Originally posted by lizardbones A "carebear" is less likely to pick up and play Eve than someone who likes both PvE and PvP content, but primarily engages in PvE content.
Erm, you haven't played EVE then because people there complain about carebears all the time
If player's concern is primarily crafting over shooting other players, he is a crafter.
But if your argument does not hold and support your stance, invent a new term!
"He is not a crafter, he is a "casual PVPer""!
And voila, the game is suddenly full of PVPers!
Same story:
"The game is a themepark."
"No no, it it's a sandpark! It has got sandbox features!, etc."
Originally posted by mayito7777 I played Eve for few days and I quit playing not because of ganking but because I didnt like the long wait for skill learning.
Why were you waiting isntead of playing the game...?
I actually prefer option 2 as well in theory but in practice option 2 is just not workable. PvP games just do not allow players to implement the levels of punishment that would be suffiicient enough to discourage 'inappropriate' behaviour. Thus if you want to get rid of that behaviour, you end up supporting option 1 instead.
In fact, the whole discussion is weird. If you don't want a behavior, just make it impossible in a game. Why have this whole thing about punishment and what-not.
If you want the behavior, why punish it?
Exactly.
A lot of the 'in-game punishment' suggestions are really just an attempt to fool people into thinking that the issue is not as big a problem as it is and gives the players an illusion of power. Generally any in-game anti-griefing punishments that would satisfy my desire for 'justice', would result in the griefers quitting the game enmasse.
It reminds me of how CCP tried to 'soft ban' certain newbie-unfriendly behaviours in EVE. In the end they gave up and instituted an out-of-game ban for those behaviours.
It does work and is indeed the easiest way but it isn't the best.
The best would be to have PvP good enough to attract a large crowd without any PvE at all, focusing a game means you can focus the mechanics purely on PvP and don't have to worry about stuff like AI, taunts and so on.
The problem there is that no MMO really have done that well enough which means that PvP games are small niche games.
And don't give me the crap about people prefer PvE, FPS games started out as PvE games as well (with "Doom") but as soon as they got the mechanics good enough they attracted the majority of the players.
You just can't take the mechanics from Wow, EQ or whatever and use them directly for a PvP game, they are really made with PvE in focus and the other purely PvP mechanics ain't good enough of PvP would have been a lot larger.
I think the difference with most multi-player FPS games is that they are generally designed on the basis that it is a level playing field based on skill. I will happily spend hours running around shooting people in Halo.
As soon as you introduce levels and gear that gives some players a huge advantage over others then the small percentage of players who choose to gank without any deterrent will ruin the game for many people.
But as you say, removing the PVE focus of these games could go a long way toward improving some of these issues.
That is half my point yes. The second (as you seems to get) is that the powergap destroys PvP.
Yes, there should be difference between noobs and vets in a MMO but not what we have today. For good PvP the powergap should be about that a really badly playing vet would be just beaten by a brilliantly playing noob, together with a lot more customization possibilities for the vet.
And that isn't what most so called "hardcore" PvP fans want to hear but it would make combat a lot more fun.
Skip PvE, lower the powergap and put more focus in making guild owned fortresses and dungeons.
Originally posted by YoungCaesar I love this thread logic, FFA pvp games can only survive if carebears stay, but why would carebears play a FFA pvp game in the first place?
Answer: The game offers gameplay options that cannot be found in another game and thus players are wiling to 'suffer' through the FFA PvP.
Personally, I have tried playing EVE twice over the last ten years but after months of playing the PvP aspect just got to be too much for me. I like a ton of stuff about EVE but not the FFA PvP.
It does work and is indeed the easiest way but it isn't the best.
The best would be to have PvP good enough to attract a large crowd without any PvE at all, focusing a game means you can focus the mechanics purely on PvP and don't have to worry about stuff like AI, taunts and so on.
The problem there is that no MMO really have done that well enough which means that PvP games are small niche games.
And don't give me the crap about people prefer PvE, FPS games started out as PvE games as well (with "Doom") but as soon as they got the mechanics good enough they attracted the majority of the players.
You just can't take the mechanics from Wow, EQ or whatever and use them directly for a PvP game, they are really made with PvE in focus and the other purely PvP mechanics ain't good enough of PvP would have been a lot larger.
I think the difference with most multi-player FPS games is that they are generally designed on the basis that it is a level playing field based on skill. I will happily spend hours running around shooting people in Halo.
As soon as you introduce levels and gear that gives some players a huge advantage over others then the small percentage of players who choose to gank without any deterrent will ruin the game for many people.
But as you say, removing the PVE focus of these games could go a long way toward improving some of these issues.
That is half my point yes. The second (as you seems to get) is that the powergap destroys PvP.
Yes, there should be difference between noobs and vets in a MMO but not what we have today. For good PvP the powergap should be about that a really badly playing vet would be just beaten by a brilliantly playing noob, together with a lot more customization possibilities for the vet.
And that isn't what most so called "hardcore" PvP fans want to hear but it would make combat a lot more fun.
Skip PvE, lower the powergap and put more focus in making guild owned fortresses and dungeons.
Funny thing is, you have exactly that part in red in games like Darkfall yet people still complain.
In DFO you had a lot of good players who at some point created alts or rerolled new characters and while still in low end gear with crap stats were going around just destroying people still on their main character with months worth of stats and some of the better gear. Even after I had only been playing a few weeks with half assed stats and running around in leather armor and r20-30s I was still capable of taking down people with maxed stats + dragon armor.
In DFUW, it became slightly more stat & gear based than DFO but you also had the addition of safe zones which offered enough prowess in them to practically max out your main class & stats within a week or so, 2 weeks if you were somewhat casual, and plenty of resources to make some decent gear. By the time you were forced to leave the safe zones to progress you were at or above the threshold of being considered PvP viable unless you willingly chose to leave early. Yet you still had people raging in chat daily about people attacking "noobs" outside the SZ as if someone was forcing them to go out undergeared and low on stats.
Both games offered a setting where skill wins out over gear and stats. You could be maxed out and in the best gear, but if you cant hit someone and are constantly getting hit by them, youre going to lose. Just like in an FPS. Yet there was still the constant whining about power gaps and being undergeared by bad players.
I agree with the OP. I've heard PvP is only fun when there's fresh meat to gank. Once that runs out, the server pretty much dies.
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989 This issue with most PvP MMO's is the community. They're most often vile...
On the one hand I agree with you; one reason I left Eve was the toxic profanity. But I'm sure there are great, loyal, hard-working people there. I wish Eve would make a fantasy themed game!
On Rallos Zek (EQ Server) in 2000, among the asshats were some very dedicated and loyal players.
Originally posted by Tolmos ...One of the most balanced systems that I saw was that, when you died, your inventory dropped. Not your gear, or what you are wearing- just your inventory; whatever you picked up since the last time you banked...
Great system and argument! Let's add outlaws too. Gank some folks and the only bank which will talk to you lies in a distant isle; getting to it is dangrous and so is being there.
Alternatively, the value of items stolen could be tallied up and offered as bounty. Higher bounty means stronger NPC hunters; and death to them means losing all carried/worn gear.
Originally posted by Beatnik59 ...part of the problem with having complex (anti-ganking systems), is that they are always very vulnerable to getting mucked up by folks who just want cheap lulz...
Brilliant post Beatnik59. Kinda like how a $million of defense can be overcome by $50 of offense.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I actually prefer option 2 as well in theory but in practice option 2 is just not workable. PvP games just do not allow players to implement the levels of punishment that would be suffiicient enough to discourage 'inappropriate' behaviour. Thus if you want to get rid of that behaviour, you end up supporting option 1 instead.
In fact, the whole discussion is weird. If you don't want a behavior, just make it impossible in a game. Why have this whole thing about punishment and what-not.
If you want the behavior, why punish it?
Exactly.
A lot of the 'in-game punishment' suggestions are really just an attempt to fool people into thinking that the issue is not as big a problem as it is and gives the players an illusion of power. Generally any in-game anti-griefing punishments that would satisfy my desire for 'justice', would result in the griefers quitting the game enmasse.
It reminds me of how CCP tried to 'soft ban' certain newbie-unfriendly behaviours in EVE. In the end they gave up and instituted an out-of-game ban for those behaviours.
Isn't it what most PvE and (real) PvP players would want though? For griefers to leave.
I mean, unless you care about griefers, having them leaving the game en-masse is exactly the desired outcome - for PvE players as much as ("proper") PvP players.
About not wanting the behaviour:
It's not about "not wanting the behaviour", it's about giving the player freedom and the tools to enjoy the game in their own way... While discouraging every player to engage in risk free behaviour (and thus, continuous) which is detrimental to the enjoyment of the game for another chunk of the players.
In other words, if a player could kill a player but doing so (and getting caught, in defined circumstances) could mean losing your progress, items, account wide permanent penalties, etc. then a lot of players would think twice about doing it (instead of griefers able to kill easy picks without any penalties).
You would also get players that would band together and take the risk for the adrenaline, enjoyment (and hopefully rewards) of playing this type of character. Thus high risk, high reward.
You would also get players that would band together and take the risk for the adrenaline, enjoyment (and hopefully rewards) of playing this type of character. Thus high risk, high reward.
If the whole point is just to have high risk and high reward, you don't even need pvp to do it ... why go through all the trouble of discourage a behavior, make it high risk, and at the same time knowing if anyone is taking this route, he may be pissing off the pve players?
Just make a high risk, high reward pvp-only game, or pve-only game.
Really the pvp hate came from a time when MMOs were growing. I think the community is mature enough now to where there could very well be a free for all loot, player vs player, content driven game without too many people batting an eye.
It'd just need to be a good design from the start.
Really the pvp hate came from a time when MMOs were growing. I think the community is mature enough now to where there could very well be a free for all loot, player vs player, content driven game without too many people batting an eye.
It'd just need to be a good design from the start.
That's the problem tho'.
There is always be the unpleasant minority who will grief and get their jollies ganking considerably weaker enemies though (what % of society are psychopaths/sociopaths?) and these have a disproportionate impact on others gaming experience. I'm with you WRT good design, but part of that has to be a way of preventing this kind of behaviour. Not an easy thing to accomplish.
That is half my point yes. The second (as you seems to get) is that the powergap destroys PvP.
Yes, there should be difference between noobs and vets in a MMO but not what we have today. For good PvP the powergap should be about that a really badly playing vet would be just beaten by a brilliantly playing noob, together with a lot more customization possibilities for the vet.
And that isn't what most so called "hardcore" PvP fans want to hear but it would make combat a lot more fun.
Skip PvE, lower the powergap and put more focus in making guild owned fortresses and dungeons.
Funny thing is, you have exactly that part in red in games like Darkfall yet people still complain.
In DFO you had a lot of good players who at some point created alts or rerolled new characters and while still in low end gear with crap stats were going around just destroying people still on their main character with months worth of stats and some of the better gear. Even after I had only been playing a few weeks with half assed stats and running around in leather armor and r20-30s I was still capable of taking down people with maxed stats + dragon armor.
In DFUW, it became slightly more stat & gear based than DFO but you also had the addition of safe zones which offered enough prowess in them to practically max out your main class & stats within a week or so, 2 weeks if you were somewhat casual, and plenty of resources to make some decent gear. By the time you were forced to leave the safe zones to progress you were at or above the threshold of being considered PvP viable unless you willingly chose to leave early. Yet you still had people raging in chat daily about people attacking "noobs" outside the SZ as if someone was forcing them to go out undergeared and low on stats.
Both games offered a setting where skill wins out over gear and stats. You could be maxed out and in the best gear, but if you cant hit someone and are constantly getting hit by them, youre going to lose. Just like in an FPS. Yet there was still the constant whining about power gaps and being undergeared by bad players.
I didn't say that people wouldn't complain, just that it is the right thing to do to get MMO PvP more fun.
Darkfall do indeed do some things right, but it also have issues and while people were interested at launch I doubt that most people even heard of DFUW.
With a better engine, less focus on gear (yeah, it isn't much focus compared to game like Wow but there is still a bit too much) and a better UI that game could have become way more popular.
There will always be some whining no matter what you do, heck even FPS games have whiners (that weapon is OP and so on...) but this is the right way to goif you want to make PvP as popular as PvE...
Problem is just that even if DF have some good ideas it ain't a good enough game to become really large, they might be on the right track with the powergap but there is a lot more you need to do (like I said in my post on page 3 in this thread).
There is always be the unpleasant minority who will grief and get their jollies ganking considerably weaker enemies though (what % of society are psychopaths/sociopaths?) and these have a disproportionate impact on others gaming experience. I'm with you WRT good design, but part of that has to be a way of preventing this kind of behaviour. Not an easy thing to accomplish.
Ehh, it's not really that big of a problem tho'. I've played a lot of FFA MMOs and never had as bad a time as some people.
To use an example from a previous post I think if you're away from your keyboard for 10 minutes in any game you should be punished somehow. When should inattentive gamers be catered to over people looking to simulate a dangerous combative world?
If developers and the community got behind a 'we're in this together' mentality then they'd find the beauty in playing in a massive multiplayer role playing game. There are other people, different sorts of people, each with their own goal. If your goal is to not die while being logged in and away from keyboard... Then maybe you shouldn't play a computer game?
I think the people afraid of these scenarios make them almost nightmarish in their heads and blow these little things out of proportion.
Really the pvp hate came from a time when MMOs were growing. I think the community is mature enough now to where there could very well be a free for all loot, player vs player, content driven game without too many people batting an eye.
It'd just need to be a good design from the start.
That's the problem tho'.
There is always be the unpleasant minority who will grief and get their jollies ganking considerably weaker enemies though (what % of society are psychopaths/sociopaths?) and these have a disproportionate impact on others gaming experience. I'm with you WRT good design, but part of that has to be a way of preventing this kind of behaviour. Not an easy thing to accomplish.
It is easy, if people aren't considerably weaker the problem would solve itself. Or at least they would have to move in larger groups to gank and that is both easier to spot for avoiding and to track down and take out for angry guildies.
It is a big difference between ganking someone that is 30% or even 50% weaker than you and people with zero chance of killing you, most gankers I seen don't play that very well (guildies used to ask me to take out corpse campers and similar in older games, few were particularly hard to take care off, more than a few ran away as soon as they saw someone close to their own level).
Ehh, it's not really that big of a problem tho'. I've played a lot of FFA MMOs and never had as bad a time as some people.
To use an example from a previous post I think if you're away from your keyboard for 10 minutes in any game you should be punished somehow. When should inattentive gamers be catered to over people looking to simulate a dangerous combative world?
If developers and the community got behind a 'we're in this together' mentality then they'd find the beauty in playing in a massive multiplayer role playing game. There are other people, different sorts of people, each with their own goal. If your goal is to not die while being logged in and away from keyboard... Then maybe you shouldn't play a computer game?
I think the people afraid of these scenarios make them almost nightmarish in their heads and blow these little things out of proportion.
But something is turning off most MMO players from PvP games, besides Eve are games like that only small niche games besides games with separate PvP like GW 1 & 2.
My theory as I said before is the powergap, not really the ganking in itself, what is your take?
I am still certain it ain't because MMOers are a bunch of wusses, there must be something in the PvP games that makes them less fun (but that Eve at least got partly right).
Ehh, it's not really that big of a problem tho'. I've played a lot of FFA MMOs and never had as bad a time as some people.
To use an example from a previous post I think if you're away from your keyboard for 10 minutes in any game you should be punished somehow. When should inattentive gamers be catered to over people looking to simulate a dangerous combative world?
If developers and the community got behind a 'we're in this together' mentality then they'd find the beauty in playing in a massive multiplayer role playing game. There are other people, different sorts of people, each with their own goal. If your goal is to not die while being logged in and away from keyboard... Then maybe you shouldn't play a computer game?
I think the people afraid of these scenarios make them almost nightmarish in their heads and blow these little things out of proportion.
But something is turning off most MMO players from PvP games, besides Eve are games like that only small niche games besides games with separate PvP like GW 1 & 2.
My theory as I said before is the powergap, not really the ganking in itself, what is your take?
I am still certain it ain't because MMOers are a bunch of wusses, there must be something in the PvP games that makes them less fun (but that Eve at least got partly right).
That's your theory because that's how World of Warcraft added PVP to it's solo content leveling game. That's not a very good design.
I cut my PVP teeth in UO, which for it's flaws everyone started out pretty much the same and then you specialized by your actions. I learned then that such games weren't 'solo' activities.
It shouldn't be 'fun' to do anything by yourself in a game designed to be a social massive multiplayer experience. Back to the point tho' my favorite MMO experience was in Shadowbane. It wasn't a very pretty game, had its flaws, but anyone could attack anyone and even pissing off your guild had consequences.
Teamwork mattered, war mattered, choices you made had weight with them. I remember one guy caught a friend and I out rune hunting and killed us, there was a level difference between us but we went two to one with someone higher level and held our own.. But we ultimately lost and that was that. 3 months down the line the guy was on our side in a battle.. My buddy and I marked him, waited for the victory celebrations after a successful bane and then we ganked that guy (matched levels with him by then and grew as players) and took his stuff in front of everyone and had a nice little riot break out.
I mean ultimately there's just different types of players. On a pvp server in WoW if I was leveling say in Stranglethorn and a high level started camping I'd just log out and go do something else with someone else elsewhere and that was that. As casual a game WoW was I never understood why anyone submitted themselves to corpse camping.. I mean at the very least even the most diehard 'i lvl 1 character at a time' sort of player had a farm / market mule they could spend 15 minutes on and avoid the problem.
To your post specifically I don't think a game that has two people in the same world 90 levels apart being so grossly different from one another is a very good design. I'd rather see more Dungeons & Dragons style 'power levels' for avatars. Look a level 7 Wizard in D&D has an edge up on a level 3 Fighter we all know, but not that much. More or less each D&D character grows in utility and adventure ability as well as combat prowess.
If more MMOs would focus on the massive multiplayer aspects of the design we'd have something better for the pvpers and pvers alike. As it stands the whole of the MMO world has followed a pretty flawed design and could turn to table top designers for another look at how to plan multiplayer games.
EVE online is a true FFA Sandbox game that has been sustainable for many years... it does NOT have a "PVE base" and it's the main example as to why your premise is wrong. I'm sick of PVEer acting like the sacred overlords of MMOs. You guys just don't GET open world PVP and you should stop trying to shape every MMO out there to YOUR needs. There's plenty of carebear games.
This is clearly a person who has never played EVE.
There is a MASSIVE PvE only base in EvE. Miners, Mission Runners, Shippers, etc.
I dont have the numbers, but i'd be willing to bet large sums of money that less than 50% of EVE's playerbase have ever set foot into nullsec or something like a wormhole.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
EVE online is a true FFA Sandbox game that has been sustainable for many years... it does NOT have a "PVE base" and it's the main example as to why your premise is wrong. I'm sick of PVEer acting like the sacred overlords of MMOs. You guys just don't GET open world PVP and you should stop trying to shape every MMO out there to YOUR needs. There's plenty of carebear games.
This is clearly a person who has never played EVE.
There is a MASSIVE PvE only base in EvE. Miners, Mission Runners, Shippers, etc.
I dont have the numbers, but i'd be willing to bet large sums of money that less than 50% of EVE's playerbase have ever set foot into nullsec or something like a wormhole.
Well that's the point of the main topic.
A good sandbox will have it's epic PVP wars along side it's well thought out and planned PVE experience. Having more one or the other doesn't make for a very unique experience any longer.
There's a lot of PVE in EvE, but it's directly connected and affected by the more infamous PVP gameplay experience.
Ehh, it's not really that big of a problem tho'. I've played a lot of FFA MMOs and never had as bad a time as some people.
To use an example from a previous post I think if you're away from your keyboard for 10 minutes in any game you should be punished somehow. When should inattentive gamers be catered to over people looking to simulate a dangerous combative world?
If developers and the community got behind a 'we're in this together' mentality then they'd find the beauty in playing in a massive multiplayer role playing game. There are other people, different sorts of people, each with their own goal. If your goal is to not die while being logged in and away from keyboard... Then maybe you shouldn't play a computer game?
I think the people afraid of these scenarios make them almost nightmarish in their heads and blow these little things out of proportion.
But something is turning off most MMO players from PvP games, besides Eve are games like that only small niche games besides games with separate PvP like GW 1 & 2.
My theory as I said before is the powergap, not really the ganking in itself, what is your take?
I am still certain it ain't because MMOers are a bunch of wusses, there must be something in the PvP games that makes them less fun (but that Eve at least got partly right).
That's your theory because that's how World of Warcraft added PVP to it's solo content leveling game. That's not a very good design.
I cut my PVP teeth in UO, which for it's flaws everyone started out pretty much the same and then you specialized by your actions. I learned then that such games weren't 'solo' activities.
It shouldn't be 'fun' to do anything by yourself in a game designed to be a social massive multiplayer experience. Back to the point tho' my favorite MMO experience was in Shadowbane. It wasn't a very pretty game, had its flaws, but anyone could attack anyone and even pissing off your guild had consequences.
Teamwork mattered, war mattered, choices you made had weight with them. I remember one guy caught a friend and I out rune hunting and killed us, there was a level difference between us but we went two to one with someone higher level and held our own.. But we ultimately lost and that was that. 3 months down the line the guy was on our side in a battle.. My buddy and I marked him, waited for the victory celebrations after a successful bane and then we ganked that guy (matched levels with him by then and grew as players) and took his stuff in front of everyone and had a nice little riot break out.
I mean ultimately there's just different types of players. On a pvp server in WoW if I was leveling say in Stranglethorn and a high level started camping I'd just log out and go do something else with someone else elsewhere and that was that. As casual a game WoW was I never understood why anyone submitted themselves to corpse camping.. I mean at the very least even the most diehard 'i lvl 1 character at a time' sort of player had a farm / market mule they could spend 15 minutes on and avoid the problem.
To your post specifically I don't think a game that has two people in the same world 90 levels apart being so grossly different from one another is a very good design. I'd rather see more Dungeons & Dragons style 'power levels' for avatars. Look a level 7 Wizard in D&D has an edge up on a level 3 Fighter we all know, but not that much. More or less each D&D character grows in utility and adventure ability as well as combat prowess.
If more MMOs would focus on the massive multiplayer aspects of the design we'd have something better for the pvpers and pvers alike. As it stands the whole of the MMO world has followed a pretty flawed design and could turn to table top designers for another look at how to plan multiplayer games.
A lot of corpse camping could be eliminated if you could span at alternate locations. Right now it's pretty set in stone where you will spawn, which is why corpse camping and grave camping is so rampant. If players could specify where they respawned, things could be a whole lot different. Imagine using death to gain entry to the enemies' base? Tactically that sounds far more interesting than the standard death/respawn scenario.
There is always be the unpleasant minority who will grief and get their jollies ganking considerably weaker enemies though (what % of society are psychopaths/sociopaths?) and these have a disproportionate impact on others gaming experience. I'm with you WRT good design, but part of that has to be a way of preventing this kind of behaviour. Not an easy thing to accomplish.
Ehh, it's not really that big of a problem tho'. I've played a lot of FFA MMOs and never had as bad a time as some people.
To use an example from a previous post I think if you're away from your keyboard for 10 minutes in any game you should be punished somehow. When should inattentive gamers be catered to over people looking to simulate a dangerous combative world?
If developers and the community got behind a 'we're in this together' mentality then they'd find the beauty in playing in a massive multiplayer role playing game. There are other people, different sorts of people, each with their own goal. If your goal is to not die while being logged in and away from keyboard... Then maybe you shouldn't play a computer game?
I think the people afraid of these scenarios make them almost nightmarish in their heads and blow these little things out of proportion.
A simulated dangerous world is best suited with dangerous and intelligent Mobs. I don't find appeal in getting ganked from higher levels or when I'm at half health. These scenarios you say are blown out of proportion is not indicative of all the countless experiences many espouse here or on any forum. If it was then it wouldn't be talked about as much. But because it is, then the scenarios are perfectly indicative of the issues many of us face.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Ehh, it's not really that big of a problem tho'. I've played a lot of FFA MMOs and never had as bad a time as some people.
To use an example from a previous post I think if you're away from your keyboard for 10 minutes in any game you should be punished somehow. When should inattentive gamers be catered to over people looking to simulate a dangerous combative world?
If developers and the community got behind a 'we're in this together' mentality then they'd find the beauty in playing in a massive multiplayer role playing game. There are other people, different sorts of people, each with their own goal. If your goal is to not die while being logged in and away from keyboard... Then maybe you shouldn't play a computer game?
I think the people afraid of these scenarios make them almost nightmarish in their heads and blow these little things out of proportion.
But something is turning off most MMO players from PvP games, besides Eve are games like that only small niche games besides games with separate PvP like GW 1 & 2.
My theory as I said before is the powergap, not really the ganking in itself, what is your take?
I am still certain it ain't because MMOers are a bunch of wusses, there must be something in the PvP games that makes them less fun (but that Eve at least got partly right).
That's your theory because that's how World of Warcraft added PVP to it's solo content leveling game. That's not a very good design.
I cut my PVP teeth in UO, which for it's flaws everyone started out pretty much the same and then you specialized by your actions. I learned then that such games weren't 'solo' activities.
It shouldn't be 'fun' to do anything by yourself in a game designed to be a social massive multiplayer experience. Back to the point tho' my favorite MMO experience was in Shadowbane. It wasn't a very pretty game, had its flaws, but anyone could attack anyone and even pissing off your guild had consequences.
Teamwork mattered, war mattered, choices you made had weight with them. I remember one guy caught a friend and I out rune hunting and killed us, there was a level difference between us but we went two to one with someone higher level and held our own.. But we ultimately lost and that was that. 3 months down the line the guy was on our side in a battle.. My buddy and I marked him, waited for the victory celebrations after a successful bane and then we ganked that guy (matched levels with him by then and grew as players) and took his stuff in front of everyone and had a nice little riot break out.
I mean ultimately there's just different types of players. On a pvp server in WoW if I was leveling say in Stranglethorn and a high level started camping I'd just log out and go do something else with someone else elsewhere and that was that. As casual a game WoW was I never understood why anyone submitted themselves to corpse camping.. I mean at the very least even the most diehard 'i lvl 1 character at a time' sort of player had a farm / market mule they could spend 15 minutes on and avoid the problem.
To your post specifically I don't think a game that has two people in the same world 90 levels apart being so grossly different from one another is a very good design. I'd rather see more Dungeons & Dragons style 'power levels' for avatars. Look a level 7 Wizard in D&D has an edge up on a level 3 Fighter we all know, but not that much. More or less each D&D character grows in utility and adventure ability as well as combat prowess.
If more MMOs would focus on the massive multiplayer aspects of the design we'd have something better for the pvpers and pvers alike. As it stands the whole of the MMO world has followed a pretty flawed design and could turn to table top designers for another look at how to plan multiplayer games.
A lot of corpse camping could be eliminated if you could span at alternate locations. Right now it's pretty set in stone where you will spawn, which is why corpse camping and grave camping is so rampant. If players could specify where they respawned, things could be a whole lot different. Imagine using death to gain entry to the enemies' base? Tactically that sounds far more interesting than the standard death/respawn scenario.
Well a PVP built game would sort of have the 'punishment' for dying be spawing well away from the area you've traveled to. Shadowbane had you spawn either at a world tree or a safe city tree depending on location and a few other circumstances. Good system to keep repeated griefing from happening. It sucked getting jumped when you were moving to a rare spawn or hunting point and a superior force knocked you back, but thems the breaks for not being prepared in a world where it mattered.
But to be fair.. The care bear crowd has grown from hating PVP to hating travelling in MMOs so.. It'd be moot now that fast travel is a trope.
There is always be the unpleasant minority who will grief and get their jollies ganking considerably weaker enemies though (what % of society are psychopaths/sociopaths?) and these have a disproportionate impact on others gaming experience. I'm with you WRT good design, but part of that has to be a way of preventing this kind of behaviour. Not an easy thing to accomplish.
Ehh, it's not really that big of a problem tho'. I've played a lot of FFA MMOs and never had as bad a time as some people.
To use an example from a previous post I think if you're away from your keyboard for 10 minutes in any game you should be punished somehow. When should inattentive gamers be catered to over people looking to simulate a dangerous combative world?
If developers and the community got behind a 'we're in this together' mentality then they'd find the beauty in playing in a massive multiplayer role playing game. There are other people, different sorts of people, each with their own goal. If your goal is to not die while being logged in and away from keyboard... Then maybe you shouldn't play a computer game?
I think the people afraid of these scenarios make them almost nightmarish in their heads and blow these little things out of proportion.
A simulated dangerous world is best suited with dangerous and intelligent Mobs. I don't find appeal in getting ganked from higher levels or when I'm at half health. These scenarios you say are blown out of proportion is not indicative of all the countless experiences many espouse here or on any forum. If it was then it wouldn't be talked about as much. But because it is, then the scenarios are perfectly indicative of the issues many of us face.
It's not indicative because we've had 1 mmo get that a good pve & pvp experience can coexist. WoW's openworld pvp and level system are far from being good sandbox experiences so people comparing that game play to FFA sandbox gameplay is pointing out something that doesn't exist.
A truly dangerous world simulation would have intelligent mobs as well as player characters for people to react properly too. Looking at gear, levels, and if you're due to go take a 10 minute long nap while logged in... Shouldn't apply.
Ehh, it's not really that big of a problem tho'. I've played a lot of FFA MMOs and never had as bad a time as some people.
To use an example from a previous post I think if you're away from your keyboard for 10 minutes in any game you should be punished somehow. When should inattentive gamers be catered to over people looking to simulate a dangerous combative world?
If developers and the community got behind a 'we're in this together' mentality then they'd find the beauty in playing in a massive multiplayer role playing game. There are other people, different sorts of people, each with their own goal. If your goal is to not die while being logged in and away from keyboard... Then maybe you shouldn't play a computer game?
I think the people afraid of these scenarios make them almost nightmarish in their heads and blow these little things out of proportion.
But something is turning off most MMO players from PvP games, besides Eve are games like that only small niche games besides games with separate PvP like GW 1 & 2.
My theory as I said before is the powergap, not really the ganking in itself, what is your take?
I am still certain it ain't because MMOers are a bunch of wusses, there must be something in the PvP games that makes them less fun (but that Eve at least got partly right).
Easy answer is that the majority of players want a PvE environment. I think all the data proves this. I think PvP is best suited to games like FPS's and MOBA's.
I know I loathe PvP in any form and even though I know I am in a small demography the majority only want consensual PvP but enjoy PvE more. Especially when leveling or progression. Hardly anyone wants the hassle of interrupting progression to deal with PvP when the much easier solution is to separate the 2 through alternate means. Such as Instanced PvP or RvR areas.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Ehh, it's not really that big of a problem tho'. I've played a lot of FFA MMOs and never had as bad a time as some people.
To use an example from a previous post I think if you're away from your keyboard for 10 minutes in any game you should be punished somehow. When should inattentive gamers be catered to over people looking to simulate a dangerous combative world?
If developers and the community got behind a 'we're in this together' mentality then they'd find the beauty in playing in a massive multiplayer role playing game. There are other people, different sorts of people, each with their own goal. If your goal is to not die while being logged in and away from keyboard... Then maybe you shouldn't play a computer game?
I think the people afraid of these scenarios make them almost nightmarish in their heads and blow these little things out of proportion.
But something is turning off most MMO players from PvP games, besides Eve are games like that only small niche games besides games with separate PvP like GW 1 & 2.
My theory as I said before is the powergap, not really the ganking in itself, what is your take?
I am still certain it ain't because MMOers are a bunch of wusses, there must be something in the PvP games that makes them less fun (but that Eve at least got partly right).
Easy answer is that the majority of players want a PvE environment. I think all the data proves this. I think PvP is best suited to games like FPS's and MOBA's.
I know I loathe PvP in any form and even though I know I am in a small demography the majority only want consensual PvP but enjoy PvE more. Especially when leveling or progression. Hardly anyone wants the hassle of interrupting progression to deal with PvP when the much easier solution is to separate the 2 through alternate means. Such as Instanced PvP or RvR areas.
Separate has gave us a decade of very stale and terrible game design. I can make as strong argument that PVE only shines in single player offline games.
Making PVE only MMOs has ran its course and it's time for people to start recognizing each other in games as something more than raid ratings.
There's a lot territory for the medium to explore by offering a strong PVE game along side a strong PVP game in a sandbox environment. If you take away one from the other then you'll keep making the same games over and over and overs.
MOBAs lack something RPGers are looking for. Themeparks lack something that gamers are looking for.
Comments
Erm, you haven't played EVE then because people there complain about carebears all the time
If player's concern is primarily crafting over shooting other players, he is a crafter.
But if your argument does not hold and support your stance, invent a new term!
"He is not a crafter, he is a "casual PVPer""!
And voila, the game is suddenly full of PVPers!
Same story:
"The game is a themepark."
"No no, it it's a sandpark! It has got sandbox features!, etc."
Why were you waiting isntead of playing the game...?
Exactly.
A lot of the 'in-game punishment' suggestions are really just an attempt to fool people into thinking that the issue is not as big a problem as it is and gives the players an illusion of power. Generally any in-game anti-griefing punishments that would satisfy my desire for 'justice', would result in the griefers quitting the game enmasse.
It reminds me of how CCP tried to 'soft ban' certain newbie-unfriendly behaviours in EVE. In the end they gave up and instituted an out-of-game ban for those behaviours.
That is half my point yes. The second (as you seems to get) is that the powergap destroys PvP.
Yes, there should be difference between noobs and vets in a MMO but not what we have today. For good PvP the powergap should be about that a really badly playing vet would be just beaten by a brilliantly playing noob, together with a lot more customization possibilities for the vet.
And that isn't what most so called "hardcore" PvP fans want to hear but it would make combat a lot more fun.
Skip PvE, lower the powergap and put more focus in making guild owned fortresses and dungeons.
Answer: The game offers gameplay options that cannot be found in another game and thus players are wiling to 'suffer' through the FFA PvP.
Personally, I have tried playing EVE twice over the last ten years but after months of playing the PvP aspect just got to be too much for me. I like a ton of stuff about EVE but not the FFA PvP.
Funny thing is, you have exactly that part in red in games like Darkfall yet people still complain.
In DFO you had a lot of good players who at some point created alts or rerolled new characters and while still in low end gear with crap stats were going around just destroying people still on their main character with months worth of stats and some of the better gear. Even after I had only been playing a few weeks with half assed stats and running around in leather armor and r20-30s I was still capable of taking down people with maxed stats + dragon armor.
In DFUW, it became slightly more stat & gear based than DFO but you also had the addition of safe zones which offered enough prowess in them to practically max out your main class & stats within a week or so, 2 weeks if you were somewhat casual, and plenty of resources to make some decent gear. By the time you were forced to leave the safe zones to progress you were at or above the threshold of being considered PvP viable unless you willingly chose to leave early. Yet you still had people raging in chat daily about people attacking "noobs" outside the SZ as if someone was forcing them to go out undergeared and low on stats.
Both games offered a setting where skill wins out over gear and stats. You could be maxed out and in the best gear, but if you cant hit someone and are constantly getting hit by them, youre going to lose. Just like in an FPS. Yet there was still the constant whining about power gaps and being undergeared by bad players.
I agree with the OP. I've heard PvP is only fun when there's fresh meat to gank. Once that runs out, the server pretty much dies.
On the one hand I agree with you; one reason I left Eve was the toxic profanity. But I'm sure there are great, loyal, hard-working people there. I wish Eve would make a fantasy themed game!
On Rallos Zek (EQ Server) in 2000, among the asshats were some very dedicated and loyal players.
Great system and argument! Let's add outlaws too. Gank some folks and the only bank which will talk to you lies in a distant isle; getting to it is dangrous and so is being there.
Alternatively, the value of items stolen could be tallied up and offered as bounty. Higher bounty means stronger NPC hunters; and death to them means losing all carried/worn gear.
Brilliant post Beatnik59. Kinda like how a $million of defense can be overcome by $50 of offense.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Isn't it what most PvE and (real) PvP players would want though? For griefers to leave.
I mean, unless you care about griefers, having them leaving the game en-masse is exactly the desired outcome - for PvE players as much as ("proper") PvP players.
About not wanting the behaviour:
It's not about "not wanting the behaviour", it's about giving the player freedom and the tools to enjoy the game in their own way... While discouraging every player to engage in risk free behaviour (and thus, continuous) which is detrimental to the enjoyment of the game for another chunk of the players.
In other words, if a player could kill a player but doing so (and getting caught, in defined circumstances) could mean losing your progress, items, account wide permanent penalties, etc. then a lot of players would think twice about doing it (instead of griefers able to kill easy picks without any penalties).
You would also get players that would band together and take the risk for the adrenaline, enjoyment (and hopefully rewards) of playing this type of character. Thus high risk, high reward.
If the whole point is just to have high risk and high reward, you don't even need pvp to do it ... why go through all the trouble of discourage a behavior, make it high risk, and at the same time knowing if anyone is taking this route, he may be pissing off the pve players?
Just make a high risk, high reward pvp-only game, or pve-only game.
So a game needs content to be successful?
Yup. I agree.
Really the pvp hate came from a time when MMOs were growing. I think the community is mature enough now to where there could very well be a free for all loot, player vs player, content driven game without too many people batting an eye.
It'd just need to be a good design from the start.
That's the problem tho'.
a yo ho ho
There is always be the unpleasant minority who will grief and get their jollies ganking considerably weaker enemies though (what % of society are psychopaths/sociopaths?) and these have a disproportionate impact on others gaming experience. I'm with you WRT good design, but part of that has to be a way of preventing this kind of behaviour. Not an easy thing to accomplish.
I didn't say that people wouldn't complain, just that it is the right thing to do to get MMO PvP more fun.
Darkfall do indeed do some things right, but it also have issues and while people were interested at launch I doubt that most people even heard of DFUW.
With a better engine, less focus on gear (yeah, it isn't much focus compared to game like Wow but there is still a bit too much) and a better UI that game could have become way more popular.
There will always be some whining no matter what you do, heck even FPS games have whiners (that weapon is OP and so on...) but this is the right way to goif you want to make PvP as popular as PvE...
Problem is just that even if DF have some good ideas it ain't a good enough game to become really large, they might be on the right track with the powergap but there is a lot more you need to do (like I said in my post on page 3 in this thread).
Ehh, it's not really that big of a problem tho'. I've played a lot of FFA MMOs and never had as bad a time as some people.
To use an example from a previous post I think if you're away from your keyboard for 10 minutes in any game you should be punished somehow. When should inattentive gamers be catered to over people looking to simulate a dangerous combative world?
If developers and the community got behind a 'we're in this together' mentality then they'd find the beauty in playing in a massive multiplayer role playing game. There are other people, different sorts of people, each with their own goal. If your goal is to not die while being logged in and away from keyboard... Then maybe you shouldn't play a computer game?
I think the people afraid of these scenarios make them almost nightmarish in their heads and blow these little things out of proportion.
a yo ho ho
It is easy, if people aren't considerably weaker the problem would solve itself. Or at least they would have to move in larger groups to gank and that is both easier to spot for avoiding and to track down and take out for angry guildies.
It is a big difference between ganking someone that is 30% or even 50% weaker than you and people with zero chance of killing you, most gankers I seen don't play that very well (guildies used to ask me to take out corpse campers and similar in older games, few were particularly hard to take care off, more than a few ran away as soon as they saw someone close to their own level).
But something is turning off most MMO players from PvP games, besides Eve are games like that only small niche games besides games with separate PvP like GW 1 & 2.
My theory as I said before is the powergap, not really the ganking in itself, what is your take?
I am still certain it ain't because MMOers are a bunch of wusses, there must be something in the PvP games that makes them less fun (but that Eve at least got partly right).
That's your theory because that's how World of Warcraft added PVP to it's solo content leveling game. That's not a very good design.
I cut my PVP teeth in UO, which for it's flaws everyone started out pretty much the same and then you specialized by your actions. I learned then that such games weren't 'solo' activities.
It shouldn't be 'fun' to do anything by yourself in a game designed to be a social massive multiplayer experience. Back to the point tho' my favorite MMO experience was in Shadowbane. It wasn't a very pretty game, had its flaws, but anyone could attack anyone and even pissing off your guild had consequences.
Teamwork mattered, war mattered, choices you made had weight with them. I remember one guy caught a friend and I out rune hunting and killed us, there was a level difference between us but we went two to one with someone higher level and held our own.. But we ultimately lost and that was that. 3 months down the line the guy was on our side in a battle.. My buddy and I marked him, waited for the victory celebrations after a successful bane and then we ganked that guy (matched levels with him by then and grew as players) and took his stuff in front of everyone and had a nice little riot break out.
I mean ultimately there's just different types of players. On a pvp server in WoW if I was leveling say in Stranglethorn and a high level started camping I'd just log out and go do something else with someone else elsewhere and that was that. As casual a game WoW was I never understood why anyone submitted themselves to corpse camping.. I mean at the very least even the most diehard 'i lvl 1 character at a time' sort of player had a farm / market mule they could spend 15 minutes on and avoid the problem.
To your post specifically I don't think a game that has two people in the same world 90 levels apart being so grossly different from one another is a very good design. I'd rather see more Dungeons & Dragons style 'power levels' for avatars. Look a level 7 Wizard in D&D has an edge up on a level 3 Fighter we all know, but not that much. More or less each D&D character grows in utility and adventure ability as well as combat prowess.
If more MMOs would focus on the massive multiplayer aspects of the design we'd have something better for the pvpers and pvers alike. As it stands the whole of the MMO world has followed a pretty flawed design and could turn to table top designers for another look at how to plan multiplayer games.
a yo ho ho
This is clearly a person who has never played EVE.
There is a MASSIVE PvE only base in EvE. Miners, Mission Runners, Shippers, etc.
I dont have the numbers, but i'd be willing to bet large sums of money that less than 50% of EVE's playerbase have ever set foot into nullsec or something like a wormhole.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Well that's the point of the main topic.
A good sandbox will have it's epic PVP wars along side it's well thought out and planned PVE experience. Having more one or the other doesn't make for a very unique experience any longer.
There's a lot of PVE in EvE, but it's directly connected and affected by the more infamous PVP gameplay experience.
a yo ho ho
A lot of corpse camping could be eliminated if you could span at alternate locations. Right now it's pretty set in stone where you will spawn, which is why corpse camping and grave camping is so rampant. If players could specify where they respawned, things could be a whole lot different. Imagine using death to gain entry to the enemies' base? Tactically that sounds far more interesting than the standard death/respawn scenario.
A simulated dangerous world is best suited with dangerous and intelligent Mobs. I don't find appeal in getting ganked from higher levels or when I'm at half health. These scenarios you say are blown out of proportion is not indicative of all the countless experiences many espouse here or on any forum. If it was then it wouldn't be talked about as much. But because it is, then the scenarios are perfectly indicative of the issues many of us face.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Well a PVP built game would sort of have the 'punishment' for dying be spawing well away from the area you've traveled to. Shadowbane had you spawn either at a world tree or a safe city tree depending on location and a few other circumstances. Good system to keep repeated griefing from happening. It sucked getting jumped when you were moving to a rare spawn or hunting point and a superior force knocked you back, but thems the breaks for not being prepared in a world where it mattered.
But to be fair.. The care bear crowd has grown from hating PVP to hating travelling in MMOs so.. It'd be moot now that fast travel is a trope.
a yo ho ho
It's not indicative because we've had 1 mmo get that a good pve & pvp experience can coexist. WoW's openworld pvp and level system are far from being good sandbox experiences so people comparing that game play to FFA sandbox gameplay is pointing out something that doesn't exist.
A truly dangerous world simulation would have intelligent mobs as well as player characters for people to react properly too. Looking at gear, levels, and if you're due to go take a 10 minute long nap while logged in... Shouldn't apply.
a yo ho ho
Easy answer is that the majority of players want a PvE environment. I think all the data proves this. I think PvP is best suited to games like FPS's and MOBA's.
I know I loathe PvP in any form and even though I know I am in a small demography the majority only want consensual PvP but enjoy PvE more. Especially when leveling or progression. Hardly anyone wants the hassle of interrupting progression to deal with PvP when the much easier solution is to separate the 2 through alternate means. Such as Instanced PvP or RvR areas.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Separate has gave us a decade of very stale and terrible game design. I can make as strong argument that PVE only shines in single player offline games.
Making PVE only MMOs has ran its course and it's time for people to start recognizing each other in games as something more than raid ratings.
There's a lot territory for the medium to explore by offering a strong PVE game along side a strong PVP game in a sandbox environment. If you take away one from the other then you'll keep making the same games over and over and overs.
MOBAs lack something RPGers are looking for. Themeparks lack something that gamers are looking for.
a yo ho ho