Not going to vote as I refuse to blanketly impune or pardon people I do not know. Regardless of what feelings people may hold about gold selling and gold buying, the real culprit is the gaming industry themselves for making long and tedious time and money sinks and unscrupulously presenting them as game play. When you make activities and goals artificially difficult and tedious people are going to find away around them. The gold buying community are simply cutting the Gordian Knot instead of settling for what they are given.
Now do I personally agree with this behavior? No I feel it's a massive waste of money on top of what was already paid for what was supposed to be entertainment. I feel the better behavior would be for these bored or annoyed players to stop rewarding companies for poor game mechanics and let them go bankrupt.
I definitely think they are Losers. The main reasons ppl say they buy gold is, "My time is too important to farm gold", which basically means, that that person has chosen the wrong hobby. Rather than realizing it, they support a group of people that not only hinder everyone else in the game, but also cause theft. It's really despicable, if these people were actually moral people, they would either play the game as it was intended or find something else to take up their time. Go game on consoles or something rather then ruining our games, thank you.
The other defense is, "Things are too expensive, which is the devs fault" which isn't true at all, that's the players fault. Once there is "unlimited gold" which is offered by gold sellers, well now the players can charge whatever they want on the AH and actually get it. It's complete nonsense and really has hindered the entire MMO industry, whether people agree with that assessment or not.
Personally I've moved to servers that have strict no RMT/botting rules and auto ban anyone that does it. Doesn't catch everyone, but keeps the server a hell of a lot cleaner than any other F2P games I have seen.
I definitely think they are Losers. The main reasons ppl say they buy gold is, "My time is too important to farm gold", which basically means, that that person has chosen the wrong hobby. Rather than realizing it, they support a group of people that not only hinder everyone else in the game, but also cause theft. It's really despicable, if these people were actually moral people, they would either play the game as it was intended or find something else to take up their time. Go game on consoles or something rather then ruining our games, thank you.
You're only looking at one half there. Do you feel the same about those that use GW2 gems or Wildstar CREDD?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I honestly have better things to do with my life than grind for 8 hours what I can get for 20m of RL effort.
The bitchers and moaners about gold sellers and how cash shops have pop'd up because of this type of behavior are just spitting out anecdotal nonsense. It's all about time management and efficiency for me.
You have the wrong hobby if you feel like it is work or you can equate time spent in game with time spent working.
That is most obviously the case when you talk about time management and efficiency when talking about a social past time/hobby.
My advice, donate to charity and get a new hobby that you can enjoy with the time you have available.
A more interesting question would be... Other than the obvious security/safety issues, is there a difference between buying gold form a 3rd party or from the developer?
Quite frankly, I don't think there is. So if you're going to pass judgement on the character of those who buy gold from 3rd parties, you have to apply the same criteria to those who do the same directly from developers in games like Rift for example, where you can buy items or just gold from the in-game cash shop.
Also... some good points in this thread about the unnecessary drudgery of a grind to get the same gold in the game not being most people's idea of fun.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Not going to vote as I refuse to blanketly impune or pardon people I do not know. Regardless of what feelings people may hold about gold selling and gold buying, the real culprit is the gaming industry themselves for making long and tedious time and money sinks and unscrupulously presenting them as game play. When you make activities and goals artificially difficult and tedious people are going to find away around them. The gold buying community are simply cutting the Gordian Knot instead of settling for what they are given.
Finally, someone that has thought about this. It has been going on since the first game that used gold like the games now do. And will continue as long as the dev's make games the same way.
They then act all hurt and surprised when the game gets gold farmers and spammers.P Bull.
Is and always has been a easy fix, 2 of them actually. First change game design so you do not have to farm it in the first place. And 2nd sell it themselves, regulate it, so they can get all the profit if they wish to make the same old game systems.
As above you put a problem/puzzle before people well guess what? They will find a way to deal with it themselves to make it easier and or profitable. Human nature. Do not try to fight it, just use it sensibly.
In vanilla WOW I suggested blizzard start their own gold exchange service. They shot me down on the official forms ignoring my idea. I'd go on to purchase gold all the time. Why ? I could afford it, and didn't waste my time grinding. I used the gold to make low level OP bg twinks.
The way they did it without being detected. You'd put 10 bandages on the auction house at 200g, or whatever items they suggested & they would buy the item transferring the money. If they ever wanted to send the cash directly via in game mail worked just as well. I did that too mutiple times and never got in trouble.
Guildwars 2 comes along and they did pretty much exactly what I suggested. You buy gems in via their trading company with real money and convert those gems to in game gold. Cutting out gold farmers entirely. Sure they still try to sell gold but whats the point really.
Your poll is a waste of time because someone who wants to buy gold will do so without giving a sh-- what other people think. They do it because they can afford it.
I definitely think they are Losers. The main reasons ppl say they buy gold is, "My time is too important to farm gold", which basically means, that that person has chosen the wrong hobby. Rather than realizing it, they support a group of people that not only hinder everyone else in the game, but also cause theft. It's really despicable, if these people were actually moral people, they would either play the game as it was intended or find something else to take up their time. Go game on consoles or something rather then ruining our games, thank you.
You're only looking at one half there. Do you feel the same about those that use GW2 gems or Wildstar CREDD?
Can't speak for others (or about Wildstar as I have only played 4 hours of it an uninstalled) but when I was playing GW2 I really hated the gem system, same for Neverwinter. (I guess that is why I do not play either anymore).
My dislike of allowing external interference (excluding the players control of course) is essentially the same argument against metagaming when trying to engage in Roleplaying. Just because you the player know something, you should try to roleplay your character without the knowledge. I find it hard justifying how my character suddenly got 10,000 gold suddenly in his bank...Gods exist (in game) but holy fuck!
To me it is like trying to play Chess with someone who every now and then adds another Queen to the board. Invalidates the point of playing and the point of continuing and sooner or later I just get to a point of not caring to play any more..
Originally posted by Horusra External interference is aways there from internet speeds, rigs, addons, mouse you use...
I specified it didn't include player control.
To simplify my point. Anything that doesn't make sense being in the game world. So gold suddenly appearing in a bank account (due to external influences) or knowing the specific weakness of a Boss by looking it up on the internet (which the character still doesn't know).
Not sure if you understand what metagaiming is but there you go...
Originally posted by loopback1199 These days, I'm beginning to doubt that gold sellers are even third party anymore. Likely, with the unlimited amounts of gold offered up for sale on some of these sites, the company itself is using it as another outlet to rape you of your hard earned cash. If they're not, then their investors and financial officers have utterly failed to corner such a sound business model.
Ehh im not really sure. I use to sell gold in WoW. Just by myself I could make around 300k gold to these companies which sells for about $210. Not that hard to get either.
I knew a few people from my eve online days that used to sell isk to 3rd party companies. They were making an extra 2k a month doing it. I thought it was wrong but they believed its only pixels on the screen and people that get mad over it are the losers. But i will say this..For all the talk over the years of this killing games or even shutting them down hasn't happened to one game yet. I think its because these game companies pull in enough money to look the other way most of the time. Sure they will ban some accounts but it has no real effect. It just shows that they are trying is all. Gold selling and buying is just another part of the genre. The choice to do it is and always will be up to the player. And i'm willing to bet more people do it than you think or these companies would go out of bussiness. It will never go away. And i didn't bother to vote on the subject. Its been part of the mmo genre since the very first game.
I'm sorry but I can't stand them in my mmo period. Finding goldseller spam in my characters mailbox, splattered messages to buy their cr@p in chat screens, personal group invites or whispers from these cretin are not a welcome sight as far as I'm concerned. If they could be simply ignored one time it would be just a minor annoyance but you block one & here comes another and so on. Like 99% of the advertisements on tv or websites I will never care about let alone support the gold spammer can be assured I don't want him in my game.
Just knowing someone will fall for their sales pitch promising the easy way to success is sad especially since most buyers will find they were scammed by losing their accounts to "hackers". Your gold purchase encourages sellers to get more gold and the easiest way to do that is to steal it from players so let the buyers beware it's not only their account being placed in jeopardy but your friends & guild mates as well.
I never understood it since we pay monthly subscription fees to adventure & level up why pay someone else to do it for you. Pure laziness & definitely not something I believe should be allowed to thrive in any shape or form. Removing the sellers reduces the temptation to run for the shiny loot so yes I voted LOSERS!
Not just those games. Eq2 and eq you can buy k err kronor for err rl money and sell it to players for in game plat. Not sure if it still does but wow used tohave items and cards that could be bought for rl money and sold on the auction house.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
A more interesting question would be... Other than the obvious security/safety issues, is there a difference between buying gold form a 3rd party or from the developer?
Quite frankly, I don't think there is. So if you're going to pass judgement on the character of those who buy gold from 3rd parties, you have to apply the same criteria to those who do the same directly from developers in games like Rift for example, where you can buy items or just gold from the in-game cash shop.
Also... some good points in this thread about the unnecessary drudgery of a grind to get the same gold in the game not being most people's idea of fun.
It's not the same at all. For one thing, the former is cheating. There is no hedging around that. Some people don't mind being cheaters, but let's not pretend it is otherwise.
The second difference is one of consistency and availability. The developer provides consistent universally available access. Gold sellers provide opportunistic access that depends on how much they can get that week. They aren't universally available as some players won't cheat and some players won't risk their accounts to bans or theft.
Finally in a system where the developers don't provide access to rmt gold they set an intended balance of gold fonts and sinks. Botters/hackers/exploiters bypass the intended font rate and imbalance the amount of resources.
Fundamentally there isn't a theoretical difference in the concept of providing access to accelerated progression or resources, but the implementation is worlds apart as is the effect.
So you're basically saying that P2W by developer design is acceptable but P2W by 3rd party sales is not. The only difference I see is that one is gated by the willingness to take risks purchasing from unknowns and having the means to afford it and the other one is gated by just the means to afford it.
They're both cheating. The fact that one is encouraged by developers because they profit and the other one is demonized because they don't is just a thin and hypocritical rationalization.
They're both shortcuts to achieving what should be solely a gameplay objective and they both undermine the game system and mechanics.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Yes, having money means you've done something valuable with your life, but it won't earn you a better jump shot or higher chess rating will it? MMOs should work the same way.
.... Why would anyone buy gold if they can gather it themselves and actually have fun while doing that?
....
What do you think?
That's the point right there - if players would rather pay money rather than collect the gold themselves - or pay someone else to level up their characters (power leveling services) then that suggests these activities are not 'fun'.
That's a game design problem.
100% disagree.
It's not a "design problem".
It's a "no game is designed for everyone, and that's okay" situation.
Going by your logic, it would be like going to a restaurant, voluntarily trying some new dish you've never tried before, then blaming it on "a lousy chef" when you don't like it - even though many around you are enjoying it just fine.
"I don't enjoy this activity I'm voluntarily participating in" is not an excuse to cheat or bypass it. It's reason to reconsider your choice of activity and find something else you would enjoy... even if that means finding another game entirely.
To say it's a "game design problem" because a game, or some activity, happens to not be designed specifically " for you" is pure ego-centric, self-entitled nonsense. It's indicative of someone in need of a reality check, to realize there's a whole wide world beyond their own nose, and they aren't at the center of it.
Especially when others around "you" are participating in the same activities and enjoying it just fine.
People buy gold because it's not fun to find the gold themselves. Every single mmo, AAA mmo particularly, have gold sellers and buyers. So there is no decent mmo around?
People buy gold because there are things in the MMO they desire enough to spend real money for. If the game wasn't perceived as "decent" by those that buy the gold, they wouldn't be investing more money in it. They would invest less (i.e. LEAVE).
When you go to a sports game, do you buy a jersey because you're bored and not having fun? When you go to a concert, do you buy the shirt to help you enjoy the music more?
Don't you do those things because you are already enjoying it to the point of being willing to spend extra on it?
If you really do want to figure out if people are "losers or not" for how they chose to pay for their entertainment, it seems the first thing you need to do is ditch the illogical rationalizations you've created to villainize, insult or berate them for doing what they do. The whole 'bypass the content' talking point is getting old, but you guys seem to love that one, so I guess it's not going away anytime soon, no matter how ridiculous it is.
This is a very good point, but I don't think it addresses a core flaw in the gold seller/buyer "problem". Like Damonville said above your post, it's not so much the buying of the gold or gear, but how those sources acquire and produce it.
Developers have a set system of gold fountains and sinks. The intention is to try and balance how much enters and leaves the game. This can be perverted by people running bots and hacks to accelerate or circumvent the system. Not everyone who does this has to be a gold seller, but all gold sellers employ these methods and it is bad for the game.
Gold buyers aren't inherently bad, but they are supporting the adverse influx of gold into the game and are cheating the system and other players who must acquire that gain at a slower rate if they play legitimately. In games where there is explicit competition for resources and pvp that sort of easily obtained power can cause an imbalance. Even in themeparks with more tightly regulated progression it can still accelerate a player or guild over the rest.
This is one reason I generally prefer cash shops and built in cash to game currency exchanges. It allows the developer to influence and monitor the system. It encourages people to use safer methods to accelerate and provides an open system for all.
I am in no way advocating buying from 3rd party sellers, so you don't need to sell me on the adverse effects they have on an MMO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think we need to separate this into two kinds of RMT: the legit and the not legit.
The legit one is done by the company or some form of accredited (by the company) entity. An example would be PLEX in EVE. I think that is fine. There is no proof that it ruins the ingame economy and it does not spur on the kinds of negative things we have seen in games of late that are already described in this thread and elsewhere. People who ingage in this sort of gold buying are not losers in my opinion and since usually a cut of the money goes to the company you are just further supporting the game that you love.
Those who go through the shady entities like third party traders with dubious pasts ARE losers though. The botters and goldspammers ruin my game experience. If it is one lone bot that is one thing, but if it is an entire army of bots that is quite another and from what I have seen, quite often the ones running armies of bots in PvE tend to be the not-so "kosher" farmers.
A more interesting question would be... Other than the obvious security/safety issues, is there a difference between buying gold form a 3rd party or from the developer?
Quite frankly, I don't think there is. So if you're going to pass judgement on the character of those who buy gold from 3rd parties, you have to apply the same criteria to those who do the same directly from developers in games like Rift for example, where you can buy items or just gold from the in-game cash shop.
Also... some good points in this thread about the unnecessary drudgery of a grind to get the same gold in the game not being most people's idea of fun.
It's not the same at all. For one thing, the former is cheating. There is no hedging around that. Some people don't mind being cheaters, but let's not pretend it is otherwise.
The second difference is one of consistency and availability. The developer provides consistent universally available access. Gold sellers provide opportunistic access that depends on how much they can get that week. They aren't universally available as some players won't cheat and some players won't risk their accounts to bans or theft.
Finally in a system where the developers don't provide access to rmt gold they set an intended balance of gold fonts and sinks. Botters/hackers/exploiters bypass the intended font rate and imbalance the amount of resources.
Fundamentally there isn't a theoretical difference in the concept of providing access to accelerated progression or resources, but the implementation is worlds apart as is the effect.
So you're basically saying that P2W by developer design is acceptable but P2W by 3rd party sales is not. The only difference I see is that one is gated by the willingness to take risks purchasing from unknowns and having the means to afford it and the other one is gated by just the means to afford it.
They're both cheating. The fact that one is encouraged by developers because they profit and the other one is demonized because they don't is just a thin and hypocritical rationalization.
They're both shortcuts to achieving what should be solely a gameplay objective and they both undermine the game system and mechanics.
This is littered with assumptions and statements that are flat out false.
"So you're basically saying that P2W by developer design is acceptable but P2W by 3rd party sales is not."
You're assuming that the gold is for the purpose of 'winning' or gaining an advantage. You are assuming the items being bought are for that purpose. P2W and its related talking points are a whole other topic.
"They're both cheating."
This is a mental block on your part, and to engage in any meaningful discussion, you will need to get past it. If it's the intended behavior and supported by the rules of the game, it isn't cheating.
"They're both shortcuts to achieving what should be solely a gameplay objective..."
According to...? If the game is designed with this as a coded mechanic, then the game is designed to support and facilitate it. It is, in and of itself, one of many gameplay objectives.
"...they both undermine the game system and mechanics."
If the game was designed poorly, then yes, the something like GW2's gems or SOE's Krono can undermine other game mechanics. ANY poorly designed mechanic can undermine the rest of the game mechanics.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
A more interesting question would be... Other than the obvious security/safety issues, is there a difference between buying gold form a 3rd party or from the developer?
Quite frankly, I don't think there is. So if you're going to pass judgement on the character of those who buy gold from 3rd parties, you have to apply the same criteria to those who do the same directly from developers in games like Rift for example, where you can buy items or just gold from the in-game cash shop.
Also... some good points in this thread about the unnecessary drudgery of a grind to get the same gold in the game not being most people's idea of fun.
It's not the same at all. For one thing, the former is cheating. There is no hedging around that. Some people don't mind being cheaters, but let's not pretend it is otherwise.
The second difference is one of consistency and availability. The developer provides consistent universally available access. Gold sellers provide opportunistic access that depends on how much they can get that week. They aren't universally available as some players won't cheat and some players won't risk their accounts to bans or theft.
Finally in a system where the developers don't provide access to rmt gold they set an intended balance of gold fonts and sinks. Botters/hackers/exploiters bypass the intended font rate and imbalance the amount of resources.
Fundamentally there isn't a theoretical difference in the concept of providing access to accelerated progression or resources, but the implementation is worlds apart as is the effect.
So you're basically saying that P2W by developer design is acceptable but P2W by 3rd party sales is not. The only difference I see is that one is gated by the willingness to take risks purchasing from unknowns and having the means to afford it and the other one is gated by just the means to afford it.
They're both cheating. The fact that one is encouraged by developers because they profit and the other one is demonized because they don't is just a thin and hypocritical rationalization.
They're both shortcuts to achieving what should be solely a gameplay objective and they both undermine the game system and mechanics.
This is littered with assumptions and statements that are flat out false.
"So you're basically saying that P2W by developer design is acceptable but P2W by 3rd party sales is not."
You're assuming that the gold is for the purpose of 'winning' or gaining an advantage. You are assuming the items being bought are for that purpose. P2W and its related talking points are a whole other topic.
"They're both cheating."
This is a mental block on your part, and to engage in any meaningful discussion, you will need to get past it. If it's the intended behavior and supported by the rules of the game, it isn't cheating.
"They're both shortcuts to achieving what should be solely a gameplay objective..."
According to...? If the game is designed with this as a coded mechanic, then the game is designed to support and facilitate it. It is, in and of itself, one of many gameplay objectives.
"...they both undermine the game system and mechanics."
If the game was designed poorly, then yes, the something like GW2's gems or SOE's Krono can undermine other game mechanics. ANY poorly designed mechanic can undermine the rest of the game mechanics.
If purchasing gold isn't a means to "winning" then what is it for? You must be thinking of only one type of 'win" when there are many: owning a desirable mount, costume or item is just as much winning to some people as gearing up to end-game levels to be more powerful in PVE raids or in PVP is to others. Do you suppose people buy gold from the developer or a 3rd party just to have it and not spend it?
And there is a lot of theory in your post with a couple of negative examples... so where are the positives from games with cash shops that are designed well in a way that the cash shop doesn't undermine the game play required to get the same item or gold?
It IS a P2W issue....one type sanctioned by the developers because they profit and one that isn't because they don't.
Buying gold is just buying gold no matter who you buy it from.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It's a "no game is designed for everyone, and that's okay" situation.
Going by your logic, it would be like going to a restaurant, voluntarily trying some new dish you've never tried before, then blaming it on "a problem with the chef" it when you don't like it - even though many around you are enjoying it just fine.
"I don't enjoy this activity I'm voluntarily participating in" is not an excuse to cheat or bypass it. It's reason to reconsider your choice of activity and find something else you would enjoy... even if that means finding another game entirely.
To say it's a "game design problem" because a developer hasn't designed their game specifically around "you" is pure ego-centric, self-entitled nonsense. It's indicative of someone who needs to a reality check, to realize there's a whole wide world beyond their own nose, and they aren't at the center of it.
Especially when others around "you" are participating in the same activities and enjoying it just fine.
Let's take an example of EVE shall we?
Let's say you are a busy person in real life and in EVE you like PvPing but because of time constraints you just can't earn enough ISK to buy back a bunch of ships you lost in your last fray and you know that your corporation is going to stage a big battle to kick the ass of that enemy corporation that just war decced you and smacktalked for a couple hours in system chat. You really want to be a part of that battle, so what do you do?
You buy a PLEX with real money from CCP and then put that PLEX on the ingame market. The value of the PLEX goes through the normal ingame market forces. Once you sell your PLEX to a player who has had more time to obtain ISK in the game but might not necessarily be able to afford to pay for his account (let's say it is because he has three accounts, a hauler and a scout or whatever). The player gets game time for his troubles. And you get ISK so that you can go and participate in your corporation's battle.
What is wrong with that scenario?
I have used the PLEX system before and I really like it. I was the player who had a few accounts and quite a bit of time on my hands and could make more ISK than I really needed so I bought PLEX on the ingame market in order to subsidize my other accounts. The guy who sold his PLEX to me got some ISK and CCP got some of his money when he paid for his PLEX. Everyone wins here. Everything is done legitimately, there are no hacks, no spams, no bots...
I would otherwise agree with you if you are talking about just the third party guys that hack and steal stuff.
Winning implies competition. When I play mmos I'm not competing do I could care less how you got the item nor do I care if you know how I got the item.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
IMHO once monetization enters a game, it ceases to be a game. Maybe more of an addiction.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
in gaming we have gamers,we know that we might lose or win.
gold /gem/itemshop buyers arent any of those,i would call them something like "wannabe gamers"
So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
**On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **
Not going to vote as I refuse to blanketly impune or pardon people I do not know. Regardless of what feelings people may hold about gold selling and gold buying, the real culprit is the gaming industry themselves for making long and tedious time and money sinks and unscrupulously presenting them as game play. When you make activities and goals artificially difficult and tedious people are going to find away around them. The gold buying community are simply cutting the Gordian Knot instead of settling for what they are given.
Now do I personally agree with this behavior? No I feel it's a massive waste of money on top of what was already paid for what was supposed to be entertainment. I feel the better behavior would be for these bored or annoyed players to stop rewarding companies for poor game mechanics and let them go bankrupt.
I definitely think they are Losers. The main reasons ppl say they buy gold is, "My time is too important to farm gold", which basically means, that that person has chosen the wrong hobby. Rather than realizing it, they support a group of people that not only hinder everyone else in the game, but also cause theft. It's really despicable, if these people were actually moral people, they would either play the game as it was intended or find something else to take up their time. Go game on consoles or something rather then ruining our games, thank you.
The other defense is, "Things are too expensive, which is the devs fault" which isn't true at all, that's the players fault. Once there is "unlimited gold" which is offered by gold sellers, well now the players can charge whatever they want on the AH and actually get it. It's complete nonsense and really has hindered the entire MMO industry, whether people agree with that assessment or not.
Personally I've moved to servers that have strict no RMT/botting rules and auto ban anyone that does it. Doesn't catch everyone, but keeps the server a hell of a lot cleaner than any other F2P games I have seen.
You're only looking at one half there. Do you feel the same about those that use GW2 gems or Wildstar CREDD?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You have the wrong hobby if you feel like it is work or you can equate time spent in game with time spent working.
That is most obviously the case when you talk about time management and efficiency when talking about a social past time/hobby.
My advice, donate to charity and get a new hobby that you can enjoy with the time you have available.
A more interesting question would be... Other than the obvious security/safety issues, is there a difference between buying gold form a 3rd party or from the developer?
Quite frankly, I don't think there is. So if you're going to pass judgement on the character of those who buy gold from 3rd parties, you have to apply the same criteria to those who do the same directly from developers in games like Rift for example, where you can buy items or just gold from the in-game cash shop.
Also... some good points in this thread about the unnecessary drudgery of a grind to get the same gold in the game not being most people's idea of fun.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Finally, someone that has thought about this. It has been going on since the first game that used gold like the games now do. And will continue as long as the dev's make games the same way.
They then act all hurt and surprised when the game gets gold farmers and spammers.P Bull.
Is and always has been a easy fix, 2 of them actually. First change game design so you do not have to farm it in the first place. And 2nd sell it themselves, regulate it, so they can get all the profit if they wish to make the same old game systems.
As above you put a problem/puzzle before people well guess what? They will find a way to deal with it themselves to make it easier and or profitable. Human nature. Do not try to fight it, just use it sensibly.
In vanilla WOW I suggested blizzard start their own gold exchange service. They shot me down on the official forms ignoring my idea. I'd go on to purchase gold all the time. Why ? I could afford it, and didn't waste my time grinding. I used the gold to make low level OP bg twinks.
The way they did it without being detected. You'd put 10 bandages on the auction house at 200g, or whatever items they suggested & they would buy the item transferring the money. If they ever wanted to send the cash directly via in game mail worked just as well. I did that too mutiple times and never got in trouble.
Guildwars 2 comes along and they did pretty much exactly what I suggested. You buy gems in via their trading company with real money and convert those gems to in game gold. Cutting out gold farmers entirely. Sure they still try to sell gold but whats the point really.
Your poll is a waste of time because someone who wants to buy gold will do so without giving a sh-- what other people think. They do it because they can afford it.
Can't speak for others (or about Wildstar as I have only played 4 hours of it an uninstalled) but when I was playing GW2 I really hated the gem system, same for Neverwinter. (I guess that is why I do not play either anymore).
My dislike of allowing external interference (excluding the players control of course) is essentially the same argument against metagaming when trying to engage in Roleplaying. Just because you the player know something, you should try to roleplay your character without the knowledge. I find it hard justifying how my character suddenly got 10,000 gold suddenly in his bank...Gods exist (in game) but holy fuck!
To me it is like trying to play Chess with someone who every now and then adds another Queen to the board. Invalidates the point of playing and the point of continuing and sooner or later I just get to a point of not caring to play any more..
I specified it didn't include player control.
To simplify my point. Anything that doesn't make sense being in the game world. So gold suddenly appearing in a bank account (due to external influences) or knowing the specific weakness of a Boss by looking it up on the internet (which the character still doesn't know).
Not sure if you understand what metagaiming is but there you go...
I knew a few people from my eve online days that used to sell isk to 3rd party companies. They were making an extra 2k a month doing it. I thought it was wrong but they believed its only pixels on the screen and people that get mad over it are the losers. But i will say this..For all the talk over the years of this killing games or even shutting them down hasn't happened to one game yet. I think its because these game companies pull in enough money to look the other way most of the time. Sure they will ban some accounts but it has no real effect. It just shows that they are trying is all. Gold selling and buying is just another part of the genre. The choice to do it is and always will be up to the player. And i'm willing to bet more people do it than you think or these companies would go out of bussiness. It will never go away. And i didn't bother to vote on the subject. Its been part of the mmo genre since the very first game.
Losers in my book plain and simple...
I'm sorry but I can't stand them in my mmo period. Finding goldseller spam in my characters mailbox, splattered messages to buy their cr@p in chat screens, personal group invites or whispers from these cretin are not a welcome sight as far as I'm concerned. If they could be simply ignored one time it would be just a minor annoyance but you block one & here comes another and so on. Like 99% of the advertisements on tv or websites I will never care about let alone support the gold spammer can be assured I don't want him in my game.
Just knowing someone will fall for their sales pitch promising the easy way to success is sad especially since most buyers will find they were scammed by losing their accounts to "hackers". Your gold purchase encourages sellers to get more gold and the easiest way to do that is to steal it from players so let the buyers beware it's not only their account being placed in jeopardy but your friends & guild mates as well.
I never understood it since we pay monthly subscription fees to adventure & level up why pay someone else to do it for you. Pure laziness & definitely not something I believe should be allowed to thrive in any shape or form. Removing the sellers reduces the temptation to run for the shiny loot so yes I voted LOSERS!
So you're basically saying that P2W by developer design is acceptable but P2W by 3rd party sales is not. The only difference I see is that one is gated by the willingness to take risks purchasing from unknowns and having the means to afford it and the other one is gated by just the means to afford it.
They're both cheating. The fact that one is encouraged by developers because they profit and the other one is demonized because they don't is just a thin and hypocritical rationalization.
They're both shortcuts to achieving what should be solely a gameplay objective and they both undermine the game system and mechanics.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
If it's allowed it isn't cheating.
To be a gold buyer is to crave unearned success.
Yes, having money means you've done something valuable with your life, but it won't earn you a better jump shot or higher chess rating will it? MMOs should work the same way.
100% disagree.
It's not a "design problem".
It's a "no game is designed for everyone, and that's okay" situation.
Going by your logic, it would be like going to a restaurant, voluntarily trying some new dish you've never tried before, then blaming it on "a lousy chef" when you don't like it - even though many around you are enjoying it just fine.
"I don't enjoy this activity I'm voluntarily participating in" is not an excuse to cheat or bypass it. It's reason to reconsider your choice of activity and find something else you would enjoy... even if that means finding another game entirely.
To say it's a "game design problem" because a game, or some activity, happens to not be designed specifically " for you" is pure ego-centric, self-entitled nonsense. It's indicative of someone in need of a reality check, to realize there's a whole wide world beyond their own nose, and they aren't at the center of it.
Especially when others around "you" are participating in the same activities and enjoying it just fine.
I am in no way advocating buying from 3rd party sellers, so you don't need to sell me on the adverse effects they have on an MMO.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think we need to separate this into two kinds of RMT: the legit and the not legit.
The legit one is done by the company or some form of accredited (by the company) entity. An example would be PLEX in EVE. I think that is fine. There is no proof that it ruins the ingame economy and it does not spur on the kinds of negative things we have seen in games of late that are already described in this thread and elsewhere. People who ingage in this sort of gold buying are not losers in my opinion and since usually a cut of the money goes to the company you are just further supporting the game that you love.
Those who go through the shady entities like third party traders with dubious pasts ARE losers though. The botters and goldspammers ruin my game experience. If it is one lone bot that is one thing, but if it is an entire army of bots that is quite another and from what I have seen, quite often the ones running armies of bots in PvE tend to be the not-so "kosher" farmers.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
This is littered with assumptions and statements that are flat out false.
"So you're basically saying that P2W by developer design is acceptable but P2W by 3rd party sales is not."
You're assuming that the gold is for the purpose of 'winning' or gaining an advantage. You are assuming the items being bought are for that purpose. P2W and its related talking points are a whole other topic.
"They're both cheating."
This is a mental block on your part, and to engage in any meaningful discussion, you will need to get past it. If it's the intended behavior and supported by the rules of the game, it isn't cheating.
"They're both shortcuts to achieving what should be solely a gameplay objective..."
According to...? If the game is designed with this as a coded mechanic, then the game is designed to support and facilitate it. It is, in and of itself, one of many gameplay objectives.
"...they both undermine the game system and mechanics."
If the game was designed poorly, then yes, the something like GW2's gems or SOE's Krono can undermine other game mechanics. ANY poorly designed mechanic can undermine the rest of the game mechanics.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If purchasing gold isn't a means to "winning" then what is it for? You must be thinking of only one type of 'win" when there are many: owning a desirable mount, costume or item is just as much winning to some people as gearing up to end-game levels to be more powerful in PVE raids or in PVP is to others. Do you suppose people buy gold from the developer or a 3rd party just to have it and not spend it?
And there is a lot of theory in your post with a couple of negative examples... so where are the positives from games with cash shops that are designed well in a way that the cash shop doesn't undermine the game play required to get the same item or gold?
It IS a P2W issue....one type sanctioned by the developers because they profit and one that isn't because they don't.
Buying gold is just buying gold no matter who you buy it from.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Let's take an example of EVE shall we?
Let's say you are a busy person in real life and in EVE you like PvPing but because of time constraints you just can't earn enough ISK to buy back a bunch of ships you lost in your last fray and you know that your corporation is going to stage a big battle to kick the ass of that enemy corporation that just war decced you and smacktalked for a couple hours in system chat. You really want to be a part of that battle, so what do you do?
You buy a PLEX with real money from CCP and then put that PLEX on the ingame market. The value of the PLEX goes through the normal ingame market forces. Once you sell your PLEX to a player who has had more time to obtain ISK in the game but might not necessarily be able to afford to pay for his account (let's say it is because he has three accounts, a hauler and a scout or whatever). The player gets game time for his troubles. And you get ISK so that you can go and participate in your corporation's battle.
What is wrong with that scenario?
I have used the PLEX system before and I really like it. I was the player who had a few accounts and quite a bit of time on my hands and could make more ISK than I really needed so I bought PLEX on the ingame market in order to subsidize my other accounts. The guy who sold his PLEX to me got some ISK and CCP got some of his money when he paid for his PLEX. Everyone wins here. Everything is done legitimately, there are no hacks, no spams, no bots...
I would otherwise agree with you if you are talking about just the third party guys that hack and steal stuff.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.