Xenoblade is a single player rpg that would have made a wonderful MMO. If you want to play a single player good MMO, play it.
Still ridiculous...
Playing an MMO has NEVER meant grouping. This is proven. But still we see this garbage.Solo play has NEVER hurt an MMO. Except in the eyes of fragile little snowflakes that think we all have to be in groups.
Playing an MMO might not mean grouping but playing a good MMO means grouping.
Solo play in an MMO is just ridiculous........get a bunch of people in a single world to play alone. Ridiculous. And Absurd.
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Magiknight
Originally posted by STYNKFYST
Originally posted by Magiknight
Along the lines of what OP said......
Xenoblade is a single player rpg that would have made a wonderful MMO. If you want to play a single player good MMO, play it.
Still ridiculous...
Playing an MMO has NEVER meant grouping. This is proven. But still we see this garbage.Solo play has NEVER hurt an MMO. Except in the eyes of fragile little snowflakes that think we all have to be in groups.
Playing an MMO might not mean grouping but playing a good MMO means grouping.
Solo play in an MMO is just ridiculous........get a bunch of people in a single world to play alone. Ridiculous. And Absurd.
Grouping and interacting/socializing are two different things.
You both show the boredom
Never meant to be this way.
???
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Xenoblade is a single player rpg that would have made a wonderful MMO. If you want to play a single player good MMO, play it.
Still ridiculous...
Playing an MMO has NEVER meant grouping. This is proven. But still we see this garbage.Solo play has NEVER hurt an MMO. Except in the eyes of fragile little snowflakes that think we all have to be in groups.
Playing an MMO might not mean grouping but playing a good MMO means grouping.
Solo play in an MMO is just ridiculous........get a bunch of people in a single world to play alone. Ridiculous. And Absurd.
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Magiknight
Originally posted by STYNKFYST
Originally posted by Magiknight
Along the lines of what OP said......
Xenoblade is a single player rpg that would have made a wonderful MMO. If you want to play a single player good MMO, play it.
Still ridiculous...
Playing an MMO has NEVER meant grouping. This is proven. But still we see this garbage.Solo play has NEVER hurt an MMO. Except in the eyes of fragile little snowflakes that think we all have to be in groups.
Playing an MMO might not mean grouping but playing a good MMO means grouping.
Solo play in an MMO is just ridiculous........get a bunch of people in a single world to play alone. Ridiculous. And Absurd.
Grouping and interacting/socializing are two different things.
You both show the boredom
Never meant to be this way.
We get it, you want to play with yourself, and probably are... Only you can't be satisfied without a world full of other people to do it around.
Double Entendre FTW!
Look! A person that makes fun of me. How odd.
Look moron...the world doesn't revolve around you. So MMOs should feel the same....douche
More and more it will be personal personal personal plus instant uberness new mmo's.
The reason why i play solo games. MMO's not worth my time anymore.
I can't stand other players anymore mainly because of cheating and there attitude of want everything easy way and and fast today's generation don't take time anymore or wanne invest time.
Asheron's call old days or even Darkfall 1 first half year are MMO'S i wanne play(without cheaters offcorse)
Only multiplayer i play sometimes is DayZ SA
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
Xenoblade is a single player rpg that would have made a wonderful MMO. If you want to play a single player good MMO, play it.
Still ridiculous...
Playing an MMO has NEVER meant grouping. This is proven. But still we see this garbage.Solo play has NEVER hurt an MMO. Except in the eyes of fragile little snowflakes that think we all have to be in groups.
Playing an MMO might not mean grouping but playing a good MMO means grouping.
Solo play in an MMO is just ridiculous........get a bunch of people in a single world to play alone. Ridiculous. And Absurd.
Grouping and interacting/socializing are two different things.
Today's people just think grouping somehow means socializing maybe?
I alway's played solo allot but also had plenty of interaction with other players. I am that crafter, I like to explore go out for resources can do that a whole playsession if I want to. I still interact I might hit a group, I might trade, I might just have a conversation about the game, it's world, it's lore or a adventure I have been on. I might want to help another person. I might get a custom order to craft something for some other player. Still most time still solo.
I want other people in my MMORPG but to me a good MMORPG offers players a natural way of grouping when people want to group. Forced grouping is something that for me belongs in normal multiplayer games.
Still thinking it might take another 5 to 8 years before we truly see something revolutionairy in this genre. For now we have to do with slight chances, some minor innovations, some things like phasing to mature more to become that what developeres really want to do with phasing.
did you just say remove players from a MULTIPLAYER genre.
Originally posted by Blaze_Rocker
Yeah, they said that. My first thought was "ARE YOU F-ING HIGH!?!"
Originally posted by cerulean2012 OP, I really want to know how removing players from an MMO helps MMOs?
Originally posted by Magiknight
Is this a joke??????
Google "sarcasm".
How I see evolution of mmo's? Well, like you said, remove all other players from it, to stop all the complaining about racist chat, and breaking immersion. Make only a scoreboard, so you are still able to compare yourself to someone.
Wear oculus rift for amazing 3D experience. And if we are speaking of oculus, add facebook connection, so you can share with friends what you just did, since you can't see them in game anymore.
And achievements... lots of them, the more pointless they are the better, just more numbers to do for nothing. Just so your friends can see you killed 10.000 centaurs, and admire your lack of better things to do.
And full sandbox. Just a sand of voxels, a huge desert of voxel with nothing in it, you login and build the game yourself, developers won't have to do sh*t. All the saved money, and the crowd is happy. A pile of voxels, and you can do anything you want. No story, so people won't complain that it is short.
No levels because people have work and family and can't keep up with others. Just skill points based on actions you are doing, so you can tape your mouse button hitting a crab like old SNES times, while you eat your breakfast and comeback to a stronger character. Wait, correct that, your character can now auto level skills since it would be a pain to do it yourself, and people want to be happy when playing, not WORK!
Did I miss anything? More customization! Because it matters for me if the nose bridge is 1/20 inch longer, since an alien with 10k x 10k resolution screen would notice that in battle.
There, perfect mmorpg.com community game. You're welcome.
I think the next big trend can be said in one word
voxel
Voxels are a clumsy hack. As soon as the gaming industry figures it that it should hire a handful of mathematicians to do amazing things with tessellation, voxels will be dead in a hurry.
I think the next big trend will be incorporating consoles and tablets more into the mmorpg scene. Many devices all different capabilities and we know you don't have to be stellar graphically to be a big seller. Look at league and dota. Even Wow would need little to no change to be playable on tablets and console.
I think the next big trend can be said in one word
voxel
Voxels are a clumsy hack. As soon as the gaming industry figures it that it should hire a handful of mathematicians to do amazing things with tessellation, voxels will be dead in a hurry.
Everquest Next is doomed?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by SEANMCADI think the next big trend can be said in one wordvoxel
Voxels are a clumsy hack. As soon as the gaming industry figures it that it should hire a handful of mathematicians to do amazing things with tessellation, voxels will be dead in a hurry.
Everquest Next is doomed?
I think EQ Next will be fine. I just don't think voxels are the future. Remember silicon graphics?
Originally posted by SEANMCADI think the next big trend can be said in one wordvoxel
Voxels are a clumsy hack. As soon as the gaming industry figures it that it should hire a handful of mathematicians to do amazing things with tessellation, voxels will be dead in a hurry.
Everquest Next is doomed?
I think EQ Next will be fine. I just don't think voxels are the future. Remember silicon graphics?
from my understanding voxel programing died because the computers of the day could not handle it. Now things appear to be changing.
EQ Next
Minecraft
Space Engineers
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by SEANMCAD Originally posted by FoomerangOriginally posted by SEANMCADOriginally posted by QuizzicalOriginally posted by SEANMCADI think the next big trend can be said in one wordvoxel
Voxels are a clumsy hack. As soon as the gaming industry figures it that it should hire a handful of mathematicians to do amazing things with tessellation, voxels will be dead in a hurry.Everquest Next is doomed?I think EQ Next will be fine. I just don't think voxels are the future. Remember silicon graphics?from my understanding voxel programing died because the computers of the day could not handle it. Now things appear to be changing.
EQ Next
Minecraft
Space Engineers
Just like Killer Instinct and Donkey Kong Country back in the day.
I think these games will be unique because of their voxels, but I don't think it will catch on. In fact, I don't think graphics will have anything to do with the evolution of mmos. I think it will be more along the lines of next gen AI and new types of character progression.
Originally posted by SEANMCADI think the next big trend can be said in one wordvoxel
Voxels are a clumsy hack. As soon as the gaming industry figures it that it should hire a handful of mathematicians to do amazing things with tessellation, voxels will be dead in a hurry.
Everquest Next is doomed?
I think EQ Next will be fine. I just don't think voxels are the future. Remember silicon graphics?
from my understanding voxel programing died because the computers of the day could not handle it. Now things appear to be changing.
EQ Next
Minecraft
Space Engineers
Just like Killer Instinct and Donkey Kong Country back in the day.
I think these games will be unique because of their voxels, but I don't think it will catch on. In fact, I don't think graphics will have anything to do with the evolution of mmos. I think it will be more along the lines of next gen AI and new types of character progression.
well again I stress my point on comments about 'back in the day' is that from my understand the reason voxel is not becoming more popular is because computers can handle the graphics/math better than in the past.
With that said, character progression changes would be nice. Skill based is the only game platform I will play
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by SEANMCADI think the next big trend can be said in one wordvoxel
Voxels are a clumsy hack. As soon as the gaming industry figures it that it should hire a handful of mathematicians to do amazing things with tessellation, voxels will be dead in a hurry.
Everquest Next is doomed?
I think EQ Next will be fine. I just don't think voxels are the future. Remember silicon graphics?
from my understanding voxel programing died because the computers of the day could not handle it. Now things appear to be changing.
EQ Next
Minecraft
Space Engineers
Suppose that you're deciding between method A and method B for graphics in a game. Method B gives you more versatility, produces much prettier graphics, and takes less work than method A. Which do you choose?
Now suppose that you have an already released game using method A. Do you cancel the game because method B is better? Of course not; if the gameplay is good enough, it can survive flawed graphics.
Voxels are method A. The only reason anyone does them is not knowing how to do tessellation or not being willing to restrict compatibility to modern graphics architectures (i.e., anything AMD or Nvidia released in September 2009 or later). In 2010, the latter was understandable; in 2020, how many games are going to insist that hardware from 2008 has to still be able to run the game? You can support older hardware, too, with fixed tessellation degrees done on the CPU; that doesn't work nearly as well, but it's still arguably better than voxels.
If I'm using tessellation and want to draw a cylinder, I can just tell the video card to draw a cylinder. Here's the axes, here's the position, here's the orientation, here's the texture, now draw it. If I want to change any of those other than the texture from one frame to the next, it's trivial to do so. It takes a little bit of work in writing shaders to set this up once, but the video card can subsequently figure out on its own where to put the vertices, as well as the texture coordinates and normal vectors at each vertex.
And it's not just cylinders. Tessellation lets you do that with any manifold with boundary for which you can write down an explicit triangulation (which is easy) and homeomorphism to the unit square, possibly up to taking some quotient space on the boundary.
If you can do that so easily, why would you want to use voxels? The only thing that's "hard" about it is that a typical programmer with a BS in computer science doesn't have much of a math background, so he's never seen a bunch of the concepts in the paragraph above this one and wouldn't be able to readily pick them up.
Now, I can understand preferring traditional rendering methods to this. Traditional rendering methods are designed to let real artists create artwork without having to worry much about the underlying mathematics. But voxels? No.
Originally posted by SEANMCADI think the next big trend can be said in one wordvoxel
Voxels are a clumsy hack. As soon as the gaming industry figures it that it should hire a handful of mathematicians to do amazing things with tessellation, voxels will be dead in a hurry.
Everquest Next is doomed?
I think EQ Next will be fine. I just don't think voxels are the future. Remember silicon graphics?
from my understanding voxel programing died because the computers of the day could not handle it. Now things appear to be changing.
EQ Next
Minecraft
Space Engineers
Suppose that you're deciding between method A and method B for graphics in a game. Method B gives you more versatility, produces much prettier graphics, and takes less work than method A. Which do you choose?
Now suppose that you have an already released game using method A. Do you cancel the game because method B is better? Of course not; if the gameplay is good enough, it can survive flawed graphics.
Voxels are method A. The only reason anyone does them is not knowing how to do tessellation or not being willing to restrict compatibility to modern graphics architectures (i.e., anything AMD or Nvidia released in September 2009 or later). In 2010, the latter was understandable; in 2020, how many games are going to insist that hardware from 2008 has to still be able to run the game? You can support older hardware, too, with fixed tessellation degrees done on the CPU; that doesn't work nearly as well, but it's still arguably better than voxels.
If I'm using tessellation and want to draw a cylinder, I can just tell the video card to draw a cylinder. Here's the axes, here's the position, here's the orientation, here's the texture, now draw it. If I want to change any of those other than the texture from one frame to the next, it's trivial to do so. It takes a little bit of work in writing shaders to set this up once, but the video card can subsequently figure out on its own where to put the vertices, as well as the texture coordinates and normal vectors at each vertex.
And it's not just cylinders. Tessellation lets you do that with any manifold with boundary for which you can write down an explicit triangulation (which is easy) and homeomorphism to the unit square, possibly up to taking some quotient space on the boundary.
If you can do that so easily, why would you want to use voxels? The only thing that's "hard" about it is that a typical programmer with a BS in computer science doesn't have much of a math background, so he's never seen a bunch of the concepts in the paragraph above this one and wouldn't be able to readily pick them up.
Now, I can understand preferring traditional rendering methods to this. Traditional rendering methods are designed to let real artists create artwork without having to worry much about the underlying mathematics. But voxels? No.
let me try again.
from my understanding voxels have become popular now not because the programmers at Everquest dont know what they are doing but because computers can now handle the math that previous generation of computers could not handle well.
Is that statement incorrect?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Xenoblade is a single player rpg that would have made a wonderful MMO. If you want to play a single player good MMO, play it.
Still ridiculous...
Playing an MMO has NEVER meant grouping. This is proven. But still we see this garbage.Solo play has NEVER hurt an MMO. Except in the eyes of fragile little snowflakes that think we all have to be in groups.
Playing an MMO might not mean grouping but playing a good MMO means grouping.
Solo play in an MMO is just ridiculous........get a bunch of people in a single world to play alone. Ridiculous. And Absurd.
"good" is subjective.
So I just played 15 min of Marvel Heroes solo ... "ridiculous" to you .. fun for me. Is there a reason I should stop just because some random dude on the internet disagree on how I should use an entertainment product? Now THAT is ridiculous.
I hope that online games of the future deserve the Ms. The stuff we have seen in the last few years was either not massive meaning small, narrow and sometimes even instanced zones and/or the multiplayer part was highly optional. When I look back at games that were done a decade ago I get the feeling the engines and basic game design devolved. The increases in computing speed seem to be used to make them more like singleplayer games and not expanding the multiplayer part.
Instead of more people and bigger zones the focus is on better graphics. That might be a personal thing, me being one of those people setting everything to low and shadows off even if you could run it on high, but I'd prefer to see more people on a huge map than having each and every light particle reflect 100% correctly off my highly detailed armor.
Basicly I hope for games going in the direction of Camelot Unchained with its lag free 10'000 people on the screen at the same time and improved Minecraft ish crafting. Not sure if they use voxels but from what I've seen in their video it would make sense. And we really need a more skill based system. Tab target - non tab target, I'd prefer non tab and fps like but either way I want to cast a spell and see the thing flying in a direction. Asheron's Call players know what I mean. Remember mage fights? bolt-bolt-streak-bolt-arc-streak-streak... You can dodge the spell by moving but also if someone runs in the i.e. fireball by mistake this char gets hit. These cruise missile spells we have now are getting boring.
The next evolution of MMO's summed up is The Crowdfunded MMO.
Titles like Star Citizen and Camelot Unchained are going to change the industry big time.
This !!!
Originally posted by Foomerang
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by SEANMCADI think the next big trend can be said in one wordvoxel
Voxels are a clumsy hack. As soon as the gaming industry figures it that it should hire a handful of mathematicians to do amazing things with tessellation, voxels will be dead in a hurry.
Everquest Next is doomed?
I think EQ Next will be fine. I just don't think voxels are the future. Remember silicon graphics?
Umm i do not think you understand what Voxels are.
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Foomerang
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by SEANMCADI think the next big trend can be said in one wordvoxel
Voxels are a clumsy hack. As soon as the gaming industry figures it that it should hire a handful of mathematicians to do amazing things with tessellation, voxels will be dead in a hurry.
Everquest Next is doomed?
I think EQ Next will be fine. I just don't think voxels are the future. Remember silicon graphics?
from my understanding voxel programing died because the computers of the day could not handle it. Now things appear to be changing.
EQ Next
Minecraft
Space Engineers
Suppose that you're deciding between method A and method B for graphics in a game. Method B gives you more versatility, produces much prettier graphics, and takes less work than method A. Which do you choose?
Now suppose that you have an already released game using method A. Do you cancel the game because method B is better? Of course not; if the gameplay is good enough, it can survive flawed graphics.
Voxels are method A. The only reason anyone does them is not knowing how to do tessellation or not being willing to restrict compatibility to modern graphics architectures (i.e., anything AMD or Nvidia released in September 2009 or later). In 2010, the latter was understandable; in 2020, how many games are going to insist that hardware from 2008 has to still be able to run the game? You can support older hardware, too, with fixed tessellation degrees done on the CPU; that doesn't work nearly as well, but it's still arguably better than voxels.
If I'm using tessellation and want to draw a cylinder, I can just tell the video card to draw a cylinder. Here's the axes, here's the position, here's the orientation, here's the texture, now draw it. If I want to change any of those other than the texture from one frame to the next, it's trivial to do so. It takes a little bit of work in writing shaders to set this up once, but the video card can subsequently figure out on its own where to put the vertices, as well as the texture coordinates and normal vectors at each vertex.
And it's not just cylinders. Tessellation lets you do that with any manifold with boundary for which you can write down an explicit triangulation (which is easy) and homeomorphism to the unit square, possibly up to taking some quotient space on the boundary.
If you can do that so easily, why would you want to use voxels? The only thing that's "hard" about it is that a typical programmer with a BS in computer science doesn't have much of a math background, so he's never seen a bunch of the concepts in the paragraph above this one and wouldn't be able to readily pick them up.
Now, I can understand preferring traditional rendering methods to this. Traditional rendering methods are designed to let real artists create artwork without having to worry much about the underlying mathematics. But voxels? No.
let me try again.
from my understanding voxels have become popular now not because the programmers at Everquest dont know what they are doing but because computers can now handle the math that previous generation of computers could not handle well.
This for me was the first voxel game i ever played, at the time of its release it was pretty stunning. The math needed to run as far as i understood was not the problem, it was the fact that the video cards back then did nothing to help render voxels.
Voxels now are used differently then how they were used in this game, but the principal is still there, just now nVidia and AMD process voxels.
If you never played Outcast i strongly recommend it, i felt when i played this game it was ahead of its time.
from my understanding voxels have become popular now not because the programmers at Everquest dont know what they are doing but because computers can now handle the math that previous generation of computers could not handle well.
Is that statement incorrect?
Yes, that statement is incorrect. The newest graphics API that Minecraft will use is OpenGL 2.1, which released in 2006--and OpenGL was years behind DirectX at that point, so the same thing could have been done with DirectX sooner. Minecraft used to support older versions of OpenGL, too, though they've now dropped legacy support for ancient hardware.
In terms of hardware performance, you can readily make a game run on "slower" hardware with the same API compatibility just by having it do less stuff. If you want to run on a video card and CPU half as powerful, just draw half as many things.
The graphics APIs haven't really added anything that you look at and say, they did that so that people could use voxels. Geometry shaders and the tessellation stages do add more versatility, so using the modern capabilities probably does make it a lot easier to use voxels. But if you're using tessellation to do voxels, you're doing it wrong: if you can do tessellation, there's no point in using voxels.
from my understanding voxels have become popular now not because the programmers at Everquest dont know what they are doing but because computers can now handle the math that previous generation of computers could not handle well.
Is that statement incorrect?
Yes, that statement is incorrect. The newest graphics API that Minecraft will use is OpenGL 2.1, which released in 2006--and OpenGL was years behind DirectX at that point, so the same thing could have been done with DirectX sooner. Minecraft used to support older versions of OpenGL, too, though they've now dropped legacy support for ancient hardware.
In terms of hardware performance, you can readily make a game run on "slower" hardware with the same API compatibility just by having it do less stuff. If you want to run on a video card and CPU half as powerful, just draw half as many things.
The graphics APIs haven't really added anything that you look at and say, they did that so that people could use voxels. Geometry shaders and the tessellation stages do add more versatility, so using the modern capabilities probably does make it a lot easier to use voxels. But if you're using tessellation to do voxels, you're doing it wrong: if you can do tessellation, there's no point in using voxels.
according to Voiidiin the progress now has been related to graphics cards.
So as I understand it now there are two places I have heard that the reasons for voxels popularity didnt just come from nowhere but rather is related to technologies that did not exist previously. I will try to find a more 'news style' source.
after some research what I understand is that voxel rendering is done by software because the video cards are not using hardware rendering techologies which I assume they could but have choosen not to.
Do I have that right?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Originally posted by Agent_Joseph here is not evolution with current new mmo's & incoming mmo's ,it is degeneration in genre
That sums up the mmo of today, and it is why I do not play them anymore. Part of me still hopes, hopes there is a developer out there that will have the balls to make a hardcore PvE MMO. Sure it wont have millions of subs, but it will hold a very nice player base for many years.
I remember the good ole days when you had to work together to accomplish objectives, where in a party you had class roles and people had to work together, instead of just button mashing, where a mistake would cause a wipe. When you accomplished something, it felt like you really accomplished something. Those are the games I long for.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
from my understanding voxels have become popular now not because the programmers at Everquest dont know what they are doing but because computers can now handle the math that previous generation of computers could not handle well.
Is that statement incorrect?
Yes, that statement is incorrect. The newest graphics API that Minecraft will use is OpenGL 2.1, which released in 2006--and OpenGL was years behind DirectX at that point, so the same thing could have been done with DirectX sooner. Minecraft used to support older versions of OpenGL, too, though they've now dropped legacy support for ancient hardware.
In terms of hardware performance, you can readily make a game run on "slower" hardware with the same API compatibility just by having it do less stuff. If you want to run on a video card and CPU half as powerful, just draw half as many things.
The graphics APIs haven't really added anything that you look at and say, they did that so that people could use voxels. Geometry shaders and the tessellation stages do add more versatility, so using the modern capabilities probably does make it a lot easier to use voxels. But if you're using tessellation to do voxels, you're doing it wrong: if you can do tessellation, there's no point in using voxels.
according to Voiidiin the progress now has been related to graphics cards.
So as I understand it now there are two places I have heard that the reasons for voxels popularity didnt just come from nowhere but rather is related to technologies that did not exist previously. I will try to find a more 'news style' source.
after some research what I understand is that voxel rendering is done by software because the video cards are not using hardware rendering techologies which I assume they could but have choosen not to.
Do I have that right?
I know OpenGL. I've written and debugged several dozen shaders for the tessellation stages alone--which didn't even exist in the core API until 2010. I'm not just guessing based on summaries of press releases written by tech reporters who don't entirely understand what is going on.
If what enabled voxels was new GPU capabilities, then the games that use voxels wouldn't run on older video cards.
from my understanding voxels have become popular now not because the programmers at Everquest dont know what they are doing but because computers can now handle the math that previous generation of computers could not handle well.
Is that statement incorrect?
Yes, that statement is incorrect. The newest graphics API that Minecraft will use is OpenGL 2.1, which released in 2006--and OpenGL was years behind DirectX at that point, so the same thing could have been done with DirectX sooner. Minecraft used to support older versions of OpenGL, too, though they've now dropped legacy support for ancient hardware.
In terms of hardware performance, you can readily make a game run on "slower" hardware with the same API compatibility just by having it do less stuff. If you want to run on a video card and CPU half as powerful, just draw half as many things.
The graphics APIs haven't really added anything that you look at and say, they did that so that people could use voxels. Geometry shaders and the tessellation stages do add more versatility, so using the modern capabilities probably does make it a lot easier to use voxels. But if you're using tessellation to do voxels, you're doing it wrong: if you can do tessellation, there's no point in using voxels.
according to Voiidiin the progress now has been related to graphics cards.
So as I understand it now there are two places I have heard that the reasons for voxels popularity didnt just come from nowhere but rather is related to technologies that did not exist previously. I will try to find a more 'news style' source.
after some research what I understand is that voxel rendering is done by software because the video cards are not using hardware rendering techologies which I assume they could but have choosen not to.
Do I have that right?
I know OpenGL. I've written and debugged several dozen shaders for the tessellation stages alone--which didn't even exist in the core API until 2010. I'm not just guessing based on summaries of press releases written by tech reporters who don't entirely understand what is going on.
If what enabled voxels was new GPU capabilities, then the games that use voxels wouldn't run on older video cards.
so if future graphics cards plan to have voxel based rendering in the hardware then over time it would become a win for voxel but at this time it is not because the hardware isnt processing voxel...correct?
I dont doubt that what I read is accurate. Namely because its easily understood. ALL things, voxel or otherwise, are easier to process now then they were 10 years ago. Is that enough to be the sudden interest in voxel by many developers? I dont know but it does appear to be happening
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Comments
???
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
More and more it will be personal personal personal plus instant uberness new mmo's.
The reason why i play solo games.
MMO's not worth my time anymore.
I can't stand other players anymore mainly because of cheating and there attitude of want everything easy way and and fast today's generation don't take time anymore or wanne invest time.
Asheron's call old days or even Darkfall 1 first half year are MMO'S i wanne play(without cheaters offcorse)
Only multiplayer i play sometimes is DayZ SA
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
The next evolution of MMO's summed up is The Crowdfunded MMO.
Titles like Star Citizen and Camelot Unchained are going to change the industry big time.
Today's people just think grouping somehow means socializing maybe?
I alway's played solo allot but also had plenty of interaction with other players. I am that crafter, I like to explore go out for resources can do that a whole playsession if I want to. I still interact I might hit a group, I might trade, I might just have a conversation about the game, it's world, it's lore or a adventure I have been on. I might want to help another person. I might get a custom order to craft something for some other player. Still most time still solo.
I want other people in my MMORPG but to me a good MMORPG offers players a natural way of grouping when people want to group. Forced grouping is something that for me belongs in normal multiplayer games.
Still thinking it might take another 5 to 8 years before we truly see something revolutionairy in this genre. For now we have to do with slight chances, some minor innovations, some things like phasing to mature more to become that what developeres really want to do with phasing.
Google "sarcasm".
How I see evolution of mmo's? Well, like you said, remove all other players from it, to stop all the complaining about racist chat, and breaking immersion. Make only a scoreboard, so you are still able to compare yourself to someone.
Wear oculus rift for amazing 3D experience. And if we are speaking of oculus, add facebook connection, so you can share with friends what you just did, since you can't see them in game anymore.
And achievements... lots of them, the more pointless they are the better, just more numbers to do for nothing. Just so your friends can see you killed 10.000 centaurs, and admire your lack of better things to do.
And full sandbox. Just a sand of voxels, a huge desert of voxel with nothing in it, you login and build the game yourself, developers won't have to do sh*t. All the saved money, and the crowd is happy. A pile of voxels, and you can do anything you want. No story, so people won't complain that it is short.
No levels because people have work and family and can't keep up with others. Just skill points based on actions you are doing, so you can tape your mouse button hitting a crab like old SNES times, while you eat your breakfast and comeback to a stronger character. Wait, correct that, your character can now auto level skills since it would be a pain to do it yourself, and people want to be happy when playing, not WORK!
Did I miss anything? More customization! Because it matters for me if the nose bridge is 1/20 inch longer, since an alien with 10k x 10k resolution screen would notice that in battle.
There, perfect mmorpg.com community game. You're welcome.
Voxels are a clumsy hack. As soon as the gaming industry figures it that it should hire a handful of mathematicians to do amazing things with tessellation, voxels will be dead in a hurry.
Everquest Next is doomed?
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I think EQ Next will be fine. I just don't think voxels are the future. Remember silicon graphics?
from my understanding voxel programing died because the computers of the day could not handle it. Now things appear to be changing.
EQ Next
Minecraft
Space Engineers
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Everquest Next is doomed?
I think EQ Next will be fine. I just don't think voxels are the future. Remember silicon graphics?
from my understanding voxel programing died because the computers of the day could not handle it. Now things appear to be changing.
EQ Next
Minecraft
Space Engineers
Just like Killer Instinct and Donkey Kong Country back in the day.
I think these games will be unique because of their voxels, but I don't think it will catch on. In fact, I don't think graphics will have anything to do with the evolution of mmos. I think it will be more along the lines of next gen AI and new types of character progression.
well again I stress my point on comments about 'back in the day' is that from my understand the reason voxel is not becoming more popular is because computers can handle the graphics/math better than in the past.
With that said, character progression changes would be nice. Skill based is the only game platform I will play
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Suppose that you're deciding between method A and method B for graphics in a game. Method B gives you more versatility, produces much prettier graphics, and takes less work than method A. Which do you choose?
Now suppose that you have an already released game using method A. Do you cancel the game because method B is better? Of course not; if the gameplay is good enough, it can survive flawed graphics.
Voxels are method A. The only reason anyone does them is not knowing how to do tessellation or not being willing to restrict compatibility to modern graphics architectures (i.e., anything AMD or Nvidia released in September 2009 or later). In 2010, the latter was understandable; in 2020, how many games are going to insist that hardware from 2008 has to still be able to run the game? You can support older hardware, too, with fixed tessellation degrees done on the CPU; that doesn't work nearly as well, but it's still arguably better than voxels.
If I'm using tessellation and want to draw a cylinder, I can just tell the video card to draw a cylinder. Here's the axes, here's the position, here's the orientation, here's the texture, now draw it. If I want to change any of those other than the texture from one frame to the next, it's trivial to do so. It takes a little bit of work in writing shaders to set this up once, but the video card can subsequently figure out on its own where to put the vertices, as well as the texture coordinates and normal vectors at each vertex.
And it's not just cylinders. Tessellation lets you do that with any manifold with boundary for which you can write down an explicit triangulation (which is easy) and homeomorphism to the unit square, possibly up to taking some quotient space on the boundary.
If you can do that so easily, why would you want to use voxels? The only thing that's "hard" about it is that a typical programmer with a BS in computer science doesn't have much of a math background, so he's never seen a bunch of the concepts in the paragraph above this one and wouldn't be able to readily pick them up.
Now, I can understand preferring traditional rendering methods to this. Traditional rendering methods are designed to let real artists create artwork without having to worry much about the underlying mathematics. But voxels? No.
let me try again.
from my understanding voxels have become popular now not because the programmers at Everquest dont know what they are doing but because computers can now handle the math that previous generation of computers could not handle well.
Is that statement incorrect?
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"good" is subjective.
So I just played 15 min of Marvel Heroes solo ... "ridiculous" to you .. fun for me. Is there a reason I should stop just because some random dude on the internet disagree on how I should use an entertainment product? Now THAT is ridiculous.
I almost always play my MMOs solo.
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I hope that online games of the future deserve the Ms. The stuff we have seen in the last few years was either not massive meaning small, narrow and sometimes even instanced zones and/or the multiplayer part was highly optional. When I look back at games that were done a decade ago I get the feeling the engines and basic game design devolved. The increases in computing speed seem to be used to make them more like singleplayer games and not expanding the multiplayer part.
Instead of more people and bigger zones the focus is on better graphics. That might be a personal thing, me being one of those people setting everything to low and shadows off even if you could run it on high, but I'd prefer to see more people on a huge map than having each and every light particle reflect 100% correctly off my highly detailed armor.
Basicly I hope for games going in the direction of Camelot Unchained with its lag free 10'000 people on the screen at the same time and improved Minecraft ish crafting. Not sure if they use voxels but from what I've seen in their video it would make sense. And we really need a more skill based system. Tab target - non tab target, I'd prefer non tab and fps like but either way I want to cast a spell and see the thing flying in a direction. Asheron's Call players know what I mean. Remember mage fights? bolt-bolt-streak-bolt-arc-streak-streak... You can dodge the spell by moving but also if someone runs in the i.e. fireball by mistake this char gets hit. These cruise missile spells we have now are getting boring.
http://www.gog.com/game/outcast
This for me was the first voxel game i ever played, at the time of its release it was pretty stunning. The math needed to run as far as i understood was not the problem, it was the fact that the video cards back then did nothing to help render voxels.
Voxels now are used differently then how they were used in this game, but the principal is still there, just now nVidia and AMD process voxels.
If you never played Outcast i strongly recommend it, i felt when i played this game it was ahead of its time.
Lolipops !
Yes, that statement is incorrect. The newest graphics API that Minecraft will use is OpenGL 2.1, which released in 2006--and OpenGL was years behind DirectX at that point, so the same thing could have been done with DirectX sooner. Minecraft used to support older versions of OpenGL, too, though they've now dropped legacy support for ancient hardware.
In terms of hardware performance, you can readily make a game run on "slower" hardware with the same API compatibility just by having it do less stuff. If you want to run on a video card and CPU half as powerful, just draw half as many things.
The graphics APIs haven't really added anything that you look at and say, they did that so that people could use voxels. Geometry shaders and the tessellation stages do add more versatility, so using the modern capabilities probably does make it a lot easier to use voxels. But if you're using tessellation to do voxels, you're doing it wrong: if you can do tessellation, there's no point in using voxels.
according to Voiidiin the progress now has been related to graphics cards.
So as I understand it now there are two places I have heard that the reasons for voxels popularity didnt just come from nowhere but rather is related to technologies that did not exist previously. I will try to find a more 'news style' source.
after some research what I understand is that voxel rendering is done by software because the video cards are not using hardware rendering techologies which I assume they could but have choosen not to.
Do I have that right?
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That sums up the mmo of today, and it is why I do not play them anymore. Part of me still hopes, hopes there is a developer out there that will have the balls to make a hardcore PvE MMO. Sure it wont have millions of subs, but it will hold a very nice player base for many years.
I remember the good ole days when you had to work together to accomplish objectives, where in a party you had class roles and people had to work together, instead of just button mashing, where a mistake would cause a wipe. When you accomplished something, it felt like you really accomplished something. Those are the games I long for.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
I know OpenGL. I've written and debugged several dozen shaders for the tessellation stages alone--which didn't even exist in the core API until 2010. I'm not just guessing based on summaries of press releases written by tech reporters who don't entirely understand what is going on.
If what enabled voxels was new GPU capabilities, then the games that use voxels wouldn't run on older video cards.
so if future graphics cards plan to have voxel based rendering in the hardware then over time it would become a win for voxel but at this time it is not because the hardware isnt processing voxel...correct?
I dont doubt that what I read is accurate. Namely because its easily understood. ALL things, voxel or otherwise, are easier to process now then they were 10 years ago. Is that enough to be the sudden interest in voxel by many developers? I dont know but it does appear to be happening
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