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Now Safe For Wallet

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  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,288Member Uncommon

    F2P + Cash Shops = Pay Walls.

    either you pay nothing, and accept that a number of 'fun' features are not going to be open to you. Or you pay to unlock or access them.

    For anyone not wanting to look like just about every other player in the game, alternative appearances/gear etc. behind a pay wall.

    Crafting is often nerfed or lacking signficant parts, full Crafting is usually behind a pay wall.

    XP gains are often very low, unless, you guessed it, XP boosters are also, behind a pay wall.

     

    F2P usually means, you can freely play the game, but in order to do anything meaningful ..$$$$$$$.

    Its often the case when you consider 2 games alongside each other, that in order to enable game play in a F2P game, that is comparable to that obtained in a P2P game, you may have to pay more, sometimes considerably more. The number of F2P games that don't fall into that category are very very few. image

     

    Now safe for wallet is an extremely bold claim.image

  • KilrainKilrain Prineville, ORPosts: 684Member Uncommon
    All depends on how the cash shop is built tbh. I've been playing APB:reloaded for a few YEARS (3ish) now and I think I've spent less than $200 total.

    professional web programming and design.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Robokapp Originally posted by DamonVile Originally posted by Arclan Originally posted by Robokapp if you're big, covered in tatoos, have a group of friends and all are very muscular you can walk through just about any neighborhood at night and be safe. Doesn't make that neighborhood safe though...
    Excellent analogy. Safe for you doesn't mean safe for all.
    What is safe for all ?
    Strawman.
    It's hard to have a strawman when the original analogy was pointless and irrelevant. Please do explain how the analogy applies to payments being optional and the ability to maintain self-control when spending money. Then analogy itself is a red herring.

    I thought the title of this thread was "Now Safe for Wallet," which suggets safe for 'all' wallets; and Robokapp appropriately pointed out that it's not. So in fact, the only red herring here is Torvaldr's reply.

    Beatnik59, you da man. Thanks.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • besteverbestever prescott, AZPosts: 732Member
    Originally posted by Phry

    F2P + Cash Shops = Pay Walls.

    either you pay nothing, and accept that a number of 'fun' features are not going to be open to you. Or you pay to unlock or access them.

    For anyone not wanting to look like just about every other player in the game, alternative appearances/gear etc. behind a pay wall.

    Crafting is often nerfed or lacking signficant parts, full Crafting is usually behind a pay wall.

    XP gains are often very low, unless, you guessed it, XP boosters are also, behind a pay wall.

     

    F2P usually means, you can freely play the game, but in order to do anything meaningful ..$$$$$$$.

    Its often the case when you consider 2 games alongside each other, that in order to enable game play in a F2P game, that is comparable to that obtained in a P2P game, you may have to pay more, sometimes considerably more. The number of F2P games that don't fall into that category are very very few. image

     

    Now safe for wallet is an extremely bold claim.image

    Well Trion has done nothing you state with Rift so that's a good starting point. Same will go for Defiance. 

    Defiance has DLC but they didn't block the content for non paying players just like Rift. Its been that way from the get go.

    Really the only thing you would need to buy in defiance would be bag slots as always and maybe a cool looking car if you really wanted it other then that you can play the game for FREE. It wouldn't hurt to buy the season pass to support the game if you like it, you get some bonuses but nothing all that special.

    So yes Trion does a great job with F2P and has never even been close to P2W.

  • apocolusterapocoluster newport news, VAPosts: 1,321Member Uncommon
      I wish their cash shop had something to buy in it.  It was the same problem I had with giving them money in the first place.  Im not against cash shops..but I gotta have something i want to buy in it first  to buy first. 

    No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Phry

    F2P + Cash Shops = Pay Walls.

    either you pay nothing, and accept that a number of 'fun' features are not going to be open to you. Or you pay to unlock or access them.

    For anyone not wanting to look like just about every other player in the game, alternative appearances/gear etc. behind a pay wall.

    Crafting is often nerfed or lacking signficant parts, full Crafting is usually behind a pay wall.

    XP gains are often very low, unless, you guessed it, XP boosters are also, behind a pay wall.

     

    F2P usually means, you can freely play the game, but in order to do anything meaningful ..$$$$$$$.

    Its often the case when you consider 2 games alongside each other, that in order to enable game play in a F2P game, that is comparable to that obtained in a P2P game, you may have to pay more, sometimes considerably more. The number of F2P games that don't fall into that category are very very few. image

     

    Now safe for wallet is an extremely bold claim.image

    Then you need to make a decision, is the game fun for you or not?  If not, go play something else.  If you insist on having everything open to you all the time, then F2P isn't for you.  Most people are entirely fine with some things behind pay walls. I've never once in my life felt the need to pay to open a pay wall.  I just consume the content that's available for nothing.

    You sound like someone with no self-control, who has to have everything.  That's a problem with you, not F2P.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • alkarionlogalkarionlog SPosts: 1,124Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Meowhead
    Originally posted by Scot

    Might I coin my own phrase? 'Never Safe For Wallet', that's rather closer to the truth I think.

    Your average user in a F2P game spends considerably less than 5 dollars a month.

    So either you think 5 dollars a month is very unreasonable (And therefore, a subscription is =3= times as unreasonable), or you have an interesting definition of the word 'never'.

    nope, taht is a lie and you know it, if the average would only spend less then 5 dolar sa month we would never have that much games going for F2P, the average spend more then 15 monthly, and we always ahve the competitive crowd who spend a lot more then that to stay on top, course you can argue some don't spend anything, but at the same time some spend well over thousands to keep playing. but tossing that aside, the average is not only 5.

     

    also if what I remember from defiance CS they never really sold anything there, course I would still need to play now, last time I played it was alpha, it was a cool game, some good things other no so much but in overall a nice one, but I enver saw me paying to play a monthly fee plus DLCs around, that never sold to me, I always played the monthly free with expansions happening without extras fees. but I consider this game more like something to pop in do some shooting, maybe hunt some arkfalls and be done, nothing else

    FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.
    image

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Arclan

    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Originally posted by Robokapp

    Originally posted by DamonVile

    Originally posted by Arclan

    Originally posted by Robokapp if you're big, covered in tatoos, have a group of friends and all are very muscular you can walk through just about any neighborhood at night and be safe. Doesn't make that neighborhood safe though...
    Excellent analogy. Safe for you doesn't mean safe for all.
    What is safe for all ?
    Strawman.
    It's hard to have a strawman when the original analogy was pointless and irrelevant. Please do explain how the analogy applies to payments being optional and the ability to maintain self-control when spending money. Then analogy itself is a red herring.

    I thought the title of this thread was "Now Safe for Wallet," which suggets safe for 'all' wallets; and Robokapp appropriately pointed out that it's not. So in fact, the only red herring here is Torvaldr's reply.

    Beatnik59, you da man. Thanks.

    Actually Arclan, Robo made an irrelevant analogy to support his point. He didn't point out or prove anything because personal safety in a crime ridden neighborhood filled with scary stereotypes about people with tattoos has nothing to do with the ability to pay or not pay in a video game.

    Can the game spend your money without your approval? If it can't then you're wallet is safe from theft. Can you play the game without spending money? Are you forced at anytime to part with your money through criminal coercion? How exactly does that criminal safety analogy apply exactly?

    Now if you're trying to posit that the ability to spend money in the game through a shop is unsafe thievery then please be warned about sites like Amazon and stores like Walmart, BestBuy, your local grocery store, NewEgg, and anywhere else you have the option of spending your money because your wallet is obviously not safe anywhere. I believe there are help groups for people with those problems though.

    My original criticism of his poor and baseless analogy stand.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon

    title says "Now safe for wallet".

     

    my argument addressed the safety.

     

    I have a feeling that in the big scary neighborhood your wallet's safety is in question...

     

    image

  • FoobarxFoobarx Poway, CAPosts: 451Member

    My wallet is safe... Trion doesn't know where it is and if I stupidly choose to tell them where it is, that's my fault, not theirs.

     

    Those of you that have this need to purchase your way through a game are the ones with need of a spending limit... not the rest of us.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,290Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by alkarionlog
    Originally posted by Meowhead
    Originally posted by Scot

    Might I coin my own phrase? 'Never Safe For Wallet', that's rather closer to the truth I think.

    Your average user in a F2P game spends considerably less than 5 dollars a month.

    So either you think 5 dollars a month is very unreasonable (And therefore, a subscription is =3= times as unreasonable), or you have an interesting definition of the word 'never'.

    nope, taht is a lie and you know it, if the average would only spend less then 5 dolar sa month we would never have that much games going for F2P, the average spend more then 15 monthly, and we always ahve the competitive crowd who spend a lot more then that to stay on top, course you can argue some don't spend anything, but at the same time some spend well over thousands to keep playing. but tossing that aside, the average is not only 5.

     

    also if what I remember from defiance CS they never really sold anything there, course I would still need to play now, last time I played it was alpha, it was a cool game, some good things other no so much but in overall a nice one, but I enver saw me paying to play a monthly fee plus DLCs around, that never sold to me, I always played the monthly free with expansions happening without extras fees. but I consider this game more like something to pop in do some shooting, maybe hunt some arkfalls and be done, nothing else

    Actually it's been shown on many different stats, many different times though many different companies and is right.  The average user spends very little.  The mode spend nothing, average is a little, and a tiny fraction spend a lot.

    2 million at an average of $5/month is far far far more than 200,000 at $15/month.

    Again the stats have been reported here many times.

    Use swtor's last stats as an example.  2 million f2p and 500,000 subs.  $300 million in the CS alone.  We'll just use f2p because subs scew it a bit but see edit below.  $150 million / 2 million = $150/year = $12.50 per month Average Revenue Per User.  Not the $5 stated but less than $15.

    - Edit - undoubtedly many of the subs bought in the CS as well making it more than 2 million players so they paid even less.  But counting the subs as well makes things murky.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Foomerang

    I don't understand. So are they admitting that Defiance, up to this point, has been a rip off? Because if it is Now Safe For Wallets, doesn't that imply that it was not safe before?

    Yes. And what is the problem of admitting that if they are going to make more money?

     

    long term harm on the industry's image...that's my guess.

     

    I mean what's the problem with smoking if I'm enjoying it?

    Exactly ... if you have full information, and decide that you would rather die young with painful lung cancel in exchange of some enjoyment, what is the problem?

    And it is not like a single company needs to care about the image of the whole industry?

  • Panther2103Panther2103 Edmonds, WAPosts: 2,353Member Uncommon
    Did it even affect the amount of people that are playing the game? It didn't even break the steam top 100 list for being F2P, or is there a lot of people playing the game in the non steam client?
  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,712Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Panther2103
    Did it even affect the amount of people that are playing the game? It didn't even break the steam top 100 list for being F2P, or is there a lot of people playing the game in the non steam client?

    That's the plan I guess, increasing the playerbase. Can't say if it's working or not, haven't played on the last week, but before that date there was a notice-able increase in player count (probably they went back for the Season 2 content like I did). Actually the real influx is gonna happen when the show will launch as well, I think.

    "It didn't even break the steam" can't say either, wasn't in the kitchen today... :) Ok, seriously, folks should finally detach themselves from those crap client/launcher/achievment BS's. Glyph included, might I add.

     

    On a sidenote, the NSFW ad is great, kudos for the marketing team. Just look at this very thread, still going and quoting statistics etc., under an f2p model which has none of those issues peeps are mentioning. I'm not saying those are invalid facts or arguments, just that those are not fit for Defiance's model. And still, the thread is rolling on, just because of the NSFW. Great job, Trion :)

  • versulasversulas None of your damn business, WAPosts: 286Member Uncommon

    Defiance f2p is pretty decent so far. Still buggy as hell and the new model attracts a lot of hackers in pvp, but I haven't felt the need to pay for the minor gain to exp/resources or extra char/loadout slots that the patron pass gives. 

     

    That said, you could pick up Defiance before the conversion for $3 at gamestop and they had a free trial. If that didn't attract the impulse buyers, I don't know how successful this is going to be, especially after they stated that new DLC content would be free.

    They can't exactly stick new classes behind a $50 paywall like they do in Rift this time ;P Unique-looking costumes, guns, and cars can probably keep it afloat, but they're going to need to entice people with something to start generating real profit.

     

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,751Member Uncommon

    Certainly some cash shops are better than others, we have all seen that. It was more the basic idea that a cash shop could be safe for wallets that I found rather amusing.

    For all I know Defiance will not be a huge offender in the scamming that we see in many cash shops, this was about the statement not that MMO.

    The general trend in cash shops over the years has been getting worse. Has any on here not seen how they mostly start well and end up selling must have, gameplay altering items within a year? The gambling on boxes, stars, diamonds or whatever, they often become casinos in all but name.

    I don't think of the posters on here as the kind of person who presses YES before thinking, but you don't have to be stupid to do so. We have had many threads from posters on how they have been caught out. It is usually a 'once bittern' story, they may know never to go down that route again but had their wallet hit bad in the process. An assumption we make is that they are our age, these are often going to be guys in their teens. If you had been tempted like that then, can you say you would not be spending your parents money?

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,712Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot

    For all I know Defiance will not be a huge offender in the scamming that we see in many cash shops, this was about the statement not that MMO.

    The general trend in cash shops over the years has been getting worse. Has any on here not seen how they mostly start well and end up selling must have, gameplay altering items within a year?

    Yep, that's why I wrote that it was a great ad campaign idea, the statement itself bring in lots of emotions, raising different  opinions, etc.

    As for the "cash shops within a year" part, Defiance was b2p, with a cash shop, for a year :) and I don't see any game-breaking stuff in it, which means a lot, considering it's a shooter. Shooters are the weakest in this subject, shooters are slipping towards p2w easily, it's almost a built-in feature... "shooter with cash shop? lol, I'm sure it's massive p2w" is a common belief, and for the most cases it's a true one.

     

    Defiance's f2p is simply remove the mandatory box purchase and giving the game for free. No changes in the mechanics, the shop is the same (cosmetics and convenience) as it was. For former players, there's the option now to get Patron boosts, and for newcomers there are a few restrictions, but nothing that would affect their gameplay. It's pretty much as cool as Rift's model was.

    edit: just for the record, I'm not a fan, I've played maybe 2-3 months total with Defiance :) I just acknowledge Trion's work with the model.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by versulas

    They can't exactly stick new classes behind a $50 paywall like they do in Rift this time ;P Unique-looking costumes, guns, and cars can probably keep it afloat, but they're going to need to entice people with something to start generating real profit.

     

    The question is whether it is actually a good shooter. There are so many f2p shooters out there that they need a compelling reason to attract an audience.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,290Member Uncommon
    I can honestly say my parents wouldn't have let me send their money.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,290Member Uncommon
    Err spend

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,712Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    The question is whether it is actually a good shooter. There are so many f2p shooters out there that they need a compelling reason to attract an audience.

    It's pretty good actually. HL did a nice fun video of the game a year ago: http://youtu.be/ryzJnhgtNQU

    And if you want a fresh f2p review, mmohut made one after the f2p switch. It's more or less accurate and focusing onto the review itself, so no jokes on the side like in HL's case :)  http://youtu.be/GvGKlSRagD0

     

    Imo it's better than Firefall. Can't compare it to PS2 directly because that's full-on pvp, while Defiance is pve and story-focused. I had much more fun in Defiance, but for the shooter part I think it's not better, just on par (or a bit below) with PS2. But it has much better guns :) and you can roam around in vehicles without blowing up in every minute. True, only on ground, there are no air travel / combat in Defiance (not game issue, it's in the lore, besides some low-altitude carriers everyone is travelling on the wheels).

  • lunatiquezlunatiquez San Fransisco, CAPosts: 381Member
    Originally posted by Aeonblades
    While I agree with the OP that most F2P games are highway robbery style business models such as NW, GW2, LOTRO, SWTOR, etc. Rift is actually the only F2P game I have played where spending no money at all was completely viable. If anyone can do F2P right, it's Trion. It's one of their few remaining strong suits.

    I can't comprehend how is GW2 a F2P robbery. I spent 2000+ hours in the game without spending a cash at all and I have my legendary.

     

    On topic. Defiance is fine as F2P, you can also upgrade your free account to owner with only $9. Owner status is permanent.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,751Member Uncommon

    Maybe it is because you spent 2000+ hours in game that you have you legendary and never spent any cash? Many players take the short cut route and pay. Also 'on topic', I was not making a thread about Defiance, I don't have a clue what its cash shop is like, it is just the slogan that made me laugh.

    I am not sure that Shooters are worse than MMO's, they don't have gambling for example. It does very much depend on the MMO, but over time the more decent cash shops always go sour. Lotro is a case in point, one of the best cash shops which inside two years became an example of bad practice.

    Most people thought Rift had a good cash shop, yet a poster on here says that classes are now behind a 50$ paywall? They never stay decent guys that's the problem.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Scot

     

    Most people thought Rift had a good cash shop, yet a poster on here says that classes are now behind a 50$ paywall? They never stay decent guys that's the problem.

    Nothing stays decent if all it takes is one person telling a half truth to cause it to be judged that way. If putting new content behind a pay wall is considered a sign of a game being deceptive or bad....what does that say about p2p expansions ?

  • Po_ggPo_gg Twigwarren, WestfarthingPosts: 2,712Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Scot

     

    Most people thought Rift had a good cash shop, yet a poster on here says that classes are now behind a 50$ paywall? They never stay decent guys that's the problem.

    Nothing stays decent if all it takes is one person telling a half truth to cause it to be judged that way. If putting new content behind a pay wall is considered a sign of a game being deceptive or bad....what does that say about p2p expansions ?

    +1.

    Rift has no 'classes', just souls. With the SL expansion (which you don't get automatically as a free player) the game got 4 additional souls. Then in last May, with BB update/dlc/mini-expansion arrived 4 more souls.

    It's not for free obviously, and as DamonVile wrote it says nothing about deceptive or foul practice... also not sure about that 50, I think it's somewhere around 20-25 dollars/euros. Standard dlc / expansion price I guess.

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