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Ok I have a question. What is the best endgame MMO out there? Is it Wow?

BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,618Member Uncommon

Just curious because longevity seems to be a big deal with many posters here.

And what should endgame content be?

I need educating because when I max a character I generally find that is end game for me.   What more should I be looking for?

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

Comments

  • NellusNellus Groton, CTPosts: 247Member

    Generally "end game" is raid content, although not everyone cares about raiding. I still believe EverQuest was the best when it comes to that, but is obviously dated now. Kunark was good, Velious was amazing, and I enjoyed POP flagging. Can't say much after those, aside from Discord was a disaster.

    For me, raiding is pointless now. Most raiding guilds want you to talk to them in vent, something I reaaaally don't want to do - I have a hard enough time putting up with some people on-screen, I don't need to add voices to annoy me further.

    My end-game at this point in life is different. Content requiring a couple groups is large enough for me, and I find myself gravitating to 3-4 person encounters that are designed for full groups. I find challenges in different ways, rather than raids.

    As for what raiding SHOULD be? I'm not sure the content itself is the most important part. Just make it a little challenging, and try to develop encounters where skill matters over numbers. Raiding is mostly about the guild you're in, though. Some of my fondest raid moments were with good people who may not have been the best players. Wiping a few times, even if you don't win that go-around, can be more fun than crushing a raid boss with a group of skilled players who are more prone to prickish behavior.

    Edit to add: I think longevity is a problem because there are too many options. When the genre was in its infancy most players either loved the game they were playing, or had already tried the few other options and decided their game was the best fit - even if they didn't love it. Options are good, but they can also water things down.

    - Nellus

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,901Member Uncommon
    IF you never experienced it what games like SWG had is hard to put into words, every day was a new experience at "end-game".

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,618Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Slackker

    Generally "end game" is raid content, although not everyone cares about raiding. I still believe EverQuest was the best when it comes to that, but is obviously dated now. Kunark was good, Velious was amazing, and I enjoyed POP flagging. Can't say much after those, aside from Discord was a disaster.

    For me, raiding is pointless now. Most raiding guilds want you to talk to them in vent, something I reaaaally don't want to do - I have a hard enough time putting up with some people on-screen, I don't need to add voices to annoy me further.

    My end-game at this point in life is different. Content requiring a couple groups is large enough for me, and I find myself gravitating to 3-4 person encounters that are designed for full groups. I find challenges in different ways, rather than raids.

    As for what raiding SHOULD be? I'm not sure the content itself is the most important part. Just make it a little challenging, and try to develop encounters where skill matters over numbers. Raiding is mostly about the guild you're in, though. Some of my fondest raid moments were with good people who may not have been the best players. Wiping a few times, even if you don't win that go-around, can be more fun than crushing a raid boss with a group of skilled players who are more prone to prickish behavior.

    Edit to add: I think longevity is a problem because there are too many options. When the genre was in its infancy most players either loved the game they were playing, or had already tried the few other options and decided their game was the best fit - even if they didn't love it. Options are good, but they can also water things down.

    Nice post. 

    I agree, the few times I tried raiding some was fun, some was not , but generally it was a very time consuming process.   And most of that time was not made up for in fun.    I also agree that I am not into the whole  vent communication thing.   Nothing against those that use it, but that is sort of an immersion breaker in a way for me too.

    When I play an MMO it is mostly about experiencing new things.   I really have no desire to continuously run the same dungeon just to get a slightly better piece of gear.

    Is this all there is to endgame in an MMO?

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,618Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Distopia
    IF you never experienced it what games like SWG had is hard to put into words, every day was a new experience at "end-game".

    I never did experience it unfortunately, ( I was playing E and B and when it ended, heard all the bad stuff about SWG) but I think I know what you are saying.   Fallen Earth was a bit like that for me,  I would have loved to have tried SWG in hindsight.

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,901Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Boneserino
     

    Nice post. 

    I agree, the few times I tried raiding some was fun, some was not , but generally it was a very time consuming process.   And most of that time was not made up for in fun.    I also agree that I am not into the whole  vent communication thing.   Nothing against those that use it, but that is sort of an immersion breaker in a way for me too.

    When I play an MMO it is mostly about experiencing new things.   I really have no desire to continuously run the same dungeon just to get a slightly better piece of gear.

    Is this all there is to endgame in an MMO?

    No there is far more to endgame, given the right mechanics and community. AGain what I was eluding to above. Those things didn't even really exist in SWG in the form they do in games like WOW.

      What we did was create our own end-game, it was something new every day as I said. The community always had something going on, large scale PVP battles with scenarios- like hostage negotiations, rescue missions, all out wars, space and ground battles running at the same time with player created stories behind them. It was a blast.

    That's just what PVPers did mind you, there was far more to get involved with, with other types of players.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • naaminaami Dallas, TXPosts: 163Member Common

    I think basically there are two types endgame in modern MMOs. One focused on cooperative player vs environment scenarios and one focused on player vs player scenarios. In pve once you beat the challenges with your team then that's it you beat the game and it gets boring to fight the same bosses over and over. This is what people usually mean by endgame and if there is no new content they will leave. In pvp it is more about the competition and rivalry and you can have a variety of situations happen every time keeping it fun longer without necessarily having new content. 

    The best design for an MMO imo is a marriage of these two concepts except that the focus should be taken off of getting max level and instead focus on player competition and cooperation at all levels. Leveling should be a means to an end, not the end.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,901Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Boneserino
    Originally posted by Distopia
    IF you never experienced it what games like SWG had is hard to put into words, every day was a new experience at "end-game".

    I never did experience it unfortunately, ( I was playing E and B and when it ended, heard all the bad stuff about SWG) but I think I know what you are saying.   Fallen Earth was a bit like that for me,  I would have loved to have tried SWG in hindsight.

    Yeah I could have seen that for fallen earth for sure, I just wish it had a larger influx of community based players. It really would have been a perfect game for it.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • TankYou88TankYou88 , ALPosts: 310Member

    WoW seems to be one of the best MMOs with endgame content out there. I have played most of the themepark MMOS out there and none are anywhere near what WoW is when it comes to end content.

    Most are super easy and comes with very little content. WoW doesnt make that mistake. After a year of the same content there is still only about 1-2% that has completed the endgame in WoW. The mechanics are always new and interesting. Of course some stuff is reused, classic tank and spank but it changes it enough to not feel repetitive. Until we get another power house in power I doubt anyone will be surpassing WoWs quality of content. 

  • BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,618Member Uncommon

    I agree with you Distopia.   When I played FE we had a small but very fun guild and that is what made the entire game fun.  

     

    I think what newer MMO's meed is something that gives other players the feeling that they need each other, and not necessarily just to complete dungeons. 

     

    Building to strive for.  Special gear that requires  the help of different professions or gatherers.  That sort of thing.   And of course ongoing content that pushes you to further enhance your character.

     But of course that still can't last forever.  Is there anything gameplay wise that could hold your attention for years despite having maxed out all else out in the game?  

    I definitely feel this would have to be group content, because it is a truth that MMO's are best when people who have never met come together and become friends in a game, simply through gameplay itself.

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • SaluteSalute AthensPosts: 763Member Uncommon
    Imho when it comes to End Game WS rules. Both in quality and quantity in End Game content. Plus they keep (until now ofc) their promise about monthly content updates :)

    All Time Favorites: EQ1, WoW, EvE, GW1
    Playing Now: WS, ESO, GW2

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,901Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    I agree with you Distopia.   When I played FE we had a small but very fun guild and that is what made the entire game fun.  

     

    I think what newer MMO's meed is something that gives other players the feeling that they need each other, and not necessarily just to complete dungeons. 

     

    Building to strive for.  Special gear that requires  the help of different professions or gatherers.  That sort of thing.   And of course ongoing content that pushes you to further enhance your character.

     But of course that still can't last forever.  Is there anything gameplay wise that could hold your attention for years despite having maxed out all else out in the game?  

    I definitely feel this would have to be group content, because it is a truth that MMO's are best when people who have never met come together and become friends in a game, simply through gameplay itself.

    I agree on multiple levels here. The biggest being needing some good mechanics to bring people together, what SWG had was Star Wars and RP mechanics, it was a perfect SW RP platform at the time.

    WIthout some major IP hold like that though, mechanics become far more important, a big driving factor behind SWG was it's ability to allow a community to play out their SW dreams. That's a major hook if you really think about it, for those looking for that.

    I've never been one for forced mechanics though, I think it's better to bring the community together in a more positive manner, like their love for Star Wars in the example above. People become more than a simple means to an end. That's the tricky part in it all.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson USAPosts: 833Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Boneserino
     

    Nice post. 

    I agree, the few times I tried raiding some was fun, some was not , but generally it was a very time consuming process.   And most of that time was not made up for in fun.    I also agree that I am not into the whole  vent communication thing.   Nothing against those that use it, but that is sort of an immersion breaker in a way for me too.

    When I play an MMO it is mostly about experiencing new things.   I really have no desire to continuously run the same dungeon just to get a slightly better piece of gear.

    Is this all there is to endgame in an MMO?

    No there is far more to endgame, given the right mechanics and community. AGain what I was eluding to above. Those things didn't even really exist in SWG in the form they do in games like WOW.

      What we did was create our own end-game, it was something new every day as I said. The community always had something going on, large scale PVP battles with scenarios- like hostage negotiations, rescue missions, all out wars, space and ground battles running at the same time with player created stories behind them. It was a blast.

    That's just what PVPers did mind you, there was far more to get involved with, with other types of players.

    As fun as that sounds.  I'm afraid with the current generation of kids coming into our mmos.  I doubt this type of world would work anymore.  I wish it would, but I doubt it.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,901Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MrMelGibson
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Boneserino
     

    Nice post. 

    I agree, the few times I tried raiding some was fun, some was not , but generally it was a very time consuming process.   And most of that time was not made up for in fun.    I also agree that I am not into the whole  vent communication thing.   Nothing against those that use it, but that is sort of an immersion breaker in a way for me too.

    When I play an MMO it is mostly about experiencing new things.   I really have no desire to continuously run the same dungeon just to get a slightly better piece of gear.

    Is this all there is to endgame in an MMO?

    No there is far more to endgame, given the right mechanics and community. AGain what I was eluding to above. Those things didn't even really exist in SWG in the form they do in games like WOW.

      What we did was create our own end-game, it was something new every day as I said. The community always had something going on, large scale PVP battles with scenarios- like hostage negotiations, rescue missions, all out wars, space and ground battles running at the same time with player created stories behind them. It was a blast.

    That's just what PVPers did mind you, there was far more to get involved with, with other types of players.

    As fun as that sounds.  I'm afraid with the current generation of kids coming into our mmos.  I doubt this type of world would work anymore.  I wish it would, but I doubt it.

    Sadly I do agree.. It remains to be seen in any current title anyway, I don't think that's solely about mechanics, I think a lot of it is the competitive nature of today's gamer more than anything. Hard to make friends when you view that player as the opponent you must beat.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson USAPosts: 833Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by MrMelGibson
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Boneserino
     

    Nice post. 

    I agree, the few times I tried raiding some was fun, some was not , but generally it was a very time consuming process.   And most of that time was not made up for in fun.    I also agree that I am not into the whole  vent communication thing.   Nothing against those that use it, but that is sort of an immersion breaker in a way for me too.

    When I play an MMO it is mostly about experiencing new things.   I really have no desire to continuously run the same dungeon just to get a slightly better piece of gear.

    Is this all there is to endgame in an MMO?

    No there is far more to endgame, given the right mechanics and community. AGain what I was eluding to above. Those things didn't even really exist in SWG in the form they do in games like WOW.

      What we did was create our own end-game, it was something new every day as I said. The community always had something going on, large scale PVP battles with scenarios- like hostage negotiations, rescue missions, all out wars, space and ground battles running at the same time with player created stories behind them. It was a blast.

    That's just what PVPers did mind you, there was far more to get involved with, with other types of players.

    As fun as that sounds.  I'm afraid with the current generation of kids coming into our mmos.  I doubt this type of world would work anymore.  I wish it would, but I doubt it.

    Sadly I do agree.. It remains to be seen in any current title anyway, I don't think that's solely about mechanics, I think a lot of it is the competitive nature of today's gamer more than anything. Hard to make friends when you view that player as the opponent you must beat.

    Well said.  Now a days, I prefer not to be on peoples vent for runs and etc. 

  • UtinniUtinni Richmond, VAPosts: 380Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Slackker

    Generally "end game" is raid content, although not everyone cares about raiding. I still believe EverQuest was the best when it comes to that, but is obviously dated now. Kunark was good, Velious was amazing, and I enjoyed POP flagging. Can't say much after those, aside from Discord was a disaster.

    As someone who raide when it was current and currently still raids early EQ content, I must say later content was much better to raid. From vanilla-velious you basically did the same thing over and over, a boss with an aoe. Years of just tank n spank. This didn't really get changed until Discord which was a great expansion lore and content wise, even then to be outdone by Omens right after it. EQ is still a great raiding game to this day.

     

    Best endgame? Yea its WoW. Mythic will only make this better.

  • LanfeaLanfea EssenPosts: 219Member Uncommon

    the common understanding is that endgame content is raiding. but more and more people, especially the working and family involved casual gamer, end a game when the gear progression treatmill hits them. doing the daily quests over and over again or following the rehearsed choreography in a boss fight seams to be too time consuming, not entertaining enough or simple boring repetitive. thats why f.e. everquest next or archeage throw the term 'sandbox' into their pr-propaganda, but aren't consistent enough to follow all the path and are using only partial elements. 'sandbox' mechanics, like others mentioned here before, give players the tools to create their own 'endgame' content.

     

    the best endgame content in a themepark? well, i put rift and everquest 2 before world of warcraft. and even quild wars 2 can be a nice place to spend time even after you hit max-level. when it comes to sandbox games ... hm .... most of them are outdated with horrible graphics (like istaria: chronicles of the gifted), not everyones taste (like eve online or xyson), or dead (like star wars galaxies). is there some light at the end of the tunnel? everquest next and archeage are promising, but a good portion of scepticism before diving into the could be advisable. the same goes for the repopulation.

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