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I could sit down for thirty minutes at the starport, log off, and never feel like my time wasn't wel

Beatnik59Beatnik59 Chicago, ILPosts: 2,238Member Uncommon

The title line is how I felt when I played Star Wars Galaxies, back a year after launch in 2004.  That game didn't last long, but the game world was so rich, so immersive, that even logging on and observing what went on was fun in itself.

It wasn't for a lack of things to do.  There was plenty to do in SWG, every day, but even when you felt like doing nothing, you didn't want to log off.

Stuff would happen all around you.  Gunfights would erupt, people were RPing all over the place in spatial, and the galaxy would be in motion (market activity, entertainers entertaining, pick up groups and loners in far off locales).  This was the kind of game where something interesting could happen at any time, and you didn't want to miss out.  You'd do your own thing, just hanging out, and BOOM...you'd get a text and it was on!

This kind of interest in staying logged on is rare these days.  The only other time I experienced it was in CoH around Atlas Park and Pocket D.  And I don't know if it was because the players were different, the games were designed differently, or that the environments were more conducive to staying logged on.

But in today's games, I don't feel the same vibe.  If I'm not doing something, there seems to be no reason to stay logged on just to "hang out"...these are not games which encourage you to hang out.  They encourage you to keep on grinding or questing or acting in some way to exhaustion and log out.  It is as if the games are saying, "if you ain't mashing buttons in combat, you shouldn't be here."  But what if I don't want to mash buttons in combat all the time?  Sometimes I feel like that and I want something interesting to experience in the game without it all having to rely on me navigating a life and death struggle every second.  Is it wrong to want that in an MMO?

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

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Comments

  • ElsaboltsElsabolts Greencastle, INPosts: 2,595Member Uncommon
    I agree, Its like crystal clear to me that Sony could take back control of the intire MMO market by just giving EQ1 a new graphics engine. Why they do not see this is beyond me.
  • The.agGThe.agG EPosts: 119Member
    If this isn't a post showing the rose-tinted glasses among MMO players, then i don't know what is.
  • OriousOrious O''Fallon, ILPosts: 548Member
    It's pretty simple. MMOs now are games first and worlds second. SWG put the star wars atmosphere and world immersion first above all other MMO aspects. Games are pretty mellow, worlds draw and keep you in. I agree though, I felt perfectly fine waiting for the shuttles...watching it fly in through the clouds.

    image

  • flizzerflizzer Manchester, NHPosts: 1,550Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by The.agG
    If this isn't a post showing the rose-tinted glasses among MMO players, then i don't know what is.

    I have to agree.

     

    The most amazing game of all time cancelled!  There must have been some problems, no?

  • EvelknievelEvelknievel Ehrenfeld, PAPosts: 2,977Member

    Definitely was a different time in mmorpg's, especially when you have a movie everyone can relate to.

    SOE and the rest of the crew at LA really screwed the pooch on SWG by trying to change with the times to the WoW era of mmo mechanics in their game to recruit newer subscribers.

    Old school EQ also had dependency on others participating in your online experience. We are just in a different era of mmo gaming where everything must have instant gratification. However back onto SWG, oh the game had many bugs, but we got by someway and somehow and still enjoyed the game through all it's personal player drama.

  • XssivXssiv Haskell, NJPosts: 359Member

    Back in day, just being online with thousands of other players was cool in and of itself.   

     

    I remember spending entire evenings in SWG just sitting at a camp site with my friends chatting via text bubbles and doing emotes, and we had a blast. 

     

    Unfortunately, that novelty wore off many years ago which is why most old school MMO gamers will never be able to recapture that magic feeling they had 10-15 years ago.   For some reason many keep trying and feel that the games themselves are to blame.  

     

    I remember when I first got my driver's license, I would be excited to jump in the car and drive regardless of where I was going...   These days, not so much.

     

     

     

     

  • OriousOrious O''Fallon, ILPosts: 548Member
    Originally posted by flizzer
    Originally posted by The.agG
    If this isn't a post showing the rose-tinted glasses among MMO players, then i don't know what is.

    I have to agree.

     

    The most amazing game of all time cancelled!  There must have been some problems, no?

    It was cancelled after they went from a unique/innovative gameplay strategy to be more in-line with WoW/modern strategies. That's when most people quit.

    image

  • GiffenGiffen Lacey, WAPosts: 268Member Uncommon

    I played SWG back then but I guess my memory is different.  I think the issue is back then every game was like SWG in that they were all non-quest hub centric.  Now we look back so fondly on the games of that type because there aren't any AAA games like that these days, all are WoW clones with their forced questing, game on rails, static content being forced down your throats.

     

    Anyway what I remember about SWG was barren worlds where you could venture out exploring but would end up running around for the most part just seeing an empty world very sparsely inhabited by mobs. 

  • LudwikLudwik Rochester, NYPosts: 401Member Uncommon
    No, it's not wrong to want that.

    Somewhere in the tenure of the MMO genre it got lost and it hasn't found its way back yet.

    The classic MMOs like SWG, EQ, UO, AC, FFXI they made soloing difficult and at points unenjoyable. These games were designed so that when you partnered up with people the experience became more fun and easier. By doing so they promoted community growth and instilled the idea into players that making friends and having fun was actually beating the game.

    Today's modern MMOs are not like that, they are actually the exact opposite. Playing as a solo is very easy and the limited group content that these games have is often very difficult and very time consuming making it not worth doing. Not only do today's MMOs not promote community growth, they actually discourage it. Whether it's ESO, GW2, WS or FFXIV every group experience is a huge fucking hassle. Blizzard posts a stat that only 1.3% of their player base has ever done a raid compare this to EQ1 with its first 2 expansions where over 90% of the player base had done a raid. From 90% to 1%, is it because the players stopped wanting to raid? Nope, it's because raiding has become this organizational nightmare that isn't worth doing anymore. Gone are the days of 'Hey, let's just bring everyone and have a good time!".

    Grouping, raiding, and forming a community should make a game more enjoyable and easier. It shouldn't make the game harder, it shouldn't make it so you have to watch 17 YouTube videos on how to properly play your class, it shouldn't make it so you have to kick your best friend out of the raid because he's not good enough.

    As I said, this genre took a wrong turn a long time ago and it still hasn't found its way back yet.
  • Tyvolus4Tyvolus4 lincoln, NEPosts: 175Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by The.agG
    If this isn't a post showing the rose-tinted glasses among MMO players, then i don't know what is.

    rest assured you don't have a clue.  The OP is spot on right here.  MMOs know are like the modern day version of a pac-man game....you are either always chomping away and mashing those buttons or you aren't playing.  MMOs like EQ, you could always find time to do absolutely NOTHING (and have a blast doing it), and it felt like you were always a part of the game, the community, the living breathing game world that you existed in.

    Its actually prolly better that people like you, have no idea what you are missing.

  • NC4OMNC4OM Toronto, ONPosts: 16Member
    Now it's about greed, box sales, get in get out. companies dont want to milk their investment out over 5> years they want it all now.  If  "we" as a customer/subscriber  continue to support shit game designs we are to blame.   Oh how I miss SWG, I agree with the OP, I'd sit at the star port for hours some nights watching the "world" go by. /tear

    Been bangn' since pong

  • cmorris975cmorris975 San Jose, CAPosts: 186Member
    Originally posted by Xssiv

    Back in day, just being online with thousands of other players was cool in and of itself.   

     

    I remember spending entire evenings in SWG just sitting at a camp site with my friends chatting via text bubbles and doing emotes, and we had a blast. 

     

    Unfortunately, that novelty wore off many years ago which is why most old school MMO gamers will never be able to recapture that magic feeling they had 10-15 years ago.   For some reason many keep trying and feel that the games themselves are to blame.  

     

    I remember when I first got my driver's license, I would be excited to jump in the car and drive regardless of where I was going...   These days, not so much.

     

     

     

     

    Not for me.  I still love chatting and doing emotes, still am amazed by the virtual worlds being created for use to play in.  And in some games I am fortunate to still have those experiences, but the community of the game has something to do with that as well as how the particular game is designed.

    I am sorry that you somehow lost that.

  • VooDoo_PapaVooDoo_Papa Somewhere on a beach on the east coast, FLPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    they didn't make the changes they did to SWG because it was an amazing game pulling sub's left and right. people seriously either refuse to admit this, or were never there to begin with. 

    image
  • NC4OMNC4OM Toronto, ONPosts: 16Member
    Originally posted by VooDoo_Papa
    they didn't make the changes they did to SWG because it was an amazing game pulling sub's left and right. people seriously either refuse to admit this, or were never there to begin with. 

     

    Talk about what you know and this aint it.

    Been bangn' since pong

  • MadimorgaMadimorga Atlanta, GAPosts: 1,901Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ludwik
    No, it's not wrong to want that.

    Somewhere in the tenure of the MMO genre it got lost and it hasn't found its way back yet.

    The classic MMOs like SWG, EQ, UO, AC, FFXI they made soloing difficult and at points unenjoyable. These games were designed so that when you partnered up with people the experience became more fun and easier. By doing so they promoted community growth and instilled the idea into players that making friends and having fun was actually beating the game.

    Today's modern MMOs are not like that, they are actually the exact opposite. Playing as a solo is very easy and the limited group content that these games have is often very difficult and very time consuming making it not worth doing. Not only do today's MMOs not promote community growth, they actually discourage it. Whether it's ESO, GW2, WS or FFXIV every group experience is a huge fucking hassle. Blizzard posts a stat that only 1.3% of their player base has ever done a raid compare this to EQ1 with its first 2 expansions where over 90% of the player base had done a raid. From 90% to 1%, is it because the players stopped wanting to raid? Nope, it's because raiding has become this organizational nightmare that isn't worth doing anymore. Gone are the days of 'Hey, let's just bring everyone and have a good time!".

    Grouping, raiding, and forming a community should make a game more enjoyable and easier. It shouldn't make the game harder, it shouldn't make it so you have to watch 17 YouTube videos on how to properly play your class, it shouldn't make it so you have to kick your best friend out of the raid because he's not good enough.

    As I said, this genre took a wrong turn a long time ago and it still hasn't found its way back yet.

     

    I completely disagree with the first part.  If devs don't want people to solo in their games, they need to stop advertising to people who mostly solo, rather than take our money and then try to twist our arms to group. The quickest way to turn me into a %100 silent, grouchy solo player who quits soon after is to make it seem like I'm being forced to group.  

     

    I agree with the second part.  If I have an option to group, it needs to be easy to do so.  I need a dungeon finder (you might not agree with me on that part) and I need to know that I can heal or dps without having done it twenty times before with a guild and watched thirty youtube videos.  This is why I'll never queue for a Wildstar dungeon.

     

    I'm also sad there are no game worlds like SWG is said to have been.  It's a shame Archeage isn't going to have any PVE servers, from my brief time on the Russian servers, it looks like the sort of game where people might hang out, check out people's houses and farms, and maybe find a central area for RP and chatting.  It seemed to have the potential to be be a more laid back, social game. 

     

    Come to think of it, Entropia is a very social, laid back game like that.  But the ridiculous cost to play enjoyably for more than a few hours a week kills it for me.

    image

    I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.

    ~Albert Einstein

  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,768Member Uncommon

    Most people can appreciate that old classic cars had a sense of grace and elegance that is missing from more modern examples but only a small number of people are willing to put up with the increased maintenance and lack of comfort features that comes with it owning one over a new car.

    There is no going back I'm afraid.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,677Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Beatnik59

    ...these are not games which encourage you to hang out.  They encourage you to keep on grinding or questing or acting in some way to exhaustion and log out. 

    Agreed. The big focus is on the moment to moment experience and, while that's very important, they seem to have gone to an extreme there and really ignored the social dynamic. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • AzucarSaladoAzucarSalado SpainPosts: 46Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ludwik

    Grouping, raiding, and forming a community should make a game more enjoyable and easier. It shouldn't make the game harder, it shouldn't make it so you have to watch 17 YouTube videos on how to properly play your class, it shouldn't make it so you have to kick your best friend out of the raid because he's not good enough.

     

    Greatest assessment ever.

     

    Originally posted by VooDoo_Papa
    they didn't make the changes they did to SWG because it was an amazing game pulling sub's left and right. people seriously either refuse to admit this, or were never there to begin with. 

     

    At the beginning, there was a great feedback from SOE in the forums and interaction with players who posted. Wines from some players started because there were some uber combos of fighting classes, others because the path to be a jedi was too time demanding. SOE promised to "balance classes" and that was the start of the end of the game. Instead of "balance", they themeparked it and killed the need to socialize. Each game upgrade was worst than the previous one and loyal players felt back-stabbed. SOE asked the players on forums for advice and promised to implement it. Instead, they listened to winners and/or they were blinded by the gold pot of WoW was becoming.

    ^.^'

  • DibdabsDibdabs FelvershamPosts: 2,604Member Uncommon
    Oh god, is it time for another tedious wallow in the old SWG pool of nostalgia again?  It only seems like five minutes since the last one.
  • olepiolepi Austin, TXPosts: 1,150Member Uncommon

    This is how I judge whether I want to play a game or not. First, do I enjoy being in that game's world? If it doesn't feel right to me, then I don't even try to play. I knew within 10 minutes that I didn't want to play SWTOR. I don't even have to play Wildstar, just the screenshots alone are enough for me. I don't want to live in a cartoon world. WoW the same way, never played it after the first 10 minutes.

    If I do enjoy the world, then I'll try out a bunch of different classes/races/etc until I find one that I like the feel of. I like how it looks, how it moves, how it fights.

    It is only after this that I start looking at actual skills. So basically the opposite of min/max'er.

    I never played SWG, during that time I played CoH and Ryzom. I still play Ryzom to get that full world feeling. With a day/night cycle, real seasons that affect the mobs and mats. Real weather. Predators that chase prey, and then go to their den to sleep. Herds of herbivores trekking to new ground in the winter. It is a real world, with some gaming elements added on :)

    Today, we get a lot of theme park games. It's like the Mine Train ride at Disneyland. It's not a real mine, not a real train, but a simulation that is fixed and repeatable.

     

     

    ------------
    RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  • Pig-EyePig-Eye Lickbone, KYPosts: 115Member
    Originally posted by Xssiv

    Back in day, just being online with thousands of other players was cool in and of itself.   

     

    I remember spending entire evenings in SWG just sitting at a camp site with my friends chatting via text bubbles and doing emotes, and we had a blast. 

     

    Unfortunately, that novelty wore off many years ago which is why most old school MMO gamers will never be able to recapture that magic feeling they had 10-15 years ago.   For some reason many keep trying and feel that the games themselves are to blame.  

     

    I remember when I first got my driver's license, I would be excited to jump in the car and drive regardless of where I was going...   These days, not so much.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Exactly!!

    I got your Deliverance!

    Where's my banjo?!!

  • EvelknievelEvelknievel Ehrenfeld, PAPosts: 2,977Member
    Originally posted by Dibdabs
    Oh god, is it time for another tedious wallow in the old SWG pool of nostalgia again?  It only seems like five minutes since the last one.

    At least we are not discussing Wildstar vs ESO or why ESO is not a sandbox and ArcheAge is a sandpark image

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VooDoo_Papa
    they didn't make the changes they did to SWG because it was an amazing game pulling sub's left and right. people seriously either refuse to admit this, or were never there to begin with. 

    But your equating "amazing" with "pulling subs left and right".

    There is a difference between being "amazing for a small group of people" and "amazing for a large group of people".

     

    One is one thing and one is the other. It's the dream of developers to hit the center but that doesn't diminish the value of each to its respective group.

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,478Member Uncommon

    Good memory's never fade.....

    That aside I don't think we can have another "SWG" 

    What we had back then was a majority of gamers ingame that threated the game not as a game but as a virtual world. 

     

  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,768Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by VooDoo_Papa
    they didn't make the changes they did to SWG because it was an amazing game pulling sub's left and right. people seriously either refuse to admit this, or were never there to begin with. 

    But your equating "amazing" with "pulling subs left and right".

    There is a difference between being "amazing for a small group of people" and "amazing for a large group of people".

     

    One is one thing and one is the other. It's the dream of developers to hit the center but that doesn't diminish the value of each to its respective group.

    That's true but at the end of the day your measure of amazing only really matters if you own the game and can control it's direction.  It doesn't matter how many people thought SWG pre NGE was "amazing" the people who where in a position to make changes to it didn't agree.  Now this might be because the subs where lower than they thought they should be, they took queues from a different group of people than you or they just didn't like what they had in front of them.  But for the people holding the pocketbooks something was clearly seen as wrong with the game to make them spend so much time and money to revamp the game like they did.

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