Skill based combat is when the players personal skills and not his avatars skills and items determine the outcome of a battle.
For true skill based combat to happen the game must provide mechanics so that players can be catagorized into different skill levels. A player of a lower skill level will lose 75% of all matches against a player of a higher skill level.
This can be achieved by providing many dimensions with equal impact to combat such as
- aiming
- dodging / blocking
- timing and reflexes
- tactical and strategical knowledge
- gear
- resource management
- skill management
- dimensions of movement (2D vs 3D vs 4D)
- foresight and preparedness
- teamplay
- understanding of probability
Combat with tab-targeting usually has a lower amount of combat dimensions than twitch based combat. Unluckily the developers always seem to use tab-targeting in games whenever they want to remove personal player skill from the game. This has caused tab-targeting to be considered an indicator for a non skill based game. Games like dark souls beg to differ.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
No one is arguing that "only MMO with Feature X requires skill."
actually many people on these forums have said many many times tab target games require zero skill or only action based games require skill i see it all the time
TBH, I don't actually class aiming in most computer games a skill. Well not like aiming in sports like Archery, Darts or even attempting a field goal.
Maybe if the game actually takes into consideration recoil on weapons and the such.
Also, in FPS I find its more luck based than skill. Unless your playing pro.
You could actually argue that selecting certain cells in Excel takes skill. If you added a time constraint.
TBH, I don't actually class aiming in most computer games a skill. Well not like aiming in sports like Archery, Darts or even attempting a field goal.
Maybe if the game actually takes into consideration recoil on weapons and the such.
Also, in FPS I find its more luck based than skill. Unless your playing pro.
You could actually argue that selecting certain cells in Excel takes skill. If you added a time constraint.
I agree, without constraints aiming at a static target (excel cells) is easy and can be done by anyone.
In a game scenario on the other hand you never have the time to just aim. You have to move in relation to your opponent. You have to observe your opponent and shoot at the right time. You have to change your movement when your opponent is firing. And while doing so you have to control your recoil and stay aware of the game situation. Aiming suddenly becomes a monumental task.
The point is, the more tasks someone has to perform at once the more skill-based does the game become. Thats why tab targeting and too much roll dice is so bad. It relieves you of so many tasks that the combat becomes easy.
Btw. what do you mean by luck? Aiming and recoil compensation is not luck. It is simply something you have to learn if you want to become a better player.
--- Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Skill based combat is when the players personal skills and not his avatars skills and items determine the outcome of a battle.
For true skill based combat to happen the game must provide mechanics so that players can be catagorized into different skill levels. A player of a lower skill level will lose 75% of all matches against a player of a higher skill level.
This can be achieved by providing many dimensions with equal impact to combat such as
- aiming
- dodging / blocking
- timing and reflexes
- tactical and strategical knowledge
- gear
- resource management
- skill management
- dimensions of movement (2D vs 3D vs 4D)
- foresight and preparedness
- teamplay
- understanding of probability
Combat with tab-targeting usually has a lower amount of combat dimensions than twitch based combat. Unluckily the developers always seem to use tab-targeting in games whenever they want to remove personal player skill from the game. This has caused tab-targeting to be considered an indicator for a non skill based game. Games like dark souls beg to differ.
generally tab targets have more types of skills though.. more types of buffs more types of debuffs more types of status effects.. With action based games the skillsets are generally also greatly limited. So depending on the game it can even out if you have to keep track of a ton of different abilities and types of abilities or in another game you may only have to keep track of a small amount but more twitch stuff..
Skill based combat is when the players personal skills and not his avatars skills and items determine the outcome of a battle.
For true skill based combat to happen the game must provide mechanics so that players can be catagorized into different skill levels. A player of a lower skill level will lose 75% of all matches against a player of a higher skill level.
This can be achieved by providing many dimensions with equal impact to combat such as
- aiming
- dodging / blocking
- timing and reflexes
- tactical and strategical knowledge
- gear
- resource management
- skill management
- dimensions of movement (2D vs 3D vs 4D)
- foresight and preparedness
- teamplay
- understanding of probability
Combat with tab-targeting usually has a lower amount of combat dimensions than twitch based combat. Unluckily the developers always seem to use tab-targeting in games whenever they want to remove personal player skill from the game. This has caused tab-targeting to be considered an indicator for a non skill based game. Games like dark souls beg to differ.
The funny thing is that people point to a feature such as aiming or dodging and say 'this game takes more skill than tab target'.
High end content, especially in PvP but also in PvE, takes more skill in WoW than it does in TERA. The reason being is that many of these dimensions you listed above are amplified in WoW because of the greater depth of the combat system. Especially tactical/strategical knowledge and teamwork.
Of course both games have drastically different difficulty curves: a 'keyboard turner' isn't going to be able to do much of anything in TERA. But at the high end WoW requires more skill than TERA because there is more to consider.
And gear matters to an extent, but within reason skill > gear and its not even close. Most MMOs are like this though.
Btw. what do you mean by luck? Aiming and recoil compensation is not luck. It is simply something you have to learn if you want to become a better player.
Actually, the luck thing is more about the skill of the individual rather than the game mechanics at hand so ignore that.
This is another term such as 'sandbox' which has an ever changing definition and is probably more of a philosophy of game/combat design than anything else.
I would propose that any game which pits players versus other players has skill-based combat. Despite those games which rely heavily on gear level and stats have skill-based combat because there are still aspects of the engagement that come down to one player's familiarity of their class/skills/system that gives them an edge.
More often than not, 'skill-based' is used to belittle another's choice in gameplay or game.
This is another term such as 'sandbox' which has an ever changing definition and is probably more of a philosophy of game/combat design than anything else.
I would propose that any game which pits players versus other players has skill-based combat. Despite those games which rely heavily on gear level and stats have skill-based combat because there are still aspects of the engagement that come down to one player's familiarity of their class/skills/system that gives them an edge.
More often than not, 'skill-based' is used to belittle another's choice in gameplay or game.
Skill based combat is when the players personal skills and not his avatars skills and items determine the outcome of a battle.
For true skill based combat to happen the game must provide mechanics so that players can be catagorized into different skill levels. A player of a lower skill level will lose 75% of all matches against a player of a higher skill level.
This can be achieved by providing many dimensions with equal impact to combat such as
- aiming
- dodging / blocking
- timing and reflexes
- tactical and strategical knowledge
- gear
- resource management
- skill management
- dimensions of movement (2D vs 3D vs 4D)
- foresight and preparedness
- teamplay
- understanding of probability
Combat with tab-targeting usually has a lower amount of combat dimensions than twitch based combat. Unluckily the developers always seem to use tab-targeting in games whenever they want to remove personal player skill from the game. This has caused tab-targeting to be considered an indicator for a non skill based game. Games like dark souls beg to differ.
The funny thing is that people point to a feature such as aiming or dodging and say 'this game takes more skill than tab target'.
All it means is that using a mouse to point at things on a monitor is a skill. FPS games are the epitome of skilled based combat.
Originally posted by Utinni This is just another buzzword people use to make themselves feel better. I can't think of an MMO pvp system that really takes skill. Most telegraphs are super simple to land, and almost all games work off of a system where you have a reaction for every reaction, similar to baseball.
It's not a buzzword, and it's not something to be offended by either.
A game being 'skill-based' isn't a snipe at people playing 'non-skill-based' games. All it refers to is what the primary determining factor is for success / victory / winning a game. All games have varying degrees of skill. That is not what is being debated.
When someone says a game is 'skill-based' they mean the game primarily defers to player skill when determining outcome. There are quite obvious examples of both skill, and non-skill based games. And there are some that fall within the grey area in between (like MOBAs).
It's very hard to argue that some MMOs (like WoW) are mostly determined by player skill, when the power creep between gear is so insanely huge, that it is now at the point where a newer WoW player is doing thousands of damage, while a fully decked out vet is doing 100s of thousands if not millions of damage. Other MMOs (primarily newer ones), not only try to minimize these gear differentials, but they also allow for players to mitigate much of what an enemy is doing to them via proper timing, positioning, aiming, etc.
That is the very definition of 'skill', not who has the better legendaries. This doesn't mean that a game like WoW doesn't have a certain degree of skill, but rather that it is not the primary determining factor. It doesn't matter how skilled you are in WoW, you aren't doing top-tier endgame raids in white gear. It's mathematically impossible. Same in PvP. However in a skill based game it can be possible, through proper timing, positioning, aiming, etc. And indeed, in games like GW2 i have beaten less skilled higher lvl (and better geared) players as crappy underleveled / undergeared toons.
The problem really lies in what type of game you prefer. RPG's are suppose to be about the character, not so much the player. FPS and RTS are suppose to be about player twitch skills or tactical thinking on the fly. I'm rather irritated that the industry continues down the road of bastardizing RPG's in order to satisfy customers that should be playing some other type of game. Even that wouldn't be an issue if they at least offered just as many of each with every new wave of games, but the unfortunate result of bandwagoning means that almost every single new release year sees too many of one style and not enough if any of the other.
Originally posted by immodium All it means is that using a mouse to point at things on a monitor is a skill. FPS games are the epitome of skilled based combat.
I would argue exactly the opposite. In an FPS, you're generally only concerned with putting your reticle over a hostile target with little else to micro-manage.
Just because one can move their mouse faster doesn't mean they have more skill than another, it just means they can physically react or has the proper muscle memory to do so faster than another guy.
Originally posted by immodium All it means is that using a mouse to point at things on a monitor is a skill. FPS games are the epitome of skilled based combat.
I would argue exactly the opposite. In an FPS, you're generally only concerned with putting your reticle over a hostile target with little else to micro-manage.
Just because one can move their mouse faster doesn't mean they have more skill than another, it just means they can physically react or has the proper muscle memory to do so faster than another guy.
You might want to try Planetside 2, it really is more than just pointing a mouse at somebody, it involves teamwork, tactics and being able to adapt rapidly to a changing battlefield, and those things really are a measure of player skills rather than ability to 'point a mouse' but even that is really just the tip of the iceberg.
Originally posted by immodium All it means is that using a mouse to point at things on a monitor is a skill. FPS games are the epitome of skilled based combat.
I would argue exactly the opposite. In an FPS, you're generally only concerned with putting your reticle over a hostile target with little else to micro-manage.
Just because one can move their mouse faster doesn't mean they have more skill than another, it just means they can physically react or has the proper muscle memory to do so faster than another guy.
But that's the only difference between the action combat that's being labeled as skill based and tab-targeting.
When people use the word skill I think they actually mean reaction based combat. Skill is all about the individual, not the mechanics.
Originally posted by immodium All it means is that using a mouse to point at things on a monitor is a skill. FPS games are the epitome of skilled based combat.
I would argue exactly the opposite. In an FPS, you're generally only concerned with putting your reticle over a hostile target with little else to micro-manage.
Just because one can move their mouse faster doesn't mean they have more skill than another, it just means they can physically react or has the proper muscle memory to do so faster than another guy.
You might want to try Planetside 2, it really is more than just pointing a mouse at somebody, it involves teamwork, tactics and being able to adapt rapidly to a changing battlefield, and those things really are a measure of player skills rather than ability to 'point a mouse' but even that is really just the tip of the iceberg.
The same can be said about tab-target combat systems.
The same can be said about tab-target combat systems.
Teamwork, check.
Tactics, check.
And adapting to a dynamic battlefield, check.
Which MMOs with tab-targetting offer dynamic battlefields? To be clear, I'm not trying to suggest there aren't any, I am asking which ones have them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The same can be said about tab-target combat systems.
Teamwork, check.
Tactics, check.
And adapting to a dynamic battlefield, check.
Which MMOs with tab-targetting offer dynamic battlefields? To be clear, I'm not trying to suggest there aren't any, I am asking which ones have them.
I'm mainly referring to PvP and probably a very loose definition of the term.
SWTOR warzones for me feel dynamic as It's PvP, and depending on who I'm fighting and how they fight I have to adapt accordingly. It's still a battlefield, just a small one.
Theres nothing stopping a dev to implement a dynamic battlefield on a larger scale with tab-targeting though.
What phry lists are more about the strategy side of the combat. Which can include tab-targeting.
The same can be said about tab-target combat systems.
Teamwork, check.
Tactics, check.
And adapting to a dynamic battlefield, check.
Which MMOs with tab-targetting offer dynamic battlefields? To be clear, I'm not trying to suggest there aren't any, I am asking which ones have them.
I'm mainly referring to PvP and probably a very loose definition of the term.
SWTOR warzones for me feel dynamic as It's PvP, and depending on who I'm fighting and how they fight I have to adapt accordingly. It's still a battlefield, just a small one.
Theres nothing stopping a dev to implement a dynamic battlefield on a larger scale with tab-targeting though.
What phry lists are more about the strategy side of the combat. Which can include tab-targeting.
Thanks, Immodium. I have to fire up SWTOR again and give that a try.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by immodium All it means is that using a mouse to point at things on a monitor is a skill. FPS games are the epitome of skilled based combat.
I would argue exactly the opposite. In an FPS, you're generally only concerned with putting your reticle over a hostile target with little else to micro-manage.
Just because one can move their mouse faster doesn't mean they have more skill than another, it just means they can physically react or has the proper muscle memory to do so faster than another guy.
Because "putting your reticle" over a target is way more skillful than "micro manage". One is based on knowledge and the other on raw hand eye coordination.
And these type of strategy/FPS games have been mixing with RPG elements for quite a while, maybe even evolving into a new genre, so whoever says I should be playing other games can fuck off.
Originally posted by immodium All it means is that using a mouse to point at things on a monitor is a skill. FPS games are the epitome of skilled based combat.
I would argue exactly the opposite. In an FPS, you're generally only concerned with putting your reticle over a hostile target with little else to micro-manage.
Just because one can move their mouse faster doesn't mean they have more skill than another, it just means they can physically react or has the proper muscle memory to do so faster than another guy.
You might want to try Planetside 2, it really is more than just pointing a mouse at somebody, it involves teamwork, tactics and being able to adapt rapidly to a changing battlefield, and those things really are a measure of player skills rather than ability to 'point a mouse' but even that is really just the tip of the iceberg.
The same can be said about tab-target combat systems.
Teamwork, check.
Tactics, check.
And adapting to a dynamic battlefield, check.
Exactly, I don't get the hatred for tab-target games. In most that I've encountered, hitting tab just moves your target to the next closest target, something you'd almost certainly do yourself if you had to move it manually. Why would you attack an enemy farther away and thus, less of a danger to you? Thereafter, you can introduce whatever fighting mechanics you want, tab-target doesn't stop you from having tons of skills or combat moves or weapons or whatever. It just picks the most logical target for you to attack and if you don't like it, you can always just hit tab again to move to the next target.
People fight over the most absurd things around here.
Because "putting your reticle" over a target is way more skillful than "micro manage". One is based on knowledge and the other on raw hand eye coordination.
Its not just knowledge. Its the ability to apply that knowledge in an often chaotic situation.
I look at it like there are two types of dexterity: physical and mental
Both are without question 'skill', however when people refer to skill in an MMORPG they are usually talking about only physical dexterity.
Originally posted by Destai The general idea is that tab targeting systems are based on rolls of dice, thereby absolving the player of concerning about positions, dodges, etc. In games like Guild Wars 2, the damage is still based off of a calculation but the player has to manage dodges and other functions abstracted to a dice roll.
If both players have equal gear and stats then it no longer is just a dice roll..so then it would come down to who knows how to play their character better
Originally posted by seraphynx I see people state non tab target combat = skill based I don't understand that concept...all combat is skill based no matter the targeting system. Can someone elaborate why aiming seems to be the definition of skill based to people?
I'll take a stab at this too.
Tab Targeting Combat (taking WoW as a prime example): You press one keyboard button, you instantly select a nearby enemy as a target to fight. You press another button, your character automatically launches some kind of attack at the target. Pressing a variety of other buttons will launch different kinds of attacks, or self-buffing abilities, etc...and the effectiveness of these attacks is purely based off of virtual dice rolls that are affected by base stat "numbers" of some kind on both yourself and the enemy. Moving your character, shifting your mouse position on them, anything that would test your personal real-world hand-eye coordination and timing...meaningless.
Those real world skills of yours will have no effect on the fight, it's all down to which buttons you mash in what order, if your equipment is "better" than the other guy's and pure fate. Equipment in particular is a big factor...some young boob with lots of time on their hands that gets powerlevelled by friends to a very high level in a single month will usually vaporize an older, more mature player who can't play very often but puts detailed tactical thought into their build and skill use, but is currently at a much lower level after 6 months, because the equipment "Numbers" of the young guy completely overwhelm the "Numbers" of the older but lower level guy, and all it takes is a couple of brainless button presses to start the vaporization. The lower level guy could launch his strongest attack at the higher level one while the latter is doing some stupid dance moves and not even scratch him, whereas in vice versa the lower level guy becomes a stain on the ground. Some human skill is needed to both plan out which sequence of skills to fire and which ones to have trained up in beforehand, but that's it. Even the mighty Eve Online, when you look at the actual mechanics of combat between two ships, is little different. It does have MORE elements that get calculated against for each attack and a few more ways of moving your ships around automatically which does have an effect on those calculations, but it's still pretty much the same at a core level.
Skill based combat: Your real-world abilities at hand-eye coordination, timing, adaptive tactical thought and team leadership play a big majority factor in whether or not you win a fight. Someone very new to a game but sharp and on the ball can stomp a multi-year veteran who is lazy or not paying attention. Eve Online for example redeems itself here; although the combat mechanics at their core are tab-targeting style math, the tactical thought between the two players certainly isn't. A relatively small group of players barely two weeks old in small ultra-cheap frigates could crush a 10 year old player in a battleship if they use proper tactics. Virtually all First Person Shooter games are considered skill-based (cheaters aside...I saw that earlier aimbot comment ) because of the hand-eye coordination and tactical coordination needed to do well in them.
Comments
Skill based combat is when the players personal skills and not his avatars skills and items determine the outcome of a battle.
For true skill based combat to happen the game must provide mechanics so that players can be catagorized into different skill levels. A player of a lower skill level will lose 75% of all matches against a player of a higher skill level.
This can be achieved by providing many dimensions with equal impact to combat such as
- aiming
- dodging / blocking
- timing and reflexes
- tactical and strategical knowledge
- gear
- resource management
- skill management
- dimensions of movement (2D vs 3D vs 4D)
- foresight and preparedness
- teamplay
- understanding of probability
Combat with tab-targeting usually has a lower amount of combat dimensions than twitch based combat. Unluckily the developers always seem to use tab-targeting in games whenever they want to remove personal player skill from the game. This has caused tab-targeting to be considered an indicator for a non skill based game. Games like dark souls beg to differ.
---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
TBH, I don't actually class aiming in most computer games a skill. Well not like aiming in sports like Archery, Darts or even attempting a field goal.
Maybe if the game actually takes into consideration recoil on weapons and the such.
Also, in FPS I find its more luck based than skill. Unless your playing pro.
You could actually argue that selecting certain cells in Excel takes skill. If you added a time constraint.
I agree, without constraints aiming at a static target (excel cells) is easy and can be done by anyone.
In a game scenario on the other hand you never have the time to just aim. You have to move in relation to your opponent. You have to observe your opponent and shoot at the right time. You have to change your movement when your opponent is firing. And while doing so you have to control your recoil and stay aware of the game situation. Aiming suddenly becomes a monumental task.
The point is, the more tasks someone has to perform at once the more skill-based does the game become. Thats why tab targeting and too much roll dice is so bad. It relieves you of so many tasks that the combat becomes easy.
Btw. what do you mean by luck? Aiming and recoil compensation is not luck. It is simply something you have to learn if you want to become a better player.
---
Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
I've never participated in a skill based combat system in a video game. It's the limitation of static mechanics.
generally tab targets have more types of skills though.. more types of buffs more types of debuffs more types of status effects.. With action based games the skillsets are generally also greatly limited. So depending on the game it can even out if you have to keep track of a ton of different abilities and types of abilities or in another game you may only have to keep track of a small amount but more twitch stuff..
The funny thing is that people point to a feature such as aiming or dodging and say 'this game takes more skill than tab target'.
High end content, especially in PvP but also in PvE, takes more skill in WoW than it does in TERA. The reason being is that many of these dimensions you listed above are amplified in WoW because of the greater depth of the combat system. Especially tactical/strategical knowledge and teamwork.
Of course both games have drastically different difficulty curves: a 'keyboard turner' isn't going to be able to do much of anything in TERA. But at the high end WoW requires more skill than TERA because there is more to consider.
And gear matters to an extent, but within reason skill > gear and its not even close. Most MMOs are like this though.
This sums up what I was going to say.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I agree as well
All it means is that using a mouse to point at things on a monitor is a skill. FPS games are the epitome of skilled based combat.
The problem really lies in what type of game you prefer. RPG's are suppose to be about the character, not so much the player. FPS and RTS are suppose to be about player twitch skills or tactical thinking on the fly. I'm rather irritated that the industry continues down the road of bastardizing RPG's in order to satisfy customers that should be playing some other type of game. Even that wouldn't be an issue if they at least offered just as many of each with every new wave of games, but the unfortunate result of bandwagoning means that almost every single new release year sees too many of one style and not enough if any of the other.
I would argue exactly the opposite. In an FPS, you're generally only concerned with putting your reticle over a hostile target with little else to micro-manage.Just because one can move their mouse faster doesn't mean they have more skill than another, it just means they can physically react or has the proper muscle memory to do so faster than another guy.
You might want to try Planetside 2, it really is more than just pointing a mouse at somebody, it involves teamwork, tactics and being able to adapt rapidly to a changing battlefield, and those things really are a measure of player skills rather than ability to 'point a mouse' but even that is really just the tip of the iceberg.
But that's the only difference between the action combat that's being labeled as skill based and tab-targeting.
When people use the word skill I think they actually mean reaction based combat. Skill is all about the individual, not the mechanics.
I agree with you btw.
The same can be said about tab-target combat systems.
Teamwork, check.
Tactics, check.
And adapting to a dynamic battlefield, check.
Which MMOs with tab-targetting offer dynamic battlefields? To be clear, I'm not trying to suggest there aren't any, I am asking which ones have them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm mainly referring to PvP and probably a very loose definition of the term.
SWTOR warzones for me feel dynamic as It's PvP, and depending on who I'm fighting and how they fight I have to adapt accordingly. It's still a battlefield, just a small one.
Theres nothing stopping a dev to implement a dynamic battlefield on a larger scale with tab-targeting though.
What phry lists are more about the strategy side of the combat. Which can include tab-targeting.
Thanks, Immodium. I have to fire up SWTOR again and give that a try.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Because "putting your reticle" over a target is way more skillful than "micro manage". One is based on knowledge and the other on raw hand eye coordination.
And these type of strategy/FPS games have been mixing with RPG elements for quite a while, maybe even evolving into a new genre, so whoever says I should be playing other games can fuck off.
Exactly, I don't get the hatred for tab-target games. In most that I've encountered, hitting tab just moves your target to the next closest target, something you'd almost certainly do yourself if you had to move it manually. Why would you attack an enemy farther away and thus, less of a danger to you? Thereafter, you can introduce whatever fighting mechanics you want, tab-target doesn't stop you from having tons of skills or combat moves or weapons or whatever. It just picks the most logical target for you to attack and if you don't like it, you can always just hit tab again to move to the next target.
People fight over the most absurd things around here.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Its not just knowledge. Its the ability to apply that knowledge in an often chaotic situation.
I look at it like there are two types of dexterity: physical and mental
Both are without question 'skill', however when people refer to skill in an MMORPG they are usually talking about only physical dexterity.
Because that would strike a blow to the asinine narrative that you can't have good or dynamic combat with tab-targeting...and we can't have that.
All other things equal - yes.
I'll take a stab at this too.
Tab Targeting Combat (taking WoW as a prime example): You press one keyboard button, you instantly select a nearby enemy as a target to fight. You press another button, your character automatically launches some kind of attack at the target. Pressing a variety of other buttons will launch different kinds of attacks, or self-buffing abilities, etc...and the effectiveness of these attacks is purely based off of virtual dice rolls that are affected by base stat "numbers" of some kind on both yourself and the enemy. Moving your character, shifting your mouse position on them, anything that would test your personal real-world hand-eye coordination and timing...meaningless.
Those real world skills of yours will have no effect on the fight, it's all down to which buttons you mash in what order, if your equipment is "better" than the other guy's and pure fate. Equipment in particular is a big factor...some young boob with lots of time on their hands that gets powerlevelled by friends to a very high level in a single month will usually vaporize an older, more mature player who can't play very often but puts detailed tactical thought into their build and skill use, but is currently at a much lower level after 6 months, because the equipment "Numbers" of the young guy completely overwhelm the "Numbers" of the older but lower level guy, and all it takes is a couple of brainless button presses to start the vaporization. The lower level guy could launch his strongest attack at the higher level one while the latter is doing some stupid dance moves and not even scratch him, whereas in vice versa the lower level guy becomes a stain on the ground. Some human skill is needed to both plan out which sequence of skills to fire and which ones to have trained up in beforehand, but that's it. Even the mighty Eve Online, when you look at the actual mechanics of combat between two ships, is little different. It does have MORE elements that get calculated against for each attack and a few more ways of moving your ships around automatically which does have an effect on those calculations, but it's still pretty much the same at a core level.
Skill based combat: Your real-world abilities at hand-eye coordination, timing, adaptive tactical thought and team leadership play a big majority factor in whether or not you win a fight. Someone very new to a game but sharp and on the ball can stomp a multi-year veteran who is lazy or not paying attention. Eve Online for example redeems itself here; although the combat mechanics at their core are tab-targeting style math, the tactical thought between the two players certainly isn't. A relatively small group of players barely two weeks old in small ultra-cheap frigates could crush a 10 year old player in a battleship if they use proper tactics. Virtually all First Person Shooter games are considered skill-based (cheaters aside...I saw that earlier aimbot comment
) because of the hand-eye coordination and tactical coordination needed to do well in them.
Where's the any key?