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I believe I finally understand what the FFA community wants out of a MMO, but it will never workout

MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
I believe I have finally what it is that the FFA community is looking for out of a MMO.

 

But the problem is that the current game design methods of doing FFA just doesn't suit the appeal, without the Cons outweighing the Pros.

 

I was watching a movie called "World War Z" last night for the first time. And I must say, it was a very interesting movie, and idea.

 

But what it reminded me of, was the concept of FFA Open World gameplay in MMO.

By the world full of chaos, and always having to look over your shoulder.

The movie had a more realistic approach to it.

 

But the key issues that separate the concept of World War Z from FFA MMOS

IS THE LACK OF MORALS AND SOCIAL ORDER..

But I understand both sides of this, but there is something about Online Gaming, that brings out the Unmoral Trolling Trolls 

And just about no law order in these games, that have any high level of respect.

 

This leads to a game where it is hard to trust anybody that isn't already in your circle.

Strangers rarely can work together because the Online Trolling main goal is to ruin the game for others, rather than focus on working together to save as many others as possible.

 

In World War Z, I noticed how, although there was mass chaos, the humans still worked together in some way at their own choice, to fight off the threat and save others from the Zombies.

 

A FFA-Troll if in the movie, would have been Capturing humans, simply to feed Zombies for their own enjoyment of seeing people suffer.

 

And this is why the current FFA MMO design simply won't cut it for what the FFA community is really looking for.

 

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Comments

  • GyrusGyrus Lost City of ZPosts: 2,335Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    ...

     

    But the problem is that the current game design methods of doing FFA just doesn't suit the appeal, without the Cons outweighing the Pros.

    ...

    But the key issues that separate the concept of World War Z from FFA MMOS

    IS THE LACK OF MORALS AND SOCIAL ORDER..

    But I understand both sides of this, but there is something about Online Gaming, that brings out the Unmoral Trolling Trolls 

    ...

    This leads to a game where it is hard to trust anybody that isn't already in your circle.

    Strangers rarely can work together because the Online Trolling main goal is to ruin the game for others, rather than focus on working together to save as many others as possible.

    In World War Z, I noticed how, although there was mass chaos, the humans still worked together in some way at their own choice, to fight off the threat and save others from the Zombies.

    A FFA-Troll if in the movie, would have been Capturing humans, simply to feed Zombies for their own enjoyment of seeing people suffer.

    And this is why the current FFA MMO design simply won't cut it for what the FFA community is really looking for.

     

    Er...congratz...

     

    So you just discovered John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory? (Honestly - I am surprised you never heard of it?)

    And it's called Griefing BTW.  (Again - honestly surprised...)

     

    So... how do you fix it?

    Why is griefing a problem online (aside from the Fuckwad Theory) and can it be fixed in MMOs?

     

    Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.

  • Cramit845Cramit845 Port Ewen, NYPosts: 343Member Uncommon

    Ok, not sure what you mean by FFA, either I'm being a dumbass (completely possible) or just not clear enough.  Are we talking full loot, pvp open world game or something else?  Just a little clarification plz!

     

    If we are talking bout full-loot, pvp game, take a look at my signature, only game getting close to it TMK.

    image

  • PAL-18PAL-18 AnachronoxPosts: 802Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

     In World War Z, I noticed how, although there was mass chaos, the humans still worked together in some way at their own choice, to fight off the threat and save others from the Zombies.

     

    http://cso.wikia.com/wiki/Votekick

     

    but in MMO´s ,instead of proper tools we get forced grouping with all kind of weirdos and we need to votekick ourselves.

     

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
    By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
    **On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,797Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

     In World War Z, I noticed how, although there was mass chaos, the humans still worked together in some way at their own choice, to fight off the threat and save others from the Zombies.

     

    http://cso.wikia.com/wiki/Votekick

     

    but in MMO´s ,instead of proper tools we get forced grouping with all kind of weirdos and we need to votekick ourselves.

     

    Votekick isn't a answer when I can queue up into another group 20 seconds later.  And I promise you 90% of the people who are vote kicked out of a group think it was the groups fault not their own.  The root problem is there is no social consequences to acting the way people do in games.  In real life people who act like that end up alone and without friends in games they are celebrated by people talking about their exploits in zone/server channels.

  • hfztthfztt GlostrupPosts: 839Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    I believe I have finally what it is that the FFA community is looking for out of a MMO.

     

    But the problem is that the current game design methods of doing FFA just doesn't suit the appeal, without the Cons outweighing the Pros.

     

    I was watching a movie called "World War Z" last night for the first time. And I must say, it was a very interesting movie, and idea.

     

    But what it reminded me of, was the concept of FFA Open World gameplay in MMO.

    By the world full of chaos, and always having to look over your shoulder.

    The movie had a more realistic approach to it.

     

    But the key issues that separate the concept of World War Z from FFA MMOS

    IS THE LACK OF MORALS AND SOCIAL ORDER..

    But I understand both sides of this, but there is something about Online Gaming, that brings out the Unmoral Trolling Trolls 

    And just about no law order in these games, that have any high level of respect.

     

    This leads to a game where it is hard to trust anybody that isn't already in your circle.

    Strangers rarely can work together because the Online Trolling main goal is to ruin the game for others, rather than focus on working together to save as many others as possible.

     

    In World War Z, I noticed how, although there was mass chaos, the humans still worked together in some way at their own choice, to fight off the threat and save others from the Zombies.

     

    A FFA-Troll if in the movie, would have been Capturing humans, simply to feed Zombies for their own enjoyment of seeing people suffer.

     

    And this is why the current FFA MMO design simply won't cut it for what the FFA community is really looking for.

     

    So... If I understand you correctly, your theory is that FFA will never work becourse the ADHD generation dont have the stamina to actually build relations and trust with other people?

    EVE stands a proff that it indeed can be done. The REAL currency of EVE is trust. And THAT you can only earn the hard way, with no possible shortcuts.

  • SomaQSomaQ Long Beach, CAPosts: 9Member
    Water balloon fights are a lot more fun when everyone else has a water balloon.
  • PAL-18PAL-18 AnachronoxPosts: 802Member
    Originally posted by udon
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

     In World War Z, I noticed how, although there was mass chaos, the humans still worked together in some way at their own choice, to fight off the threat and save others from the Zombies.

     

    http://cso.wikia.com/wiki/Votekick

     

    but in MMO´s ,instead of proper tools we get forced grouping with all kind of weirdos and we need to votekick ourselves.

     

    Votekick isn't a answer when I can queue up into another group 20 seconds later.  And I promise you 90% of the people who are vote kicked out of a group think it was the groups fault not their own.  The root problem is there is no social consequences to acting the way people do in games.  In real life people who act like that end up alone and without friends in games they are celebrated by people talking about their exploits in zone/server channels.

    Once upon a time in MMO worlds,we had choises,we were able to choose if we want to play with RP minded folks ,PvP ,mixed,Russinas,HUNs,if the server is dominated by some guilds/faction or whatever reasons,today we have megaservers and xserver forced grouping,its not just some dungeon groups,its far more than that these days.

    But luckily theres private servers and not even votekick is needed.

     

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.
    By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
    **On the radar:http://cyberpunk.net/**

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by hfztt
     

    So... If I understand you correctly, your theory is that FFA will never work becourse the ADHD generation dont have the stamina to actually build relations and trust with other people?

     

    more like most players are looking for casual entertainment, not long term relationships in games. Personally i don't play games for relationships. I already have enough of those in the real world.

    Games are entertainment .. not a second life.

     

  • naaminaami Dallas, TXPosts: 163Member Common
    A PVE MMORPG with a FFA-loot PVP Zone and no-loot dueling/arena would offer the best of both worlds. I don't know why nobody did it except runescape. 
  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,258Member Uncommon

    Age of Wushu - Civil FFA world.

     

    Made in China though so it doesn't count...

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,941Member Uncommon
    Lol hfztt, the primary rule of Eve is trust noone :)

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • goofy3kgoofy3k warminsterPosts: 245Member Uncommon

    Sorry OP, but are you new to the world of MMO's? FFA has been done before and worked. UO pre trammel. It's not some new dream or idea, it's how MMO's USED TO BE. Real worlds where player actions have an impact. With the moron gamers of today's world (mostly kids but also crybaby adults) the idea unfortunately has become only a dream. 

    So basically what I'm saying, the problem isn't in the game design or mechanics. Developers want money. Loads of crybaby  customers who think existance should revolve around them means less money, which in turn means no FFA type MMO's will ever be created by mainstream developers, and most indie developed games are just poorly done.

  • evilizedevilized columbus, OHPosts: 564Member Uncommon

    Yet another brilliant post by MMOExposed. 

     

    You're 16 years late to the party, bud. 

  • Inf666Inf666 DarmstadtPosts: 508Member

    A lawless PvP area can work. Eve is proof enough.

    The reason why it works is because in Eve your actions have consequences that hurt. In most "light" FFA MMOs bad mouthing, griefing or pissing off a few uber-clans has no consequences. You can literally be a d*** and get away with. Turn off safe zones and add partial loot and you will see them running into the hills and hide somewhere. Why? Because the decent people will group up and create societies in lawless space.

    In Eve I had the honor to play with a lot of great people. Where did I find them? In lawless space. And the internet scum? They were always close to some safe zone and trolled around there. You would never see them delve deeper into 0-security space because they were on the blacklist of most 0-sec corps in the area.

     

    Tl;dr: A game with FFA, no safe zones and partial looting can work if designed properly.

    ---
    Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

  • DoomsDay01DoomsDay01 Charlotte, NCPosts: 780Member
    I have always said that pvp in mmos need to have serious consequences and no mmo has ever come close to giving a true ffa experience. Look at archeage, You can kill lots of people and take peoples crops and if the person gets killed, he will face a jury of his peers that can sentence them to jail time. The max time I have seen for anyone to get is like 30 minutes. Oh look, I can stand in jail and go eat and come back and play again. What consequence is that? You want a real ffa system, it needs real consequences. Killing and stealing need far harsher sentences. We are talking hours/days/weeks of jail time depending on the crimes. That would get rid of most of the trolls that are only there to ruin others enjoyment of the game.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Inf666

    A lawless PvP area can work. Eve is proof enough.

    Eve is proof that how niche it is. After so many years, it barely breaks even half a mill subs.

    Even a game universally panned here, TOR, got 2M subs in its first month, and made $200M+ in 2013 after going f2p. Can you blame devs take one look and want to go with the millions, instead of the 500k (after so many years of hard work no less)?

  • MMOredfalconMMOredfalcon Mitchell, ONPosts: 132Member
    Originally posted by goofy3k

    Sorry OP, but are you new to the world of MMO's? FFA has been done before and worked. UO pre trammel. It's not some new dream or idea, it's how MMO's USED TO BE. Real worlds where player actions have an impact. With the moron gamers of today's world (mostly kids but also crybaby adults) the idea unfortunately has become only a dream. 

    So basically what I'm saying, the problem isn't in the game design or mechanics. Developers want money. Loads of crybaby  customers who think existance should revolve around them means less money, which in turn means no FFA type MMO's will ever be created by mainstream developers, and most indie developed games are just poorly done.

    LOL. UO pre-trammel is exactly what the type of gameplay the OP is talking about. UO pre Tram only worked for gankers and griefers. People who actually tried to play the game couldn't and left in droves. Pre tram was full of asshats and immature idiots who tried to ruin every community event. They were the ones who sat around moongates ganking everyone who came out. They were the ones who would aggro in the dungeons then go running and hide in a corner till everyone was dead so they could loot the corpses. They stood outside mines waiting for the miners to fill up then would gank. Or ran around the forest ganking noobies who left the cities. And lured people into Moongates to their homes where they trapped them, made them grey for trespassing then killed them.

    So basically you are right in the end. Developers want money. A smaller amount of asshat customers who think they pay for the right to be a complete jerkoff to other people and ruin everybodies gaming experience have made sure the FFA MMOs never get developed. And most FFA MMOs that have been developed have not done so well. So why should any Dev put millions of dollars into a game that would have a high chance failure?

  • seraphynxseraphynx Newport News, VAPosts: 147Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Inf666

    A lawless PvP area can work. Eve is proof enough.

    Eve is proof that how niche it is. After so many years, it barely breaks even half a mill subs.

    Even a game universally panned here, TOR, got 2M subs in its first month, and made $200M+ in 2013 after going f2p. Can you blame devs take one look and want to go with the millions, instead of the 500k (after so many years of hard work no less)?

    EvE first off is a space game has time based skill progression, and is not a dog fight type game and STILL keeps as many people as it does.. that right there is damn impressive.. you make a AAA ground fantasy based MMO with the complexity of EvE(maybe toned down a bit) it will blow up.. just no developer has tried yet... themeparks are quick cash grabs and that is what investors see so that is what they fund

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by seraphynx
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Inf666

    A lawless PvP area can work. Eve is proof enough.

    Eve is proof that how niche it is. After so many years, it barely breaks even half a mill subs.

    Even a game universally panned here, TOR, got 2M subs in its first month, and made $200M+ in 2013 after going f2p. Can you blame devs take one look and want to go with the millions, instead of the 500k (after so many years of hard work no less)?

    EvE first off is a space game has time based skill progression, and is not a dog fight type game and STILL keeps as many people as it does.. that right there is damn impressive.. you make a AAA ground fantasy based MMO with the complexity of EvE(maybe toned down a bit) it will blow up.. just no developer has tried yet...

    may be impressive to you ... certainly it does not to other devs since no one is copying them.

    And obviously no one is going to spend money trying a niche formula on a AAA game. Heck, even wow has to TONE down the open-pvp, and complexity ... that is better evidence that there is little market for a fantasy version of Eve.

    But you don't have to (and can't) convince me. You have to convince those who have money to invest.

  • seraphynxseraphynx Newport News, VAPosts: 147Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by seraphynx
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Inf666

    A lawless PvP area can work. Eve is proof enough.

    Eve is proof that how niche it is. After so many years, it barely breaks even half a mill subs.

    Even a game universally panned here, TOR, got 2M subs in its first month, and made $200M+ in 2013 after going f2p. Can you blame devs take one look and want to go with the millions, instead of the 500k (after so many years of hard work no less)?

    EvE first off is a space game has time based skill progression, and is not a dog fight type game and STILL keeps as many people as it does.. that right there is damn impressive.. you make a AAA ground fantasy based MMO with the complexity of EvE(maybe toned down a bit) it will blow up.. just no developer has tried yet...

    may be impressive to you ... certainly it does not to other devs since no one is copying them.

    And obviously no one is going to spend money trying a niche formula on a AAA game. Heck, even wow has to TONE down the open-pvp, and complexity ... that is better evidence that there is little market for a fantasy version of Eve.

    But you don't have to (and can't) convince me. You have to convince those who have money to invest.

    if you look at the games on the horizon devs are moving away from the standard themepark model so not sure your point

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by seraphynx
     

    if you look at the games on the horizon devs are moving away from the standard themepark model so not sure your point

    Yes, they are. They are moving away from MMO all together. Blizz is scraping (or wait ... "re-designing") their MMO and focus on MOBA and card games for now. Destiny is called a MMO but it is not massive nor persistent. Division is another MMO that is not a MMO.

    The *only* future big MMO-ish game is from SOE and f2p. So my guess it that there will be less MMO in the future, and more new types of online games may be with some MMO features (and many will call them MMOs).

     

  • seraphynxseraphynx Newport News, VAPosts: 147Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by seraphynx
     

    if you look at the games on the horizon devs are moving away from the standard themepark model so not sure your point

    Yes, they are. They are moving away from MMO all together. Blizz is scraping (or wait ... "re-designing") their MMO and focus on MOBA and card games for now. Destiny is called a MMO but it is not massive nor persistent. Division is another MMO that is not a MMO.

    The *only* future big MMO-ish game is from SOE and f2p. So my guess it that there will be less MMO in the future, and more new types of online games may be with some MMO features (and many will call them MMOs).

     

    and why would that be? and if so most likely because over the past decade they have pretty much done nothing much to really shake up the genre and basically used the same basic model with couple tweaks in almost every single game..and now the market is completely saturated with these games.. if EQ Next hits it huge with their hybrid MMO others will follow suit.. we shall see.. also plenty of indie ones on the horizon  to keep people interested as well

  • QuesaQuesa Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,246Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by seraphynx
     

    if you look at the games on the horizon devs are moving away from the standard themepark model so not sure your point

    Yes, they are. They are moving away from MMO all together. Blizz is scraping (or wait ... "re-designing") their MMO and focus on MOBA and card games for now. Destiny is called a MMO but it is not massive nor persistent. Division is another MMO that is not a MMO.

    The *only* future big MMO-ish game is from SOE and f2p. So my guess it that there will be less MMO in the future, and more new types of online games may be with some MMO features (and many will call them MMOs).

     

    Blizzard is rumored to release details on their new MMO during BlizzCon this year, we'll see.  You're assertion that devs are moving away from MMOs all together is unfounded speculation.  Off the top of my head, you have Black Desert, Blade and Soul, Camelot Unchained, Everquest Next, The Repopulation, Wildstar (just released), ESO (just released), Archeage (porting to US market), City of Titans, FF XIV (was re-released)... I mean common man.  These are just the titles off the top of my head released this year or to be released by 2015 and remember, we're already half way through 2014.

    I think it's great that developers are putting resources into Multiplayer games such as Elite, The Division and Watchdogs so that players can do single player stuff, play with a team or play online.  

    But damn man, goin out on that toothpick sized limb of "[Devs] are moving away from MMOs all together"...that's an awfully ostentatious statement.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by seraphynx
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by seraphynx
     

    if you look at the games on the horizon devs are moving away from the standard themepark model so not sure your point

    Yes, they are. They are moving away from MMO all together. Blizz is scraping (or wait ... "re-designing") their MMO and focus on MOBA and card games for now. Destiny is called a MMO but it is not massive nor persistent. Division is another MMO that is not a MMO.

    The *only* future big MMO-ish game is from SOE and f2p. So my guess it that there will be less MMO in the future, and more new types of online games may be with some MMO features (and many will call them MMOs).

     

    and why would that be? most likely because over the past decade they have pretty much done nothing much to really shake up the genre and basically used the same basic model with couple tweaks in almost every single game..and now the market is completely saturated with these games.. if EQ Next hits it huge with their hybrid MMO others will follow suit.. we shall see.. also plenty of indie ones on the horizon  to keep people interested as well

    Or because they found greener pastures to invest in  .. like MOBA?

    Obviously whether EQ Next will hit it big will make a difference .. and we shall see. But i am not going to bet money on it. It is just another f2p MMO (despite all the hype that "it is different") in a crowded market. I would be surprise if they can steal any thunder from say a real success like LoL, or even just WoT.

     

  • KanethKaneth Posts: 1,918Member Uncommon

    Honestly, I'm not entirely sure why a developer would even attempt to make a FFA MMO anymore, especially when they could make something more like a DayZ stand alone and allow folks to create private servers to enforce their own rule sets. They have a better chance at obtaining a purchase from folks who may avoid ffa mmos all together, but don't mind playing a FFA game on a private server where they feel more comfortable.

     

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