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Has kickstarter actually produced any finished mmos yet?

2

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  • Gel214thGel214th Miami, FLPosts: 180Member Common
    Originally posted by psiic

    Seems like most are always needing more funding, and pretty much all of them are at least a year behind where they originally projected being by now. 

    Personally I've made the personal decision that I threw away all the money I spent on kickstarter to con men and scammers. 

    I've decided crowd funding is nothing but a criminal enterprise most likely originally designed to launder money. 

    Any legitimate and solid business model does not have to come begging funding from the consumers. 

    If you have a solid and workable business model there are tons of banks and investors out there looking to make an investment or business loan. If the business model is too weak or non-existent, the managers are clueless, or have zero business experience then it ends up begging for " free " crowdfunding. 

    If there developers were even remotely legitimate they would be offering an investors return on our money rather that a T-shirt or in game decal. 

    That's a fairly naive view of the business world Nowadays just about every major breakthrough and tech company started by getting funding from someone. Whether friends and family, venture capitalists, or crowd funding. 

    There have been numerous successes, and several products that have been brought to market. And there are products that did not make it. That isn't because the persons that ran these ventures were con men.

    Something like an MMO is an extremely difficult product to develop and bring to market by a non-professional team of many persons. So it's going to be an uphill climb from the very beginning, regardless of how wonderful the ideas and concepts are. 

    If you have ever taken the time and the risk to start a company with an idea you would perhaps understand. My thinking is that you have never done this, and speak from a position of ignorance on the subject. 

    Without crowdfunding, many projects would never get far enough to attract Venture Capitalist investors, and certainly never far enough to secure a loan. 

    If the prospect of paying money for the development of something you want, and have that be brought to market, is a concept that you aren't comfortable with, then say so. A t-shirt, special mention, etc. aren't the reason you are paying a mere 10 or 15 usd. It is to get the finished product, eventually, which otherwise would never get made.

    Don't crap on the people who have the passion and drive to try to make their own dreams a reality, and disparage them by labelling them all as con men. 

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gel214th

    If you have ever taken the time and the risk to start a company with an idea you would perhaps understand. My thinking is that you have never done this, and speak from a position of ignorance on the subject. 

    I did, and not only once.

    Without crowdfunding, many projects would never get far enough to attract Venture Capitalist investors, and certainly never far enough to secure a loan. 

    That would most likely be a GOOD thing, actually. Crap remains where it belongs, in the trashcan.

    Don't crap on the people who have the passion and drive to try to make their own dreams a reality, and disparage them by labelling them all as con men. 

    I crap on people who take other people's money on promises they can't hold. I crap on people who steal money and never deliver the product the customer paid for.

    So yeah, I crap on most kickstarters. But I've also given money to a couple of them... which all had undeniable proof that the project was an existing, running game and not just some concept picture which would never make it to a 3D engine. Shroud of the Avatar is one of them.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon

    It will be interesting in the next couple years to see the inaugural class of kickstarter mmos hit the scene. Wonder if it will make any waves, or at least warrant the waves they have already created.

  • JamesPJamesP Portland, MEPosts: 435Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kangaroomouse

    Not so far and there are many disasters on the horizon.

    ----

    Greed Monger - Seems to be dead and there are no news or ALPHA/BETA which was promised more than a year ago. I feel bad for people that paid $500 or more for virtual land and i feel bad for MarkeeDragon who promoted it and probably invested too.

    Markeedragon Interview

    Kickstarter

    ----

    The Repopulation - This game had TWO Kickstarter campaigns and still looks horrible. At least there is a working Alpha and you can actually "play" it (so i am told). It is far from finished and i hope it eventually will be polished and finished.

    Kickstarter #1

    Kickstarter #2

    ----

    Shroud of the Avatar - While i love Ultima, this game is a joke. Made with the Unity engine consisting of tiny zones, no open world, bad graphics and animations, it all looks rather amateurish to me and nothing like i expected from Lord British himself. Very disappointing.

    Kickstarter

    ----

    Those are just a few, but i have no hope for any of the others to be actually good or finished ever.

     

     

    Greed Monger is FAR from dead... Yes we ran into delays for many different reasons but we are still hard at work and still fully intend/expect to release a great MMO.

    Company Owner
    MMO Interactive
    Greed Monger

  • KangaroomouseKangaroomouse MonacoPosts: 394Member
    Originally posted by JamesP
    Originally posted by Kangaroomouse

    Not so far and there are many disasters on the horizon.

    ----

    Greed Monger - Seems to be dead and there are no news or ALPHA/BETA which was promised more than a year ago. I feel bad for people that paid $500 or more for virtual land and i feel bad for MarkeeDragon who promoted it and probably invested too.

    Markeedragon Interview

    Kickstarter

    Greed Monger is FAR from dead... Yes we ran into delays for many different reasons but we are still hard at work and still fully intend/expect to release a great MMO.

    You been saying that for 2 years and have nothing to show for it.

    ----

    You switched Engines from Unity to Hero back to Unity and now you doing Voxel based. There is nothing on your website that shows a game in development just very old videos from old engines, more begging for money and a forum that is almost completely dead.

    ----

    Where are the regular updates? Where is the ALPHA and BETA. 2 years behind schedule. No offense but do you really think people take you serious when you say you going to release a great MMO?

  • AkulasAkulas GoldcoastPosts: 1,619Member Uncommon
    Shround of the Avatar, The Repopulation, Shards Online are going to be released and good if you like what the games have to offer but the answer is no none has produced any finished mmos that I'm aware of.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • JamesPJamesP Portland, MEPosts: 435Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kangaroomouse
    Originally posted by JamesP
    Originally posted by Kangaroomouse

    Not so far and there are many disasters on the horizon.

    ----

    Greed Monger - Seems to be dead and there are no news or ALPHA/BETA which was promised more than a year ago. I feel bad for people that paid $500 or more for virtual land and i feel bad for MarkeeDragon who promoted it and probably invested too.

    Markeedragon Interview

    Kickstarter

    Greed Monger is FAR from dead... Yes we ran into delays for many different reasons but we are still hard at work and still fully intend/expect to release a great MMO.

    You been saying that for 2 years and have nothing to show for it.

    ----

    You switched Engines from Unity to Hero back to Unity and now you doing Voxel based. There is nothing on your website that shows a game in development just very old videos from old engines, more begging for money and a forum that is almost completely dead.

    ----

    Where are the regular updates? Where is the ALPHA and BETA. 2 years behind schedule. No offense but do you really think people take you serious when you say you going to release a great MMO?

    The last 2 years we have been working on Prototypes for many of our core systems. We have been gathering together the best tools in order to ensure we have everything we need to create the MMO we set out to make. All of this SHOULD have been done before we ever went public with GM. We went public way too soon and as a result we are roughly a Year and a half late in getting our Alpha launched. Lessons have been learned and we are making the most of what we have. Future Projects we will do things differently.

    Yes we switched Engines from Unity to Hero then back to Unity... Yes we are using a Custom Voxel Terrain Engine FOR Unity3d. The Game Engine we are using hasn't changed just the Terrain Engine. The default Terrain Engine in Unity is highly out dated and isn't able to do alot of what we want to be able to do with it. The Voxel Terrain Engine allows us to do alot of extra stuff like seamless caves, over hangs, ect. that traditional heightmap based Terrain Engines aren't able to do.

    As for regular Updates we are working to increase the amount of updates we post. It's hard to get updates out with not having a PR Rep. or Community Manager. But we are working to improve in this area.

    Company Owner
    MMO Interactive
    Greed Monger

  • AzothAzoth montreal, QCPosts: 722Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JamesP
    Originally posted by Kangaroomouse
    Originally posted by JamesP
    Originally posted by Kangaroomouse

    Not so far and there are many disasters on the horizon.

    ----

    Greed Monger - Seems to be dead and there are no news or ALPHA/BETA which was promised more than a year ago. I feel bad for people that paid $500 or more for virtual land and i feel bad for MarkeeDragon who promoted it and probably invested too.

    Markeedragon Interview

    Kickstarter

    Greed Monger is FAR from dead... Yes we ran into delays for many different reasons but we are still hard at work and still fully intend/expect to release a great MMO.

    You been saying that for 2 years and have nothing to show for it.

    ----

    You switched Engines from Unity to Hero back to Unity and now you doing Voxel based. There is nothing on your website that shows a game in development just very old videos from old engines, more begging for money and a forum that is almost completely dead.

    ----

    Where are the regular updates? Where is the ALPHA and BETA. 2 years behind schedule. No offense but do you really think people take you serious when you say you going to release a great MMO?

    The last 2 years we have been working on Prototypes for many of our core systems. We have been gathering together the best tools in order to ensure we have everything we need to create the MMO we set out to make. All of this SHOULD have been done before we ever went public with GM. We went public way too soon and as a result we are roughly a Year and a half late in getting our Alpha launched. Lessons have been learned and we are making the most of what we have. Future Projects we will do things differently.

    Yes we switched Engines from Unity to Hero then back to Unity... Yes we are using a Custom Voxel Terrain Engine FOR Unity3d. The Game Engine we are using hasn't changed just the Terrain Engine. The default Terrain Engine in Unity is highly out dated and isn't able to do alot of what we want to be able to do with it. The Voxel Terrain Engine allows us to do alot of extra stuff like seamless caves, over hangs, ect. that traditional heightmap based Terrain Engines aren't able to do.

    As for regular Updates we are working to increase the amount of updates we post. It's hard to get updates out with not having a PR Rep. or Community Manager. But we are working to improve in this area.

    Doubt you need a PR rep. to post progress on a project more than once every 6 months ...

  • JamesPJamesP Portland, MEPosts: 435Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Azoth
    Originally posted by JamesP
    Originally posted by Kangaroomouse
    Originally posted by JamesP
    Originally posted by Kangaroomouse

    Not so far and there are many disasters on the horizon.

    ----

    Greed Monger - Seems to be dead and there are no news or ALPHA/BETA which was promised more than a year ago. I feel bad for people that paid $500 or more for virtual land and i feel bad for MarkeeDragon who promoted it and probably invested too.

    Markeedragon Interview

    Kickstarter

    Greed Monger is FAR from dead... Yes we ran into delays for many different reasons but we are still hard at work and still fully intend/expect to release a great MMO.

    You been saying that for 2 years and have nothing to show for it.

    ----

    You switched Engines from Unity to Hero back to Unity and now you doing Voxel based. There is nothing on your website that shows a game in development just very old videos from old engines, more begging for money and a forum that is almost completely dead.

    ----

    Where are the regular updates? Where is the ALPHA and BETA. 2 years behind schedule. No offense but do you really think people take you serious when you say you going to release a great MMO?

    The last 2 years we have been working on Prototypes for many of our core systems. We have been gathering together the best tools in order to ensure we have everything we need to create the MMO we set out to make. All of this SHOULD have been done before we ever went public with GM. We went public way too soon and as a result we are roughly a Year and a half late in getting our Alpha launched. Lessons have been learned and we are making the most of what we have. Future Projects we will do things differently.

    Yes we switched Engines from Unity to Hero then back to Unity... Yes we are using a Custom Voxel Terrain Engine FOR Unity3d. The Game Engine we are using hasn't changed just the Terrain Engine. The default Terrain Engine in Unity is highly out dated and isn't able to do alot of what we want to be able to do with it. The Voxel Terrain Engine allows us to do alot of extra stuff like seamless caves, over hangs, ect. that traditional heightmap based Terrain Engines aren't able to do.

    As for regular Updates we are working to increase the amount of updates we post. It's hard to get updates out with not having a PR Rep. or Community Manager. But we are working to improve in this area.

    Doubt you need a PR rep. to post progress on a project more than once every 6 months ...

    I post Progress Reports to our Forum and once in a while to our Facebook page. Our Website rarely get's updated since our PR Rep. left for personal Reasons however our forum like I said get's updates posted to fairly often. Jason sent out an update to our KickStarter backers this past Friday and I posted it to our Forum the same day.

    Here is a link to the update on our Forum:

    http://www.greedmonger.com/forum/showthread.php?1990-We-are-still-here!-Some-updates-on-our-progress

    I also posted an update on what happened over the month of June:

    http://www.greedmonger.com/forum/showthread.php?1989-June-2014-Update

    Company Owner
    MMO Interactive
    Greed Monger

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,788Member Uncommon

    MMORPGs on Kickstarter tend to be not so much outright scams as overly optimistic developers who intend to deliver what they promise but simply can't.  This, of course, is partially why only a small fraction of them ever get funded.  It's likely that the ones that do get funded tend to be more capable of delivering what is promised than those that don't get funded, as the track record of people involved affects whether a game gets funded.

    But just because a game is still in development and still making progress doesn't mean that it is going to launch.  What happens if a game is halfway done but nowhere near ready for release and you run out of money?  Programming projects are notorious for being later and more expensive than anticipated.

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by ryvendark

    Nope

    so far they're all just " going to be good"

    Well the "Kickstarter outpouring" started around 2012 and sadly decent MMO's aren't created in 2 years especially with the size of these indie teams with obvious funding issues.

    Just a reminder for the few who want to understand the why instead of sarcastically spewing the why nots.

     

    I'm not familiar with any successfully funded MMO on Kickstarter  where the MMO wasn't already at least 2-4 years into development.

    The only one I can think of might be RG's project, but they seem like they were already reasonably into development as the Kickstarter video shows playable content.

    If a KS campaign got funded and there wasn't already a couple years of development to show for it, I am curious what kind of approach they used to get an in-concept MMO project funded. Do you have a link to any of those?

     

    Sorry Loktofeit, but you are really off with that one.

    - Camelot Unchained just finished now their engine. They don't have any major system working at the moment.. just engine, server architecture, and a few tools. No combat system, no classes, no nothing. They started with or a little bit before kickstarter.. though the team existed and made another game.. March to Oz or anything like that.

    - Shroud of the Avater basicly started with the kickstarter campain.. no real development before that.. they made some mobile games before.

    - Pathfinder Online. Did a kickstarter for a Techdemo.. finished the techdemo and did with that the kickstarter for the actual game.. no real work before kickstarter

    And that's basicly about noteworthy kickstarter MMORPGs(ok, you could count Elite:Dangerous and Star Citizen.. and those did actually something before the kickstarter.. even if it was in the case of Star Citizen not that much.. and just a few month of basicly Chris Roberts alone). All of them have with additional funding from other sources something around $5-10 million.. and that is really the minimum to make a mmo.. and of course not of the production quality comparable to games with ten time and more the budget.(ESO, Wildstar, and so on).

    And if someone counts kickstater projects like Greed Monger or Repopulation as actual MMORPG development.. with kickstarter funding of below $100k.. if someone really believe that you can make anything with $100k. One serious software developer earns above $100k a year.. and he will not make much in that year.

    I am amazed what repopulation actually does show, and that they claim they have 30 developer working on that project.. are those all hobbiest and volunteers? Because with $100k funding from 2 crowd funding sessions you can't actually pay any wages. But that you can't expect anything from that money is a given,  at least i will be surprised if they actually release a working MMO, in whatever quality.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by ryvendark

    Nope

    so far they're all just " going to be good"

    Well the "Kickstarter outpouring" started around 2012 and sadly decent MMO's aren't created in 2 years especially with the size of these indie teams with obvious funding issues.

    Just a reminder for the few who want to understand the why instead of sarcastically spewing the why nots.

    I'm not familiar with any successfully funded MMO on Kickstarter  where the MMO wasn't already at least 2-4 years into development.

    The only one I can think of might be RG's project, but they seem like they were already reasonably into development as the Kickstarter video shows playable content.

    If a KS campaign got funded and there wasn't already a couple years of development to show for it, I am curious what kind of approach they used to get an in-concept MMO project funded. Do you have a link to any of those?

    Sorry Loktofeit, but you are really off with that one.

    - Camelot Unchained just finished now their engine. They don't have any major system working at the moment.. just engine, server architecture, and a few tools. No combat system, no classes, no nothing. They started with or a little bit before kickstarter.. though the team existed and made another game.. March to Oz or anything like that.

    - Shroud of the Avater basicly started with the kickstarter campain.. no real development before that.. they made some mobile games before.

    - Pathfinder Online. Did a kickstarter for a Techdemo.. finished the techdemo and did with that the kickstarter for the actual game.. no real work before kickstarter

    And that's basicly about noteworthy kickstarter MMORPGs(ok, you could count Elite:Dangerous and Star Citizen.. and those did actually something before the kickstarter.. even if it was in the case of Star Citizen not that much.. and just a few month of basicly Chris Roberts alone). All of them have with additional funding from other sources something around $5-10 million.. and that is really the minimum to make a mmo.. and of course not of the production quality comparable to games with ten time and more the budget.(ESO, Wildstar, and so on).

    And if someone counts kickstater projects like Greed Monger or Repopulation as actual MMORPG development.. with kickstarter funding of below $100k.. if someone really believe that you can make anything with $100k. One serious software developer earns above $100k a year.. and he will not make much in that year.

    I am amazed what repopulation actually does show, and that they claim they have 30 developer working on that project.. are those all hobbiest and volunteers? Because with $100k funding from 2 crowd funding sessions you can't actually pay any wages. But that you can't expect anything from that money is a given,  at least i will be surprised if they actually release a working MMO, in whatever quality.

    CU - didn't say the engine was complete. As stated in my other post, they had a team already togetherh and working on it, creating prototypes of various components. They've documented a lot of it in the videos they released throughout the project's funding period. 

    Shroud of the Avatar - already addressed that one. Team and development were already in progress before the kickstarter. 

    Pathfinder Online - You're agreeing with me there, you realize that, right? Ryan didn't do the kickstarter for the MMO until they had a working tech demo, which came well after organizing the team and laying the groundwork in 2011. 

     

    On The Repopulation, I see that as a shining example of what other indie and hobbyist projects should aspire to. They're focused. They are realistic about their goals. They are realistic about their abilities. They are at the trade shows, they are talking with the 3rd party and middleware people, and they have built a pretty solid team so far. Basically, they've got their act together and it shows. 

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon

    Investing in an mmo started though Kickstarter is a game of patience. Developing an mmo takes serious time. As I am sure with many Kickstarter projects there will be those that are simply vaporware ... but I see this no different than every other game being made. We see many fail long before their planned release date.

     

    2 such games as other's have mentioned are Repopulation (and to a lesser extent Pathfinder) and Camelot Unchained where they started their projects on KS at very different times in their development. Some crowd fund to further a project already further along it's development path while others are to launch development from the beginning. The greater risk for the backer certainly appears to be the latter. That said Camelot Unchained certainly appears to have legs as they have been very forthcoming with their development process and planning. Other projects simply appear to be unorganized messes or perhaps even scams.

     

    Backing an mmo through Kickstarter is high risk. It is a game in a high risk genre for gaming and has a very long development time. Many of the games listed by others do indeed appear to be legit however (at least should make it to launch). The secret certainly appears to be about focusing on their core audience and proper project management.

     

    2015-2016 will be very interesting. Possibly some shocking successes, crushing failures or more than likely a mixed bag of results .. but how is this any different than traditional mmo development? 10+ years of mmos with varied levels of failures and successes isn't much of a counterpoint to KS projects. We NEED to try something new at the very least. 

     

    The whole point to all of this may simply be to have 1 or 2 mmos garner a decent level of success and history will repeat itself. UO, EQ and AC were all small projects compared to todays 10s of millions of $$$ budgets but companies like Blizzard that are more about copying what works than originality took the idea and ran with it. Perhaps a KS mmo opens the eyes of the big developers enough to awaken the next generation of mmo success. Many did not jump ship from EQ and AC and still enjoyed a decade or more of fun. That is all a smaller budget mmo has to do and it may only take 1 or 2 to spark a resurgence.

    You stay sassy!

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    CU - didn't say the engine was complete. As stated in my other post, they had a team already togetherh and working on it, creating prototypes of various components. They've documented a lot of it in the videos they released throughout the project's funding period. 

    Shroud of the Avatar - already addressed that one. Team and development were already in progress before the kickstarter. 

    Pathfinder Online - You're agreeing with me there, you realize that, right? Ryan didn't do the kickstarter for the MMO until they had a working tech demo, which came well after organizing the team and laying the groundwork in 2011. 

     

    On The Repopulation, I see that as a shining example of what other indie and hobbyist projects should aspire to. They're focused. They are realistic about their goals. They are realistic about their abilities. They are at the trade shows, they are talking with the 3rd party and middleware people, and they have built a pretty solid team so far. Basically, they've got their act together and it shows. 

     

    There was a team in both CU and Shroud of the Avatar, but not nearly the size they now are.. and more importantly they made other games before kickstarter. The work invested before kickstarter was really minimal. SotA went with Unity after kickstarter, and CU had to made their engine after kickstarer.. yeah.. they had not to go from zero.. and you can't really do a kickstarter on a more serious level with nothing to show of(basic team, concept, and maybe some concept art or some stuff to show), but the foundation work, the work on the basic tools and engines started for both afterwards.

    And with PO.. they made a kickstarter to lay some foundation.. yeap, is was not the kickstarter for the game, but for the techdemo.. but before both kickstarter there was not much. A few people, a idea/deal with paizo, some concepts, but no engine, no tools, no nothing.

    So let's say we are both right. They did something before, there existed a team before, and they made some stuff before. But they actually did not start to work on a MMO, and did not got all foundations(engines and tools) together.

  • MumboJumboMumboJumbo LondonPosts: 3,221Member
    Originally posted by Raagnarz

    Camelot Unchained is another one that is worth watching out for. They had a massive week of unveils including their backers playing with the internal testing build this past week and getting to see 9 of the races in action. Its not even in alpha state but it will be made.

     

    Of your list I think The Repopulation will be the first out the door with Pathfinder and Shards not that long after. Granted that  not that far after could still be a couple of years. Camelot Unchained is at least 2 year off as well. So yeah I have zero doubt some KS funded MMO's will hit the market, I just don't think the full launch of any of them is going to be anytime soon"ish".

    Here's The Repoluations June update:

    >"Alpha 3 has been humming along and we are grateful to everyone that has supported us and joined in on the testing and bug squashing that has gone on the last few months. July should be a busy month with more tweeking and bug fixing as we are getting closer to being Beta 1 ready. Alpha 3 access is still available as part of the Early Adopter Program on our website and we look forward to seeing more of you in game later in the year as we roll into Beta and the different Beta phases."

    I think it could be a bit further for post-beta. But combining beta and open access seems to be the lean and best strategy for these budget mmorpgs. The Repopulation's budget seems to be <5m$?

    Now looking at Pathfinder Online which seems to have a 5-8m$ budget, they are in alpha also atm with an Early Enrollment aka early access in Q3. They have been on target up to their last milestone 7 (iirc) which was alpha possibly starting a month late. So how long alpha will be if we assume that will be a month later ending and plus a bit more delay they could Early Enrollment start or during Q4 2014, I believe.

    Shards is a bit different with a modular type of knocked-down version that can integrate and grow the game, you could play a large multiplayer basic version now for example. So that seems to be how they are going with current round table talking about adding admin functionality for selling servers to players before long. Seems a good model but desperately unfortunate to miss their kickstarter target - needed to have come out in 2012 before Shroud? Again Shroud is more of a MO- type game with story chapters.

    All these seem promising approaches and adding above all interesting design desisions. If the design is interesting I can take a massive cut in the graphics budget. The tech however does impact the game so the design needs to work with that in a very compatible way. But again middleware seems to have made all these approaches possible.

    I can't help get the feeling a lot of negative commentary about the above is comparing the production standards, huge marketing (maybe?) and huge graphics budget and of course much larger mainstream that has for so long infected this genre.

    There's an equal assessment that there will be failure KSs (not mentioned above) that are not worth touching with a barge-pole, because we're already seeing significant delay and cash burn and once I think these projects go into that phase it seems players will avoid that like the plague creating negative-feedback cycle.

    Camelot Unchained has an interesting design but seems fairly far off atm 2 years eg. I mean their design docs should have been available in the ks imho let alone actually showing stuff. I still think they'll produce something that will please their backers, but they seem to so far have been more on a wing and a prayer than most projects that have shown more earlier.

    =

    TL;DR: It seems The Repopulation, Pathfinder Online and a few others already have basic versions available (for a fee). I think we'll see gradual development with these for a few years with a small population of players.

    I welcome  a loss of graphical quality if the designs are coming out at much more budget production levels. The genre might be turning a corner. I still think a good design and just enough cash to ensure the tech is working as per the design, and a cool business head we'll see niche mmorpgs do v well for themselves.

    Think SC will be huge when it rolls out.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    CU - didn't say the engine was complete. As stated in my other post, they had a team already togetherh and working on it, creating prototypes of various components. They've documented a lot of it in the videos they released throughout the project's funding period. 

    Shroud of the Avatar - already addressed that one. Team and development were already in progress before the kickstarter. 

    Pathfinder Online - You're agreeing with me there, you realize that, right? Ryan didn't do the kickstarter for the MMO until they had a working tech demo, which came well after organizing the team and laying the groundwork in 2011. 

     

    On The Repopulation, I see that as a shining example of what other indie and hobbyist projects should aspire to. They're focused. They are realistic about their goals. They are realistic about their abilities. They are at the trade shows, they are talking with the 3rd party and middleware people, and they have built a pretty solid team so far. Basically, they've got their act together and it shows. 

     

    There was a team in both CU and Shroud of the Avatar, but not nearly the size they now are.. and more importantly they made other games before kickstarter. The work invested before kickstarter was really minimal. SotA went with Unity after kickstarter, and CU had to made their engine after kickstarer.. yeah.. they had not to go from zero.. and you can't really do a kickstarter on a more serious level with nothing to show of(basic team, concept, and maybe some concept art or some stuff to show), but the foundation work, the work on the basic tools and engines started for both afterwards.

    And with PO.. they made a kickstarter to lay some foundation.. yeap, is was not the kickstarter for the game, but for the techdemo.. but before both kickstarter there was not much. A few people, a idea/deal with paizo, some concepts, but no engine, no tools, no nothing.

    So let's say we are both right. They did something before, there existed a team before, and they made some stuff before. But they actually did not start to work on a MMO, and did not got all foundations(engines and tools) together.

    How dare you be right!!! image

    Sounds reasonable enough. :) 

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • furbansfurbans Tinbucktwo, IAPosts: 965Member
    Nope as they are all still in development and even then people are going to scream fails.  KS MMOs simply lack the funding for that is req for a major MMO.  People are going to expect a smooth polished product  of a AAA MMO and they will never get that.  And so far everything is promises and likely will be like the promises of all past major MMOs that failed to deliver.  I have little faith that any KS MMO will produce a quality product by todays stands and not in EQ1/EQ2 era standards.
  • AIMonsterAIMonster Apopka, FLPosts: 2,059Member
    Originally posted by Instigator-Jones

    You can also check out:

    TUG 

    http://youtu.be/cLq3g0bQSWo

    and

    PLANET EXPLORERS

    http://youtu.be/4x6Ch3gJBq8

    They're both on steam now (I think) and both well into development and playable. Kind-of a Change of paste from traditional offerings, but interesting.

    While I think Planet Explorers is shaping up nicely (admittedly I don't know much about TUG), both aren't really "MMOs" since they are more instanced versions of worlds, like Minecraft or Terraria.

    To the OP:  Kickstarter is still relatively new and it hasn't become popular enough to fund MMOs until about 2010.  MMOs take years to develop.  I'm sure that eventually we'll start seeing Kickstarter MMOs start releasing or at least going into more public beta stages.  Plenty of examples of kickstarted MMOs that are making significant progress have already been posted here.

    image

    Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:
    image

  • ReallyNow10ReallyNow10 Pile It High Town, LAPosts: 2,010Member Common
    I hear Pantheon is in the works, by McQuaid or McGodager or Ghostcrawler or someone big in the industry.
  • JacxolopeJacxolope Jackson, MIPosts: 924Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    I hear Pantheon is in the works, by McQuaid or McGodager or Ghostcrawler or someone big in the industry.

    LOL- Greed Monger as well.

    I'm sure we will playing those two games anytime now...

    *whistles while waiting*

  • psiicpsiic Tampa, FLPosts: 946Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gel214th
    Originally posted by psiic

    Seems like most are always needing more funding, and pretty much all of them are at least a year behind where they originally projected being by now. 

    Personally I've made the personal decision that I threw away all the money I spent on kickstarter to con men and scammers. 

    I've decided crowd funding is nothing but a criminal enterprise most likely originally designed to launder money. 

    Any legitimate and solid business model does not have to come begging funding from the consumers. 

    If you have a solid and workable business model there are tons of banks and investors out there looking to make an investment or business loan. If the business model is too weak or non-existent, the managers are clueless, or have zero business experience then it ends up begging for " free " crowdfunding. 

    If there developers were even remotely legitimate they would be offering an investors return on our money rather that a T-shirt or in game decal. 

    That's a fairly naive view of the business world Nowadays just about every major breakthrough and tech company started by getting funding from someone. Whether friends and family, venture capitalists, or crowd funding. 

    There have been numerous successes, and several products that have been brought to market. And there are products that did not make it. That isn't because the persons that ran these ventures were con men.

    Something like an MMO is an extremely difficult product to develop and bring to market by a non-professional team of many persons. So it's going to be an uphill climb from the very beginning, regardless of how wonderful the ideas and concepts are. 

    If you have ever taken the time and the risk to start a company with an idea you would perhaps understand. My thinking is that you have never done this, and speak from a position of ignorance on the subject. 

    Without crowdfunding, many projects would never get far enough to attract Venture Capitalist investors, and certainly never far enough to secure a loan. 

    If the prospect of paying money for the development of something you want, and have that be brought to market, is a concept that you aren't comfortable with, then say so. A t-shirt, special mention, etc. aren't the reason you are paying a mere 10 or 15 usd. It is to get the finished product, eventually, which otherwise would never get made.

    Don't crap on the people who have the passion and drive to try to make their own dreams a reality, and disparage them by labelling them all as con men. 

    I have actually written close to 30 separate and unique business plans.  

    Taken 17 of them to presentation.  

    Of the 17 I have presented to banks and investors, only 4 received funding. Of those 4, two failed within the first year.

    The third went under within 5 years, and the fourth has now been in business for 11 years with some success.

    I know exactly what I am talking about. 

    Business is tough, its risky, and there are tons of failures for every success as there should be.

    When you remove the risk/reward aspect of business, you end up with a pile of shit where weak, mismanaged, undisciplined, idiots are running companies and saturating a market with craptastic ideas that only make it harder for real companies with real experience to produce real solid projects.

     

    But this is the entitled generation where a bunch of young people think everyone should be given everything they want even if they have not earned it, and do not deserve it. 

    A generation too stupid to realize that by taking away winners and losers, by making it so the weak survive, all they are doing is making everyone else themselves included weaker.

     

    I do not manage my business because I am not qualified to manage a business. 

    I do not do the accounting for my business because I am not qualified to do the books for a business. 

    Unlike these kickstarts I run a real business where I hire qualified people to do a  job they are trained to do. 

    Unlike a kickstart I have a real payroll account, with a real bank, and pay my people with real money.

    Unlike a kickstart I have accountability to my lender and to my employees.

    Unlike a kickstart I keep exact books, and pay the taxes I owe in a timely manner.

    Unlike a kickstart if I produce crap I do not get paid.

     

    Amazes me how some of you young people think socialism, marxism, communism is something new and fantastic, you created. 

     

     

  • JoeyjojoshabaduJoeyjojoshabadu BuderimPosts: 162Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by psiic
    Originally posted by Gel214th
    Originally posted by psiic

    Seems like most are always needing more funding, and pretty much all of them are at least a year behind where they originally projected being by now. 

    Personally I've made the personal decision that I threw away all the money I spent on kickstarter to con men and scammers. 

    I've decided crowd funding is nothing but a criminal enterprise most likely originally designed to launder money. 

    Any legitimate and solid business model does not have to come begging funding from the consumers. 

    If you have a solid and workable business model there are tons of banks and investors out there looking to make an investment or business loan. If the business model is too weak or non-existent, the managers are clueless, or have zero business experience then it ends up begging for " free " crowdfunding. 

    If there developers were even remotely legitimate they would be offering an investors return on our money rather that a T-shirt or in game decal. 

    That's a fairly naive view of the business world Nowadays just about every major breakthrough and tech company started by getting funding from someone. Whether friends and family, venture capitalists, or crowd funding. 

    There have been numerous successes, and several products that have been brought to market. And there are products that did not make it. That isn't because the persons that ran these ventures were con men.

    Something like an MMO is an extremely difficult product to develop and bring to market by a non-professional team of many persons. So it's going to be an uphill climb from the very beginning, regardless of how wonderful the ideas and concepts are. 

    If you have ever taken the time and the risk to start a company with an idea you would perhaps understand. My thinking is that you have never done this, and speak from a position of ignorance on the subject. 

    Without crowdfunding, many projects would never get far enough to attract Venture Capitalist investors, and certainly never far enough to secure a loan. 

    If the prospect of paying money for the development of something you want, and have that be brought to market, is a concept that you aren't comfortable with, then say so. A t-shirt, special mention, etc. aren't the reason you are paying a mere 10 or 15 usd. It is to get the finished product, eventually, which otherwise would never get made.

    Don't crap on the people who have the passion and drive to try to make their own dreams a reality, and disparage them by labelling them all as con men. 

    I have actually written close to 30 separate and unique business plans.  

    Taken 17 of them to presentation.  

    Of the 17 I have presented to banks and investors, only 4 received funding. Of those 4, two failed within the first year.

    The third went under within 5 years, and the fourth has now been in business for 11 years with some success.

    I know exactly what I am talking about. 

    Business is tough, its risky, and there are tons of failures for every success as there should be.

    When you remove the risk/reward aspect of business, you end up with a pile of shit where weak, mismanaged, undisciplined, idiots are running companies and saturating a market with craptastic ideas that only make it harder for real companies with real experience to produce real solid projects.

     

    But this is the entitled generation where a bunch of young people think everyone should be given everything they want even if they have not earned it, and do not deserve it. 

    A generation too stupid to realize that by taking away winners and losers, by making it so the weak survive, all they are doing is making everyone else themselves included weaker.

     

    I do not manage my business because I am not qualified to manage a business. 

    I do not do the accounting for my business because I am not qualified to do the books for a business. 

    Unlike these kickstarts I run a real business where I hire qualified people to do a  job they are trained to do. 

    Unlike a kickstart I have a real payroll account, with a real bank, and pay my people with real money.

    Unlike a kickstart I have accountability to my lender and to my employees.

    Unlike a kickstart I keep exact books, and pay the taxes I owe in a timely manner.

    Unlike a kickstart if I produce crap I do not get paid.

     

    Amazes me how some of you young people think socialism, marxism, communism is something new and fantastic, you created. 

     

     

    Oh please. Knock off the "get off my lawn" rant. This generation is just as entitled and stupid as any other since the last world war. In fact, in some respects they are less entitled than gen X (my gen) and particularly the boomers. One thing I've noticed as I've aged/matured is that the older generations don't necessarily know more than the younger ones, as most folk simply tend to narrow and solidify their viewpoints as they get older, rather than diversify. Hence the "get off my lawn" rants, more often borne from stubborn, petty-mindedness rather than any sort of worldly wisdom.

     

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,680Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

    Oh please. Knock off the "get off my lawn" rant. This generation is just as entitled and stupid as any other since the last world war. 

    Actually, entitlement is something the Millenials are notorious for. 

     

    US Chamber of Commerce - The Millennial Generation Research Review 

    http://www.uschamberfoundation.org/millennial-generation-research-review

    "They bring a new generational personality—done of optimism, structure, team orientation, and a confidence bordering on entitlement."

    "Millennials score high on IQ tests. They also score higher on such traits as extraversion, self-esteem, self-liking, high expectations, and assertiveness. These traits are purported to often lead to narcissism and entitlement."

     

    Wall Street Journal - The 'Trophy Kids' Go to Work

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB122455219391652725

    "More than 85% of hiring managers and human-resource executives said they feel that millennials have a stronger sense of entitlement than older workers, according to a survey by CareerBuilder.com. The generation's greatest expectations: higher pay (74% of respondents); flexible work schedules (61%); a promotion within a year (56%); and more vacation or personal time (50%)."

     

    US News - Millennial Workers: Entitled, Needy, Self-Centered?

    http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/2012/06/27/millennial-workers-entitled-needy-self-centered

    A short but good article with tips for both Baby Boomers and Millenials on how to *gasp* try to understand where the other is coming from. 

     

     

    And for a dose of humor...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz0o9clVQu8 - A guide for Baby Boomers

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1a6M3dBNwc - A guide for Millennials

     

     

    Noticeably absent from most research and discussion on the topic is GenX because, well, honestly, we've got our door key and a TV dinner in the freezer - we'll be fine. If only mTV would go back to just playing music videos...

     

     

     

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • PioneerStewPioneerStew londonPosts: 874Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

    Oh please. Knock off the "get off my lawn" rant. This generation is just as entitled and stupid as any other since the last world war. 

    Actually, entitlement is something the Millenials are notorious for. 

     

    US Chamber of Commerce - The Millennial Generation Research Review 

    http://www.uschamberfoundation.org/millennial-generation-research-review

    "They bring a new generational personality—done of optimism, structure, team orientation, and a confidence bordering on entitlement."

    "Millennials score high on IQ tests. They also score higher on such traits as extraversion, self-esteem, self-liking, high expectations, and assertiveness. These traits are purported to often lead to narcissism and entitlement."

     

    Wall Street Journal - The 'Trophy Kids' Go to Work

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB122455219391652725

    "More than 85% of hiring managers and human-resource executives said they feel that millennials have a stronger sense of entitlement than older workers, according to a survey by CareerBuilder.com. The generation's greatest expectations: higher pay (74% of respondents); flexible work schedules (61%); a promotion within a year (56%); and more vacation or personal time (50%)."

     

    US News - Millennial Workers: Entitled, Needy, Self-Centered?

    http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/2012/06/27/millennial-workers-entitled-needy-self-centered

    A short but good article with tips for both Baby Boomers and Millenials on how to *gasp* try to understand where the other is coming from. 

     

     

    And for a dose of humor...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz0o9clVQu8 - A guide for Baby Boomers

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1a6M3dBNwc - A guide for Millennials

     

     

    Noticeably absent from most research and discussion on the topic is GenX because, well, honestly, we've got our door key and a TV dinner in the freezer - we'll be fine. If only mTV would go back to just playing music videos...

     

     

     

     

     

    As part of Generation X I would actually argue that Baby Boomers are by far the most entitled generation.  

    They basically created vast liabilities by living beyond their means that every subsequent generation must pay off.  Be they pensions, environmental, general over consumption etc etc.  

  • psiicpsiic Tampa, FLPosts: 946Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PioneerStew
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Joeyjojoshabadu

    Oh please. Knock off the "get off my lawn" rant. This generation is just as entitled and stupid as any other since the last world war. 

    Actually, entitlement is something the Millenials are notorious for. 

     

    US Chamber of Commerce - The Millennial Generation Research Review 

    http://www.uschamberfoundation.org/millennial-generation-research-review

    "They bring a new generational personality—done of optimism, structure, team orientation, and a confidence bordering on entitlement."

    "Millennials score high on IQ tests. They also score higher on such traits as extraversion, self-esteem, self-liking, high expectations, and assertiveness. These traits are purported to often lead to narcissism and entitlement."

     

    Wall Street Journal - The 'Trophy Kids' Go to Work

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB122455219391652725

    "More than 85% of hiring managers and human-resource executives said they feel that millennials have a stronger sense of entitlement than older workers, according to a survey by CareerBuilder.com. The generation's greatest expectations: higher pay (74% of respondents); flexible work schedules (61%); a promotion within a year (56%); and more vacation or personal time (50%)."

     

    US News - Millennial Workers: Entitled, Needy, Self-Centered?

    http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/articles/2012/06/27/millennial-workers-entitled-needy-self-centered

    A short but good article with tips for both Baby Boomers and Millenials on how to *gasp* try to understand where the other is coming from. 

     

     

    And for a dose of humor...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz0o9clVQu8 - A guide for Baby Boomers

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1a6M3dBNwc - A guide for Millennials

     

     

    Noticeably absent from most research and discussion on the topic is GenX because, well, honestly, we've got our door key and a TV dinner in the freezer - we'll be fine. If only mTV would go back to just playing music videos...

     

     

     

     

     

    As part of Generation X I would actually argue that Baby Boomers are by far the most entitled generation.  

    They basically created vast liabilities by living beyond their means that every subsequent generation must pay off.  Be they pensions, environmental, general over consumption etc etc.  

    The important difference is the baby boomers are capitalist, this generation are socialist. 

     

     

2
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