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Things game companies need to understand

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  • BenediktBenedikt PraguePosts: 1,406Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    but as I have said...please read carefully....if the flavor of kool aid hasn't been on the market how do you know people do not like it?

    What was the last AAA game that didn't involve killing?....exactly.

    sorry, but what is better "proof"

    "there are no aaa games w/o killing" => people want such game

    or

    "there are no aaa games w/o killing" and people massively buy the ones about killing => people want games about killing

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk

    Maybe they should create Paperboy Online? Or Wallstreet Kid Online? 

    boardgame designers understand there's a variety of gamestyles

     

    introduction to the boardgame hobby

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVeqJPPc09c

     

    videogames will hopefully get better

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member


    Originally posted by Benedikt

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD but as I have said...please read carefully....if the flavor of kool aid hasn't been on the market how do you know people do not like it? What was the last AAA game that didn't involve killing?....exactly.
    sorry, but what is better "proof" "there are no aaa games w/o killing" => people want such game or "there are no aaa games w/o killing" and people massively buy the ones about killing => people want games about killing

    I have said the same thing more than three times now and everyone is ignoring it.

    You eat what is served, not what you want.

     

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    I've driven a car for decades I must be an expert on hot to design one. I've used my body for decades Imust be an expert in how it functions. I've watched tv for decades I must be an expert in tv programming.

    Observing or even using something for long periods of time does not make you an expert in anything more than how you use that product

    you dont have to build a car yourself to know what good design changes are needed. In fact those two skill sets are COMPLETELY different.

    When was the last time you saw an architect actually building a building?

     

     

    Playing games doesn't make you an architect, designing them does. Building them makes you a programmer. What you are is a guy that's lived in a building and doesn't like where they put the stairs.

    It's a good thing to ask for features in mmos and to express your desires in what you'd like to play. It's another to start telling them you know more about what makes a good game because you've played them before. That would make everyone an expert here...and I think we both know how untrue that is from just reading the forums.

    the point here is that you might have a great idea on how to build some great stairs BUT YOU DONT HAVE TO BUILD AN ENTIRE BUILDING TO HAVE A GOOD IDEA ABOUT STAIRS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • BenediktBenedikt PraguePosts: 1,406Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nadia
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk

    Maybe they should create Paperboy Online? Or Wallstreet Kid Online? 

    boardgame designers understand there's a variety of gamestyles

     

    introduction to the boardgame hobby

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVeqJPPc09c

     

    videogames will hopefully get better

    so do video game designers, its only that gamers are demanding so insanely huge production values, that the companies who aim for those top games need to have outside investors and therefore mitigate risk as much as possible, usually by copying something that already was released and successful

    edit:

    there is actually a big variety of video games as well, they are just make on small budget by independent designers who dont need big revenue because they dont spend big money on production values.

  • BenediktBenedikt PraguePosts: 1,406Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

     


    Originally posted by Benedikt

    Originally posted by SEANMCAD but as I have said...please read carefully....if the flavor of kool aid hasn't been on the market how do you know people do not like it? What was the last AAA game that didn't involve killing?....exactly.
    sorry, but what is better "proof" "there are no aaa games w/o killing" => people want such game or "there are no aaa games w/o killing" and people massively buy the ones about killing => people want games about killing

     

    I have said the same thing more than three times now and everyone is ignoring it.

    You eat what is served, not what you want.

     

    you appearently dont understand my point

    you are saying that people dont play games w/o killing just because there are none. but then if there are none, then it means you dont have any proof of that.

    on the other had, they play games about killing in masses, therefore it is proof they they either want them, or at least are willing to pay for them, which is what any industry is about.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by Benedikt
    Originally posted by Nadia

    boardgame designers understand there's a variety of gamestyles

    so do game designers, its only that gamers are demanding so insanely huge production values, that the companies who aim for those top games need to have outside investors and therefore mitigate risk as much as possible, usually by copying something that already was released and successful

    true - i agree, and that poses a greater challenge to production

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONPosts: 2,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by Benedikt
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Things gamers need to understand:

    Not in order

    -Gaming is an industry about making money, just like any other industry. if something worked once, it is more safe for investors to have it remade again then to try something new.

    -There is more to gaming the killing, but it is still what average gamer is most interested in.

    -There is more to RPG then fantasy, but fantasy RPGs still enjoy biggest success.

    -Its cheaper to make a good game then it is to advertise a mediocre game, but mediocre game with good marketing will make you more money.

    -classes and quests where a great concept in the 70s but while some gamers think that it's time to move on to skill based systems, average gamer still prefers classes and quests.

    -if it looks like its popular chances are the popularity (like bow ties) is going to die, but it is still more popular than anything else out there.

    -Gaming should be looked at as a hobby.

    -There is more money to be lost in innovation then there is advertising and convincing the public of your non-innovative agenda. (This is true for most industries though)

     

    fixed

    I agree with some of that but I tkool aid however I dont think the average gamer just wants killing and quests.

    If the average gamer is drinking the only kool aid in the store it doesnt mean he is not intrested in a new flavor he hadnt thought of. 

    In many respects if you want to play any video game you have to kill.

    Speaking for myself I have killed far more in games then I care to.

    I think that they tried to make Bible Chronicles. It didn't work.

     

    Maybe they should create Paperboy Online? Or Wallstreet Kid Online? 

    what the actual f*ck?!!!!

    killing or bible chronicles?

    oh man...

    ok how about Kerbal Space Program? Sims?

    but as I have said...please read carefully....if the flavor of kool aid hasn't been on the market how do you know people do not like it?

    What was the last AAA game that didn't involve killing?....exactly.

    Sims Online, Sim City Online, Spore (arguably), Second Life

     

    As far as the flavor of kool aid goes, just because there isn't a diarrhea flavor of cool aid doesn't mean someone should make one. On top of that, if kool aid told you that to make this flavor it would cost you $30 million dollars, do you think you could sell enough to get your money back? You don't need to be a CEO to figure out those numbers. 

     

    You obviously think game developers are stupid. I've worked with a number of business development managers in the gaming industry in the past, but my introduction to them was that they really didn't care about my "ideas". They'd heard them all before. "A dime a dozen" is the term one used, actually. All your talk about the theoretical mountains of money that there is to be made with these games will fall on deaf ears, because they're stuffed full of REAL money they are making from REAL games that have proven track records. 

     

    Time is finite. It's the reason that we all don't simply work at McDonalds. I mean if you could make 6-figures making fries at McDonalds, who wouldn't? I mean all the fries you can eat?!?!? No, you need to maximize the return on investment of your own time. A game company is no different. They have finite resources and want to focus on maximizing their return on investment in those resources. Once and a whlie, you might get skunkworks projects (like H1Z1?), but in the gaming industry these are rare, rare, rare activities. How H1Z1 was done boggles my mind. Hopefully means Sony is going to be doing more innovative work in the future. 

     

    In summary, everything you think you know has been thrown around a boardroom a thousand times and shot down more than Bubba at the local strip joint on a Friday night. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    I've driven a car for decades I must be an expert on hot to design one. I've used my body for decades Imust be an expert in how it functions. I've watched tv for decades I must be an expert in tv programming.

    Observing or even using something for long periods of time does not make you an expert in anything more than how you use that product

    you dont have to build a car yourself to know what good design changes are needed. In fact those two skill sets are COMPLETELY different.

    When was the last time you saw an architect actually building a building?

     

     

    Playing games doesn't make you an architect, designing them does. Building them makes you a programmer. What you are is a guy that's lived in a building and doesn't like where they put the stairs.

    It's a good thing to ask for features in mmos and to express your desires in what you'd like to play. It's another to start telling them you know more about what makes a good game because you've played them before. That would make everyone an expert here...and I think we both know how untrue that is from just reading the forums.

    the point here is that you might have a great idea on how to build some great stairs BUT YOU DONT HAVE TO BUILD AN ENTIRE BUILDING TO HAVE A GOOD IDEA ABOUT STAIRS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    So why is this thread not called my ideas about "stairs" instead of things professionals don't know but I do.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    I've driven a car for decades I must be an expert on hot to design one. I've used my body for decades Imust be an expert in how it functions. I've watched tv for decades I must be an expert in tv programming.

    Observing or even using something for long periods of time does not make you an expert in anything more than how you use that product

    you dont have to build a car yourself to know what good design changes are needed. In fact those two skill sets are COMPLETELY different.

    When was the last time you saw an architect actually building a building?

     

     

    Playing games doesn't make you an architect, designing them does. Building them makes you a programmer. What you are is a guy that's lived in a building and doesn't like where they put the stairs.

    It's a good thing to ask for features in mmos and to express your desires in what you'd like to play. It's another to start telling them you know more about what makes a good game because you've played them before. That would make everyone an expert here...and I think we both know how untrue that is from just reading the forums.

    the point here is that you might have a great idea on how to build some great stairs BUT YOU DONT HAVE TO BUILD AN ENTIRE BUILDING TO HAVE A GOOD IDEA ABOUT STAIRS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    So why is this thread not called my ideas about "stairs" instead of things professionals don't know but I do.

    how do you know they don't know it?

    how do you know they do know it?

    why are you having such a hard time understanding?

    why do you think one has to be a creator of something to be good at design when it doesn't work that way in any other area known to mankind?

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk

     

    Sims Online, Sim City Online, Spore (arguably), Second Life

     

    As far as the flavor of kool aid goes, just because there isn't a diarrhea flavor of cool aid doesn't mean someone should make one. On top of that, if kool aid told you that to make this flavor it would cost you $30 million dollars, do you think you could sell enough to get your money back? You don't need to be a CEO to figure out those numbers. 

     

    You obviously think game developers are stupid. I've worked with a number of business development managers in the gaming industry in the past, but my introduction to them was that they really didn't care about my "ideas". They'd heard them all before. "A dime a dozen" is the term one used, actually. All your talk about the theoretical mountains of money that there is to be made with these games will fall on deaf ears, because they're stuffed full of REAL money they are making from REAL games that have proven track records. 

     

    Time is finite. It's the reason that we all don't simply work at McDonalds. I mean if you could make 6-figures making fries at McDonalds, who wouldn't? I mean all the fries you can eat?!?!? No, you need to maximize the return on investment of your own time. A game company is no different. They have finite resources and want to focus on maximizing their return on investment in those resources. Once and a whlie, you might get skunkworks projects (like H1Z1?), but in the gaming industry these are rare, rare, rare activities. How H1Z1 was done boggles my mind. Hopefully means Sony is going to be doing more innovative work in the future. 

     

    In summary, everything you think you know has been thrown around a boardroom a thousand times and shot down more than Bubba at the local strip joint on a Friday night. 

    Let me help you try and contextualize this.

    Have I played the BEST SELLING PC GAME IN WORLD HISTORY...The Sims? YES and I like it.

    Do I play a plenty of other games that have shoot em ups? YES HOWEVER...I wish I had an option to play a game of that high quality GRAPHICS and not have to go around blowing everything up.

     

    I am unclear why this is hard to understand. I as a gamer play games where a lot of killing is involved and its boring me, but why do I play? BECUASE I DONT HAVE ENOUGH OTHER OPTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by CrazKanuk

    Sims Online, Sim City Online, Spore (arguably), Second Life

    Myst used to be insanely popular - also  Portal, Big Planet  (console only)

    the rest i know are indie games

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD

    Not in order

    -Gaming is an innovation industry, if you copy what has been done before you will suffer for it.

    -There is more to gaming the killing

    -There is more to RPG then fantasy

    -Its cheaper to make a good game then it is to advertise a mediocre game

    -classes and quests where a great concept in the 70s but its time to move on to skill based systems.

    -if it looks like its popular chances are the popularity (like bow ties) is about to die.

    -Gaming should be looked at as a service rather than a product

    -There is more money to be made (and at a smaller cost) in innovation then there is advertising and convincing the public of your non-innovative agenda. (This is true for most industries though)

     

    added: ( I can tell I said the same thing more than once above and in so doing I forgot the other items)

    -to pvp you have to dehumanize your opponent which is the same social structures 'clans' take on. If you are in the clan you are good and exceptions are made, If you are out of the clan then you are different. Understanding the social system is important when creating a game. People really pvp for collaboration work

    There's something you (and most gamers) need to realize, and it's a harsh truth. For all the talk, and complaining about a 'lack of innovation' within the gaming industry, we never actually seem to back it up with our wallets. And hate the developers all you want, but games are a business. They need to make money, and the people who make them need to eat and pay bills.

    Here's a video that humorously points out what I'm talking about: Are gamers killing video games?

    It may not have all the facts, and it focuses primarily on consoles, but it does show a pretty jarring base picture for whats actually happening. If you still don't believe it, and want to do your own research, you should. The trend still holds up on PC, and especially with MMOs, as they have (by far) the largest budgets.

    - The one exception to the above data is when a game creates its own market. This is World of Warcraft, League of Legends, Super Mario, Minecraft, etc. etc. All of these games either defined the genre they're in / brought an outside audience into the current genre and changed the field. Furthermore, all of which are significantly more successful than their similar counterparts.

    Many developers, actually do want to make more interesting games. The problem is they ARE listening to us, because they have to. Games are expensive to make, and as such they rely on funding to get them made. This is why things like kickstarter have become so popular for smaller projects. They can work on their passion projects, on a smaller scope, and see upfront how much interest there actually is for their game. Game design is a creative endeavor, and it's extremely boring to have to recreate the same formula over and over again. However, that's what sells, and so that gets dictated as what is 'standard'.

    Hopefully we can change our ways. Hopefully this endless btching on forums will eventually turn into us actually supporting innovation. Instead of us constantly criticizing the games we are paying to not have it.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    I've driven a car for decades I must be an expert on hot to design one. I've used my body for decades Imust be an expert in how it functions. I've watched tv for decades I must be an expert in tv programming.

    Observing or even using something for long periods of time does not make you an expert in anything more than how you use that product

    you dont have to build a car yourself to know what good design changes are needed. In fact those two skill sets are COMPLETELY different.

    When was the last time you saw an architect actually building a building?

     

     

    Playing games doesn't make you an architect, designing them does. Building them makes you a programmer. What you are is a guy that's lived in a building and doesn't like where they put the stairs.

    It's a good thing to ask for features in mmos and to express your desires in what you'd like to play. It's another to start telling them you know more about what makes a good game because you've played them before. That would make everyone an expert here...and I think we both know how untrue that is from just reading the forums.

    the point here is that you might have a great idea on how to build some great stairs BUT YOU DONT HAVE TO BUILD AN ENTIRE BUILDING TO HAVE A GOOD IDEA ABOUT STAIRS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    So why is this thread not called my ideas about "stairs" instead of things professionals don't know but I do.

    how do you know they don't know it?

    how do you know they do know it?

    why are you having such a hard time understanding?

    why do you think one has to be a creator of something to be good at design when it doesn't work that way in any other area known to mankind?

    Because I'm a "designer" in real life and deal with people telling me how to do things all the time. I'm well aware of how the ignorant expert thinks and how sure they always are that their idea will work...until it doesn't. Then they seem to always start asking questions like " you're the expert here why didn't you tell me "

  • Agent_JosephAgent_Joseph SarajevoPosts: 1,069Member Uncommon
    they should stop making some crapy innovations & back to old good gaming school

    only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,900Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Agent_Joseph
    they should stop making some crapy innovations & back to old good gaming school

    We had those games, people bitched about them and abused the freedoms they offered enough,  to have them changed to what we see today.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • silverreignsilverreign Whitehouse, TXPosts: 401Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Not in order-Gaming is an innovation industry, if you copy what has been done before you will suffer for it.-There is more to gaming the killing-There is more to RPG then fantasy-Its cheaper to make a good game then it is to advertise a mediocre game-classes and quests where a great concept in the 70s but its time to move on to skill based systems.-if it looks like its popular chances are the popularity (like bow ties) is about to die.-Gaming should be looked at as a service rather than a product-There is more money to be made (and at a smaller cost) in innovation then there is advertising and convincing the public of your non-innovative agenda. (This is true for most industries though) added: ( I can tell I said the same thing more than once above and in so doing I forgot the other items)-to pvp you have to dehumanize your opponent which is the same social structures 'clans' take on. If you are in the clan you are good and exceptions are made, If you are out of the clan then you are different. Understanding the social system is important when creating a game. People really pvp for collaboration work

    The reason companies follow the same route is because of money. everyone wants innovation. but someone has to come along with enough money to do it and a hefty set of balls willing to lose that money. there is a reason all these mmo's out now r the same. because it works and its not as risky as trying something different. u may know what u want but u need to understand that it isnt as easy as telling someone spend millions on what u think "might" work or b accepted my the mass majority. i dont blame companies for not taking risks. there is a long list of games that have come and gone. those still standing r those that have followed the "proven model".

    image

  • ChannceChannce Sacramento, CAPosts: 570Member
    just like the wave after wave of reality shows and the many remakes of old movies, fresh ideas are not as easy to come up with as people think, or maybe they know they can make a buck this way../shrug.

    When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.

  • mayito7777mayito7777 Saint Cloud, FLPosts: 638Member Uncommon
    The only thing game companies needs to do is to listen to their player base.

    want 7 free days of playing? Try this

    http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,292Member Uncommon
    Because until you actually do create you just think you are good at design. That's the way it works with all other aspects in life. You just think you are good at something until you actually try it and then you understand all or a lot more of the intricacies and realities involved.

    Until then it's just a belief.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by SEANMCAD
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    I've driven a car for decades I must be an expert on hot to design one. I've used my body for decades Imust be an expert in how it functions. I've watched tv for decades I must be an expert in tv programming.

    Observing or even using something for long periods of time does not make you an expert in anything more than how you use that product

    you dont have to build a car yourself to know what good design changes are needed. In fact those two skill sets are COMPLETELY different.

    When was the last time you saw an architect actually building a building?

     

     

    Playing games doesn't make you an architect, designing them does. Building them makes you a programmer. What you are is a guy that's lived in a building and doesn't like where they put the stairs.

    It's a good thing to ask for features in mmos and to express your desires in what you'd like to play. It's another to start telling them you know more about what makes a good game because you've played them before. That would make everyone an expert here...and I think we both know how untrue that is from just reading the forums.

    the point here is that you might have a great idea on how to build some great stairs BUT YOU DONT HAVE TO BUILD AN ENTIRE BUILDING TO HAVE A GOOD IDEA ABOUT STAIRS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    So why is this thread not called my ideas about "stairs" instead of things professionals don't know but I do.

    how do you know they don't know it?

    how do you know they do know it?

    why are you having such a hard time understanding?

    why do you think one has to be a creator of something to be good at design when it doesn't work that way in any other area known to mankind?

    Because I'm a "designer" in real life and deal with people telling me how to do things all the time. I'm well aware of how the ignorant expert thinks and how sure they always are that their idea will work...until it doesn't. Then they seem to always start asking questions like " you're the expert here why didn't you tell me "

    if you are a designer then you know how idiotic is it to suggest one has to be able to build a building in order to be a good architect. That is the silliest thing I have ever heard.

    You don't have to build a car to be a good car designer, same for buildings, same for business models, same for consumer products, same for boats, same for space travel, same for .....well...EVERYTHING

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by Channce
    just like the wave after wave of reality shows and the many remakes of old movies, fresh ideas are not as easy to come up with as people think, or maybe they know they can make a buck this way../shrug.

    the only re-hash fad that i've been enjoying is.... SUPERHERO movies and tv shows are "in"  image

     

    Marvel And Netflix Announce ‘Daredevil,’ ‘Luke Cage,’ and Three More TV Series

    http://www.mtv.com/news/1717021/marvel-netflix-tv-series/

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,292Member Uncommon
    The architect can build the building. They know every aspect of it. Down to where the bolts go. They understand what is involved and are actively involved ib the actual building and yes that often involved picking up the gamer as well.


    You are just some guy who thinks he has a good idea. That's it.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Because until you actually do create you just think you are good at design. That's the way it works with all other aspects in life. You just think you are good at something until you actually try it and then you understand all or a lot more of the intricacies and realities involved.

    Until then it's just a belief.

    pure bullsh*t.

     

    its not true for anything else.

    Architects don't build buildings

    Physicists don't fly space spaceships

    Car designers don't build cars

    computer designers don't build computers

    business consultants don't implemtent their suggestions.

     

    it doesn't work that way in...well...any industry

    Correlation does not imply causation

  • silverreignsilverreign Whitehouse, TXPosts: 401Member Uncommon

    i would like to have the OP put in the situation where he was responsible for millions of investors money. bet he wouldnt b as "innovative" as he would like.

    image

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