are on their own servers etc are smaller numbers.  Also by extrapolation if they were a significant number of the game population as a whole then they would be marketed to.  It would instead be those who dislike PVP who were in the position of feeling their voices are not heard and lobbying for change and sometimes letting their passion influence how they communicate in forums.

    Likely it would be a quick and almost silent situation, since the majority of those with passion and a willingness to debate and fight for what they want.....are more likely to be a PVP person who is highly competitive.

    Full loot and real rewards for risking combat with other players is a prize worth pushing for.  It adds an immense amount of excitement and investment in the PVP because now you have tangible losses to no doing it right. 

    With respect to the combat system.  If you box, or are an MMA athlete, a real life warrior.  Chance and the choices you make are a factor in the outcome.  You can be the well trained SEAL / Ranger / or other elite fighter - in a fantasy setting the elite well armored knight etc and the situation and fortune play a role.  Your training, experience and skill help to minimize the luck factor but they do not guarantee a victory.  You can slip, or twist an ankle while moving.  A lucky shot from a Xbow or rifle or slingshot can kill you.  How an opponent moves  and many other explanations would apply as to why you might not be able to get a particular attack off or get a spell off in time.

    Where am I going with this, in the more traditional button pushing menu driven, auto targeting systems, spells always get off in time, arrows fly true even if not exactly facing the enemy and the same with any other skill or swing or thrust.  They are so set up and largely predictable that there is almost no doubt as to the outcome one it starts.  It mostly comes down to did the person at the keyboard start at the right time, with the right backup (party members) if needed and do they have any enhancing technology to give them and edge over an opponent.  Lets leave  aside the more advanced tools and just leave it at in game macros and timing.

    This system of deck building changes many of those.  You can still with the appropriate time spent in building a clean deck focused on your strengths (particularly given how you can be a completely different build than the next guy.  Get your spells, attacks etc off within a certain expectancy - to do that you build a smaller more focused deck of attacks and a spells etc. to control what cards / glyphs are more likely to come up.  I understand the argument of well they are not always readily available, you have X seconds to decide and it may not be appropriate at that time.  I understand that disadvantage.  I happen to be one of those willing to accept that things may not play out in a way that I am able to get that skill off.  I think it gives combat a bit more excitement (less and totally different than matching up against another player)  I can fight things that are average to my level and skill and it is not a given that I win.  I will with good prep work on the deck and timing of when to begin the attack more often than not win but I may finish with little or no mana or health or I could finish with plenty depending on how things play out.

    It is in a PVE environment no longer just a raid through a dungeon or whatever and this person does these things at this time followed by this and this etc and the only variable to the outcome is if an attack works and the small variability in damage or healing or lag that delayed the heal etc.  Now each persons role has randomness and fluidity and decisions on whether to use the small heal available or risk waiting for the next bigger one.  The deck is just a means of introducing those things that can come up in a fight not the actual reason you were unable to get the spell off or attack at just the precise instant you wanted.

    In the end however it is preference, you quite obviously do not like the system nor agree with me.  Thats good and healthy until we get frustrated and start insulting or bringing things completely out of proportion.  Which I will state for clarity you have not done in this conversation.

    Cheers!

  • EtheomEtheom Calhoun, GAPosts: 61Member

    Thank you for this detailed feedback. I appreciate the depth you've given us into your combat experience.

    Please remember this review was written during Release 8 of Pre-Alpha.

    The developers will be publishing Release 14 of Pre-Alpha at the end of this month.

    All perspectives are unique perspectives of One perspective

  • JonrobinJonrobin Kingsport, TNPosts: 18Member

    This combat system is different than any I have previously experienced. I've played these games for 14 years, and finally there is a refreshing change. I like the fact that in combat they've introduced an element of luck. For me it's more immersive. I can't hit auto-attack and go for a Coors Extra. I can't set up macros and have a conversation with my wife while I'm in a fight. I like the fact that by allocating your points accordingly you can decrease the amount of luck/randomness in a fight. Just for me personally, this is the best experience since I started Everquest in 2000. I understand that some people hate this system, but as I said, just for me it's perfect.

    jr

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