I don't see much point in distinguishing a game like World of Warcraft from a game like GW2 or Tera, etc. Both lead to heart-pounding, finger twitching, sweaty battles.
Only at the level of EverQuest 1 would I bother drawing a distinction. EQ really took action down to root or run.
Either way, I've never felt even the slightest urge for an action mmorpg; too many great single player action games.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal The new trend is action and I hate it. If feels like another cop out; where devs became obsessed with something they could handle instead of doing anything I would have liked in future mmo's. I almost can't blame them tho. No one could solve the problem of lag on our shitty PC's so they focused on something else. A "how can we make mmo's different but still easy to make" board meeting.
Agreed. What I used to enjoy about MMORPGs is totally ignored by "action combat." I do not play them to test my reaction/mouse and keyboard mashing skills. I play them to be someone else. Action combat totally ignores this aspect.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Albatroes Personally, when I have to do the same thing over and over again in a game, I want to do it as cruise-control as possible. I don't want to dodge and aim etc repetitively just to watch something I want go to someone else or not drop at all. That's not saying I do not like action mmorpgs, but as an investment I personally don't stick with them. That's why I like ranged classes in traditional mmorpgs like wow/rift w/e so I can just hang back on occasion and do the grind.
Doing the same thing over and over is why I think action combat is the bestest in the world. it breaks all the monotony with actually doing something other then going through the motions. Different stokes for different folks I guess.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by Jemcrystal The new trend is action and I hate it. If feels like another cop out; where devs became obsessed with something they could handle instead of doing anything I would have liked in future mmo's. I almost can't blame them tho. No one could solve the problem of lag on our shitty PC's so they focused on something else. A "how can we make mmo's different but still easy to make" board meeting.
Agreed. What I used to enjoy about MMORPGs is totally ignored by "action combat." I do not play them to test my reaction/mouse and keyboard mashing skills. I play them to be someone else. Action combat totally ignores this aspect.
What, exactly, does the game's combat system have to do with "being someone else?" Action combat doesn't ignore immersion and role-playing. It simply has nothing to do with it - and neither does "tab target" combat.
A player's connection to their character is created through roleplaying, story, exploration, visual customization, and build customization. How does action combat "ignore" any of that?
Originally posted by Jemcrystal The new trend is action and I hate it. If feels like another cop out; where devs became obsessed with something they could handle instead of doing anything I would have liked in future mmo's. I almost can't blame them tho. No one could solve the problem of lag on our shitty PC's so they focused on something else. A "how can we make mmo's different but still easy to make" board meeting.
Agreed. What I used to enjoy about MMORPGs is totally ignored by "action combat." I do not play them to test my reaction/mouse and keyboard mashing skills. I play them to be someone else. Action combat totally ignores this aspect.
I don't think difference combat make role-playing less role playing ,
IMO it give player more chose to make things complex so it raise the role-playing feel a lots . Though still not to point where you can reason with monster .
Only thing i don't like about current action combat is major skill chase after me even if i success evasion .
i also don't like the way they use "action combat" , mouse fixed shooting mode wasn't good IMO .
Originally posted by Jemcrystal The new trend is action and I hate it. If feels like another cop out; where devs became obsessed with something they could handle instead of doing anything I would have liked in future mmo's. I almost can't blame them tho. No one could solve the problem of lag on our shitty PC's so they focused on something else. A "how can we make mmo's different but still easy to make" board meeting.
Agreed. What I used to enjoy about MMORPGs is totally ignored by "action combat." I do not play them to test my reaction/mouse and keyboard mashing skills. I play them to be someone else. Action combat totally ignores this aspect.
What, exactly, does the game's combat system have to do with "being someone else?" Action combat doesn't ignore immersion and role-playing. It simply has nothing to do with it - and neither does "tab target" combat. A player's connection to their character is created through roleplaying, story, exploration, visual customization, and build customization. How does action combat "ignore" any of that?
The combat system has everything to do, since that is 80-95% of current games. Random Number Generation is the key. Ever hear of that? Action Combat lacks this feature, making the player's "skill" decide hits and misses, not the character's skills, developed in the game by choices the player makes.
When I create a character in an action combat game (any game), I am NEVER connected to it. The phone rings and I jump, moving my mouse at the wrong at an inopportune time. *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, not my character (Joe Blow). If I "fat finger" my keyboard (which happens A LOT for me) hitting wrong keys, or unintended keys, *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, NOT my character. Nothings takes me out of the "illusion" of being someone else faster than action combat. If I miss a dodge, AlBQuirky killed the character, not that character's skill in dodging. When *MY* skill trumps my character's, RPG is gone for me. Other player's mileage may vary
I know that not everyone agrees with me, or even if they do, may not enjoy MMOs the same as I want to. There needs to be action combat MMOs for players who enjoy that. BUT... contrary to popular belief, action combat is not the "neatest thing since sliced bread" as many players would have others believe. To me, it is a cancer started by Console FPS/Sports Game players that has infected the MMORPG genre.
The above is only my opinion and preference.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Currently there arent any Action MMO's that arent MMOFPS's that i would be interested in playing, and even the one i do play, Planetside 2, is something i play on a very casual basis, which is basically once maybe twice a fortnight. It was also the feature that put me off of playing GW2, despite the fact that i really liked the graphics in the game, maybe i am just not that much of a fan of twitch gaming, but i don't ever see me choosing to play one of those types of games, but i wouldn't say that they won't catch on with the gaming public, i just don't see them achieving the top rankings in the MMO genre, they also tend to have a small number of 'combat actions' which probably makes them console friendly, but i personally find them restrictive, either you have a full spread of combat actions or you don't use hotkeys at all, which is pretty much how Planetside handles things.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal The new trend is action and I hate it. If feels like another cop out; where devs became obsessed with something they could handle instead of doing anything I would have liked in future mmo's. I almost can't blame them tho. No one could solve the problem of lag on our shitty PC's so they focused on something else. A "how can we make mmo's different but still easy to make" board meeting.
Agreed. What I used to enjoy about MMORPGs is totally ignored by "action combat." I do not play them to test my reaction/mouse and keyboard mashing skills. I play them to be someone else. Action combat totally ignores this aspect.
What, exactly, does the game's combat system have to do with "being someone else?" Action combat doesn't ignore immersion and role-playing. It simply has nothing to do with it - and neither does "tab target" combat.
A player's connection to their character is created through roleplaying, story, exploration, visual customization, and build customization. How does action combat "ignore" any of that?
He is just looking for any excuse to dismiss action combat. It doesn't even have to make sense. He just wants to eat his hamburger and cheesy poofs while one hand clicking.
Personally, I can and do play both systems. I prefer action combat, but I can also enjoy tab target. The only thing, I can't tank in tab target games anymore. It's so boring. After having to actually block at the right times (in Tera for example). It's just hard for me to go back to a game where my tanking is based off a dice roll.
When I create a character in an action combat game (any game), I am NEVER connected to it. The phone rings and I jump, moving my mouse at the wrong at an inopportune time. *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, not my character (Joe Blow). If I "fat finger" my keyboard (which happens A LOT for me) hitting wrong keys, or unintended keys, *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, NOT my character. Nothings takes me out of the "illusion" of being someone else faster than action combat. If I miss a dodge, AlBQuirky killed the character, not that character's skill in dodging. When *MY* skill trumps my character's, RPG is gone for me. Other player's mileage may vary ...snip
That's something I never thought of relating it to RPG. Good read.
Glad I could shed some light from a different viewpoint
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Jemcrystal The new trend is action and I hate it. If feels like another cop out; where devs became obsessed with something they could handle instead of doing anything I would have liked in future mmo's. I almost can't blame them tho. No one could solve the problem of lag on our shitty PC's so they focused on something else. A "how can we make mmo's different but still easy to make" board meeting.
Agreed. What I used to enjoy about MMORPGs is totally ignored by "action combat." I do not play them to test my reaction/mouse and keyboard mashing skills. I play them to be someone else. Action combat totally ignores this aspect.
What, exactly, does the game's combat system have to do with "being someone else?" Action combat doesn't ignore immersion and role-playing. It simply has nothing to do with it - and neither does "tab target" combat.
A player's connection to their character is created through roleplaying, story, exploration, visual customization, and build customization. How does action combat "ignore" any of that?
The combat system has everything to do, since that is 80-95% of current games. Random Number Generation is the key. Ever hear of that? Action Combat lacks this feature, making the player's "skill" decide hits and misses, not the character's skills, developed in the game by choices the player makes.
When I create a character in an action combat game (any game), I am NEVER connected to it. The phone rings and I jump, moving my mouse at the wrong at an inopportune time. *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, not my character (Joe Blow). If I "fat finger" my keyboard (which happens A LOT for me) hitting wrong keys, or unintended keys, *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, NOT my character. Nothings takes me out of the "illusion" of being someone else faster than action combat. If I miss a dodge, AlBQuirky killed the character, not that character's skill in dodging. When *MY* skill trumps my character's, RPG is gone for me. Other player's mileage may vary
I know that not everyone agrees with me, or even if they do, may not enjoy MMOs the same as I want to. There needs to be action combat MMOs for players who enjoy that. BUT... contrary to popular belief, action combat is not the "neatest thing since sliced bread" as many players would have others believe. To me, it is a cancer started by Console FPS/Sports Game players that has infected the MMORPG genre.
The above is only my opinion and preference.
That's a coin with two sides. You could argue (as I would) that having the player skill dictate the character's actions (as opposed to RNG) INCREASES the player's connection with and empathy for their character. Why? Because you have refined control of them and their actions - a perfect ability to control who they are - right down to their combat style.
I played a complex FFXI and i was constantly busy with no time to fiddle with more keys.I had to cntrl+ and ALT+ so no way i am also looking to aim my Reticle and look over my many macros something has to go and i choose the aiming anytime in a rpg because complexity and thinking is far more challenging and fun for me.
I look for Reticle action combat in first person shooters,like Quake or Unreal or Gears of War.In games like that you have your few set weapons and the rest is map skills,movement and trying to deceive your opponent,so your not forever looking at your keyboard you can maintain focus on the aiming.
Point is trying to create action combat within a complex mmorpg does more to create a cumbersome game than a fun game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
When I create a character in an action combat game (any game), I am NEVER connected to it. The phone rings and I jump, moving my mouse at the wrong at an inopportune time. *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, not my character (Joe Blow). If I "fat finger" my keyboard (which happens A LOT for me) hitting wrong keys, or unintended keys, *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, NOT my character. Nothings takes me out of the "illusion" of being someone else faster than action combat. If I miss a dodge, AlBQuirky killed the character, not that character's skill in dodging. When *MY* skill trumps my character's, RPG is gone for me. Other player's mileage may vary
...snip
That's something I never thought of relating it to RPG. Good read.
Glad I could shed some light from a different viewpoint
Interestingly, this is the viewpoint that quite specifically divides the community into 'skill-based' and non-skill based advocates.
Action combat and 'skill-based' games function as an extension of the player's individual twitch skills; any advantages from gear or stats are minimized, as careful reflexes and well-timed strikes make the biggest difference. In many respects, it entirely removes the 'character' from the equation.
On the other hand, your preference, for roleplaying and combat purposes, focuses on statistics and gearing to provide distinction. If you have the Epic Tower Shield of Blocking and I have Wimpy Sword of Not-So-Piercing, the outcome is (mostly) clear decidedly independent of my input as a player.
Now, what I think is lacking from both perspectives is the idea of player input: both schemes are entirely dependent on one's input, just on much different time scales: The scenario you describe as preferable, one in which character skill is separated from player skill, is wholly dependent on player input, generally how much time you as a player are willing to devote to the game. Traditional MMO's essentially gate content, and gear, and statistical advantage to those that spend the most time, and where success is practically guaranteed on some level if you invest significant portions of time; you, and by extension your character; will far outpace other players who may be more adept personally, but lag temporally. So, too, enters to endless 'hardcore vs. casual' debate.
Player skill based games, action games, to a certain extent, tend to take the time scale of player input and bring it to the microscale. I think the general concept is that players want to be the source of, and reason for, character success, and feeling a moment-to-moment connection to that, and indeed, being rewarded for their personal skill, rather, fingertip agility, is perhaps more important than simply lagging behind others due simply to allocated time.
There is, of course, room for all these systems and more, but the psychology you hint at from the motivations each party may have towards one system or another really hints at a larger divide in how we structure our virtual worlds.
Action MMORPGS require alot of physical and mental effort, while Tab Target does not. So the difference between 5 hours of a game like Vindictus, or WoW, in those 5 hours in Vindictus, it feels like 10. You can't just kinda "Blank out", during the boring parts. So people end up taking breaks. But with a subscription, I mean, the breaks aren't all that appealing, yet you don't want to play either, so obviously you won't subscribe to a game that is like that. Hence why you see these types of MMORPGS getting alot of excitement at release
Playing a game for 5+ hours straight without a break is neither normal nor healthy. Well, at least not unless it's the sort of game that you can leave running while only intermittently paying attention to it--which few MMORPGs are.
I don't understand this obsession to combine a FPS style of game play into a MMO. I've played Wildstar, GW2, Tera and ESO while they all have some neat systems these combat systems in my opinion don't function very well in a group setting. I personally don't think action combat works well for traditional MMOs. I'm not entirely against it I have just yet to see a good version of it implemented into a game.
What does FPS have to do anything? Don't people realize that there were tons of action combat games on the NES, SNES, and Genesis when they could barely do anything in first person?
Group combat works much better in GW2 than in any Trinity game I've seen, though that's partially because ArenaNet put considerable effort into making it practical to find a group and most MMORPGs don't.
The main problem I see with the MMO concept and concepts not based on RPGs is that with the former, you can have cooldowns and you can do attack routines etc. Such things allow for ping tolerance. Somebody who sits in Europe and plays on a server in the USA can still play pretty well.
With Action games, you can do online, but you need very short ping times. Because of the laws of physics, you have limits to what you can allow in the distance department. A europe-USA ping of 500ms is not exceptionally slow, and 300ms is already close to the limits. But this is half a second reaction time that a european player will lose over an US based, which makes them unable to compete if the game is action based and thus no longer has cooldowns.
That's a big problem for PVP. But you can cover up any fixed amount of latency for PVE purposes by giving mobs a reaction time of sorts during which information is transmitted.
I would find Devil May Cry style combat very tiring with a keyboard and mouse too. With a gamepad I could grind all day laid back and my hands would never feel tired doing over 50 different skills one after the other in the blink of an eye switching between weapons on the fly. And all without any hotbars filling up my screen.
I even found Final Fantasy XIV more comfortable to play with a gamepad and that game has traditional tab target hotbar combat.
If these recent action MMOs all had controller support, they would be much more popular. It is way more enjoyable and comfortable to play a twitchy action oriented game with a game pad 100%.
When games try to offer built-in controller support, it usually doesn't work, anyway. Maybe they can make it work right for a few particular gamepads, but there are so many out there that it isn't practical to test for everything. Rather, you rely on support from the controller vendor, as they can make software work right for the few pieces of hardware that they sell. I've played Champions Online, Guild Wars 2, TERA, and FFXIV with a gamepad just fine. Ranged attacks in TERA are the only thing notably awkward of those games.
If sufficiently determined, you can make considerable portions of a lot of games work with a gamepad. I've done so with Civilization IV and Uncharted Waters Online, for example.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal The new trend is action and I hate it. If feels like another cop out; where devs became obsessed with something they could handle instead of doing anything I would have liked in future mmo's. I almost can't blame them tho. No one could solve the problem of lag on our shitty PC's so they focused on something else. A "how can we make mmo's different but still easy to make" board meeting.
Agreed. What I used to enjoy about MMORPGs is totally ignored by "action combat." I do not play them to test my reaction/mouse and keyboard mashing skills. I play them to be someone else. Action combat totally ignores this aspect.
What, exactly, does the game's combat system have to do with "being someone else?" Action combat doesn't ignore immersion and role-playing. It simply has nothing to do with it - and neither does "tab target" combat.
A player's connection to their character is created through roleplaying, story, exploration, visual customization, and build customization. How does action combat "ignore" any of that?
The combat system has everything to do, since that is 80-95% of current games. Random Number Generation is the key. Ever hear of that? Action Combat lacks this feature, making the player's "skill" decide hits and misses, not the character's skills, developed in the game by choices the player makes.
When I create a character in an action combat game (any game), I am NEVER connected to it. The phone rings and I jump, moving my mouse at the wrong at an inopportune time. *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, not my character (Joe Blow). If I "fat finger" my keyboard (which happens A LOT for me) hitting wrong keys, or unintended keys, *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, NOT my character. Nothings takes me out of the "illusion" of being someone else faster than action combat. If I miss a dodge, AlBQuirky killed the character, not that character's skill in dodging. When *MY* skill trumps my character's, RPG is gone for me. Other player's mileage may vary
I know that not everyone agrees with me, or even if they do, may not enjoy MMOs the same as I want to. There needs to be action combat MMOs for players who enjoy that. BUT... contrary to popular belief, action combat is not the "neatest thing since sliced bread" as many players would have others believe. To me, it is a cancer started by Console FPS/Sports Game players that has infected the MMORPG genre.
The above is only my opinion and preference.
Action combat games need an awful lot of random number generation, too, you know. I can't think of any game ever made in any genre that wouldn't have benefited from a hefty dose of random number generation, though sometimes you can get it implicitly from perturbations in the timing of when players do things. A lot depends on what you do with said random numbers.
I just liked the bits about MMORPGs being physically exhausting, and that Wildstar is tab-target.
If video games are physically exhausting, I think you know what I would suggest.
I guess you could call Wildstar tab target by virtue of the fact that you can press tab and the target frame will go to an enemy, but the more traditional meaning of tab-target is that you press tab to target the enemy that all of your attacks will land on. Which is not the case in Wildstar. You still have to aim, and tabbing will just show you mob HP and a cast bar.
Lets just cut to the chase and get to the real point of this thread. Action oriented combat is geared toward the younger gamer, lets call them the 15 to 40 year old group.
Judging by my own experience, as an ancient gamer, I think around the age of 40 is where you begin to accept your own mortality as a gamer. Once you thought of yourself as a gaming god! Now, your 8 year old nephew comes along and wipes the floor with you, without even breaking a sweat. Are video games physically exhausting? At age 20 certainly not. At age 40 and up, if you are playing a game that requires constant mental and physical attention, then you will most definitely find your playing time becoming shorter and shorter, and quite possibly less enjoyable also. So it is a real fact that as gamers age, they will look for games that have a slower pace and that can be paused and analyzed, rather than simply require quick reflexes and acute mental concentration to succeed.
So all of this really says nothing except that action oriented combat has its place in MMO's for the younger crowd, just as the tab target/select abilities combat has it place as well. Which is more popular? I have no idea, as it would really depend on where the average age of the MMO gamer is at the moment. I can guarantee though that no matter how much you may like action type combat, there will come a time in your life when your skills will wane, and it becomes harder and harder to apply the concentration needed.
When it is all said and done, we need games that appeal to all types of gamers, young and old.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I think the title is right. Wildstar was way to busy. Then you look at a game like heartstone it's layed back, I think pc crowd has an older demographic that prefer to play less busy games. I fall into the older category and I'm only 32. I can still hang with the pups on console shooters, but my taste for games has matured and I prefer a thinkers game now rather than a twitch game.
Originally posted by Crusades I think the title is right.
I could see you posting that if it was 2010, because, well... who knew, right?
However, it caught on years ago and gave birth to ARPGs, MOBAs and the action-based MMOs we see now (ex: GW2, TERA, Wildstar).
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Jemcrystal The new trend is action and I hate it. If feels like another cop out; where devs became obsessed with something they could handle instead of doing anything I would have liked in future mmo's. I almost can't blame them tho. No one could solve the problem of lag on our shitty PC's so they focused on something else. A "how can we make mmo's different but still easy to make" board meeting.
Agreed. What I used to enjoy about MMORPGs is totally ignored by "action combat." I do not play them to test my reaction/mouse and keyboard mashing skills. I play them to be someone else. Action combat totally ignores this aspect.
What, exactly, does the game's combat system have to do with "being someone else?" Action combat doesn't ignore immersion and role-playing. It simply has nothing to do with it - and neither does "tab target" combat.
A player's connection to their character is created through roleplaying, story, exploration, visual customization, and build customization. How does action combat "ignore" any of that?
The combat system has everything to do, since that is 80-95% of current games. Random Number Generation is the key. Ever hear of that? Action Combat lacks this feature, making the player's "skill" decide hits and misses, not the character's skills, developed in the game by choices the player makes.
When I create a character in an action combat game (any game), I am NEVER connected to it. The phone rings and I jump, moving my mouse at the wrong at an inopportune time. *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, not my character (Joe Blow). If I "fat finger" my keyboard (which happens A LOT for me) hitting wrong keys, or unintended keys, *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, NOT my character. Nothings takes me out of the "illusion" of being someone else faster than action combat. If I miss a dodge, AlBQuirky killed the character, not that character's skill in dodging. When *MY* skill trumps my character's, RPG is gone for me. Other player's mileage may vary
I know that not everyone agrees with me, or even if they do, may not enjoy MMOs the same as I want to. There needs to be action combat MMOs for players who enjoy that. BUT... contrary to popular belief, action combat is not the "neatest thing since sliced bread" as many players would have others believe. To me, it is a cancer started by Console FPS/Sports Game players that has infected the MMORPG genre.
The above is only my opinion and preference.
That's a coin with two sides. You could argue (as I would) that having the player skill dictate the character's actions (as opposed to RNG) INCREASES the player's connection with and empathy for their character. Why? Because you have refined control of them and their actions - a perfect ability to control who they are - right down to their combat style.
Very well put. Never really thought of it this way. But, it does make sense.
I just liked the bits about MMORPGs being physically exhausting, and that Wildstar is tab-target.
If video games are physically exhausting, I think you know what I would suggest.
I guess you could call Wildstar tab target by virtue of the fact that you can press tab and the target frame will go to an enemy, but the more traditional meaning of tab-target is that you press tab to target the enemy that all of your attacks will land on. Which is not the case in Wildstar. You still have to aim, and tabbing will just show you mob HP and a cast bar.
Lets just cut to the chase and get to the real point of this thread. Action oriented combat is geared toward the younger gamer, lets call them the 15 to 40 year old group.
Judging by my own experience, as an ancient gamer, I think around the age of 40 is where you begin to accept your own mortality as a gamer. Once you thought of yourself as a gaming god! Now, your 8 year old nephew comes along and wipes the floor with you, without even breaking a sweat. Are video games physically exhausting? At age 20 certainly not. At age 40 and up, if you are playing a game that requires constant mental and physical attention, then you will most definitely find your playing time becoming shorter and shorter, and quite possibly less enjoyable also. So it is a real fact that as gamers age, they will look for games that have a slower pace and that can be paused and analyzed, rather than simply require quick reflexes and acute mental concentration to succeed.
So all of this really says nothing except that action oriented combat has its place in MMO's for the younger crowd, just as the tab target/select abilities combat has it place as well. Which is more popular? I have no idea, as it would really depend on where the average age of the MMO gamer is at the moment. I can guarantee though that no matter how much you may like action type combat, there will come a time in your life when your skills will wane, and it becomes harder and harder to apply the concentration needed.
When it is all said and done, we need games that appeal to all types of gamers, young and old.
I enjoyed reading your reply sir. Especially the red part, because I think there is some truth to that. I'm considered the "young" crowd and I do love the action combat in mmos. I guess I have about 9-10 years before I can kiss them goodbye lol.
Originally posted by Jemcrystal The new trend is action and I hate it. If feels like another cop out; where devs became obsessed with something they could handle instead of doing anything I would have liked in future mmo's. I almost can't blame them tho. No one could solve the problem of lag on our shitty PC's so they focused on something else. A "how can we make mmo's different but still easy to make" board meeting.
Agreed. What I used to enjoy about MMORPGs is totally ignored by "action combat." I do not play them to test my reaction/mouse and keyboard mashing skills. I play them to be someone else. Action combat totally ignores this aspect.
What, exactly, does the game's combat system have to do with "being someone else?" Action combat doesn't ignore immersion and role-playing. It simply has nothing to do with it - and neither does "tab target" combat.A player's connection to their character is created through roleplaying, story, exploration, visual customization, and build customization. How does action combat "ignore" any of that?
The combat system has everything to do, since that is 80-95% of current games. Random Number Generation is the key. Ever hear of that? Action Combat lacks this feature, making the player's "skill" decide hits and misses, not the character's skills, developed in the game by choices the player makes.When I create a character in an action combat game (any game), I am NEVER connected to it. The phone rings and I jump, moving my mouse at the wrong at an inopportune time. *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, not my character (Joe Blow). If I "fat finger" my keyboard (which happens A LOT for me) hitting wrong keys, or unintended keys, *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, NOT my character. Nothings takes me out of the "illusion" of being someone else faster than action combat. If I miss a dodge, AlBQuirky killed the character, not that character's skill in dodging. When *MY* skill trumps my character's, RPG is gone for me. Other player's mileage may vary I know that not everyone agrees with me, or even if they do, may not enjoy MMOs the same as I want to. There needs to be action combat MMOs for players who enjoy that. BUT... contrary to popular belief, action combat is not the "neatest thing since sliced bread" as many players would have others believe. To me, it is a cancer started by Console FPS/Sports Game players that has infected the MMORPG genre.The above is only my opinion and preference.
That's a coin with two sides. You could argue (as I would) that having the player skill dictate the character's actions (as opposed to RNG) INCREASES the player's connection with and empathy for their character. Why? Because you have refined control of them and their actions - a perfect ability to control who they are - right down to their combat style.
I acknowledge what you say and agree. It really boils down to what any particular player seeks in an RPG experience. Many RPG players seek to "be in the game", as themselves. Others seek to be someone different. That will factor into how they feel about the RPG experience
Action combat (or more succinctly, hybrids) seems to be taking over newer titles, as it seems more players desire that kind of experience. Even tab target MMOs seem to have some type of keystroke/mouse mash dodge ability.
And there is a point where player input needs to be in the game. Telling your character, "Fireball... NOW!" is fine for me. But the player input quickly becomes overwhelming and tedious for me. I liked watching EQ's combat chat window and seeing "player dodges" or "player parries" or "player ripostes" scroll up the chatbox. I felt the way I built that character made a difference, instead of my own "skills."
Again, it is just personal preference
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
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I don't see much point in distinguishing a game like World of Warcraft from a game like GW2 or Tera, etc. Both lead to heart-pounding, finger twitching, sweaty battles.
Only at the level of EverQuest 1 would I bother drawing a distinction. EQ really took action down to root or run.
Either way, I've never felt even the slightest urge for an action mmorpg; too many great single player action games.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Doing the same thing over and over is why I think action combat is the bestest in the world. it breaks all the monotony with actually doing something other then going through the motions. Different stokes for different folks I guess.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
What, exactly, does the game's combat system have to do with "being someone else?" Action combat doesn't ignore immersion and role-playing. It simply has nothing to do with it - and neither does "tab target" combat.
A player's connection to their character is created through roleplaying, story, exploration, visual customization, and build customization. How does action combat "ignore" any of that?
I don't think difference combat make role-playing less role playing ,
IMO it give player more chose to make things complex so it raise the role-playing feel a lots . Though still not to point where you can reason with monster .
Only thing i don't like about current action combat is major skill chase after me even if i success evasion .
i also don't like the way they use "action combat" , mouse fixed shooting mode wasn't good IMO .
As RPG player i prefer more tactic and strategy .
When I create a character in an action combat game (any game), I am NEVER connected to it. The phone rings and I jump, moving my mouse at the wrong at an inopportune time. *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, not my character (Joe Blow). If I "fat finger" my keyboard (which happens A LOT for me) hitting wrong keys, or unintended keys, *I* (AlBQuirky) messed up, NOT my character. Nothings takes me out of the "illusion" of being someone else faster than action combat. If I miss a dodge, AlBQuirky killed the character, not that character's skill in dodging. When *MY* skill trumps my character's, RPG is gone for me. Other player's mileage may vary
I know that not everyone agrees with me, or even if they do, may not enjoy MMOs the same as I want to. There needs to be action combat MMOs for players who enjoy that. BUT... contrary to popular belief, action combat is not the "neatest thing since sliced bread" as many players would have others believe. To me, it is a cancer started by Console FPS/Sports Game players that has infected the MMORPG genre.
The above is only my opinion and preference.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
He is just looking for any excuse to dismiss action combat. It doesn't even have to make sense. He just wants to eat his hamburger and cheesy poofs while one hand clicking.
Personally, I can and do play both systems. I prefer action combat, but I can also enjoy tab target. The only thing, I can't tank in tab target games anymore. It's so boring. After having to actually block at the right times (in Tera for example). It's just hard for me to go back to a game where my tanking is based off a dice roll.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
That's a coin with two sides. You could argue (as I would) that having the player skill dictate the character's actions (as opposed to RNG) INCREASES the player's connection with and empathy for their character. Why? Because you have refined control of them and their actions - a perfect ability to control who they are - right down to their combat style.
I played a complex FFXI and i was constantly busy with no time to fiddle with more keys.I had to cntrl+ and ALT+ so no way i am also looking to aim my Reticle and look over my many macros something has to go and i choose the aiming anytime in a rpg because complexity and thinking is far more challenging and fun for me.
I look for Reticle action combat in first person shooters,like Quake or Unreal or Gears of War.In games like that you have your few set weapons and the rest is map skills,movement and trying to deceive your opponent,so your not forever looking at your keyboard you can maintain focus on the aiming.
Point is trying to create action combat within a complex mmorpg does more to create a cumbersome game than a fun game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Interestingly, this is the viewpoint that quite specifically divides the community into 'skill-based' and non-skill based advocates.
Action combat and 'skill-based' games function as an extension of the player's individual twitch skills; any advantages from gear or stats are minimized, as careful reflexes and well-timed strikes make the biggest difference. In many respects, it entirely removes the 'character' from the equation.
On the other hand, your preference, for roleplaying and combat purposes, focuses on statistics and gearing to provide distinction. If you have the Epic Tower Shield of Blocking and I have Wimpy Sword of Not-So-Piercing, the outcome is (mostly) clear decidedly independent of my input as a player.
Now, what I think is lacking from both perspectives is the idea of player input: both schemes are entirely dependent on one's input, just on much different time scales: The scenario you describe as preferable, one in which character skill is separated from player skill, is wholly dependent on player input, generally how much time you as a player are willing to devote to the game. Traditional MMO's essentially gate content, and gear, and statistical advantage to those that spend the most time, and where success is practically guaranteed on some level if you invest significant portions of time; you, and by extension your character; will far outpace other players who may be more adept personally, but lag temporally. So, too, enters to endless 'hardcore vs. casual' debate.
Player skill based games, action games, to a certain extent, tend to take the time scale of player input and bring it to the microscale. I think the general concept is that players want to be the source of, and reason for, character success, and feeling a moment-to-moment connection to that, and indeed, being rewarded for their personal skill, rather, fingertip agility, is perhaps more important than simply lagging behind others due simply to allocated time.
There is, of course, room for all these systems and more, but the psychology you hint at from the motivations each party may have towards one system or another really hints at a larger divide in how we structure our virtual worlds.
Just my 2 cents.
Playing a game for 5+ hours straight without a break is neither normal nor healthy. Well, at least not unless it's the sort of game that you can leave running while only intermittently paying attention to it--which few MMORPGs are.
What does FPS have to do anything? Don't people realize that there were tons of action combat games on the NES, SNES, and Genesis when they could barely do anything in first person?
Group combat works much better in GW2 than in any Trinity game I've seen, though that's partially because ArenaNet put considerable effort into making it practical to find a group and most MMORPGs don't.
That's a big problem for PVP. But you can cover up any fixed amount of latency for PVE purposes by giving mobs a reaction time of sorts during which information is transmitted.
Strange topic title considering action mmos caught on years ago and are widely regarded as an established sub genre.
When games try to offer built-in controller support, it usually doesn't work, anyway. Maybe they can make it work right for a few particular gamepads, but there are so many out there that it isn't practical to test for everything. Rather, you rely on support from the controller vendor, as they can make software work right for the few pieces of hardware that they sell. I've played Champions Online, Guild Wars 2, TERA, and FFXIV with a gamepad just fine. Ranged attacks in TERA are the only thing notably awkward of those games.
If sufficiently determined, you can make considerable portions of a lot of games work with a gamepad. I've done so with Civilization IV and Uncharted Waters Online, for example.
Action combat games need an awful lot of random number generation, too, you know. I can't think of any game ever made in any genre that wouldn't have benefited from a hefty dose of random number generation, though sometimes you can get it implicitly from perturbations in the timing of when players do things. A lot depends on what you do with said random numbers.
Lets just cut to the chase and get to the real point of this thread. Action oriented combat is geared toward the younger gamer, lets call them the 15 to 40 year old group.
Judging by my own experience, as an ancient gamer, I think around the age of 40 is where you begin to accept your own mortality as a gamer. Once you thought of yourself as a gaming god! Now, your 8 year old nephew comes along and wipes the floor with you, without even breaking a sweat. Are video games physically exhausting? At age 20 certainly not. At age 40 and up, if you are playing a game that requires constant mental and physical attention, then you will most definitely find your playing time becoming shorter and shorter, and quite possibly less enjoyable also. So it is a real fact that as gamers age, they will look for games that have a slower pace and that can be paused and analyzed, rather than simply require quick reflexes and acute mental concentration to succeed.
So all of this really says nothing except that action oriented combat has its place in MMO's for the younger crowd, just as the tab target/select abilities combat has it place as well. Which is more popular? I have no idea, as it would really depend on where the average age of the MMO gamer is at the moment. I can guarantee though that no matter how much you may like action type combat, there will come a time in your life when your skills will wane, and it becomes harder and harder to apply the concentration needed.
When it is all said and done, we need games that appeal to all types of gamers, young and old.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I could see you posting that if it was 2010, because, well... who knew, right?
However, it caught on years ago and gave birth to ARPGs, MOBAs and the action-based MMOs we see now (ex: GW2, TERA, Wildstar).
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Very well put. Never really thought of it this way. But, it does make sense.
I enjoyed reading your reply sir. Especially the red part, because I think there is some truth to that. I'm considered the "young" crowd and I do love the action combat in mmos. I guess I have about 9-10 years before I can kiss them goodbye lol.
Action combat (or more succinctly, hybrids) seems to be taking over newer titles, as it seems more players desire that kind of experience. Even tab target MMOs seem to have some type of keystroke/mouse mash dodge ability.
And there is a point where player input needs to be in the game. Telling your character, "Fireball... NOW!" is fine for me. But the player input quickly becomes overwhelming and tedious for me. I liked watching EQ's combat chat window and seeing "player dodges" or "player parries" or "player ripostes" scroll up the chatbox. I felt the way I built that character made a difference, instead of my own "skills."
Again, it is just personal preference
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR