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[Column] General: The Self-Playing MMO Scourge

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Comments

  • mayito7777mayito7777 Saint Cloud, FLPosts: 636Member Uncommon

    And the lack of the social aspect of  games is what  makes the same sad game after game after game after game.

    We need to get the multiplayer aspect back into MMORPG and you will never get it with the same stupid game carbon copied and repeated to the End Times.

    We need a new type of game that is more social interactive, give the players the ability to develop on their own social aspects of the game. To me creating an open sand box game where you can assume whatever role you please and switch roles without having to re-roll a new character and without been punished for it.

    want 7 free days of playing? Try this

    http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY

  • QuizzicalQuizzical Posts: 14,779Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Benbrada
    I agree with Bill on the quizzical thinking of, "who's playing these?" and how are they seeing enough money that others continue to spring up everyday?

    Yeah, I do think that sometimes.  :p

    -----

    Part of the issue is that it's cheap to make a really bad game that was meant to be a cheap, mediocre game right from the start.  This is especially so now that we have cheap game engines geared toward making it easy for mediocre developers to make mediocre games without needing the full source code.  If it's cheap enough to make a game, it doesn't have to bring in very much revenue to be profitable.

  • BillMurphyBillMurphy Managing Editor Berea, OHPosts: 2,357MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Isnt this just another if I dont like it you can't either post? Dont get me wrong I think all those games suck but how is this any different than when we see someone say gw2 for example sucks and is bad for the genre.

    This.

     

    I think Bill is just trying to get a little street cred back by pandering to the cynics out there. Still the false gw2 sales numbers stands without an asterisk added or retraction. This site desperately needs a managing editor.

    Thanks for the friendly reminder. Updated the news post and the MMOFTW video has long had an annotation on its playback. 

  • BillMurphyBillMurphy Managing Editor Berea, OHPosts: 2,357MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by Benbrada
    I agree with Bill on the quizzical thinking of, "who's playing these?" and how are they seeing enough money that others continue to spring up everyday?

    Yeah, I do think that sometimes.  :p

    -----

    Part of the issue is that it's cheap to make a really bad game that was meant to be a cheap, mediocre game right from the start.  This is especially so now that we have cheap game engines geared toward making it easy for mediocre developers to make mediocre games without needing the full source code.  If it's cheap enough to make a game, it doesn't have to bring in very much revenue to be profitable.

     

    I think what bothers me most about these games is that some poor souls have to make them. They got into the work because they probably wanted to make good, original games... And this is what happens. It's like when you're a kid and want to be a cop, and when you finally become one you realize it's 90% paper work and 10% traffic duty.

    I don't want the people out of jobs, but the games need to stop being made this way. Period.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by BillMurphy
    Originally posted by Foomerang   Originally posted by DamonVile Isnt this just another if I dont like it you can't either post? Dont get me wrong I think all those games suck but how is this any different than when we see someone say gw2 for example sucks and is bad for the genre.
    This.  I think Bill is just trying to get a little street cred back by pandering to the cynics out there. Still the false gw2 sales numbers stands without an asterisk added or retraction. This site desperately needs a managing editor.
    Thanks for the friendly reminder. Updated the news post and the MMOFTW video has long had an annotation on its playback. 

    Thanks for doing your job.
  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,204Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BillMurphy
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by Benbrada
    I agree with Bill on the quizzical thinking of, "who's playing these?" and how are they seeing enough money that others continue to spring up everyday?

    Yeah, I do think that sometimes.  :p

    -----

    Part of the issue is that it's cheap to make a really bad game that was meant to be a cheap, mediocre game right from the start.  This is especially so now that we have cheap game engines geared toward making it easy for mediocre developers to make mediocre games without needing the full source code.  If it's cheap enough to make a game, it doesn't have to bring in very much revenue to be profitable.

     

    I think what bothers me most about these games is that some poor souls have to make them. They got into the work because they probably wanted to make good, original games... And this is what happens. It's like when you're a kid and want to be a cop, and when you finally become one you realize it's 90% paper work and 10% traffic duty.

    I don't want the people out of jobs, but the games need to stop being made this way. Period.

    Why do they need to stop being made? If people play them then why not let them have what they like to play?

    Where do you draw the lines? What sort of automation is unacceptable and what is not? Is clicking a link in the quest objective and having it auto-run you to the destination okay or not? Are ports and fast travel locations acceptable? What features absolutely constitute that the game is unacceptable and shouldn't be made?

    I ask these questions because it's easy to agree on vagaries, but they don't really accomplish anything. Let's say we all agree, "Games that play themselves are bad." That doesn't change anything specific. What games? What features? Why? To be effective we would need to name games and publishers and stick it to them. Would this and other sites be willing to forego advert revenue to not promote those games and publishers? Gamers only shoulder part of the burden here. The rest of the industry needs to do its part.

  • LordZeikLordZeik mushu pork, NJPosts: 269Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by BillMurphy
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by Benbrada
    I agree with Bill on the quizzical thinking of, "who's playing these?" and how are they seeing enough money that others continue to spring up everyday?

    Yeah, I do think that sometimes.  :p

    -----

    Part of the issue is that it's cheap to make a really bad game that was meant to be a cheap, mediocre game right from the start.  This is especially so now that we have cheap game engines geared toward making it easy for mediocre developers to make mediocre games without needing the full source code.  If it's cheap enough to make a game, it doesn't have to bring in very much revenue to be profitable.

     

    I think what bothers me most about these games is that some poor souls have to make them. They got into the work because they probably wanted to make good, original games... And this is what happens. It's like when you're a kid and want to be a cop, and when you finally become one you realize it's 90% paper work and 10% traffic duty.

    I don't want the people out of jobs, but the games need to stop being made this way. Period.

    Why do they need to stop being made? If people play them then why not let them have what they like to play?

    Where do you draw the lines? What sort of automation is unacceptable and what is not? Is clicking a link in the quest objective and having it auto-run you to the destination okay or not? Are ports and fast travel locations acceptable? What features absolutely constitute that the game is unacceptable and shouldn't be made?

    I ask these questions because it's easy to agree on vagaries, but they don't really accomplish anything. Let's say we all agree, "Games that play themselves are bad." That doesn't change anything specific. What games? What features? Why? To be effective we would need to name games and publishers and stick it to them. Would this and other sites be willing to forego advert revenue to not promote those games and publishers? Gamers only shoulder part of the burden here. The rest of the industry needs to do its part.

    I cant speak for other web browser based "mmos" but I can certainly say r2 is a heavy p2w company run by former gold seller Jason Pagoda(or whatever his name is) As for letting people play what they want and do it their way. Yeah let's not..... We now got people paying hundreds of dollars for alphas/beta stages of games. That may or may not even be a said alpha or beta.... These kinda eyesores need to be pointed out and turned away from. Now if you enjoy grabbing roses and getting pricked by thorns that is cool. No one can ever take that away from you. However, I wouldn't want the next ten unsuspecting people to bleed for your enjoyment.

  • SkuallSkuall UnknowPosts: 1,284Member Uncommon

    i tried 1 just to see....and wtf u dont even play , u just click ok ok ok until u are bored ,the game has autopathing and battles? looks cool but dont choose skills or who to attack the game does all the work for u ...how any1 can find that remotly fun is beyond me

  • JorendoJorendo EdePosts: 263Member

    I wonder who those people are that keep spending money on these games. I mean as you said there is a ton of these games out there. Not only mmorpg do you see advertisements of MMO's that will raise your brow, you see them everywhere all over the internet. All those advertisements cost them a lot of money but they wouldn't do it if it wasn't profitable. So who are these people that keep playing and paying for these MMO's?

     

    About the moba's...that won't be in the next few years. The Moba genre is already overflowing with crappy games. There are already way to many that just copy each other. Like the transformers MOBA, there is no reason why that game should be alive, yet it is. And every developer seems to make a MOBA these day's and why? Will LoL and Dota players leave their game to invest time and money in a new MOBA? I doubt it.

  • fearufearu Your mom's pantiesPosts: 142Member Uncommon

    Yay finally a column on mmorpg.com I agree with. These things need to die, I want less web browser MMO-lite cash grabs on my dedicated MMORPG news website.

     

    That said, I'd prefer they pay the bills rather then thinly worded shill articles that we see on here sometimes, e.g. anything on ESO.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,758Member Uncommon
    Indeed, but if any new MMO tries anything different it gets panned. Make sure you have the same template, same easymode or be prepared for 'failed' reviews. The MMOs Bill has mentioned are just the same as mainsteam MMOs but with those design principles taken much further. And as we have witnessed a never ending journey to more easymode and more solo it is only going to keep heading in that direction.
  • AkumawraithAkumawraith Fort wayne, INPosts: 335Member Common

    The problem as i see it with these games is this:

     

    The MMOs need good story development, graphics, and new and innovative gameplay design, however these things cost money and time that the dipshit publishers either cant afford or refuse to pay.

     

    Looking back on the last 15 years of MMOs i have to say that it has come full circle. WoW was released in 2004, and 10 years later Wildstar is released. And during this recycle the lack of creativity has been rampant. no one had really tried to think out side the box.

     

    Dont make it too complicated... the players might have epileptic fits...

    You dont have to work on the story and make it interesting... most players cant read or dont bother with it....

    once we get this game up and make a few bucks off of it... we will follow Koticks prediction and make a version in an app....

     

    They sound like horrible sick jokes, but I can damn near guarantee that in board rooms around the world those exact phrases have fallen from the mouths of greedy pin heads.

     

    If the players want to see changes in the gaming industry they need to stop pandering to the half assed games that are released and like the 80's slogan..."Just say no", However unlike that failed program the players hold more power over the corporatiuons, they arent a weak willed government but a coalition of millions of players from mutliple platforms. Profits affect the endgame, without the players these thieves and charlatans couldnt operate.

     

    Im not for anyone losing a job, however if you arent putting out good product would you expect to keep your job?

     

     

    Played: UO, LotR, WoW, SWG, DDO, AoC, EVE, Warhammer, TF2, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, CSS, KF, L4D, AoW, WoT

    Playing: The Secret World until Citadel of Sorcery goes into Alpha testing.

    Tired of: Linear quest games, dailies, and dumbed down games

    Anticipating:Citadel of Sorcery

  • rounnerrounner CanberraPosts: 602Member Uncommon

    Don't play these games, dunno what the rants about but I'd always assumed there were games that kids played that were off my radar.

    Who's to say how many is 'too many' anyway?

  • kb4blukb4blu Fuquay Varina, NCPosts: 683Member Uncommon

    You want these games to die, but you take the money from their advertising ??  Seems a bit of double standard there.

     

  • MorgarenMorgaren Richwood, TXPosts: 394Member

    Wow, a lot of people are being too harsh on Bill. He has to a lot of times abstain from saying his opinion because he has to attempt to allow free speech. If he hates Rift, and always bashes Rift, then no one will talk about Rift, right?

     

    Then I see a lot of flac about him giving wrong numbers on GW 2 sales. Well, if you want breaking news as it happens, sometimes you get wrong info, if you want it double fact checked and perfect you actually read it in print, not on the internet.

     

    Bill thanks for the glimpse into what you actually think. And don't feel bad about taking the game studios money, if you don't someone will, and at least your site generates enough traffic I'm sure its not incredibly cheap. Bleed them dry so they don't have money to make more crap games, cause I am pretty sure no one on this site plays these crap games.

  • JimyHumuHumuJimyHumuHumu BilbaoPosts: 250Member

    r2 games doesnt like this topic.

     

    i believe they are uncrowned kings of selfplaying-rehashed-cloned-browser games. and they are trying really hard. every single game of r2 has like 4000 servers, with new servers opening on daily basis (because thats the only way to 'catch up' in those games, by playing from day 1 AND having tons of $ to spend on level 419 wings and such).

     

    not to mention they have like 40 games that are clones of their 1st browser game, with different themes attached to it, lol

  • itchmonitchmon west islip, NYPosts: 1,714Member Uncommon

    I hope once the kickstarted games that are currently in alpha and beta get released, they will be able to suck up a lot of the advertising space on this site (as well as the coverage, which thankfully is one thing this site does very well... cover the kickstarter funded games like CU) thereby relegating the clone games to the trash heap where they belong.

     

    I do feel that, in spite of the bad games that this article highlights (lowlights!!),  we are about to see silver age (or, golden age 2 if you prefer; i used the comic book term) of mmos thanks to the crowdfunding bandwagon ushering in games where the programmers and producers actually interact with the owners (the backers).

     

    and because i dont get to say this a lot, Bill I agree 100% with your article *grin*

    RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

    Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

    Dwight D Eisenhower

    My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.

    Henry Rollins

  • phumbabaphumbaba kuopioPosts: 138Member

    I think some regulation over the terms is overdue. I don't pity the devs as they are no doubt in it for the money, but I do pity kids who might sincerely think they are playing real mmorpg's, when they are poking that ok button. mmo, mmorpg, f2p, p2p, freemium, p2w etc, the advertising is often misleading, though it's sometimes obvious to those of us here. But the answer to your question is most certainly: "kids".

    Don't get me wrong, it's real nice that kids have a lot of games and so, but it would most likely be easier for parents too, if the terms were more clear and advertising inline with what people expect. I'd say the industry is big and old enough for it.

    There should be more categories and they should definitely be more clear. The term mmo these days doesn't mean much at all.

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon

    The game I've been making is browser based.

    Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater because the article reads like "browser-based" is part of the problem.

    You can't imagine the challenges I've had making this game. I could have started in C++ and had complete control over storage and been able to d/l files as needed but without a stand-alone browsers are keen to sandbox data because of the tradition of hacks distributed via sites. It's very difficult to maintain storage on a browser game and the space is limited. Ok, that's not even the start of it - browsers are constantly changing and there are so many of them to keep up with. Even as a web developer I still have to spend most of my free time testing things online after reading the specifications from W3C.

    If you want to remember a game that played itself and wasn't on the web, I'll remind you Civilization 4 or 5. I played it once then the second time accepted all their hints and did the game by clicking yes - it beat the game. I have never since played that game again. Now, was C++ why that game played itself- no, it was the game that did it. I get the sentiment in that regard but I think that you might be blaming the entire browser based usage as an issue when browser games have great potential - they just don't have everything ironed out yet.

    After all, when reporting comes about for other games or opinion articles rarely do you tell us the engine or code used to create it. It's about the game itself being blamed for gameplay, not the programming tech used yet this rant involved the tech as if all games built on that tech have to follow that approach.

    This comment alone in the wrapup is detrimental and focused on the tech instead of placing blame on the game concept.

    But you’ll never catch me paying a dime for anything from web-based MMO “publishers”

    I think you need to separate web/browser based from your rant next time because you are insulting tech that doesn't deserve it. I've been waiting since 1999 to use SVG on the web heavily and last year was the first time I could put it to use on a website for a real client without any complaint of it having too little support. Back when VRML was supposed to mean something yet flash ruled the roost. I mean, it's bad enough the browsers aren't all keeping up with the standards - if reviewers blame coders for this - we may as well toss in the towel because indie is dead without someone using tech others consider too hard. 

    Here's an IE snippet on SVG where you can see in the comments ppl clamoring for it. It IS the future of the web. No more 1g websites. I make websites with page weight under 200k regularly. That extra bandwidth is usable for sockets allowing real-time communication.

    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/03/18/svg-in-ie9-roadmap.aspx

  • grogstormgrogstorm Peyton, COPosts: 304Member Uncommon
    100% Agree.  I think we will see more studios taking us back to our MMO roots.  Games that offer a real challenge and with much less hand holding.  Time will tell but I think it is inevitable.

    Grog

  • zwei2zwei2 SingaporePosts: 361Member

    People at my offices are playing these afk games, and their reasons?

     

    "I can get something done in an MMORPG while I work on my Powerpoint slides."

     

    There, a new niche in the market is arriving, and developers are welcoming it.

    The possibility of the universe collapsing into a singularity is higher than the birth of a perfect MMORPG.

  • FoobarxFoobarx Poway, CAPosts: 451Member

    Elderly people play games on the computer.  They don't have the reflexes young people do.  They have an entire day to waste.  They have money to spend.  These sort of games were written for them.  

     

    I kid you not, my Dad literally sits at the computer all day long except to eat, sleep, and shit.  He spends more hours at the computer than even the most dedicated hard-core gamer you can think of.   He has zero problem sitting there staring at a character reading a book for 2 hours.  It's the kind of games he likes and is able to play.  You and I may find that utterly boring but to him, it's either that or stare out the window.  It's all he cares to do.

     

    There is a huge population of elderly out there.  This is what some of them choose to do.  Judge them not, for you are already headed down the same path if games are your only outlet.  Think about it... really think about it, outside of games, do you really have any other sort of hobbies?  My Dad did nothing but program computers all his life... now the computer is his lifeline because he never did anything else with his time.  Today's gamers tend to exclude all other activities for gaming... do you really think when you're retired you're going to start gardening, or hiking, or traveling?  What you do now, does translate into what you end up doing later.  It's called a habit and habits are hard to break.

  • GyrusGyrus Lost City of ZPosts: 2,335Member

    "But someone must be playing the likes of “Legends of Mor”, “Unlimited Ninja” and more. I’m not going to link those games, either. I wouldn’t subject you to that.  Yes, they really are MMOs. More so than many other games we’ve begun listing. But they’re so laughably bad in everything from their UI, to their localization, to the actual act of playing… I just don’t get how so many keep surfacing."

    Ugh.

    First of all - as you should well know - developer tools are cheap and easy to use now.  

    So, cheap and easy in fact that kids can down load them for free and use them.

    I know an 8 year old who is developing a game ATM.  I am also developing a Browser Based MMO ATM (not like the ones you describe)

    But as I pointed out less than a month ago in this forum in the discussions about Trials of Ascension : Having a cool concept and even a game engine, does not mean you have a working MMO that deserves to be called an MMO.

     

    Yes, they really are MMOs. More so than many other games we’ve begun listing. 

     So if you know that - shouldn't you be looking at yourself (MMORPG.com)?

    How many years ago was it I pointed this out in the thread "Farmville vs MMORPG.com"?

    Farmville has more right to be here than some of the crap listed on this site.  That's MMORPG.com's fault for not looking at your own standards.

    You could start by not starting a sub forum for every idiot dev 'studio' that opens a Kickstarter with some nice concept art and an item mall for a game that isn't even in Alpha yet.

    I’d rather give a developer tons of my money for shiny looking cosmetic items in a game that actually gives me decent content and systems, even if their games are not the best thing since sliced bread.

    Or... and this is a really radical idea... how about not giving either of those developers your money?

    You know, you could actually use your power of self control and consumer influence and say "I will save my money for a developer who produces a quality game I actually want to play.  I can wait.  In the mean time I will stick with games I enjoy even though they might be a bit dated.  But I don't need to keep jumping to the 'next big thing' just for the sake of it"

     

    I realise my rant is a bit off the point YOU were trying to make.  But you skirted many of the issues with this genre and this site.

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

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