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Gold Buyers : Losers or Not?

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  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    How you got it doesn't undermine how I choose to get it. It's a mentality issue.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Winning implies competition. When I play mmos I'm not competing do I could care less how you got the item nor do I care if you know how I got the item.

    Once someone brings up p2w=anything that cost money the conversation is pretty much over. There's no middle ground once you start thinking cosmetic items are winning in a game.

  • MurlockDanceMurlockDance Member Posts: 1,223
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Iselin

    A more interesting question would be... Other than the obvious security/safety issues, is there a difference between buying gold form a 3rd party or from the developer?

    Quite frankly, I don't think there is. So if you're going to pass judgement on the character of those who buy gold from 3rd parties, you have to apply the same criteria to those who do the same directly from developers in games like Rift for example, where you can buy items or just gold from the in-game cash shop.

    Also... some good points in this thread about the unnecessary drudgery of a grind to get the same gold in the game not being most people's idea of fun.

    It's not the same at all. For one thing, the former is cheating. There is no hedging around that. Some people don't mind being cheaters, but let's not pretend it is otherwise.

    The second difference is one of consistency and availability. The developer provides consistent universally available access. Gold sellers provide opportunistic access that depends on how much they can get that week. They aren't universally available as some players won't cheat and some players won't risk their accounts to bans or theft.

    Finally in a system where the developers don't provide access to rmt gold they set an intended balance of gold fonts and sinks. Botters/hackers/exploiters bypass the intended font rate and imbalance the amount of resources.

    Fundamentally there isn't a theoretical difference in the concept of providing access to accelerated progression or resources, but the implementation is worlds apart as is the effect.

    So you're basically saying that P2W by developer design is acceptable but P2W by 3rd party sales is not. The only difference I see is that one is gated by the willingness to take risks purchasing from unknowns and having the means to afford it and the other one is gated by just the means to afford it.

    They're both cheating. The fact that one is encouraged by developers because they profit and the other one is demonized because they don't is just a thin and hypocritical rationalization.

    They're both shortcuts to achieving what should be solely a gameplay objective and they both undermine the game system and mechanics.

    This is littered with assumptions and statements that are flat out false. 

    "So you're basically saying that P2W by developer design is acceptable but P2W by 3rd party sales is not."

    You're assuming that the gold is for the purpose of 'winning' or gaining an advantage. You are assuming the items being bought are for that purpose. P2W and its related talking points are a whole other topic. 

    "They're both cheating."

    This is a mental block on your part, and to engage in any meaningful discussion, you will need to get past it. If it's the intended behavior and supported by the rules of the game, it isn't cheating. 

    "They're both shortcuts to achieving what should be solely a gameplay objective..."

    According to...? If the game is designed with this as a coded mechanic, then the game is designed to support and facilitate it. It is, in and of itself, one of many gameplay objectives. 

    "...they both undermine the game system and mechanics."

    If the game was designed poorly, then yes, the something like GW2's gems or SOE's Krono can undermine other game mechanics. ANY poorly designed mechanic can undermine the rest of the game mechanics. 

     

     

    If purchasing gold isn't a means to "winning" then what is it for? You must be thinking of only one type of 'win" when there are many: owning a desirable mount, costume or item is just as much winning to some people as gearing up to end-game levels to be more powerful in PVE raids or in PVP is to others. Do you suppose people buy gold from the developer or a 3rd party just to have it and not spend it?

     

    And there is a lot of theory in your post with a couple of negative examples... so where are the positives from games with cash shops that are designed well in a way that the cash shop doesn't undermine the game play required to get the same item or gold?

     

    It IS a P2W issue....one type sanctioned by the developers because they profit and one that isn't because they don't.

     

    Buying gold is just buying gold no matter who you buy it from.

    That is not what "pay to win" means to me. The way I have always heard it used (until recently) is for purchasing powerful items and buffs in a cash shop that allows for players to win pretty much all the time in PvP over those who don't pay for those things.

    I don't agree with you. Going back to EVE, back when I last played a PLEX cost around 300 mil ISK. That could get me roughly 3 well-equipped Dominixes. However, I could still quite easily lose those three Dominixes in PvP so that to me is most definitely not a pay to win situation.

    And no, getting a mount that you really want via this method is not pay to win. Besides, I thought that in most games these days the really desirable ingame stuff is BoP/linked to account.

    Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

    image
  • seafirexseafirex Member UncommonPosts: 419

    Loser's in my book is what they are. There is no excuse at all for that behavior. If you can't find time to play for any reason what so ever. That again is your life not anyone else. Just review your priority.

    If you are a loser at games, that is your problem. But by buying gold from others in-game, you are actually telling people you want to cheat them and steal from them.

    Why? easy to understand for anyone : You buy gold from the same people that bot's in game and/or hacks other people accounts, etc. That means you are helping the botters and hackers that steal from the good paying customers. The same people you play with and that you dare call your friends and familly in game and in real life.

    Gold buyer and seller, botters, hackers are the trash of humanity but inside games.

     

    FYI : At the end of the day, remember that if anyone you know got hacked at point and lost a lot, it could be a friend or familly member, when you buy that gold or items in game from those kind of people you are actually telling them thank you for doing this to my friends or familly members and keep up the good work and also you just justified why it is profitable for them to keep it up.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    Originally posted by TangentPoint
    Originally posted by Gyrus
    Originally posted by inemosz

    .... Why would anyone buy gold if they can gather it themselves and actually have fun while doing that?

    ....

    What do you think?

    That's the point right there - if players would rather pay money rather than collect the gold themselves - or pay someone else to level up their characters (power leveling services) then that suggests these activities are not 'fun'.

    That's a game design problem.

    100% disagree.

    It's not a "design problem".

    It's a "no game is designed for everyone, and that's okay" situation. 

    Going by your logic, it would be like going to a restaurant, voluntarily trying some new dish you've never tried before, then blaming it on "a lousy chef" when you don't like it - even though many around you are enjoying it just fine.

    "I don't enjoy this activity I'm voluntarily participating in" is not an excuse to cheat or bypass it. It's reason to reconsider your choice of activity and find something else you would enjoy... even if that means finding another game entirely.

    To say it's a "game design problem" because a game, or some activity, happens to not be designed specifically " for you" is pure ego-centric, self-entitled nonsense. It's indicative of someone in need of a reality check, to realize there's a whole wide world beyond their own nose, and they aren't at the center of it.

    Especially when others around "you" are participating in the same activities and enjoying it just fine.

     

    Here's a much better analogy.  Modern day, real life theme parks (aka Sea World, Disney, Six Flags) all charge a standard price to get into the park, which gives you access to most of the attractions, much like a MMORPG does.

    However, there is a grind to it, you have to wait in long lines to ride the attractions, sometimes up to several hours, which sucks and is no fun.

    Or., you can pay extra (sometimes much extra)  for a fast pass, which gives you access to step past everyone else and cut down your wait times to a very short interval.  I sort of smirk at the folks standing in the slow lane as I barge past them. (same is true in airports now, I can buy preferred boarding access and even pay extra for better seats up front)

    So while I would not advise buying Fast Passes or better airline seats from a shady 3rd party, buying this access from the primary seller I have no problem with.

     

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by TangentPoint
    Originally posted by Gyrus
    Originally posted by inemosz

    .... Why would anyone buy gold if they can gather it themselves and actually have fun while doing that?

    ....

    What do you think?

    That's the point right there - if players would rather pay money rather than collect the gold themselves - or pay someone else to level up their characters (power leveling services) then that suggests these activities are not 'fun'.

    That's a game design problem.

    100% disagree.

    It's not a "design problem".

    It's a "no game is designed for everyone, and that's okay" situation. 

    Going by your logic, it would be like going to a restaurant, voluntarily trying some new dish you've never tried before, then blaming it on "a lousy chef" when you don't like it - even though many around you are enjoying it just fine.

    "I don't enjoy this activity I'm voluntarily participating in" is not an excuse to cheat or bypass it. It's reason to reconsider your choice of activity and find something else you would enjoy... even if that means finding another game entirely.

    To say it's a "game design problem" because a game, or some activity, happens to not be designed specifically " for you" is pure ego-centric, self-entitled nonsense. It's indicative of someone in need of a reality check, to realize there's a whole wide world beyond their own nose, and they aren't at the center of it.

    Especially when others around "you" are participating in the same activities and enjoying it just fine.

     

    Here's a much better analogy.  Modern day, real life theme parks (aka Sea World, Disney, Six Flags) all charge a standard price to get into the park, which gives you access to most of the attractions, much like a MMORPG does.

    However, there is a grind to it, you have to wait in long lines to ride the attractions, sometimes up to several hours, which sucks and is no fun.

    Or., you can pay extra (sometimes much extra)  for a fast pass, which gives you access to step past everyone else and cut down your wait times to a very short interval.  I sort of smirk at the folks standing in the slow lane as I barge past them. (same is true in airports now, I can buy preferred boarding access and even pay extra for better seats up front)

    So while I would not advise buying Fast Passes or better airline seats from a shady 3rd party, buying this access from the primary seller I have no problem with.

     

    ...and then there are all the people who now have to stand in line that much longer because some have bought queue jumping passes... you don't see a problem with that?

    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • KiljaedenasKiljaedenas Member Posts: 468

    A tiny amount here or there isn't that big of a deal, but for those that dump massive amounts of money into the game (I've seen some players dump hundreds a month into them)...every single time I've seen these guys they're the definition of "losers". Part of playing a game like an MMO is to develop the strategies and tactics needed to be good at the game within its defined rules, but in the games where gold buying is allowed in large quantities (and botting, high level character trading etc)...the people that do the large scale purchases just want an "I win" button to make them feel powerful and special without putting any actual effort into getting powerful and special. They buy their stuff to look and feel cool, which is bad enough...but then the profound majority of them also trash talk, and brag, and belittle others that haven't done the same, and exclude others in group events that haven't done the same, and and and...it just goes on.

    In a game that I'm trying to do well in but fully playing by the rules set out by the developer, I have absolutely zero respect for someone who dumps money into it to skip the buildup because "I don't wanna!".

    Where's the any key?

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    3 months ago I bought 3 kronos in eq. Then they sold for 400k each. I still have 1. 1 million plat. More than I can ever use. Some just have a lot if coin
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Originally posted by MurlockDance
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Iselin

    A more interesting question would be... Other than the obvious security/safety issues, is there a difference between buying gold form a 3rd party or from the developer?

    Quite frankly, I don't think there is. So if you're going to pass judgement on the character of those who buy gold from 3rd parties, you have to apply the same criteria to those who do the same directly from developers in games like Rift for example, where you can buy items or just gold from the in-game cash shop.

    Also... some good points in this thread about the unnecessary drudgery of a grind to get the same gold in the game not being most people's idea of fun.

    It's not the same at all. For one thing, the former is cheating. There is no hedging around that. Some people don't mind being cheaters, but let's not pretend it is otherwise.

    The second difference is one of consistency and availability. The developer provides consistent universally available access. Gold sellers provide opportunistic access that depends on how much they can get that week. They aren't universally available as some players won't cheat and some players won't risk their accounts to bans or theft.

    Finally in a system where the developers don't provide access to rmt gold they set an intended balance of gold fonts and sinks. Botters/hackers/exploiters bypass the intended font rate and imbalance the amount of resources.

    Fundamentally there isn't a theoretical difference in the concept of providing access to accelerated progression or resources, but the implementation is worlds apart as is the effect.

    So you're basically saying that P2W by developer design is acceptable but P2W by 3rd party sales is not. The only difference I see is that one is gated by the willingness to take risks purchasing from unknowns and having the means to afford it and the other one is gated by just the means to afford it.

    They're both cheating. The fact that one is encouraged by developers because they profit and the other one is demonized because they don't is just a thin and hypocritical rationalization.

    They're both shortcuts to achieving what should be solely a gameplay objective and they both undermine the game system and mechanics.

    This is littered with assumptions and statements that are flat out false. 

    "So you're basically saying that P2W by developer design is acceptable but P2W by 3rd party sales is not."

    You're assuming that the gold is for the purpose of 'winning' or gaining an advantage. You are assuming the items being bought are for that purpose. P2W and its related talking points are a whole other topic. 

    "They're both cheating."

    This is a mental block on your part, and to engage in any meaningful discussion, you will need to get past it. If it's the intended behavior and supported by the rules of the game, it isn't cheating. 

    "They're both shortcuts to achieving what should be solely a gameplay objective..."

    According to...? If the game is designed with this as a coded mechanic, then the game is designed to support and facilitate it. It is, in and of itself, one of many gameplay objectives. 

    "...they both undermine the game system and mechanics."

    If the game was designed poorly, then yes, the something like GW2's gems or SOE's Krono can undermine other game mechanics. ANY poorly designed mechanic can undermine the rest of the game mechanics. 

     

     

    If purchasing gold isn't a means to "winning" then what is it for? You must be thinking of only one type of 'win" when there are many: owning a desirable mount, costume or item is just as much winning to some people as gearing up to end-game levels to be more powerful in PVE raids or in PVP is to others. Do you suppose people buy gold from the developer or a 3rd party just to have it and not spend it?

     

    And there is a lot of theory in your post with a couple of negative examples... so where are the positives from games with cash shops that are designed well in a way that the cash shop doesn't undermine the game play required to get the same item or gold?

     

    It IS a P2W issue....one type sanctioned by the developers because they profit and one that isn't because they don't.

     

    Buying gold is just buying gold no matter who you buy it from.

    That is not what "pay to win" means to me. The way I have always heard it used (until recently) is for purchasing powerful items and buffs in a cash shop that allows for players to win pretty much all the time in PvP over those who don't pay for those things.

    I don't agree with you. Going back to EVE, back when I last played a PLEX cost around 300 mil ISK. That could get me roughly 3 well-equipped Dominixes. However, I could still quite easily lose those three Dominixes in PvP so that to me is most definitely not a pay to win situation.

    And no, getting a mount that you really want via this method is not pay to win. Besides, I thought that in most games these days the really desirable ingame stuff is BoP/linked to account.

    I didn't invent the definitions of "win".... and there are many.

     

    win

     verb (used without object), won, win·ning.

    1. to finish first in a race, contest, or the like.

    2. to succeed by striving or effort: He applied for a scholarship and won.

    3. to gain the victory; overcome an adversary: The home team won.

    4. Slang. to be successful or competent and be acknowledged for it: My sister wins at getting the biggestbargains.  Compare fail (  def 9 ) .

    verb (used with object), won, win·ning.

    5. to succeed in reaching (a place, condition, etc.), especially by great effort: They won the shore through a violent storm.

    6. to get by effort, as through labor, competition, or conquest: He won his post after years of striving.

    7. to gain (a prize, fame, etc.).

    8. to be successful in (a game, battle, etc.).

    9. to make (one's way), as by effort or ability.

     

    In your previous EVE example, you paid to have the ability to participate in an event that you could not have otherwise participated in due to the time required to build up your fleet by simply playing the game. You took a short-cut made available by the developers to those who are wiling and able to pay for it. 
     
    By paying you "won" the ability to participate in the event.
     
     
     
    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd Member Posts: 1,123
    Originally posted by Kyleran

     

    Here's a much better analogy.  Modern day, real life theme parks (aka Sea World, Disney, Six Flags) all charge a standard price to get into the park, which gives you access to most of the attractions, much like a MMORPG does.

    However, there is a grind to it, you have to wait in long lines to ride the attractions, sometimes up to several hours, which sucks and is no fun.

    Or., you can pay extra (sometimes much extra)  for a fast pass, which gives you access to step past everyone else and cut down your wait times to a very short interval.  I sort of smirk at the folks standing in the slow lane as I barge past them. (same is true in airports now, I can buy preferred boarding access and even pay extra for better seats up front)

    So while I would not advise buying Fast Passes or better airline seats from a shady 3rd party, buying this access from the primary seller I have no problem with.

     

    I like the analogy but not for the reasons you might think. You see I would never cut the line by paying extra for a few reasons.

    Firstly, I have respect for other people and so cutting ahead is unfair to them and very disrespectful. It essentially means you look down on them enough to make their wait even longer rather then respecting them enough to just get in line and wait your turn.

    Secondly is shows that you have the opinion that having more money then another person somehow makes you a better person. You smirk at them, barge past them and pay extra to get 'what you deserve' because you have no respect for other people.

    Thirdly, waiting in line at these types of attractions allows you the time to interact with your friends and others in the queue. Something someone with poor social skills or few friends may not appreciate and those who think paying for the opportunity to bypass such activities is probably oblivious to.

    The same reasons above apply to online social games, including doing so for lack of time. People who think it is acceptable to go to a themepark and jump on all the rides as quick as possible to head home and brag about how many rides they went on is, like in an MMO, missing the point entirely. If you don't have the day to spend at the park I suggest you wait till a day is available where you can or you simply find an activity that fits your timescale.

  • delta9delta9 Member UncommonPosts: 358

    Players as a whole will always find ways in which they find acceptable to cut corners - for some it will be by buying gold, for others it will be skipping mobs which aren't meant to be skipped, others it will be building the OP / FOTM and rerolling every time that switches, for others it will be going onto "guide sites" to quickly down a boss instead of learning it themselves.

    Simple fact of matter is its in peoples nature to cut corners - some find any way acceptable, some only find their chosen way acceptable - but everyone at some point will of cut a corner in their gaming that was not as intended by the devs.

    So many devs sell gold now in many ways, be it via a cash shop supplying ingame tradeable items, to game time and a whole host of in between.

    Personally, I used to be against gold selling, but now its just an accepted part of gaming and often supported by the company itself and it is just a corner to cut which isnt one I choose to use so its for those reasons I can't call them a loser for it when there are corners which I too also cut and find acceptable, they just arent, for me,  in buying gold

  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,739
    I've despised gold sellers and buyrs sncne the first day I saw them in EQ many, many years ago, and I continue to do so to this day.....Iv'e seen them ruin many an economy and community of every game I ahve playee taht had them.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by MurlockDance
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Iselin

    A more interesting question would be... Other than the obvious security/safety issues, is there a difference between buying gold form a 3rd party or from the developer?

    Quite frankly, I don't think there is. So if you're going to pass judgement on the character of those who buy gold from 3rd parties, you have to apply the same criteria to those who do the same directly from developers in games like Rift for example, where you can buy items or just gold from the in-game cash shop.

    Also... some good points in this thread about the unnecessary drudgery of a grind to get the same gold in the game not being most people's idea of fun.

    It's not the same at all. For one thing, the former is cheating. There is no hedging around that. Some people don't mind being cheaters, but let's not pretend it is otherwise.

    The second difference is one of consistency and availability. The developer provides consistent universally available access. Gold sellers provide opportunistic access that depends on how much they can get that week. They aren't universally available as some players won't cheat and some players won't risk their accounts to bans or theft.

    Finally in a system where the developers don't provide access to rmt gold they set an intended balance of gold fonts and sinks. Botters/hackers/exploiters bypass the intended font rate and imbalance the amount of resources.

    Fundamentally there isn't a theoretical difference in the concept of providing access to accelerated progression or resources, but the implementation is worlds apart as is the effect.

    So you're basically saying that P2W by developer design is acceptable but P2W by 3rd party sales is not. The only difference I see is that one is gated by the willingness to take risks purchasing from unknowns and having the means to afford it and the other one is gated by just the means to afford it.

    They're both cheating. The fact that one is encouraged by developers because they profit and the other one is demonized because they don't is just a thin and hypocritical rationalization.

    They're both shortcuts to achieving what should be solely a gameplay objective and they both undermine the game system and mechanics.

    This is littered with assumptions and statements that are flat out false. 

    "So you're basically saying that P2W by developer design is acceptable but P2W by 3rd party sales is not."

    You're assuming that the gold is for the purpose of 'winning' or gaining an advantage. You are assuming the items being bought are for that purpose. P2W and its related talking points are a whole other topic. 

    "They're both cheating."

    This is a mental block on your part, and to engage in any meaningful discussion, you will need to get past it. If it's the intended behavior and supported by the rules of the game, it isn't cheating. 

    "They're both shortcuts to achieving what should be solely a gameplay objective..."

    According to...? If the game is designed with this as a coded mechanic, then the game is designed to support and facilitate it. It is, in and of itself, one of many gameplay objectives. 

    "...they both undermine the game system and mechanics."

    If the game was designed poorly, then yes, the something like GW2's gems or SOE's Krono can undermine other game mechanics. ANY poorly designed mechanic can undermine the rest of the game mechanics. 

     

     

    If purchasing gold isn't a means to "winning" then what is it for? You must be thinking of only one type of 'win" when there are many: owning a desirable mount, costume or item is just as much winning to some people as gearing up to end-game levels to be more powerful in PVE raids or in PVP is to others. Do you suppose people buy gold from the developer or a 3rd party just to have it and not spend it?

     

    And there is a lot of theory in your post with a couple of negative examples... so where are the positives from games with cash shops that are designed well in a way that the cash shop doesn't undermine the game play required to get the same item or gold?

     

    It IS a P2W issue....one type sanctioned by the developers because they profit and one that isn't because they don't.

     

    Buying gold is just buying gold no matter who you buy it from.

    That is not what "pay to win" means to me. The way I have always heard it used (until recently) is for purchasing powerful items and buffs in a cash shop that allows for players to win pretty much all the time in PvP over those who don't pay for those things.

    I don't agree with you. Going back to EVE, back when I last played a PLEX cost around 300 mil ISK. That could get me roughly 3 well-equipped Dominixes. However, I could still quite easily lose those three Dominixes in PvP so that to me is most definitely not a pay to win situation.

    And no, getting a mount that you really want via this method is not pay to win. Besides, I thought that in most games these days the really desirable ingame stuff is BoP/linked to account.

    I didn't invent the definitions of "win".... and there are many.

     

    win

     verb (used without object), won, win·ning.

    1. to finish first in a race, contest, or the like.

    2. to succeed by striving or effort: He applied for a scholarship and won.

    3. to gain the victory; overcome an adversary: The home team won.

    4. Slang. to be successful or competent and be acknowledged for it: My sister wins at getting the biggestbargains.  Compare fail (  def 9 ) .

    verb (used with object), won, win·ning.

    5. to succeed in reaching (a place, condition, etc.), especially by great effort: They won the shore through a violent storm.

    6. to get by effort, as through labor, competition, or conquest: He won his post after years of striving.

    7. to gain (a prize, fame, etc.).

    8. to be successful in (a game, battle, etc.).

    9. to make (one's way), as by effort or ability.

     

    In your previous EVE example, you paid to have the ability to participate in an event that you could not have otherwise participated in due to the time required to build up your fleet by simply playing the game. You took a short-cut made available by the developers to those who are wiling and able to pay for it. 
     
    By paying you "won" the ability to participate in the event.
     
     
     

    Are you missing his point or (poorly) dodging it? Either way, you've effectively derailed this thread to yet another pay to win tirade, so I guess we're done here. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by Kyleran

     

    Here's a much better analogy.  Modern day, real life theme parks (aka Sea World, Disney, Six Flags) all charge a standard price to get into the park, which gives you access to most of the attractions, much like a MMORPG does.

    However, there is a grind to it, you have to wait in long lines to ride the attractions, sometimes up to several hours, which sucks and is no fun.

    Or., you can pay extra (sometimes much extra)  for a fast pass, which gives you access to step past everyone else and cut down your wait times to a very short interval.  I sort of smirk at the folks standing in the slow lane as I barge past them. (same is true in airports now, I can buy preferred boarding access and even pay extra for better seats up front)

    So while I would not advise buying Fast Passes or better airline seats from a shady 3rd party, buying this access from the primary seller I have no problem with.

     

    I like the analogy but not for the reasons you might think. You see I would never cut the line by paying extra for a few reasons.

    Firstly, I have respect for other people and so cutting ahead is unfair to them and very disrespectful. It essentially means you look down on them enough to make their wait even longer rather then respecting them enough to just get in line and wait your turn.  Yes, true, every man for himself in a theme park, not concerned with the experience of others, they could pay extra for it just as I did.

    Secondly is shows that you have the opinion that having more money then another person somehow makes you a better person. You smirk at them, barge past them and pay extra to get 'what you deserve' because you have no respect for other people.  Well, yes, I work long hours, and sacrifice much time that I could spend gaming or with my family in order to make a fair amount of money, I chose to spend it as I please.  Other people are competition in many factors of life, if they aren't on my "team", then no, not too concerned about them. 

    Thirdly, waiting in line at these types of attractions allows you the time to interact with your friends and others in the queue. Something someone with poor social skills or few friends may not appreciate and those who think paying for the opportunity to bypass such activities is probably oblivious to.

    I've never viewed killing 2 hours in line for Space mountain with 3 children in toe as quality time, i'd rather get through the ride line and sit in a nearby cafe eating an icecream in air conditioning while we interact.

    The same reasons above apply to online social games, including doing so for lack of time. People who think it is acceptable to go to a themepark and jump on all the rides as quick as possible to head home and brag about how many rides they went on is, like in an MMO, missing the point entirely. If you don't have the day to spend at the park I suggest you wait till a day is available where you can or you simply find an activity that fits your timescale.

    You are just talking nonsense.  I recall going to Six Flags Magic Mountain, bought fast passes for all my children (they were older now) and they managed to ride every ride in the park that they were interested in, some of them twice.  Had they waited their turn, they would have only hit about 1/2 of the rides before the park closed.

    Time is a valuable commodity (perhaps the most valuable) and not to be wasted, true in life, true in gaming.

     

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    on the other hand...

     

    gold selling fits with F2P.

     

    pay for convenience...goldbuy for convenience...bot for convenience...hack for convenience...why not.

     

    we should allow gold-sellers to enter an undercutting race with F2P developers. That should spice things up a bit.

    They already do. I was surprised when I played Rift for a few months last year that I was getting gold spam emails despite the fact that Trion sells gold too, From what I recall their advertised prices were substantially cheaper too.... which of course, they'd have to be to overcome most player's reluctance to do business with a dodgy stranger.

     

    "Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”

    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • MaelwyddMaelwydd Member Posts: 1,123
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by Kyleran

     

    Here's a much better analogy.  Modern day, real life theme parks (aka Sea World, Disney, Six Flags) all charge a standard price to get into the park, which gives you access to most of the attractions, much like a MMORPG does.

    However, there is a grind to it, you have to wait in long lines to ride the attractions, sometimes up to several hours, which sucks and is no fun.

    Or., you can pay extra (sometimes much extra)  for a fast pass, which gives you access to step past everyone else and cut down your wait times to a very short interval.  I sort of smirk at the folks standing in the slow lane as I barge past them. (same is true in airports now, I can buy preferred boarding access and even pay extra for better seats up front)

    So while I would not advise buying Fast Passes or better airline seats from a shady 3rd party, buying this access from the primary seller I have no problem with.

     

    I like the analogy but not for the reasons you might think. You see I would never cut the line by paying extra for a few reasons.

    Firstly, I have respect for other people and so cutting ahead is unfair to them and very disrespectful. It essentially means you look down on them enough to make their wait even longer rather then respecting them enough to just get in line and wait your turn.  Yes, true, every man for himself in a theme park, not concerned with the experience of others, they could pay extra for it just as I did.

    Secondly is shows that you have the opinion that having more money then another person somehow makes you a better person. You smirk at them, barge past them and pay extra to get 'what you deserve' because you have no respect for other people.  Well, yes, I work long hours, and sacrifice much time that I could spend gaming or with my family in order to make a fair amount of money, I chose to spend it as I please.  Other people are competition in many factors of life, if they aren't on my "team", then no, not too concerned about them. 

    Thirdly, waiting in line at these types of attractions allows you the time to interact with your friends and others in the queue. Something someone with poor social skills or few friends may not appreciate and those who think paying for the opportunity to bypass such activities is probably oblivious to.

    I've never viewed killing 2 hours in line for Space mountain with 3 children in toe as quality time, i'd rather get through the ride line and sit in a nearby cafe eating an icecream in air conditioning while we interact.

    The same reasons above apply to online social games, including doing so for lack of time. People who think it is acceptable to go to a themepark and jump on all the rides as quick as possible to head home and brag about how many rides they went on is, like in an MMO, missing the point entirely. If you don't have the day to spend at the park I suggest you wait till a day is available where you can or you simply find an activity that fits your timescale.

    You are just talking nonsense.  I recall going to Six Flags Magic Mountain, bought fast passes for all my children (they were older now) and they managed to ride every ride in the park that they were interested in, some of them twice.  Had they waited their turn, they would have only hit about 1/2 of the rides before the park closed.

    Time is a valuable commodity (perhaps the most valuable) and not to be wasted, true in life, true in gaming.

     

    Yeah I see what type of person you are now.

  • fineflufffinefluff Member RarePosts: 561

    I don't like the idea of "convenience" in games. In real life convenience will improve the quality of living. But in games does it improve the quality of gameplay? Imo no and because so many resort to buying gold that means there is a flaw in the game design. Sometimes an intentional one.

  • TheDarkrayneTheDarkrayne Member EpicPosts: 5,297
    I don't consider grinding as 'playing' so.. those who choose to pay to avoid grinding are kind of sensible in my mind. I do not buy gold.. I never have but I can fully understand why some people would. Myself though.. If I ever feel like I need to pay my way out of boredom or tedium, I know it's time to stop playing that particular game.
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

     

    Are you missing his point or (poorly) dodging it? Either way, you've effectively derailed this thread to yet another pay to win tirade, so I guess we're done here. 

    Not to be that guy, but.....I told you so :P

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,183
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Originally posted by Kyleran

     

    Here's a much better analogy.  Modern day, real life theme parks (aka Sea World, Disney, Six Flags) all charge a standard price to get into the park, which gives you access to most of the attractions, much like a MMORPG does.

    However, there is a grind to it, you have to wait in long lines to ride the attractions, sometimes up to several hours, which sucks and is no fun.

    Or., you can pay extra (sometimes much extra)  for a fast pass, which gives you access to step past everyone else and cut down your wait times to a very short interval.  I sort of smirk at the folks standing in the slow lane as I barge past them. (same is true in airports now, I can buy preferred boarding access and even pay extra for better seats up front)

    So while I would not advise buying Fast Passes or better airline seats from a shady 3rd party, buying this access from the primary seller I have no problem with.

     

    I like the analogy but not for the reasons you might think. You see I would never cut the line by paying extra for a few reasons.

    Firstly, I have respect for other people and so cutting ahead is unfair to them and very disrespectful. It essentially means you look down on them enough to make their wait even longer rather then respecting them enough to just get in line and wait your turn.  Yes, true, every man for himself in a theme park, not concerned with the experience of others, they could pay extra for it just as I did.

    Secondly is shows that you have the opinion that having more money then another person somehow makes you a better person. You smirk at them, barge past them and pay extra to get 'what you deserve' because you have no respect for other people.  Well, yes, I work long hours, and sacrifice much time that I could spend gaming or with my family in order to make a fair amount of money, I chose to spend it as I please.  Other people are competition in many factors of life, if they aren't on my "team", then no, not too concerned about them. 

    Thirdly, waiting in line at these types of attractions allows you the time to interact with your friends and others in the queue. Something someone with poor social skills or few friends may not appreciate and those who think paying for the opportunity to bypass such activities is probably oblivious to.

    I've never viewed killing 2 hours in line for Space mountain with 3 children in toe as quality time, i'd rather get through the ride line and sit in a nearby cafe eating an icecream in air conditioning while we interact.

    The same reasons above apply to online social games, including doing so for lack of time. People who think it is acceptable to go to a themepark and jump on all the rides as quick as possible to head home and brag about how many rides they went on is, like in an MMO, missing the point entirely. If you don't have the day to spend at the park I suggest you wait till a day is available where you can or you simply find an activity that fits your timescale.

    You are just talking nonsense.  I recall going to Six Flags Magic Mountain, bought fast passes for all my children (they were older now) and they managed to ride every ride in the park that they were interested in, some of them twice.  Had they waited their turn, they would have only hit about 1/2 of the rides before the park closed.

    Time is a valuable commodity (perhaps the most valuable) and not to be wasted, true in life, true in gaming.

     

    Yeah I see what type of person you are now.

    Practical?

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    Normal? Places more value on activities with family than waiting in line ups with family.

    Sounds pretty well adjusted.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • KrematoryKrematory Member UncommonPosts: 608
    Losers who don't play by the rules. I say burn them!

    "EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran

  • HorusraHorusra Member EpicPosts: 4,411
    Originally posted by Krematory
    Losers who don't play by the rules. I say burn them!

    Cheat to win....join Team Evil.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

     

    Are you missing his point or (poorly) dodging it? Either way, you've effectively derailed this thread to yet another pay to win tirade, so I guess we're done here. 

    Not to be that guy, but.....I told you so :P

    Damn you. :) 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • GyrusGyrus Member UncommonPosts: 2,413
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Kyleran
    Originally posted by TangentPoint
    Originally posted by Gyrus
    Originally posted by inemosz

    .... Why would anyone buy gold if they can gather it themselves and actually have fun while doing that?

    ....

    What do you think?

    That's the point right there - if players would rather pay money rather than collect the gold themselves - or pay someone else to level up their characters (power leveling services) then that suggests these activities are not 'fun'.

    That's a game design problem.

    100% disagree.

    It's not a "design problem".

    It's a "no game is designed for everyone, and that's okay" situation. 

    Going by your logic, it would be like going to a restaurant, voluntarily trying some new dish you've never tried before, then blaming it on "a lousy chef" when you don't like it - even though many around you are enjoying it just fine.

    "I don't enjoy this activity I'm voluntarily participating in" is not an excuse to cheat or bypass it. It's reason to reconsider your choice of activity and find something else you would enjoy... even if that means finding another game entirely.

    To say it's a "game design problem" because a game, or some activity, happens to not be designed specifically " for you" is pure ego-centric, self-entitled nonsense. It's indicative of someone in need of a reality check, to realize there's a whole wide world beyond their own nose, and they aren't at the center of it.

    Especially when others around "you" are participating in the same activities and enjoying it just fine.

     

    Here's a much better analogy.  Modern day, real life theme parks (aka Sea World, Disney, Six Flags) all charge a standard price to get into the park, which gives you access to most of the attractions, much like a MMORPG does.

    However, there is a grind to it, you have to wait in long lines to ride the attractions, sometimes up to several hours, which sucks and is no fun.

    Or., you can pay extra (sometimes much extra)  for a fast pass, which gives you access to step past everyone else and cut down your wait times to a very short interval.  I sort of smirk at the folks standing in the slow lane as I barge past them. (same is true in airports now, I can buy preferred boarding access and even pay extra for better seats up front)

    So while I would not advise buying Fast Passes or better airline seats from a shady 3rd party, buying this access from the primary seller I have no problem with.

     

    ...and then there are all the people who now have to stand in line that much longer because some have bought queue jumping passes... you don't see a problem with that?

    Thanks, TangentPoint for an interesting reply.

    And thanks Kyleran for an interesting response.

    To use the restaurant analogy, I agree that if you don't like any of the dishes offered - you shouldn't eat there again.

    But what if you really like the dessert and coffee?  And what if the restaurant said - sorry you can only have dessert if you eat the main meal?  (and it has to be eaten not simply returned or scrapped into a plantpot?)  Because that's what Gold Buyers are saying.  I like this part - but hate having to do this part to get there.  I would rather pay someone else not to have to do that.  Now sure, if it's just one or two people, it's a reflection on the players, not the game.  But if it was just one or two people most players wouldn't notice and it wouldn't be an issue.

    Edit: At theme parks - when the queue for a ride gets too long... people avoid that ride.  Or they say "I will do something else and come back."  (sometimes they do, often they don't)  So the park operators have a choice... do nothing, offer premium ride passes(as explained), expand or build another ride.  In all cases (except do nothing) they have looked at the game design and modified it.  Their choice will decide the long term fortune of their park.

     

     @Iselin

    ...and then there are all the people who now have to stand in line that much longer because some have bought queue jumping passes... you don't see a problem with that?

    So, how do you feel about Pre-Orders and early access and head starts?  Same thing?

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

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