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MMO gamers don't know what they want in a game

13

Comments

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Kiljaedenas

    b) the chops to take a real risk and venture completely into the unknown

    is really what is needed. Those are very, very VERY rare.

    Why?

    There are plenty of good games that are not "venture completely into the unknown".

    Xcom Enemy Unknown, Dishonored, Deus Ex Human Evolution, ...... you don't need to be completely new to be entertaining. In fact, it is much more about the polish, implementation, and details than totally new ideas.

    Even games like Borderland is not totally new .. but a clever combination of old ideas.

  • Greymantle4Greymantle4 Posts: 803Member Uncommon

    I'm tired of finding a MMO I love and then  they change the game to be something else from what it was at the start. This happens to every MMO I have played and fell in love with. The only one that has stayed close to release that I played is Eve Online but it's to pvp focused for me.

     

    What I want you ask? I want a SWG with updated interface and graphics and support that sticks to the core game play. This would make me a happy camper.

  • GuyClinchGuyClinch Sunnyvale, CAPosts: 485Member

    I think they know what they want in a game - the problem is the imagination of the players exceeds the ability of the developers.

    1) They want 'something'  better then the holy trinity that still really encourages teamwork but doesn't pigeon hole people into roles.

    2) They want something that has endless content - but content that is as high quality as the scripted content in ESO and SWTOR - or higher.

    3) They want games that really reward solo play - and are tons of fun to play solo but at the same time they want to play a game where people are dying to play with them.

    4) They want a vast and beautiful world where every nook and cranny can be explored - and where its useful and fun to do so..

    5) They want old school dungeons where you could get lost forever that have the complexity and difficulty of the instanced dungeons and are magically balanced just to your actual groups skill level.

    I think we are very far away from being able to please the bitter vets. Right now we just get variations of the older games. We have 'super casual' - GW2. Its free. Its super casual. It's pretty. Alot of the content is easy. You finish it quick. We get "BC" WoW - aka Wildstar with more actiony combat. We get ESO with its SWTOR feel without the lame star wars stuff..

    All of these games are actually pretty good - but for whatever reason they lack the wow factor that games like EQ had. Mostly because EQ went from text MUD to graphics.. So it was a huge step up..

    The bitter vets are looking for something like Sword Art Online ..and they aren't finding it. But its not that developers don't want to do it. Its that they CANNOT do it. Look for similiar waves of disappoint with regards to EQ:Next.  And this cycle will continue until someone figures out how to make the servers 'smarter.' like a real dungeon master IRL.

     

     

  • BMBenderBMBender Nowhere, NCPosts: 568Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by GuyClinch
    I think they know what they want in a game - the problem is the imagination of the players exceeds the ability of the developers.1) They want 'something'  better then the holy trinity that still really encourages teamwork but doesn't pigeon hole people into roles.2) They want something that has endless content - but content that is as high quality as the scripted content in ESO and SWTOR - or higher.3) They want games that really reward solo play - and are tons of fun to play solo but at the same time they want to play a game where people are dying to play with them.4) They want a vast and beautiful world where every nook and cranny can be explored - and where its useful and fun to do so..5) They want old school dungeons where you could get lost forever that have the complexity and difficulty of the instanced dungeons and are magically balanced just to your actual groups skill level.I think we are very far away from being able to please the bitter vets. Right now we just get variations of the older games. We have 'super casual' - GW2. Its free. Its super casual. It's pretty. Alot of the content is easy. You finish it quick. We get "BC" WoW - aka Wildstar with more actiony combat. We get ESO with its SWTOR feel without the lame star wars stuff..All of these games are actually pretty good - but for whatever reason they lack the wow factor that games like EQ had. Mostly because EQ went from text MUD to graphics.. So it was a huge step up..The bitter vets are looking for something like Sword Art Online ..and they aren't finding it. But its not that developers don't want to do it. Its that they CANNOT do it. Look for similiar waves of disappoint with regards to EQ:Next.  And this cycle will continue until someone figures out how to make the servers 'smarter.' like a real dungeon master IRL.  
    That "the problem is the imagination of the players exceeds the ability of the developers.
    " only becomes a problem if you get greedy. If you design for and market towards ONLY what you can actually BUILD one may find greater success in actually satisfying a portion of the market. But if one wants to be a moron and try to cram groupers/soloers/raiders/worldpvprs/duelers/Rvr's/roleplayers/questwhores/content locust/and on and on and on; into the same game with all the supporting feature sets/systems into a single titel you spent less than an entire lifetime and 2-10billion building dont' be surprised when you come up short. Stupid never dies

    image
  • BeowulfsamBeowulfsam Velike LašcePosts: 128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    For years gamers whined about how boring MMOs have become, games left and right are WoW clones, they were screaming for changes and innovations, they looked at the horizon for the next big thing that will break the old classic WoW mold, something new, something fresh.

    Guild Wars 2 tried to make some changes with the none trinity aspect and none quest hubs, no good, people still whined about its not trinity, no quests i dont know what to do and i dont know where to go.

    Fine, ESO tried a different aproach, they made it alittle Elder Scrolls with the voiceovers and not so much on rails but still a back rail, still people whined about alot of things such as facing, people whine when they cant solo and they whine when they cant get as group going and they whine if its to hard even if they sead other MMOS are to easy..

    I do understand MMO developers today,  It's like catering a kindergaarden class, dosent matter what you do you will do it wrong.

    No matter how you make an MMO, with the amount of players out there, there will be people that don't like some aspect of it. Thus if you went to the forums and compiled all the complaints about pretty much every MMO, you could deduce that every MMO out there is garbage :)

    And by the nature of people (well, my own opinion), people who have a complaint are much faster to race to the forums and complain, than the people that enjoy the game. So ultimately it's down to how many people started the game and how many are still playing after 1-3-6-X months.

     

    Still, TESO and Wildstar, as the two latest, are with their share of problems. I can not in good conscience say either game is good. TESO mainly for the combat + some other PVE and PVP design choices.

    Wildstar is well...combat is decent, but the game as a whole is tedious as hell, even if I disregard bugs galore (some of which are in the game since alfa/CBT), there is also the fact that they spend their time changing stuff that makes for slower player progress and still not touch gamebreaking bugs in the same instances that actually make you unable to finish the instance and the fact that the PvP is in a sorry ass state (again, they were told in CBT if not alfa what would happen if they release PvP as is, and our guildleader actually got told off  in alfa testing by the dev to GTFO if he has nothing constructive to add when he was trying to get his point across that PvP won't work well as is, that was precious. And a lesson I guess: devs like to listen to fanboys that kiss their asses, skills and gaming insight are not important). 

     

    Dunno, I personally have become less tolerant how companies make games (any games). So many are not fit to be even in open beta, let alone released, yet they still release, taking money, making promises, doing jackshit or doing the wrong (ok, this is subjective) things. I'm hard pressed to find any other industry in which customers can get half finished products (which they don't even own in case of MMOs I might add) and the companies get away with it. And it pisses me off a bit :)

  • CaldrinCaldrin CwmbranPosts: 4,533Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    For years gamers whined about how boring MMOs have become, games left and right are WoW clones, they were screaming for changes and innovations, they looked at the horizon for the next big thing that will break the old classic WoW mold, something new, something fresh.

    Guild Wars 2 tried to make some changes with the none trinity aspect and none quest hubs, no good, people still whined about its not trinity, no quests i dont know what to do and i dont know where to go.

    Fine, ESO tried a different aproach, they made it alittle Elder Scrolls with the voiceovers and not so much on rails but still a back rail, still people whined about alot of things such as facing, people whine when they cant solo and they whine when they cant get as group going and they whine if its to hard even if they sead other MMOS are to easy..

    I do understand MMO developers today,  It's like catering a kindergaarden class, dosent matter what you do you will do it wrong.

    Well the two games you mentioned basically tweaked a few features of the standard themepark mmorpg and at the end of the day are basically just like any other themepark mmos...

     

    The thing is people will always wine about something as we all like different things and want different things from our games..

  • MyownGodMyownGod SydneyPosts: 205Member
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    We all know how our dream MMO should be, but we are gamers we cant get that dream unless you win the euro jackpot.

    LOL this about right. Im only partially agree about MMO gamers doesn't know what they want, since you only stated "MMO gamers" I assume you are talking about everyone that plays MMO, and that is untrue, like you just stated above, "We all know how our dream MMO should be" <-- is pretty much we know what we want, but no one have yet approached it. I definitely know what I want, a game that is exactly like After CU SWG. Definitely more freedom, more sandboxy element, no limitation to pvp (open pvp) BUT with penalties to PK, so far only a few game have this "jail system". I like to see more of this system implemented in an open pvp sandbox mmorpg.

     

  • Alcop0psAlcop0ps MersysidePosts: 18Member
    Originally posted by sunandshadow
    Ugh, strongly disagree.  MMO players are not a unified group; different MMO players are asking for completely different things.  Some of them are more self-aware than others and more accurate about asking for things they would actually enjoy.  Some are very easy-going and don't ask for anything.

    I totally agree with this.

    You really can't put ALL MMO players in one group. I personally don't think we "don't know what we want", we just all have way too many ideas and opinions on those ideas to implement them; hence why the devs do what they think or they do what works for most MMOs. They stick to the safe route even if it's not everyones cup of tea. That's just my opinion, though.

    image

  • MyownGodMyownGod SydneyPosts: 205Member
    Originally posted by Beowulfsam
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    For years gamers whined about how boring MMOs have become, games left and right are WoW clones, they were screaming for changes and innovations, they looked at the horizon for the next big thing that will break the old classic WoW mold, something new, something fresh.

    Guild Wars 2 tried to make some changes with the none trinity aspect and none quest hubs, no good, people still whined about its not trinity, no quests i dont know what to do and i dont know where to go.

    Fine, ESO tried a different aproach, they made it alittle Elder Scrolls with the voiceovers and not so much on rails but still a back rail, still people whined about alot of things such as facing, people whine when they cant solo and they whine when they cant get as group going and they whine if its to hard even if they sead other MMOS are to easy..

    I do understand MMO developers today,  It's like catering a kindergaarden class, dosent matter what you do you will do it wrong.

    No matter how you make an MMO, with the amount of players out there, there will be people that don't like some aspect of it. Thus if you went to the forums and compiled all the complaints about pretty much every MMO, you could deduce that every MMO out there is garbage :)

    And by the nature of people (well, my own opinion), people who have a complaint are much faster to race to the forums and complain, than the people that enjoy the game. So ultimately it's down to how many people started the game and how many are still playing after 1-3-6-X months.

     

    Still, TESO and Wildstar, as the two latest, are with their share of problems. I can not in good conscience say either game is good. TESO mainly for the combat + some other PVE and PVP design choices.

    Wildstar is well...combat is decent, but the game as a whole is tedious as hell, even if I disregard bugs galore (some of which are in the game since alfa/CBT), there is also the fact that they spend their time changing stuff that makes for slower player progress and still not touch gamebreaking bugs in the same instances that actually make you unable to finish the instance and the fact that the PvP is in a sorry ass state (again, they were told in CBT if not alfa what would happen if they release PvP as is, and our guildleader actually got told off  in alfa testing by the dev to GTFO if he has nothing constructive to add when he was trying to get his point across that PvP won't work well as is, that was precious. And a lesson I guess: devs like to listen to fanboys that kiss their asses, skills and gaming insight are not important). 

     

    Dunno, I personally have become less tolerant how companies make games (any games). So many are not fit to be even in open beta, let alone released, yet they still release, taking money, making promises, doing jackshit or doing the wrong (ok, this is subjective) things. I'm hard pressed to find any other industry in which customers can get half finished products (which they don't even own in case of MMOs I might add) and the companies get away with it. And it pisses me off a bit :)

    So far from what I learnt is that game publisher and developers are like politicians, they promise many things and does not meet those 90% of the promises (maybe less).

  • Viper482Viper482 Somewhere, FLPosts: 996Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    For years gamers whined about how boring MMOs have become, games left and right are WoW clones, they were screaming for changes and innovations, they looked at the horizon for the next big thing that will break the old classic WoW mold, something new, something fresh.

    Guild Wars 2 tried to make some changes with the none trinity aspect and none quest hubs, no good, people still whined about its not trinity, no quests i dont know what to do and i dont know where to go.

    Fine, ESO tried a different aproach, they made it alittle Elder Scrolls with the voiceovers and not so much on rails but still a back rail, still people whined about alot of things such as facing, people whine when they cant solo and they whine when they cant get as group going and they whine if its to hard even if they sead other MMOS are to easy..

    I do understand MMO developers today,  It's like catering a kindergaarden class, dosent matter what you do you will do it wrong.

    The only people I have heard complain about WoW clones are the old school MMORPG'ers like myself that were tired of the theme park crap that, we felt the genre was hijacked. GW2 and the like have done in an entire OPPOSITE direction than where we want to see the genre go, so no we were not happy.

    I think those not happy with the state of the genre know exactly what we want in our MMO....we certainly know what we do NOT want.

  • kresa3333kresa3333 petah tikvaPosts: 64Member
    Totaly disgree...after so many years people want something fresh....and there is a reason why many ppl / kids w/e  whine on the new games... the games that try to give somehting fresh and new still didnt nail it  so it aint comming out that good  but its the right direction and sooner or later some company will bring u a new winning formula and make the big bucks
  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon

    I blame Sons of Liberty for all this mess :)

  • loulakiloulaki PatrasPosts: 918Member
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    For years gamers whined about how boring MMOs have become, games left and right are WoW clones, they were screaming for changes and innovations, they looked at the horizon for the next big thing that will break the old classic WoW mold, something new, something fresh.

    Guild Wars 2 tried to make some changes with the none trinity aspect and none quest hubs, no good, people still whined about its not trinity, no quests i dont know what to do and i dont know where to go.

    Fine, ESO tried a different aproach, they made it alittle Elder Scrolls with the voiceovers and not so much on rails but still a back rail, still people whined about alot of things such as facing, people whine when they cant solo and they whine when they cant get as group going and they whine if its to hard even if they sead other MMOS are to easy..

    I do understand MMO developers today,  It's like catering a kindergaarden class, dosent matter what you do you will do it wrong.

    well for ESO the problem was the terrible execution ...

    GW2 is doing fine ... also lately their season2 is based on players feedback and is going quite positive so far ...

    i believe this OP is based on this forum, otherwise i wouldn't say it's quite true as a statement .

    image

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 18,028Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torgrim

    For years gamers whined about how boring MMOs have become, games left and right are WoW clones, they were screaming for changes and innovations, they looked at the horizon for the next big thing that will break the old classic WoW mold, something new, something fresh.

    Guild Wars 2 tried to make some changes with the none trinity aspect and none quest hubs, no good, people still whined about its not trinity, no quests i dont know what to do and i dont know where to go.

    Fine, ESO tried a different aproach, they made it alittle Elder Scrolls with the voiceovers and not so much on rails but still a back rail, still people whined about alot of things such as facing, people whine when they cant solo and they whine when they cant get as group going and they whine if its to hard even if they sead other MMOS are to easy..

    I do understand MMO developers today,  It's like catering a kindergaarden class, dosent matter what you do you will do it wrong.

    Some people will always whine. I personally liked GW2 but didn't like ESO that much...

    And yes, MMOers might not always know what they want (besides "fun") but most of us finds out very soon when we try something and discover it is fun. Many features sounds really good on paper but either doesn't really work at all or are too poorly implemented. 

    Still, bad copies of Wow wont work anymore, if we really want something like Wow we play Wow. If you want to make the next big thing you need to think outside the box instead of trying to "outWow" wow. Unless you are Blizzard and want to make Wow2.

    The thing with innovation is that it ain't enough to try new things, you need to try good new things.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Viper482
     

    The only people I have heard complain about WoW clones are the old school MMORPG'ers like myself that were tired of the theme park crap that, we felt the genre was hijacked. GW2 and the like have done in an entire OPPOSITE direction than where we want to see the genre go, so no we were not happy.

    I think those not happy with the state of the genre know exactly what we want in our MMO....we certainly know what we do NOT want.

    "hijacked"? By whom? It is more like the devs found the audience of the old school MMORPGs too small, and decided to branch out, and now cater to the larger audience.

    And you are right .. i know what I do not want .. old school MMORPGs, and I am glad I have choices, and don't have to suffer them anymore.

     

  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Viper482

    The only people I have heard complain about WoW clones are the old school MMORPG'ers like myself that were tired of the theme park crap that, we felt the genre was hijacked. GW2 and the like have done in an entire OPPOSITE direction than where we want to see the genre go, so no we were not happy.

    I think those not happy with the state of the genre know exactly what we want in our MMO....we certainly know what we do NOT want.

    "hijacked"? By whom? It is more like the devs found the audience of the old school MMORPGs too small, and decided to branch out, and now cater to the larger audience.

    And you are right .. i know what I do not want .. old school MMORPGs, and I am glad I have choices, and don't have to suffer them anymore.

    Well, that' s funny.

    You go on and on all the time about how you'd leave the genre in a jiffy and find "other entertainment" if there wasn't anything you found fun; which makes sense. But then you go and make a statement like that? 

    You're not suffering if you're having fun, so, yeah. Why in the world did you play EQ for a bloody year? Ha ha ha! You had fun playing that one didn't ya? Be honest with yourself :)

    A little consistency I believe is in order here.

     

     

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by galphar
    Originally posted by DMKano

    MMO gamers know what they want *individually* - the issue is AAA MMO games often try to be all things to all players - thus disappointing everyone.

    Having a smaller more focused game is a better solution - sure you may only attract 100k players but if you keep your Dev costs way down, it could still be profitable.

     

    This is the perfect response. IF MMO developers would quit trying to make a MMO for EVERYONE and focus on a game for just part of the player base then they'd have much more success and last a hell of o lot longer. Making a game for everyone just means you'll disappoint everyone.

    I don't see the point in making a AAA MMORPG in such a way, an online game with a smaller focus sure, if you're just creating a strictly niche game there's no reason to add systems to support the possibility of millions playing. Such would be a waste.

    Something akin to a NWN player world would make a lot more sense as they typically had a focus on a specific subset of players, over many varied types of players. Something like SWG would be overkill, if you're just going for a small specific audience.

    Camelot Unchanied's Devs have the right idea on how to do such a game IMO. Cut out the parts you don't need to please the audience you're seeking.

     

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,946Member Uncommon
    smaller focus and 'niche' mean the same thing in effect. Ofc generalising and aiming for every player type results in a poorer result (aim for lowest common denominator, drive out uniqueness for 'balance' etc)

    Specialisation is the answer, you specialise and design a game with a target sub level of 500k to a million and don't get greedy. Now you have an audiancexwith clear non conflicting desires - that gives a lot of freedom to the developer to innovate.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    smaller focus and 'niche' mean the same thing in effect. Ofc generalising and aiming for every player type results in a poorer result (aim for lowest common denominator, drive out uniqueness for 'balance' etc)

    Specialisation is the answer, you specialise and design a game with a target sub level of 500k to a million and don't get greedy. Now you have an audiancexwith clear non conflicting desires - that gives a lot of freedom to the developer to innovate.

    Just a tip : If you're not going to quote at least put an @(insert name) so people know what post you're referring to and who you're attempting to correct ( your first sentence as an example seems to be offering a correction, toward who I have no idea).

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • FoobarxFoobarx Poway, CAPosts: 451Member
    Originally posted by Torgrim
    We all know how our dream MMO should be, but we are gamers we cant get that dream unless you win the euro jackpot.

    LOL, now there's an advertisement for the lottery...

     

    Win a million bucks and you can have an MMO made for you!

     

    Sadly, additional players not included.

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,557Member Uncommon

    I want a living world with risk vs reward and consequences for your actions.  Things should take some time.  With an emphasis on freedom...quests need to be completely optional and not linear.  Darkfall UW has much of what I want but not an ideal difficult PvE and character building aspect.  I still really enjoy playing it a year later (even though I don't love PvP all the time).

     

    The Repopulation looks to have almost all of the things I'm looking for.  We will see if it can deliver.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    smaller focus and 'niche' mean the same thing in effect. Ofc generalising and aiming for every player type results in a poorer result (aim for lowest common denominator, drive out uniqueness for 'balance' etc)Specialisation is the answer, you specialise and design a game with a target sub level of 500k to a million and don't get greedy. Now you have an audiancexwith clear non conflicting desires - that gives a lot of freedom to the developer to innovate.
    500k to a mil subs is a shitload.
  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

     


    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    smaller focus and 'niche' mean the same thing in effect. Ofc generalising and aiming for every player type results in a poorer result (aim for lowest common denominator, drive out uniqueness for 'balance' etc)Specialisation is the answer, you specialise and design a game with a target sub level of 500k to a million and don't get greedy. Now you have an audiancexwith clear non conflicting desires - that gives a lot of freedom to the developer to innovate.

    500k to a mil subs is a shitload.

     

    Agreed

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    I'm not sure of the inner workings involving the creation of the MMO, but the fault is not the players, but the creators.  What I mean is players just want to play, but there are many types of gamers.  The problems begin when the game creator's try to accommodate the game to too many different types of gamers.  You can't please everybody therefore nobody feels satisfied.  However, the cost to make an MMO is so expensive these days and the game creators get external pressures from investors/game publishers its understandable why they would want a larger target audience.  I personally feel that it is the responsibility of the game creator to identify the type of gamer they want, keep costs down and make the core target audience happy.  If that happens I'm sure the game will have long term success.
  • EcocesEcoces Chicago, ILPosts: 879Member Uncommon

    actually we do but heres the thing and i know its going to sound crazy but

     

    many people want many different things out of games. so while it may sound like MMO gamers don't know what they want. its actually many MMO gamers who have many different opinions.

     

    shocker i know.

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