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Call me crazy but something tells me action MMORPGs have already caught on.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Originally posted by xAPOCx I dont understand why BOTH combat systems can't be integrated into the same game. Give players the option of action combat AND tab targeting in the same game.
You can, GW2 has that.
Tbh, while people commonly differentiate combat between TAB targetting & action-combat, it's not entirely accurate. The main difference is whether or not the combat is mostly determined by passive stats (crit chance, dodge chance, parry, threat stat), or whether it's determined by active factors (you personally choosing to dodge, or timing a block at the right time, or aiming a shot correctly to do more damage). The targetting system doesn't really determine this, it's just that pretty much all traditional combat systems have/had tab targetting, and most action-combat games use some form of aiming.
Though, as I said GW2 is the one exception to this that I know of. By default it has tab targetting, but it also has the ability to be changed to a system nearly identical to what TERA has, based on personal preference.
Well I hope the OP is correct since I don't want FPS gameplay in my RPGs. I was starting to think the shift is happening; that the younger generation has even less attention span than we do lol. They want action action action.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by Mkilbride At least not for awhile. Vindictus, Tera, and to some degree, TESO. I love third person hack and slashes like DMC. Great fun. I love Vindictus too. Tera had neat combat. The issue with why these games didn't / aren't succeeding lie with the combat. It's not Tab Target. Now, I don't think Tab Target is anything super amazing either. But MMORPGS are designed for the long term. Long hours. Years, even. With Tab Target combat, you can easily create new skills and combat modes. Not so with action, hence why most action games rarely update the moveset years after release. The main problem is the attention. Tab Target you can watch TV, talk to friends, for hours on end. Plus, grinding and such isn't to bad. However, with Action Combat, it requires your full attention, dodging, attacking, combos, ect. You have to remain very focused, it's tiring on the hands and fingers if you try to grind these MMORPGS. It becomes exhausting. Running a dungeon 4-5 times in a game like Vindictus or Tera is brutal, but because they are setup like MMORPGS, you need to grind. Hence, it's like replaying the same level of GoW or DMC 5 times over in a row. It gets stale, and yet it doesn't really become easier, you still need to give your full attention. Action MMORPGS require alot of physical and mental effort, while Tab Target does not. So the difference between 5 hours of a game like Vindictus, or WoW, in those 5 hours in Vindictus, it feels like 10. You can't just kinda "Blank out", during the boring parts. So people end up taking breaks. But with a subscription, I mean, the breaks aren't all that appealing, yet you don't want to play either, so obviously you won't subscribe to a game that is like that. Hence why you see these types of MMORPGS getting alot of excitement at release "Skill based! Action combat! Not the same old Tab target!" These things are thrown around alot. But then it comes out. Maybe it has a good story, world, and satisfying in general, you can't find anything "wrong", but it all seems terribly exhausting after awhile because on top of the usual MMO grind / exhausting, you now have fatigue from mashing a button 500 times a Dungeon instead of 50. Perhaps one day it will work, but not at current or the future as I can see. Not unless the nature of MMORPGS change to allow action combat. Even that odd Darkfall Online has a terrible grind where you spend all stay standing in a spot and kill monsters that pop up from it, over and over, just to level. Alot of people play MMORPGS to get away from reflex intensive games, ones they can find unique or interesting builds, not just press WASD + Dodge key + M1/M2. Every time an action MMORPG comes out, people just love the idea of a 'skill' based MMORPG, but it doesn't work because by their very nature, MMORPGS aren't meant to be that way. It's trying to fit something that wasn't designed for it in, and that is why until MMORPGS themselves change, "True Action Combat MMORPGS" will always fail.
Tab target and action combat are not mutually exclusive (E.g. Guild Wars 2)
Also I double dare you to kill something veteran+ without properly positioning yourself. Yeah go ahead and watch TV while killing a risen giant (mind you that's one of the easiest champions to kill solo)
Also those action games are not very grindy.
I love misguided threads like yours /grabs popcorn
Originally posted by Mkilbride You are exactly what I meant. You are the perfect example of the average MMORPG player. That is why I made this topic.
He just called you average... average... omg, did he just say that... average?
Anyone that works or does something on life besides sitting all day in their behind can tell you that the reason they play games is NOT what you well said and I marked in red.
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
While I do agree with the premise of the post on a personal level, some of highest earning games at this point (GW2, TERA, ESO, WildStar albeit the last two are riding release success still) are MMOARPGs. A lot of people do like them. I'm of the same mind as you, where action combat does become cumbersome sometimes when I don't want to have to dodge every red circle every 5 seconds, but for those times is why I play a mixture of action combat and traditional combat. Having more options is great, and while I don't think action combat will ever truly replace traditional MMO combat, it definitely has it's place in the genre.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIVHave played: You name itIf you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
GW2 & WildStar are not Action MMOs. They are Tab Target. Just they do not seem Tab Target, but still are.
GW2 had that Combat Mod that someone released and was interesting. Tera does have a distinct lack of skills. ARound 8 per class, that you upgrade to "I-V" ect. Tera is also floundering, if you go to their forums, or look at the history of their population charts, the game has less people now by far than it did at it's lowest during a sub game. They updated the game with an Elin only race, removed the customziation system and put it in the cash shop, and have been nerfing dungeons to make them easier. The playerbase is not responding well to that.
It is good to see such debates sparking. Though I am confused by people calling WildStar an action MMORPG...just having a dodge ability does not an action MMORPG make.
*As to the person who said "Why can't we have both?" It's pretty obvious, I'd think. Twice the development time on devs. One would end up being superior. Patching / balancing would have to be done for two systems. It's not feasable. Then we'd have the community divide, that would make guilds frustrating. Just wouldn't work.
Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!
Action mmos can get better only if the developer stop limiting the combat and the environment. Slapping a reticle into a tab target mmo and call it a day is not working very well. They need to make the game around the idea of being actively slashing things. Action combat means faster floor wiping with mobs (or mobs with you).
Action combat should mean ACTION combat.... no targetting aquired in order to shoot something, no animation locks slowing down everything, combat and movement flexibility that includes mid air combos and crouching and climbing to get to places. That also involves environmental destruction/collision or the action combat will feel bland if your weapon just clip through everything.
I dont know when or if all these would even happen in an mmorpg at all, but until it happens then traditional tab target will reign. IMO tab target mmos are supposed to be more tactical, and action mmos are supposed to be more active and hectic. Mixing the two is the result of the poor action mmos we currently have.
EDIT: i forgot to mention action mmos also must have active blocking and parrying. Thats a huge part of it.
Yep, time to close the thread, OP has no clue what he's talking about
Is there a problem with having both types of games available? Diversity is good.
I for one do not enjoy tab targeting games. They feel so unnatural whereas a FPS style feels very intuitive to me. Sure they are more tiring but I would rather have 3 hours of pure fun than 6 hours of a boring grind. In my opinion games have become far too easy and I think making them more actiony is a step in the right direction.
Also most action MMOs have the same issues as tab targeting games: Lack of long term mechanics. When people run out of content and find nothing worth staying for they simply leave. Its hardly ever about the combat system but about the depth and longevity of the content. This is where virtually every MMO is failing.
---Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Take it for what it's worth but that is why I didn't sign up for Wildstar. I know many will say it's not a action combat MMO but to me it was. I found the combat to busy for my taste. I would rather the combat outcome from using the right skills and not from how I jump around while I'm doing this.
I've got to respectfully disagree.
Yes, action combat requires a redesign of the game's content - emphasis on quality encounters and low grind as opposed to long hours. No, tab targeting is not innately better suited to the MMO genre. Frankly, what constitutes an MMO? Does a game need to require long play hours, grind, or multi-task suited gameplay (as described in your post) to constitute an MMORPG or even a good MMORPG? Absolutely not.
Now, if you give me an MMO meant to support (a minimum of 5) interesting, quality zones with content that CHALLENGES the player through an action combat system that has interesting skill design, then I would never go back to tab targeting.
That said, action combat has a lot less to do with targeting than it does with mobility. An action combat game is going to add in fluid movement, skills that can be used on the move, reactionary or predictive defense and support skills, dodges/blocks/etc., and, preferably, features like combos and aerial attacks that haven't yet been integrated into the genre. All of that can be accomplished on a tab target system and the game would still very much qualify as "action combat."
Well if you go by the charts of biggest earners for last year (which should probably be taken with a grain of salt, who knows how real those numbers are unless they are directly taken from the company) Tera Online was listed as being the 3rd highest grossing MMO under the classic titans World of Warcraft and Lineage 1. If the numbers we do find out were based off company released statistics, then it would stand to show that Action combat IS by far something people enjoy and does catch on. Unless the numbers were massively fudged, its a big indictation that Actions MMOrpgs ARE doing just fine.
I don't feel tab target is anywhere near going out of fashion, but people really WANT an MMo that involves much more thought and attention towards. Games like Rift or World of Warcraft became so much more tedius having to do activities without applying any bit of thought to (wow in particular), making things so droll having no challenge when it comes to much of the content you are expected to do daily. If anything i think action MMos are far more likely to succeede in a market flooded with tab target MMos, at least until action MMos start to become in vast number as well.
Thus far, they have done an amazing job catching on and i feel have really carried a lot of weight themselves. Not certain why you don't feel they aren't catching on.
Originally posted by ElRenmazuo I dream of an mmo with Dark Souls combat
...but without the target locking!
Originally posted by Mkilbride GW2 & WildStar are not Action MMOs. They are Tab Target. Just they do not seem Tab Target, but still are. GW2 had that Combat Mod that someone released and was interesting. Tera does have a distinct lack of skills. ARound 8 per class, that you upgrade to "I-V" ect. Tera is also floundering, if you go to their forums, or look at the history of their population charts, the game has less people now by far than it did at it's lowest during a sub game. They updated the game with an Elin only race, removed the customziation system and put it in the cash shop, and have been nerfing dungeons to make them easier. The playerbase is not responding well to that. It is good to see such debates sparking. Though I am confused by people calling WildStar an action MMORPG...just having a dodge ability does not an action MMORPG make. *As to the person who said "Why can't we have both?" It's pretty obvious, I'd think. Twice the development time on devs. One would end up being superior. Patching / balancing would have to be done for two systems. It's not feasable. Then we'd have the community divide, that would make guilds frustrating. Just wouldn't work.
Combat mod makes GW2's combat behave nearly identica to TERAs (the difference being that the games have different class design, where TERA has nested combo chains, and GW2 has more of a talent / weapon-swap system).
So, how is one action and the other not, in your eyes?
What, to you, constitutes an action MMO? Is it that it has a default retical based targetting system? Or do you have any other criteria.
All of those games listed have active dodging, aiming, skill-shots, and are based around player reactions & skill vs. passive stat gains.
Originally posted by Mkilbride GW2 & WildStar are not Action MMOs. They are Tab Target. Just they do not seem Tab Target, but still are.
Yes, and Devil May Cry has auto-targeting, too. Are you saying TERA is an action game while DMC isn't?
In fact, most swordfighting games have some lock-on features. DMC, Dark Souls, Dynasty Warriors, etc. The only difference between that and GW2's tab-targeting is that you don't have to hold the button in GW2.
I just liked the bits about MMORPGs being physically exhausting, and that Wildstar is tab-target.
If video games are physically exhausting, I think you know what I would suggest.
I guess you could call Wildstar tab target by virtue of the fact that you can press tab and the target frame will go to an enemy, but the more traditional meaning of tab-target is that you press tab to target the enemy that all of your attacks will land on. Which is not the case in Wildstar. You still have to aim, and tabbing will just show you mob HP and a cast bar.
I can fly higher than an aeroplane.And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.Hurt - Wars
Originally posted by Inf666 Originally posted by ElRenmazuo I dream of an mmo with Dark Souls combat
Even in Dark Souls that feature is useless for majority of mobs and bosses.
Here OP, educate yourself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaxYx2pStUE
1) This is Guild Wars 2, a game you said does not have action combat.
2) This is completely naked character going against one of the meanest monsters in this game. The amount of wipes and baby tears this big guy brings to inexperienced players is waaaay over the top.
3) This guy manages to beat him because he is good. Please go ahead and do that in your favorite action MMO game. [mod edit]
Now let me break it to you. A true action combat game shouldn't make you farm the best gear. It should give you the tools to sustain yourself in a fight. You think that's faulty logic? kay...
When was the last time you grinded stats in DmC? Because I completed DmC on the hardest mode, you know, where you die in 1 hit and the mobs are full HP. I don't remember grinding for gear, nop. Just using my shit.
Also in action combat, things like, say, arrows, do not take curve at you. If you step aside and it flies next to you, you do not get damage. That's pretty much what happens in Gw2. Most notable if you face a staff necromancer. So there you have it. Tab-based action combat at its finest
Originally posted by Jemcrystal The new trend is action and I hate it. If feels like another cop out; where devs became obsessed with something they could handle instead of doing anything I would have liked in future mmo's. I almost can't blame them tho. No one could solve the problem of lag on our shitty PC's so they focused on something else. A "how can we make mmo's different but still easy to make" board meeting.
What lag do you speak of? Network lag? Or FPS lag. If its the latter then I'm sorry buddy but you can't slow down progress. Just go out and buy some parts. As for the first, if you choose the right datacenter you shouldn't have any issues at all. I rarely hear people complain about lag really.