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What is "skill" based combat?

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  • seraphynxseraphynx Newport News, VAPosts: 147Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
     

     

    "my point is ALL MMOs require skill to play well"

    No one is arguing that "only MMO with Feature X requires skill." 

    actually many people on these forums have said many many times tab target games require zero skill or only action based games require skill i see it all the time

  • PoporiPopori Hickory Grove, SCPosts: 334Member
    I never do well in pvp so I just assume all MMOs are luck based.
  • nomotagnomotag Posts: 131Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Popori
    I never do well in pvp so I just assume all MMOs are luck based.

    Most of the time PVP is skill based, but always in the way people think. The skill on display in PVP is deception. A core elment  of PVP is if your in a far fight, you have lost, so a good deal of it is trying to avoid fights with someone stronger then you well trying to pray on thous weaker then you and for that you can employ all kinds of mental tricks.

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,494Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Niburu
    Darkfall Unholy Wars is Skillbased

    Might want to check out this thread

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5962367#5962367

  • prowesssprowesss St. Louis, MOPosts: 69Member
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by Niburu
    Darkfall Unholy Wars is Skillbased

    Might want to check out this thread

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5962367#5962367

    Saying that there's rampant cheating in DF right now is absolutely ignorant...  A game with rampant cheating: ESO.  A game with half-effective aimbots that used to have a wallhack problem: DFUW.  AV did a bunch of sweeping bans and have been very active in policing these sorts of things...  just trying to discredit a game that stole your lunch money...

    image
    I chose the Xfinity speed test because it does not reveal my ISP.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,633Member Uncommon
    edit: nm. y'all have a great day

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Inf666Inf666 DarmstadtPosts: 508Member

    Skill based combat is when the players personal skills and not his avatars skills and items determine the outcome of a battle.

    For true skill based combat to happen the game must provide mechanics so that players can be catagorized into different skill levels. A player of a lower skill level will lose 75% of all matches against a player of a higher skill level.

    This can be achieved by providing many dimensions with equal impact to combat such as

    - aiming

    - dodging / blocking

    - timing and reflexes

    - tactical and strategical knowledge

    - gear

    - resource management

    - skill management

    - dimensions of movement (2D vs 3D vs 4D)

    - foresight and preparedness

    - teamplay

    - understanding of probability

    Combat with tab-targeting usually has a lower amount of combat dimensions than twitch based combat. Unluckily the developers always seem to use tab-targeting in games whenever they want to remove personal player skill from the game. This has caused tab-targeting to be considered an indicator for a non skill based game. Games like dark souls beg to differ.

    ---
    Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,572Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by seraphynx
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
     

     

    "my point is ALL MMOs require skill to play well"

    No one is arguing that "only MMO with Feature X requires skill." 

    actually many people on these forums have said many many times tab target games require zero skill or only action based games require skill i see it all the time

    TBH, I don't actually class aiming in most computer games a skill. Well not like aiming in sports like Archery, Darts or even attempting a field goal.

    Maybe if the game actually takes into consideration recoil on weapons and the such.

    Also, in FPS I find its more luck based than skill. Unless your playing pro.

     

    You could actually argue that selecting certain cells in Excel takes skill. If you added a time constraint.

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  • Inf666Inf666 DarmstadtPosts: 508Member
    Originally posted by immodium
    ...

    TBH, I don't actually class aiming in most computer games a skill. Well not like aiming in sports like Archery, Darts or even attempting a field goal.

    Maybe if the game actually takes into consideration recoil on weapons and the such.

    Also, in FPS I find its more luck based than skill. Unless your playing pro.

     

    You could actually argue that selecting certain cells in Excel takes skill. If you added a time constraint.

    I agree, without constraints aiming at a static target (excel cells) is easy and can be done by anyone.

    In a game scenario on the other hand you never have the time to just aim. You have to move in relation to your opponent. You have to observe your opponent and shoot at the right time. You have to change your movement when your opponent is firing. And while doing so you have to control your recoil and stay aware of the game situation. Aiming suddenly becomes a monumental task.

    The point is, the more tasks someone has to perform at once the more skill-based does the game become. Thats why tab targeting and too much roll dice is so bad. It relieves you of so many tasks that the combat becomes easy.

    Btw. what do you mean by luck? Aiming and recoil compensation is not luck. It is simply something you have to learn if you want to become a better player.

    ---
    Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

  • free2playfree2play Toronto, ONPosts: 1,868Member Uncommon

    I've never participated in a skill based combat system in a video game. It's the limitation of static mechanics.

  • seraphynxseraphynx Newport News, VAPosts: 147Member
    Originally posted by Inf666

    Skill based combat is when the players personal skills and not his avatars skills and items determine the outcome of a battle.

    For true skill based combat to happen the game must provide mechanics so that players can be catagorized into different skill levels. A player of a lower skill level will lose 75% of all matches against a player of a higher skill level.

    This can be achieved by providing many dimensions with equal impact to combat such as

    - aiming

    - dodging / blocking

    - timing and reflexes

    - tactical and strategical knowledge

    - gear

    - resource management

    - skill management

    - dimensions of movement (2D vs 3D vs 4D)

    - foresight and preparedness

    - teamplay

    - understanding of probability

    Combat with tab-targeting usually has a lower amount of combat dimensions than twitch based combat. Unluckily the developers always seem to use tab-targeting in games whenever they want to remove personal player skill from the game. This has caused tab-targeting to be considered an indicator for a non skill based game. Games like dark souls beg to differ.

    generally tab targets have more types of skills though.. more types of buffs more types of debuffs more types of status effects.. With action based games the skillsets are generally also greatly limited. So depending on the game it can even out if you have to keep track of a ton of different abilities and types of abilities or in another game you may only have to keep track of a small amount but more twitch stuff..

  • syriinxsyriinx New York, NYPosts: 1,059Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Inf666

    Skill based combat is when the players personal skills and not his avatars skills and items determine the outcome of a battle.

    For true skill based combat to happen the game must provide mechanics so that players can be catagorized into different skill levels. A player of a lower skill level will lose 75% of all matches against a player of a higher skill level.

    This can be achieved by providing many dimensions with equal impact to combat such as

    - aiming

    - dodging / blocking

    - timing and reflexes

    - tactical and strategical knowledge

    - gear

    - resource management

    - skill management

    - dimensions of movement (2D vs 3D vs 4D)

    - foresight and preparedness

    - teamplay

    - understanding of probability

    Combat with tab-targeting usually has a lower amount of combat dimensions than twitch based combat. Unluckily the developers always seem to use tab-targeting in games whenever they want to remove personal player skill from the game. This has caused tab-targeting to be considered an indicator for a non skill based game. Games like dark souls beg to differ.

    The funny thing is that people point to a feature such as aiming or dodging and say 'this game takes more skill than tab target'.

     

    High end content, especially in PvP but also in PvE, takes more skill in WoW than it does in TERA.  The reason being is that many of these dimensions you listed above are amplified in WoW because of the greater depth of the combat system.  Especially tactical/strategical knowledge and teamwork.

     

    Of course both games have drastically different difficulty curves: a 'keyboard turner' isn't going to be able to do much of anything in TERA.  But at the high end WoW requires more skill than TERA because there is more to consider.

     

    And gear matters to an extent, but within reason skill > gear and its not even close.  Most MMOs are like this though.

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,572Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Inf666

    Btw. what do you mean by luck? Aiming and recoil compensation is not luck. It is simply something you have to learn if you want to become a better player.

    Actually, the luck thing is more about the skill of the individual rather than the game mechanics at hand so ignore that. :)

     

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  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quesa

    This is another term such as 'sandbox' which has an ever changing definition and is probably more of a philosophy of game/combat design than anything else.

    I would propose that any game which pits players versus other players has skill-based combat.  Despite those games which rely heavily on gear level and stats have skill-based combat because there are still aspects of the engagement that come down to one player's familiarity of their class/skills/system that gives them an edge.

     

    More often than not, 'skill-based' is used to belittle another's choice in gameplay or game.

    This sums up what I was going to say.

    image

  • seraphynxseraphynx Newport News, VAPosts: 147Member
    Originally posted by MMOExposed
    Originally posted by Quesa

    This is another term such as 'sandbox' which has an ever changing definition and is probably more of a philosophy of game/combat design than anything else.

    I would propose that any game which pits players versus other players has skill-based combat.  Despite those games which rely heavily on gear level and stats have skill-based combat because there are still aspects of the engagement that come down to one player's familiarity of their class/skills/system that gives them an edge.

     

    More often than not, 'skill-based' is used to belittle another's choice in gameplay or game.

    This sums up what I was going to say.

    I agree as well

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,572Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by syriinx
    Originally posted by Inf666

    Skill based combat is when the players personal skills and not his avatars skills and items determine the outcome of a battle.

    For true skill based combat to happen the game must provide mechanics so that players can be catagorized into different skill levels. A player of a lower skill level will lose 75% of all matches against a player of a higher skill level.

    This can be achieved by providing many dimensions with equal impact to combat such as

    - aiming

    - dodging / blocking

    - timing and reflexes

    - tactical and strategical knowledge

    - gear

    - resource management

    - skill management

    - dimensions of movement (2D vs 3D vs 4D)

    - foresight and preparedness

    - teamplay

    - understanding of probability

    Combat with tab-targeting usually has a lower amount of combat dimensions than twitch based combat. Unluckily the developers always seem to use tab-targeting in games whenever they want to remove personal player skill from the game. This has caused tab-targeting to be considered an indicator for a non skill based game. Games like dark souls beg to differ.

    The funny thing is that people point to a feature such as aiming or dodging and say 'this game takes more skill than tab target'.

     

    All it means is that using a mouse to point at things on a monitor is a skill. FPS games are the epitome of skilled based combat.

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  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,117Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by Utinni
    This is just another buzzword people use to make themselves feel better. I can't think of an MMO pvp system that really takes skill. Most telegraphs are super simple to land, and almost all games work off of a system where you have a reaction for every reaction, similar to baseball.

    It's not a buzzword, and it's not something to be offended by either.

    A game being 'skill-based' isn't a snipe at people playing 'non-skill-based' games. All it refers to is what the primary determining factor is for success / victory / winning a game. All games have varying degrees of skill. That is not what is being debated.

    When someone says a game is 'skill-based' they mean the game primarily defers to player skill when determining outcome. There are quite obvious examples of both skill, and non-skill based games. And there are some that fall within the grey area in between (like MOBAs).

    It's very hard to argue that some MMOs (like WoW) are mostly determined by player skill, when the power creep between gear is so insanely huge, that it is now at the point where a newer WoW player is doing thousands of damage, while a fully decked out vet is doing 100s of thousands if not millions of damage. Other MMOs (primarily newer ones), not only try to minimize these gear differentials, but they also allow for players to mitigate much of what an enemy is doing to them via proper timing, positioning, aiming, etc.

    That is the very definition of 'skill', not who has the better legendaries. This doesn't mean that a game like WoW  doesn't have a certain degree of skill, but rather that it is not the primary determining factor. It doesn't matter how skilled you are in WoW, you aren't doing top-tier endgame raids in white gear. It's mathematically impossible. Same in PvP. However in a skill based game it can be possible, through proper timing, positioning, aiming, etc. And indeed, in games like GW2 i have beaten less skilled higher lvl (and better geared) players as crappy underleveled / undergeared toons.

    The problem really lies in what type of game you prefer.  RPG's are suppose to be about the character, not so much the player.  FPS and RTS are suppose to be about player twitch skills or tactical thinking on the fly.  I'm rather irritated that the industry continues down the road of bastardizing RPG's in order to satisfy customers that should be playing some other type of game.  Even that wouldn't be an issue if they at least offered just as many of each with every new wave of games, but the unfortunate result of bandwagoning means that almost every single new release year sees too many of one style and not enough if any of the other.

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  • QuesaQuesa Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,246Member

     


    Originally posted by immodium
    All it means is that using a mouse to point at things on a monitor is a skill. FPS games are the epitome of skilled based combat. 
     I would argue exactly the opposite. In an FPS, you're generally only concerned with putting your reticle over a hostile target with little else to micro-manage. 

    Just because one can move their mouse faster doesn't mean they have more skill than another, it just means they can physically react or has the proper muscle memory to do so faster than another guy.

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,288Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quesa

     


    Originally posted by immodium
    All it means is that using a mouse to point at things on a monitor is a skill. FPS games are the epitome of skilled based combat. 

     I would argue exactly the opposite. In an FPS, you're generally only concerned with putting your reticle over a hostile target with little else to micro-manage. 

     

    Just because one can move their mouse faster doesn't mean they have more skill than another, it just means they can physically react or has the proper muscle memory to do so faster than another guy.

    You might want to try Planetside 2, it really is more than just pointing a mouse at somebody, it involves teamwork, tactics and being able to adapt rapidly to a changing battlefield, and those things really are a measure of player skills rather than ability to 'point a mouse' but even that is really just the tip of the iceberg.image

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,572Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quesa

     


    Originally posted by immodium
    All it means is that using a mouse to point at things on a monitor is a skill. FPS games are the epitome of skilled based combat. 

     I would argue exactly the opposite. In an FPS, you're generally only concerned with putting your reticle over a hostile target with little else to micro-manage. 

     

    Just because one can move their mouse faster doesn't mean they have more skill than another, it just means they can physically react or has the proper muscle memory to do so faster than another guy.

    But that's the only difference between the action combat that's being labeled as skill based and tab-targeting.

    When people use the word skill I think they actually mean reaction based combat. Skill is all about the individual, not the mechanics.

     

    I agree with you btw.

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  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,572Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by Quesa

     


    Originally posted by immodium
    All it means is that using a mouse to point at things on a monitor is a skill. FPS games are the epitome of skilled based combat. 

     I would argue exactly the opposite. In an FPS, you're generally only concerned with putting your reticle over a hostile target with little else to micro-manage. 

     

    Just because one can move their mouse faster doesn't mean they have more skill than another, it just means they can physically react or has the proper muscle memory to do so faster than another guy.

    You might want to try Planetside 2, it really is more than just pointing a mouse at somebody, it involves teamwork, tactics and being able to adapt rapidly to a changing battlefield, and those things really are a measure of player skills rather than ability to 'point a mouse' but even that is really just the tip of the iceberg.image

    The same can be said about tab-target combat systems.

    Teamwork, check.

    Tactics, check.

    And adapting to a dynamic battlefield, check.

    image
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,633Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by immodium

    The same can be said about tab-target combat systems.

    Teamwork, check.

    Tactics, check.

    And adapting to a dynamic battlefield, check.

    Which MMOs with tab-targetting offer dynamic battlefields? To be clear, I'm not trying to suggest there aren't any, I am asking which ones have them. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,572Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by immodium

    The same can be said about tab-target combat systems.

    Teamwork, check.

    Tactics, check.

    And adapting to a dynamic battlefield, check.

    Which MMOs with tab-targetting offer dynamic battlefields? To be clear, I'm not trying to suggest there aren't any, I am asking which ones have them. 

    I'm mainly referring to PvP and probably a very loose definition of the term. :)

    SWTOR warzones for me feel dynamic as It's PvP, and depending on who I'm fighting and how they fight I have to adapt accordingly. It's still a battlefield, just a small one.

    Theres nothing stopping a dev to implement a dynamic battlefield on a larger scale with tab-targeting though.

    What phry lists are more about the strategy side of the combat. Which can include tab-targeting.

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,633Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by immodium
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by immodium

    The same can be said about tab-target combat systems.

    Teamwork, check.

    Tactics, check.

    And adapting to a dynamic battlefield, check.

    Which MMOs with tab-targetting offer dynamic battlefields? To be clear, I'm not trying to suggest there aren't any, I am asking which ones have them. 

    I'm mainly referring to PvP and probably a very loose definition of the term. :)

    SWTOR warzones for me feel dynamic as It's PvP, and depending on who I'm fighting and how they fight I have to adapt accordingly. It's still a battlefield, just a small one.

    Theres nothing stopping a dev to implement a dynamic battlefield on a larger scale with tab-targeting though.

    What phry lists are more about the strategy side of the combat. Which can include tab-targeting.

    Thanks, Immodium. I have to fire up SWTOR again and give that a try. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,540Member Uncommon

    If SW:TOR battlefields are dynamic, then WoW's BGs are too.

    Oh and btw... GW2 has the hated "tab targetting" yet WvW is definitely dynamic.

    I actually don't understand the argument here... I don't see how dynamic is incompatible with tab targetting.

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