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Gold Buyers : Losers or Not?

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  • MaelwyddMaelwydd CrawleyPosts: 1,123Member
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by Kyleran

     

    Here's a much better analogy.  Modern day, real life theme parks (aka Sea World, Disney, Six Flags) all charge a standard price to get into the park, which gives you access to most of the attractions, much like a MMORPG does.

    However, there is a grind to it, you have to wait in long lines to ride the attractions, sometimes up to several hours, which sucks and is no fun.

    Or., you can pay extra (sometimes much extra)  for a fast pass, which gives you access to step past everyone else and cut down your wait times to a very short interval.  I sort of smirk at the folks standing in the slow lane as I barge past them. (same is true in airports now, I can buy preferred boarding access and even pay extra for better seats up front)

    So while I would not advise buying Fast Passes or better airline seats from a shady 3rd party, buying this access from the primary seller I have no problem with.

     

    I like the analogy but not for the reasons you might think. You see I would never cut the line by paying extra for a few reasons.

    Firstly, I have respect for other people and so cutting ahead is unfair to them and very disrespectful. It essentially means you look down on them enough to make their wait even longer rather then respecting them enough to just get in line and wait your turn.  Yes, true, every man for himself in a theme park, not concerned with the experience of others, they could pay extra for it just as I did.

    Secondly is shows that you have the opinion that having more money then another person somehow makes you a better person. You smirk at them, barge past them and pay extra to get 'what you deserve' because you have no respect for other people.  Well, yes, I work long hours, and sacrifice much time that I could spend gaming or with my family in order to make a fair amount of money, I chose to spend it as I please.  Other people are competition in many factors of life, if they aren't on my "team", then no, not too concerned about them. 

    Thirdly, waiting in line at these types of attractions allows you the time to interact with your friends and others in the queue. Something someone with poor social skills or few friends may not appreciate and those who think paying for the opportunity to bypass such activities is probably oblivious to.

    I've never viewed killing 2 hours in line for Space mountain with 3 children in toe as quality time, i'd rather get through the ride line and sit in a nearby cafe eating an icecream in air conditioning while we interact.

    The same reasons above apply to online social games, including doing so for lack of time. People who think it is acceptable to go to a themepark and jump on all the rides as quick as possible to head home and brag about how many rides they went on is, like in an MMO, missing the point entirely. If you don't have the day to spend at the park I suggest you wait till a day is available where you can or you simply find an activity that fits your timescale.

    You are just talking nonsense.  I recall going to Six Flags Magic Mountain, bought fast passes for all my children (they were older now) and they managed to ride every ride in the park that they were interested in, some of them twice.  Had they waited their turn, they would have only hit about 1/2 of the rides before the park closed.

    Time is a valuable commodity (perhaps the most valuable) and not to be wasted, true in life, true in gaming.

     

    Yeah I see what type of person you are now.

  • naaminaami Dallas, TXPosts: 163Member Common

    I don't like the idea of "convenience" in games. In real life convenience will improve the quality of living. But in games does it improve the quality of gameplay? Imo no and because so many resort to buying gold that means there is a flaw in the game design. Sometimes an intentional one.

  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,970Member Uncommon
    I don't consider grinding as 'playing' so.. those who choose to pay to avoid grinding are kind of sensible in my mind. I do not buy gold.. I never have but I can fully understand why some people would. Myself though.. If I ever feel like I need to pay my way out of boredom or tedium, I know it's time to stop playing that particular game.
  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

     

    Are you missing his point or (poorly) dodging it? Either way, you've effectively derailed this thread to yet another pay to win tirade, so I guess we're done here. 

    Not to be that guy, but.....I told you so :P

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,908Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by Kyleran

     

    Here's a much better analogy.  Modern day, real life theme parks (aka Sea World, Disney, Six Flags) all charge a standard price to get into the park, which gives you access to most of the attractions, much like a MMORPG does.

    However, there is a grind to it, you have to wait in long lines to ride the attractions, sometimes up to several hours, which sucks and is no fun.

    Or., you can pay extra (sometimes much extra)  for a fast pass, which gives you access to step past everyone else and cut down your wait times to a very short interval.  I sort of smirk at the folks standing in the slow lane as I barge past them. (same is true in airports now, I can buy preferred boarding access and even pay extra for better seats up front)

    So while I would not advise buying Fast Passes or better airline seats from a shady 3rd party, buying this access from the primary seller I have no problem with.

     

    I like the analogy but not for the reasons you might think. You see I would never cut the line by paying extra for a few reasons.

    Firstly, I have respect for other people and so cutting ahead is unfair to them and very disrespectful. It essentially means you look down on them enough to make their wait even longer rather then respecting them enough to just get in line and wait your turn.  Yes, true, every man for himself in a theme park, not concerned with the experience of others, they could pay extra for it just as I did.

    Secondly is shows that you have the opinion that having more money then another person somehow makes you a better person. You smirk at them, barge past them and pay extra to get 'what you deserve' because you have no respect for other people.  Well, yes, I work long hours, and sacrifice much time that I could spend gaming or with my family in order to make a fair amount of money, I chose to spend it as I please.  Other people are competition in many factors of life, if they aren't on my "team", then no, not too concerned about them. 

    Thirdly, waiting in line at these types of attractions allows you the time to interact with your friends and others in the queue. Something someone with poor social skills or few friends may not appreciate and those who think paying for the opportunity to bypass such activities is probably oblivious to.

    I've never viewed killing 2 hours in line for Space mountain with 3 children in toe as quality time, i'd rather get through the ride line and sit in a nearby cafe eating an icecream in air conditioning while we interact.

    The same reasons above apply to online social games, including doing so for lack of time. People who think it is acceptable to go to a themepark and jump on all the rides as quick as possible to head home and brag about how many rides they went on is, like in an MMO, missing the point entirely. If you don't have the day to spend at the park I suggest you wait till a day is available where you can or you simply find an activity that fits your timescale.

    You are just talking nonsense.  I recall going to Six Flags Magic Mountain, bought fast passes for all my children (they were older now) and they managed to ride every ride in the park that they were interested in, some of them twice.  Had they waited their turn, they would have only hit about 1/2 of the rides before the park closed.

    Time is a valuable commodity (perhaps the most valuable) and not to be wasted, true in life, true in gaming.

     

    Yeah I see what type of person you are now.

    Practical?

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Normal? Places more value on activities with family than waiting in line ups with family.

    Sounds pretty well adjusted.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • KrematoryKrematory TVNPosts: 542Member Uncommon
    Losers who don't play by the rules. I say burn them!

    "EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran

  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDPosts: 2,580Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Krematory
    Losers who don't play by the rules. I say burn them!

    Cheat to win....join Team Evil.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,665Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

     

    Are you missing his point or (poorly) dodging it? Either way, you've effectively derailed this thread to yet another pay to win tirade, so I guess we're done here. 

    Not to be that guy, but.....I told you so :P

    Damn you. :) 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • GyrusGyrus Lost City of ZPosts: 2,335Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by TangentPoint
    Originally posted by Gyrus
    Originally posted by inemosz

    .... Why would anyone buy gold if they can gather it themselves and actually have fun while doing that?

    ....

    What do you think?

    That's the point right there - if players would rather pay money rather than collect the gold themselves - or pay someone else to level up their characters (power leveling services) then that suggests these activities are not 'fun'.

    That's a game design problem.

    100% disagree.

    It's not a "design problem".

    It's a "no game is designed for everyone, and that's okay" situation. 

    Going by your logic, it would be like going to a restaurant, voluntarily trying some new dish you've never tried before, then blaming it on "a lousy chef" when you don't like it - even though many around you are enjoying it just fine.

    "I don't enjoy this activity I'm voluntarily participating in" is not an excuse to cheat or bypass it. It's reason to reconsider your choice of activity and find something else you would enjoy... even if that means finding another game entirely.

    To say it's a "game design problem" because a game, or some activity, happens to not be designed specifically " for you" is pure ego-centric, self-entitled nonsense. It's indicative of someone in need of a reality check, to realize there's a whole wide world beyond their own nose, and they aren't at the center of it.

    Especially when others around "you" are participating in the same activities and enjoying it just fine.

     

    Here's a much better analogy.  Modern day, real life theme parks (aka Sea World, Disney, Six Flags) all charge a standard price to get into the park, which gives you access to most of the attractions, much like a MMORPG does.

    However, there is a grind to it, you have to wait in long lines to ride the attractions, sometimes up to several hours, which sucks and is no fun.

    Or., you can pay extra (sometimes much extra)  for a fast pass, which gives you access to step past everyone else and cut down your wait times to a very short interval.  I sort of smirk at the folks standing in the slow lane as I barge past them. (same is true in airports now, I can buy preferred boarding access and even pay extra for better seats up front)

    So while I would not advise buying Fast Passes or better airline seats from a shady 3rd party, buying this access from the primary seller I have no problem with.

     

    ...and then there are all the people who now have to stand in line that much longer because some have bought queue jumping passes... you don't see a problem with that?

    Thanks, TangentPoint for an interesting reply.

    And thanks Kyleran for an interesting response.

    To use the restaurant analogy, I agree that if you don't like any of the dishes offered - you shouldn't eat there again.

    But what if you really like the dessert and coffee?  And what if the restaurant said - sorry you can only have dessert if you eat the main meal?  (and it has to be eaten not simply returned or scrapped into a plantpot?)  Because that's what Gold Buyers are saying.  I like this part - but hate having to do this part to get there.  I would rather pay someone else not to have to do that.  Now sure, if it's just one or two people, it's a reflection on the players, not the game.  But if it was just one or two people most players wouldn't notice and it wouldn't be an issue.

    Edit: At theme parks - when the queue for a ride gets too long... people avoid that ride.  Or they say "I will do something else and come back."  (sometimes they do, often they don't)  So the park operators have a choice... do nothing, offer premium ride passes(as explained), expand or build another ride.  In all cases (except do nothing) they have looked at the game design and modified it.  Their choice will decide the long term fortune of their park.

     

     @Iselin

    ...and then there are all the people who now have to stand in line that much longer because some have bought queue jumping passes... you don't see a problem with that?

    So, how do you feel about Pre-Orders and early access and head starts?  Same thing?

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • lunatiquezlunatiquez San Fransisco, CAPosts: 381Member

    Over 30% are justifying gold buying, or the ones who buy gold, in this very site, mmorpg.

    I lost my hope on this genre.

  • JOverlordJOverlord Long Beach, CAPosts: 132Member
    Originally posted by inemosz

    Over 30% are justifying gold buying, or the ones who buy gold, in this very site, mmorpg.

    I lost my hope on this genre.

    Make sure you dont leave your room. You will be very disappointed.

  • GyrusGyrus Lost City of ZPosts: 2,335Member
    Originally posted by inemosz

    Over 30% are justifying gold buying, or the ones who buy gold, in this very site, mmorpg.

    I lost my hope on this genre.

    So when you started this thread "Gold Buyers ; Losers or Not?" it wasn't a question.

    What you meant to say was: "Gold Buyers ; I hate them.  Point made.  Please don't post if you have an alternate point."?

     

    You really don't get this forum thing do you?


     

     

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    The only players to lose are those outside the sell/buy transaction.
  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Gyrus

    No need to be disrespectful, not sure what you seek to gain in that.

    Also, the difference between gold selling and preorder packs is that 1, preorder money is going to the company making the game you're playing hopefully going back into the game. 2, preorder packs don't effect the in game economy like gold selling can.

    It's a selfish practice.
  • JOverlordJOverlord Long Beach, CAPosts: 132Member
    Originally posted by Aelious
    The only players to lose are those outside the sell/buy transaction.

    How so? The gold is already in the game. No one is adding any extra items. The economy today will be the same as the economy tomorrow. Players who are buying gold now will increase the demand of products which increases the prices. This now counteracts the price drop from botters who increased the supply of items on the market. 

    The only true bad thing I see from these people is hacking into accounts. That disrupts gameplay. I dont condone those actions. 

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,289Member Uncommon

    Gold selling is a contentious issue, part of the problem is that the companies that sell the gold, the RMT traders, are often the same people that hack players accounts so that they can ransack them of valuables in order to gain that gold to sell in the first place, so what a gold buyer is doing is sanctioning the hacking of other players accounts, and supporting the people who do this directly by paying them for the stolen resources, in a game with any kind of an economy, it can also destabilise the market, its one of the reasons why in Eve Online where the market is entirely player driven, that they clamp down hard not just on isk sellers but on the people who buy isk, repeat offenders do after all permanently lose their accounts.

    So gold buyers are little more than hypocrites, after all their activity is helping to ruin a game they claim they like playing, and for entirely selfish reasons, not only that, they are directly supporting those who ruin the game experiences of others by buying items that have been obtained in a fashion that is usually classed as a criminal offence no matter what country you live in, never mind that its against the terms of the EULA in whatever game it relates to. image

     

    Which is why, if i know of anyone buying gold in a game, i will always report them for doing so, as should anyone who cares enough about the games they play.image

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,665Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Gyrus

    No need to be disrespectful, not sure what you seek to gain in that.

    Also, the difference between gold selling and preorder packs is that 1, preorder money is going to the company making the game you're playing hopefully going back into the game. 2, preorder packs don't effect the in game economy like gold selling can.

    It's a selfish practice.

    It's interesting that the people against gold buying position against third party sellers, which isn't the subject of the thread, nor the only place to buy gold. That's the disconnect here. 

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    JOverlord

    I was able to witness how gold buying/botting/farming effected the markets with Aion and it inflated it quite a bit. Granted, this doesn't mean all games turn out this way. You're right that the farming of items does increase product, lowering prices, but those savvy about the market are able to use that to their advantage and eventually it artificially tweaks the market.

    Since a larger amount of product is being introduced, that is only used for market sale, it doesn't reflect on the market in the same way.

    Aside from the in game implications is the moral. Side companies can be dangerous to player accounts and are using another companies intellectual property to make money. That extra revenue should be going back into the game or at least the owners of it.
  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Boring, TXPosts: 1,171Member Uncommon

    ITT: Being Smart = Being Lazy.

     

     

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Great point and you are exactly correct. I shall redeem myself!

    In fact, when I first read the OP I thought about cheat codes in Elder Scrolls. Once you know they exist and bring yourself to do it the seal has been broken. I think the sane theory applies here. The exact intention of the buyer cannot be know as there are a multitude of reasons why they would seek a shorter route. Losers? Not IMO. Cheaters? Yes, if it goes against the EULA of the game.

    Part of the problem could be the fact money alone can help progress someone so much in the meta of an MMO.
  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,289Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Gyrus

    No need to be disrespectful, not sure what you seek to gain in that.

    Also, the difference between gold selling and preorder packs is that 1, preorder money is going to the company making the game you're playing hopefully going back into the game. 2, preorder packs don't effect the in game economy like gold selling can.

    It's a selfish practice.

    It's interesting that the people against gold buying position against third party sellers, which isn't the subject of the thread, nor the only place to buy gold. That's the disconnect here. 

     

    Normally the only way to buy gold or whatever in game currency the game uses, in a game is through these 3rd party sellers, or RMT traders, the number of games that sell in game currency for real money is probably very small, i think games like Entropia Universe do, but i also consider them to be a bit 'dodgy' and little more than some kind of pyramid selling/gambling game, and hopefully the 'exception to the rule' as MMO companies generally don't like to destabilise their own games.image

  • JOverlordJOverlord Long Beach, CAPosts: 132Member
    Originally posted by Aelious
    JOverlord

    I was able to witness how gold buying/botting/farming effected the markets with Aion and it inflated it quite a bit. Granted, this doesn't mean all games turn out this way. You're right that the farming of items does increase product, lowering prices, but those savvy about the market are able to use that to their advantage and eventually it artificially tweaks the market.

    Since a larger amount of product is being introduced, that is only used for market sale, it doesn't reflect on the market in the same way.

    Aside from the in game implications is the moral. Side companies can be dangerous to player accounts and are using another companies intellectual property to make money. That extra revenue should be going back into the game or at least the owners of it.

    Wouldnt that mean playing the AH is much more dangerous than botting?

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JOverlord
    Originally posted by Aelious
    JOverlord

    I was able to witness how gold buying/botting/farming effected the markets with Aion and it inflated it quite a bit. Granted, this doesn't mean all games turn out this way. You're right that the farming of items does increase product, lowering prices, but those savvy about the market are able to use that to their advantage and eventually it artificially tweaks the market.

    Since a larger amount of product is being introduced, that is only used for market sale, it doesn't reflect on the market in the same way.

    Aside from the in game implications is the moral. Side companies can be dangerous to player accounts and are using another companies intellectual property to make money. That extra revenue should be going back into the game or at least the owners of it.

    Wouldnt that mean playing the AH is much more dangerous than botting?

     

    No because botting floods the AH with more items than would usually be seen, unless we're talking about a title without BoE items.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,665Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Gyrus

    No need to be disrespectful, not sure what you seek to gain in that.

    Also, the difference between gold selling and preorder packs is that 1, preorder money is going to the company making the game you're playing hopefully going back into the game. 2, preorder packs don't effect the in game economy like gold selling can.

    It's a selfish practice.

    It's interesting that the people against gold buying position against third party sellers, which isn't the subject of the thread, nor the only place to buy gold. That's the disconnect here. 

     

    Normally the only way to buy gold or whatever in game currency the game uses, in a game is through these 3rd party sellers, or RMT traders, the number of games that sell in game currency for real money is probably very small, i think games like Entropia Universe do, but i also consider them to be a bit 'dodgy' and little more than some kind of pyramid selling/gambling game, and hopefully the 'exception to the rule' as MMO companies generally don't like to destabilise their own games.image

     
    "Normally the only way to buy gold or whatever in game currency the game uses, in a game is through these 3rd party sellers"
     
    If it was 2008, I'd agree, but that simply isn't the case anymore. 

     Plenty of AAA MMOs sell items that players can sell to other players for in-game currency.

    Add to that, almost all F2P games sell currency for either buying items that can then be traded to other players for in-game currency or directly trading to others for in-game currency.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

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