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"If you don't like leveling, play an FPS"

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  • kartoolkartool Hamilton, ONPosts: 472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by ElRenmazuo
    Originally posted by Matee
    Originally posted by ElRenmazuo
    ultima online one of the first graphical mmos didnt have levels

     

    skills had levels in UO so...

    Thats not the same as having one global level up, which is what the OP is talking about.

    But it is still leveling up. 

    It's not like leveling up a character at all - you can pick and choose what you want to concentrate on in a game where you can improve skills but don't need to be chasing a proverbial carrot in order to progress. You can choose to level non-combat skills or never even bother to deal with combat in a game where you remove the whole do quests, kill things, get your ding style game. 

  • BoltharBolthar Winter Springs, FLPosts: 62Member

    People won't be happy until they pay their fee for the game, log in, and are at "endgame". *shudder* Where is that instant "I win" button?

    Okay so those of you saying you don't want to level what is the alternative that gives you some kind of character progression? Name one MMO that does not have SOME kind of leveling system be it skill leveling, experience levels, or the likes in order to get to "the end"?

    Personally I would not mind the level 1-X disappearing but then what do you replace it with? What I would replace it with would still be a based system that essentially is "levels".

    My thought would be this get rid of 1-X. Make it so you have achievements. Achievements would then become your "levels".

    As you gain gear in order to equip it you will have to have completed either a set number of achievements OR a specific achievement for specialized gear that would require doing a specific task to get it. Once you hit a number of achievements unlocked your able to access a skill based on the achievements unlocked.

    Sure in my example levels are gone but you still have to have the progression that I am sure the people arguing against levels are against.

    A rose by any other name would smell as sweet....

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loke666
    Originally posted by Apraxis

    And so what? Add a persistent world to a FPS game.. add world progression(not character progression), and you got a MMO.

    You don't need character progression, leveling or that kind of stuff to make a MMO.. and hell, maybe it is even "for some" the worst part of current MMOs.  There is nothing wrong with it. If it would be a RPG is another question.

    The real difference between FPS games and RPGs is not really mechanics wise but about interaction. In RPGs you spend a lot of time talking and interacting with other players or npcs.

    Advancing your character is a good carrot and can be very fun but you could honesty do a FPS game with that as well. But FPS games are all about combat, you could play them for years and never talk or interact with a human or npc besides killing or possibly use a medical/healing skill on them.

    Have you played DayZ? And i tell you.. you actually talk a lot.. almost everytime when you meet another person, even if you don't meet every 10 mins another person. Though, it is mostly ingame voice chat, because as you said it is more twitch, and you can't just stop your awareness and write in the chatbox... similar as with playing other PvP games, like RTS, FPS or MOBAs.

    But you do have interaction in DayZ.. and mostly more and more relevant than in most Themepark MMOs.. yeap.. there you meet every second/minute another player.. but how often do you talk to them? And how often is it relevant, or a serious conversation albeit the usual LFG and other stuff? And how many play those MMORPGs without talking to anyone for years?

    And you can have progression. Just character progression, power gap, doesn't fit into games focused on PvP, and especially as FPS games. But world progression (evolving the world, collecting assets in the world, like my house, my island, my ship, my team target/strategic goal like conquering territory) or more horizontal progression (different set of weapons, vehicels, even skills).

  • BoltharBolthar Winter Springs, FLPosts: 62Member
    Originally posted by kartool
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by ElRenmazuo
    Originally posted by Matee
    Originally posted by ElRenmazuo
    ultima online one of the first graphical mmos didnt have levels

     

    skills had levels in UO so...

    Thats not the same as having one global level up, which is what the OP is talking about.

    But it is still leveling up. 

    It's not like leveling up a character at all - you can pick and choose what you want to concentrate on in a game where you can improve skills but don't need to be chasing a proverbial carrot in order to progress. You can choose to level non-combat skills or never even bother to deal with combat in a game where you remove the whole do quests, kill things, get your ding style game. 

    I disagree leveling up a skill is just like leveling up a character. In fact to some ways leveling up skills is MORE grindy than leveling up in general. EQ1 had both leveling skills AND leveling your character and I will tell you I enjoyed questing to level up my character much more than I enjoyed trying to get 9 levels lower than me monsters to hit on me to get my defense skill up because I was a cleric who was not SUPPOSED to be hit and in a good group you don't get hit much at all.

  • kartoolkartool Hamilton, ONPosts: 472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bolthar

    People won't be happy until they pay their fee for the game, log in, and are at "endgame". *shudder* Where is that instant "I win" button?

    Okay so those of you saying you don't want to level what is the alternative that gives you some kind of character progression? Name one MMO that does not have SOME kind of leveling system be it skill leveling, experience levels, or the likes in order to get to "the end"?

    Personally I would not mind the level 1-X disappearing but then what do you replace it with? What I would replace it with would still be a based system that essentially is "levels".

    My thought would be this get rid of 1-X. Make it so you have achievements. Achievements would then become your "levels".

    As you gain gear in order to equip it you will have to have completed either a set number of achievements OR a specific achievement for specialized gear that would require doing a specific task to get it. Once you hit a number of achievements unlocked your able to access a skill based on the achievements unlocked.

    Sure in my example levels are gone but you still have to have the progression that I am sure the people arguing against levels are against.

    A rose by any other name would smell as sweet....

    I think the original point is, is you can have progression without levels. I'd take your example a step further and have it so you can gain the achievements you want to concentrate on. You get to pick and choose what you do, you don't necessarily have to walk the rails through the quest hubs to progress your character. If you want to concentrate on crafting, then the stuff in game you would do would be crafting based. If you wanted straight up combat, questing, pvp, etc then you could concentrate on those things and progress along those lines. 

  • kartoolkartool Hamilton, ONPosts: 472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bolthar
    Originally posted by kartool
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by ElRenmazuo
    Originally posted by Matee
    Originally posted by ElRenmazuo
    ultima online one of the first graphical mmos didnt have levels

     

    skills had levels in UO so...

    Thats not the same as having one global level up, which is what the OP is talking about.

    But it is still leveling up. 

    It's not like leveling up a character at all - you can pick and choose what you want to concentrate on in a game where you can improve skills but don't need to be chasing a proverbial carrot in order to progress. You can choose to level non-combat skills or never even bother to deal with combat in a game where you remove the whole do quests, kill things, get your ding style game. 

    I disagree leveling up a skill is just like leveling up a character. In fact to some ways leveling up skills is MORE grindy than leveling up in general. EQ1 had both leveling skills AND leveling your character and I will tell you I enjoyed questing to level up my character much more than I enjoyed trying to get 9 levels lower than me monsters to hit on me to get my defense skill up because I was a cleric who was not SUPPOSED to be hit and in a good group you don't get hit much at all.

    There's no reason someone would have to make a game like EQ1 in order to make a game where you progress without leveling your character in the traditional manner. You could have a game where just using a skill makes it better. So whatever you choose to do, you will get better at. If combat is what you choose to do, your character will get better at combat - opening up combat skills once you reach a certain proficiency or granting skills based on tasks.  Yes, at the core it would be leveling those skills but it would be very different that what people talk about when they talk about leveling in MMOs.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by nomotag
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by nomotag
    I may not like it myself, but mmos are somewhat defined by leveling an other progression systems. It is a mmos most persistent feature. Player interaction is less common then leveling up.

    Without leveling up, there is no purpose of an MMO.  All forms of progression are functionally the same, whether you get levels or you just get skill points, after all, many games just give you skill points when you ding anyhow, that's their means of allowing you to change your character over time.

    Player interaction just isn't necessary if the players don't want to do it.

    Having the game change over time is a really good argument to include leveling. Though there are other ways to have this change. CoD has a leveling system, but the inserting thing about it is it's more of a loop then a straight line. You level up to max level, but then you can reset all your levels and unlocks to get a little marker next to your name. It's kind of a neat way to do it. Also some mobas have a system where you have a rotating set of heroes, so every month is different then the last. (Unless you pay money o ruin it :P)

    I would argue that most things in MMOs don't change much over time.  You level up, you get to fight a differently colored monster that acts exactly the same as the last one you fought.  Every once in a while, they make a new model and you get to fight different colored versions of that for a couple of levels.  It really doesn't mean much and honestly, I have no respect at all for people whose purpose in playing a game is dick waving.  Who cares what level you are or how many times you've been through the system or what funny doo-dads you have next to your name?  

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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  • OmaliOmali MMO Business Correspondent Orchard Park, NYPosts: 1,114Member Uncommon
    Does that statement even work anymore? I can't think of many FPS titles that don't have leveling systems.

    Check out my monthly column on MMORPG.com.

    image

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tolmos

    There are 3 threads on this front page alone that have replies similar to the title of this thread.

    Whenever someone says this, I can't help but think that they don't actually understand what an MMO is, or what it entails. To them, an MMO is leveling. That's it; they think that if you take away the levels, all you are left with is a First Person Shoot. I find that immensely strange.

    MMOs involve persistent worlds. They involve world player caps that extend into the thousands (as opposed to FPS' several hundred player caps) and player economies that have varying degrees of complexity (from WoW's simplistic AH system to EVE's "need an accounting degree to figure out wtf I'm doing" market scheme). They involve player interaction beyond just shooting them in the face, and these days involve world events that hundreds of players from around the game world can take place in. They have cities, towns, hamlets and little camps all around to explore and see.

    And yet, these people don't see that. All they see are levels. Take those away, and as far as they are concerned, it would just another FPS.

    How much of the MMO genre gets lost on your average player, so consumed with 1 single aspect of (leveling, questing, PvP, Raiding, etc) that they miss EVERYTHING else? 

    This is just odd to me.

    This is just people being resistant to change.

    Most of these people make claims such as 'the genre would be sooo much better if these idiot would just (insert doing the same thing that's been done for years)'.

    The thing that amuses me about the whole lvling debate, is that there are numerous RPGs that ignore lvling completely, and some r classics to us gamers. Perhaps the largest example of this is 'The Legend of Zelda'. One of the oldest RPG IPs, one of the big classic games, no lvls, and yet we still pretend like levels are essential to making an RPG.

    Most people don't think about games in terms of what actually goes into making them. They don't think about why certain systems work and others don't. They don't think about the tradeoffs games have when implementing certain features. All most people see is 'i played this one game, it had this, why don't all games do this'.

    It's ignorance, it's a part of human nature, but what can you really do about it.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
     

    I would argue that most things in MMOs don't change much over time.

    Of course they do. For example, MMOs are moving from world games (like EQ) into more like lobby games (like WoW). Don't tell me that is not a big change.

     

  • nomotagnomotag Posts: 131Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Cephus404
     

    I would argue that most things in MMOs don't change much over time.

    Of course they do. For example, MMOs are moving from world games (like EQ) into more like lobby games (like WoW). Don't tell me that is not a big change.

     

    They were talking more about how the game changes as you level. Like how level one plays like this, but level 50 plays like that. Not about different mmos.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by nomotag
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Cephus404
     

    I would argue that most things in MMOs don't change much over time.

    Of course they do. For example, MMOs are moving from world games (like EQ) into more like lobby games (like WoW). Don't tell me that is not a big change.

     

    They were talking more about how the game changes as you level. Like how level one plays like this, but level 50 plays like that. Not about different mmos.

    Of course they do (too).

    Leveling is like a single player campaign with one-time quests.

    At max level, MMOs play like lobby co-op grinding game with repeatable dungeon running, or instanced pvp ... sound very different to me.

     

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    I think there is a misunderstanding. There are two types of people in the 'we dont want to level' crowd.

     

    1. The type that doesnt want to QUEST grind in order to be able to explore the edges of the map or plant a home in some far off land, or discover hidden things. 

    2. people who just want to win and your right they need to be playing arenas 

     

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • loulakiloulaki PatrasPosts: 918Member
    Originally posted by ElRenmazuo
    ultima online one of the first graphical mmos didnt have levels

    also EVE (the OP mentions) doesn't have leveling ...

    image

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Cephus404
     

    I would argue that most things in MMOs don't change much over time.

    Of course they do. For example, MMOs are moving from world games (like EQ) into more like lobby games (like WoW). Don't tell me that is not a big change.

     

    That isn't what was being discussed, we were talking about what happens within the game over time, not over the genre.  You might want to read the whole post instead of just replying to a single sentence out of context.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by loulaki
    Originally posted by ElRenmazuo
    ultima online one of the first graphical mmos didnt have levels

    also EVE (the OP mentions) doesn't have leveling ...

    But it does have skills, which operate the same way.  All of it is a means of measuring progression.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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  • AeonbladesAeonblades Home, GAPosts: 2,083Member
    What's funny is, FPS games now have levels and ranks to get to unlock new gear. So really, FPS games have copied the RPG formula of leveling. I find it amusing that people say levels need to go away and developers instead add them to more genres. Someone likes leveling, even in FPS games, or they wouldn't sell.

    Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
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  • YoungCaesarYoungCaesar San Diego, CAPosts: 297Member Uncommon

    Why not have both? Why cant an MMORPG (which mostly have shit almost turn based combat) have FPS combat in this age of better internet in a persistent world? Add to that a system like UO where you lvl your skills instead of your character (as long as the power gap is small between a noob and a fully maxed character) so it doesnt break the combat and you end up with a MMOFPS.

     

    Just imagine Chivalry online or Mount and Blade in a persistent world with crafting and pve mobs/resources, house & city building, now that would be a hell of a game.

  • SoandsosoSoandsoso Richmond Hill, ONPosts: 533Member
    Originally posted by YoungCaesar

    Why not have both? Why cant an MMORPG (which mostly have shit almost turn based combat) have FPS combat in this age of better internet in a persistent world? Add to that a system like UO where you lvl your skills instead of your character (as long as the power gap is small between a noob and a fully maxed character) so it doesnt break the combat and you end up with a MMOFPS.

     

    Just imagine Chivalry online or Mount and Blade in a persistent world with crafting and pve mobs/resources, house & city building, now that would be a hell of a game.

    I have yet to play a MMORPG that is close to turn based....stopped reading at that point.

  • c0existc0exist Round Rock, TXPosts: 192Member
    Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but I think the phrase is taken too literally.  To me this is saying if you dont like leveling in a complex genre like an mmorpg you might as well go play a genre anyone can like an fps.  To me fps games are the bottom of the barrel and anyone can pick up a controller and play one.  I often say things like if you want pvp in an mmo go play call of duty or mortal kombat.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Eglin AFB, FLPosts: 651Member Uncommon

    Most FPSs now have a level grind of some sort.  Opens up new perks, weapons, attachments, etc..

     

    Leveling is simply an easy way to entice people to keep playing.  Gone are the days where online FPSs were played for months due simply and exclusively due to the merits of the gameplay..  The carrot has been placed on the stick.  Even games that stood on their own merit in the beginning have begun using carrots (ahem..  TF2 and your "play and randomly 'find' things system).

     

    Speaking of which, TF2 honestly disgusts me now.  Tried multiple times to get back into that game now with all dumb stuff added.  Not the same game anymore.  Breaks my heart Valve sold out there. /rant

     

    I don't mind levels in MMOs.  Unfortunately, I find that, in many cases, they are so freely given that leveling becomes a boring and minuscule task for which I cannot continue to faceroll the keyboard to "achieve".

     

    At least in some MMOs (such as TSW), the world keeps me so preoccupied that I don't notice the little bar go forward.  I'll save up half a dozen AP before I even realize I've gained any.  Those MMOs can keep me playing, at least longer than the ones that are "Your queue is ready!  Now just spam 1 until end!  Re-queue!"

     

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  • JoeyjojoshabaduJoeyjojoshabadu BuderimPosts: 161Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by loulaki
    Originally posted by ElRenmazuo
    ultima online one of the first graphical mmos didnt have levels

    also EVE (the OP mentions) doesn't have leveling ...

    But it does have skills, which operate the same way.  All of it is a means of measuring progression.

    Not the same way. Yes, similar in some respects, but significantly different in others. Eg in UO you could focus on a single skill if you so chose. You could be max in that skill but 0 in all others (and there are large variants to this, focusing on as many or few skills as you choose). In a levelled game you could still ostensibly do this, but as you level a variety of skills/traits, such as health, mana, etc will usually increase as well. In addition, in UO there were no fixed level-based barriers that are present in most levelling games. Sure, if you hadn't practiced your swordsmanship enough you couldn't kill that ettin, but there was no "if you aren't x level you can't go here, or do this quest, or join in this PvP battleground). In terms of functionality and play style, level vs non-level can represent a huge difference.

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,966Member Uncommon
    What it should read is if you don't like progression mechanics, you should not be playing MMORPGs.

    Progression is a defining characteristic of the traditional MMORPG. I'm not saying all online games need to have it, but in the traditional model it will always be there, right along with its cousin, the grind.

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
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  • YoungCaesarYoungCaesar San Diego, CAPosts: 297Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Soandsoso
    Originally posted by YoungCaesar

    Why not have both? Why cant an MMORPG (which mostly have shit almost turn based combat) have FPS combat in this age of better internet in a persistent world? Add to that a system like UO where you lvl your skills instead of your character (as long as the power gap is small between a noob and a fully maxed character) so it doesnt break the combat and you end up with a MMOFPS.

     

    Just imagine Chivalry online or Mount and Blade in a persistent world with crafting and pve mobs/resources, house & city building, now that would be a hell of a game.

    I have yet to play a MMORPG that is close to turn based....stopped reading at that point.

    you havent played WoW? One of the most popular MMORPGS? Im talking about that tab targetting "real time" combat where you sit in front of your enemy mashing buttons all day...

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,117Member Uncommon
    Measuring a character's progression is a mechanic shared by most games in some form or another.  While there are differences in approach, the paradigm remains the same.

    image
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