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Has kickstarter actually produced any finished mmos yet?

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  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by psiic

     

    As part of Generation X I would actually argue that Baby Boomers are by far the most entitled generation.  

    They basically created vast liabilities by living beyond their means that every subsequent generation must pay off.  Be they pensions, environmental, general over consumption etc etc.  

    The important difference is the baby boomers are capitalist, this generation are socialist. 

    Socialism doesn't mean everyone gets As. it means everyone gets Cs.

     

    problem is liberalism and entitlement demands a curve.

     

    image

  • handlewithcarehandlewithcare hartenbosPosts: 322Member
    shroud of the avatar will release in a view months and its going to be good.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,657Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

    Oh please. Knock off the "get off my lawn" rant. This generation is just as entitled and stupid as any other since the last world war. 

    Actually, entitlement is something the Millenials are notorious for. 

     

    US Chamber of Commerce - The Millennial Generation Research Review 

    http://www.uschamberfoundation.org/millennial-generation-research-review

    "They bring a new generational personality—done of optimism, structure, team orientation, and a confidence bordering on entitlement."

    "Millennials score high on IQ tests. They also score higher on such traits as extraversion, self-esteem, self-liking, high expectations, and assertiveness. These traits are purported to often lead to narcissism and entitlement."

     

    Wall Street Journal - The 'Trophy Kids' Go to Work

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB122455219391652725

    "More than 85% of hiring managers and human-resource executives said they feel that millennials have a stronger sense of entitlement than older workers, according to a survey by CareerBuilder.com. The generation's greatest expectations: higher pay (74% of respondents); flexible work schedules (61%); a promotion within a year (56%); and more vacation or personal time (50%)."

     

    US News - Millennial Workers: Entitled, Needy, Self-Centered?

    http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/2012/06/27/millennial-workers-entitled-needy-self-centered

    A short but good article with tips for both Baby Boomers and Millenials on how to *gasp* try to understand where the other is coming from. 

     

     

    And for a dose of humor...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz0o9clVQu8 - A guide for Baby Boomers

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1a6M3dBNwc - A guide for Millennials

     

     

    Noticeably absent from most research and discussion on the topic is GenX because, well, honestly, we've got our door key and a TV dinner in the freezer - we'll be fine. If only mTV would go back to just playing music videos...

     

     

     

     

     

    As part of Generation X I would actually argue that Baby Boomers are by far the most entitled generation.  

    They basically created vast liabilities by living beyond their means that every subsequent generation must pay off.  Be they pensions, environmental, general over consumption etc etc.  

    They definitely mde a mess, but I don't see how sense of entitlement plays into that. They're only asking for what they worked for, no? Very different from feeling owed from the start. Whatever the case, they're the generation that gave us ballpoint pens, the integrated circuit and rocketry, so I'm willing to give them a pass on everything else. 

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • JoeyjojoshabaduJoeyjojoshabadu BuderimPosts: 161Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

    Oh please. Knock off the "get off my lawn" rant. This generation is just as entitled and stupid as any other since the last world war. 

    Actually, entitlement is something the Millenials are notorious for. 

     

    US Chamber of Commerce - The Millennial Generation Research Review 

    http://www.uschamberfoundation.org/millennial-generation-research-review

    "They bring a new generational personality—done of optimism, structure, team orientation, and a confidence bordering on entitlement."

    "Millennials score high on IQ tests. They also score higher on such traits as extraversion, self-esteem, self-liking, high expectations, and assertiveness. These traits are purported to often lead to narcissism and entitlement."

     

    Wall Street Journal - The 'Trophy Kids' Go to Work

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB122455219391652725

    "More than 85% of hiring managers and human-resource executives said they feel that millennials have a stronger sense of entitlement than older workers, according to a survey by CareerBuilder.com. The generation's greatest expectations: higher pay (74% of respondents); flexible work schedules (61%); a promotion within a year (56%); and more vacation or personal time (50%)."

     

    US News - Millennial Workers: Entitled, Needy, Self-Centered?

    http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/2012/06/27/millennial-workers-entitled-needy-self-centered

    A short but good article with tips for both Baby Boomers and Millenials on how to *gasp* try to understand where the other is coming from. 

     

     

    And for a dose of humor...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz0o9clVQu8 - A guide for Baby Boomers

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1a6M3dBNwc - A guide for Millennials

     

     

    Noticeably absent from most research and discussion on the topic is GenX because, well, honestly, we've got our door key and a TV dinner in the freezer - we'll be fine. If only mTV would go back to just playing music videos...

     

     

     

     

     

    Please - opinion pieces?

    Two can play at that game (took me 20 seconds).

     

    http://www.chicagonow.com/lists-that-actually-matter/2013/06/7-reasons-baby-boomers-are-the-worst-generation/#image/1

     

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/10171591/10-Baby-Boomer-entitlements-todays-youth-wont-have.html

     

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/opinion/keller-the-entitled-generation.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

     

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/10875222/The-baby-boomers-too-selfish-to-volunteer.html

     

    http://www.sentryjournal.com/2014/01/06/baby-boomers-the-selfish-generation/

     

    http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2013/10/us-youth-urged-to-attack-baby-boomer-greed/

     

    I don't necessarily agree with any of these any more than the opinion pieces you posted. Point is, older, though-ossified folk have been pillorying the younger generations since we came down from the trees. Probably before then. And it's primarily a function of various cognitive biases rather than based on anything concrete.

     

  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Zod, CAPosts: 743Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by ryvendark

    Nope

    so far they're all just " going to be good"

    Well the "Kickstarter outpouring" started around 2012 and sadly decent MMO's aren't created in 2 years especially with the size of these indie teams with obvious funding issues.

    Just a reminder for the few who want to understand the why instead of sarcastically spewing the why nots.

     

    I'm not familiar with any successfully funded MMO on Kickstarter  where the MMO wasn't already at least 2-4 years into development.

    The only one I can think of might be RG's project, but they seem like they were already reasonably into development as the Kickstarter video shows playable content.

    If a KS campaign got funded and there wasn't already a couple years of development to show for it, I am curious what kind of approach they used to get an in-concept MMO project funded. Do you have a link to any of those?

    I'm in Shroud of the Avatar and it's definitely not a hoax, is a good game getting better each patch. It will definitely get released as a finished product, no doubt about that. And as you said, it's at least a game you got gameplay videos before they asked you for money, unlike many others which are only wishes and promises.

    I'm also looking forward to Shroud of the Avatar.

    Loktofiet, a good example would be Camelot Unchained. The kickstarter was launched from just an idea with no screenshots or videos to supplement the campaign.

    Camelot Unchained had an entire team working on the project and prototypes of several systems already publicly available at the time of the KS campaign. They also said Camelot Unchained is launching in 2015. Either they did have a good bit of development time under their belt, or they'll be the first ones to make or break your statement that a decent MMO isn't created in 2 years. Looking forward to the outcome of that. 

     

    My point is whether the team has been together or not no meaningful progress can be had without funding. There can be a team that's been together for 2 years and in that time drew up all kinds of neat idea's and panned out what direction they want to go in. It's still going to take atleast 3 years to develop a decent fully operational MMO (and this is with a large team)

    Op wanted to know what kickstarter MMO's have been completed and my point was given the time some of these MMO's received their funding there shouldn't be any completed.

    As somebody mentioned earlier, Camelot Unchained might be the only exception because there is hardly any PvE which cuts time and cost down significantly. This won't break my statement...

    image
  • askdabossaskdaboss LondonPosts: 631Member Common
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by PioneerStew

    As part of Generation X I would actually argue that Baby Boomers are by far the most entitled generation.  

    They basically created vast liabilities by living beyond their means that every subsequent generation must pay off.  Be they pensions, environmental, general over consumption etc etc.  

    They definitely mde a mess, but I don't see how sense of entitlement plays into that. They're only asking for what they worked for, no? Very different from feeling owed from the start. Whatever the case, they're the generation that gave us ballpoint pens, the integrated circuit and rocketry, so I'm willing to give them a pass on everything else. 

    Yes, the difference is that any non-Baby Boomer (working the same as the Baby Boomers did) who too "only asks to get what they work for" gets told disdainfully by Baby Boomers they are "entitled".

    Or simply put: "Sorry the pie has been shared already, here are some crumbs and don't complain about it you entitled kid".

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,657Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

    Please - opinion pieces?

    Two can play at that game (took me 20 seconds).

    I thought that the inclusion of humor videos from both sides of the Boomer/Millenial fence and a dig at my own generation would make it clear I'm not invested in any side of the argument, only pointing out they have a reputation for entitlement, warranted or not. 

    Sorry you got butthurt, Joey. :( 

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Posts: 1,536Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by psiic

    Seems like most are always needing more funding, and pretty much all of them are at least a year behind where they originally projected being by now.

     

    Personally I've made the personal decision that I threw away all the money I spent on kickstarter to con men and scammers.

     

    I've decided crowd funding is nothing but a criminal enterprise most likely originally designed to launder money.

     

    Any legitimate and solid business model does not have to come begging funding from the consumers.

     

    If you have a solid and workable business model there are tons of banks and investors out there looking to make an investment or business loan. If the business model is too weak or non-existent, the managers are clueless, or have zero business experience then it ends up begging for " free " crowdfunding.

     

    If there developers were even remotely legitimate they would be offering an investors return on our money rather that a T-shirt or in game decal. 

    Think you need to cut back on the melodrama juice there.

    That's an awfully myopic, and ridiculously cynical view of it.

    Because some games you personally backed haven't panned out well, you're going to damn the whole crowd funding thing as "a criminal enterprise originally designed to launder money"? Seriously?

    You sound like a scorned lover, lashing out at all women/men because you've had a streak of bad relationships.

    You do realize that many AAA projects get canned before they're completed? Even those backed by Publishers and/or investors, with loans provided by banks - what you consider a "workable business model". Sometimes things just don't work out.

    You do realize that many successful Kickstarters have been completed and released their products, or otherwise went on to achieve what they were seeking funding for?

    A friend of mine raised almost 900% of what they were seeking, to start a small business selling animal-related products, with a portion of the proceeds going toward helping rescued or otherwise "less adoptable" animals find homes... all of which they have already fulfilled and are doing. Guess I'll have to tell her that she's really nothing but a scam artist and a money launderer, because psiic on mmorpg.com said so. I'm sure she'll find that enlightening. 

    Actually, she'll probably just laugh at the paranoid stupidity of it.

    Along with the myriad others whose crowdfunding has allowed them to achieve exactly what they set out to do.

    But, you know... because you had a bad run with a few games... obviously they're all just charlatans looking to steal  your money. Yeah. Of course.

    Are there scams out there? Wouldn't surprise me if there are. However, "some" does not equal "all".

    Also, a failed project, or a project meeting delays (which even AAA projects with "workable business plans" run into), does not make it a "scam". 

  • JamesPJamesP Portland, MEPosts: 435Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by psiic
    Originally posted by Gel214th
    Originally posted by psiic

    Seems like most are always needing more funding, and pretty much all of them are at least a year behind where they originally projected being by now. 

    Personally I've made the personal decision that I threw away all the money I spent on kickstarter to con men and scammers. 

    I've decided crowd funding is nothing but a criminal enterprise most likely originally designed to launder money. 

    Any legitimate and solid business model does not have to come begging funding from the consumers. 

    If you have a solid and workable business model there are tons of banks and investors out there looking to make an investment or business loan. If the business model is too weak or non-existent, the managers are clueless, or have zero business experience then it ends up begging for " free " crowdfunding. 

    If there developers were even remotely legitimate they would be offering an investors return on our money rather that a T-shirt or in game decal. 

    That's a fairly naive view of the business world Nowadays just about every major breakthrough and tech company started by getting funding from someone. Whether friends and family, venture capitalists, or crowd funding. 

    There have been numerous successes, and several products that have been brought to market. And there are products that did not make it. That isn't because the persons that ran these ventures were con men.

    Something like an MMO is an extremely difficult product to develop and bring to market by a non-professional team of many persons. So it's going to be an uphill climb from the very beginning, regardless of how wonderful the ideas and concepts are. 

    If you have ever taken the time and the risk to start a company with an idea you would perhaps understand. My thinking is that you have never done this, and speak from a position of ignorance on the subject. 

    Without crowdfunding, many projects would never get far enough to attract Venture Capitalist investors, and certainly never far enough to secure a loan. 

    If the prospect of paying money for the development of something you want, and have that be brought to market, is a concept that you aren't comfortable with, then say so. A t-shirt, special mention, etc. aren't the reason you are paying a mere 10 or 15 usd. It is to get the finished product, eventually, which otherwise would never get made.

    Don't crap on the people who have the passion and drive to try to make their own dreams a reality, and disparage them by labelling them all as con men. 

    I have actually written close to 30 separate and unique business plans.  

    Taken 17 of them to presentation.  

    Of the 17 I have presented to banks and investors, only 4 received funding. Of those 4, two failed within the first year.

    The third went under within 5 years, and the fourth has now been in business for 11 years with some success.

    I know exactly what I am talking about. 

    Business is tough, its risky, and there are tons of failures for every success as there should be.

    When you remove the risk/reward aspect of business, you end up with a pile of shit where weak, mismanaged, undisciplined, idiots are running companies and saturating a market with craptastic ideas that only make it harder for real companies with real experience to produce real solid projects.

     

    But this is the entitled generation where a bunch of young people think everyone should be given everything they want even if they have not earned it, and do not deserve it. 

    A generation too stupid to realize that by taking away winners and losers, by making it so the weak survive, all they are doing is making everyone else themselves included weaker.

     

    I do not manage my business because I am not qualified to manage a business. 

    I do not do the accounting for my business because I am not qualified to do the books for a business. 

    Unlike these kickstarts I run a real business where I hire qualified people to do a  job they are trained to do. 

    Unlike a kickstart I have a real payroll account, with a real bank, and pay my people with real money.

    Unlike a kickstart I have accountability to my lender and to my employees.

    Unlike a kickstart I keep exact books, and pay the taxes I owe in a timely manner.

    Unlike a kickstart if I produce crap I do not get paid.

     

    Amazes me how some of you young people think socialism, marxism, communism is something new and fantastic, you created. 

     

     

    Actually SOME people just don't want Investors breathing down their backs telling them how to do their job so they get a return on their investments. When you have Investors your forced to play it safe and you end up with cookie cutter MMOs of MMOs that have worked in the past. There is no room for true creative innovation. KickStarter has paved the way for us Indies to get the funding we need with out the negative aspects of Investors.

    Company Owner
    MMO Interactive
    Greed Monger

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Those same investors also cause accountability , planning, follow through and scrutiny. Things that are helpful to prevent the investors from being screwed over and help with the success of the company.

    Crowd funding does not really have any safeguards or the heel thirst safeguards give.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Err help that

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • Viper482Viper482 Somewhere, FLPosts: 995Member Uncommon
    MMO's take much longer to finish than sp games do so no surprise none are finished yet. Camelot Unchained is coming along great, the backers got to play a pre-alpha version last weekend and it was surprisingly stable and little to no lag. Everything is on schedule.
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