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The Most Important Aspect in an MMO and Why Recent Games Have "Failed"

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  • GormogonGormogon Waukegan, ILPosts: 188Member Uncommon

    The fact that TURNIPS is not winning says a lot about how out of touch the people on this site are with today's broader mmropg community.

     

    But really, the mistake is in thinking that today's players want to play the same game indefinitely and be a part of that game's community.  Most of them don't, and the rest of the player base is not large enough to justify large-scale games with today's production costs.   Today's consumer market consists largely of solo gamers whose self-esteem is derived from comparing and showing off their gaming accomplishments to others.  MMORPGs make that possible in a way traditional single player games do not.  These people don't usually want anything to do with you or anyone else (except maybe a few friends) unless perhaps to put you down.  That's not to say they can't be perfectly civil and cooperative; most of them can.  It's just not normally worth their time to go out of their way for it.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Somehow those ducks still managed to get epics and flagged and new flash equipment do someone wad grouping with them. Blacklisting was a myth. It only worked with your particular circle of friends

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • cheyanecheyane Rome Posts: 3,002Member Uncommon
    In Guk I recall players getting turned away for poor reps unless they were a cleric. Dickhead clerics got away with most anything. In the first year before Kunark reputation really mattered things did change later though.

    image

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  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    No they didn't. Eq had to implement a play nice policy after launch people were not paying nice with each other.

    Exactly the point I was making.  People remember things conveniently, they want EQ to be magical but it just wasn't.  It never was.  There were assholes wall to wall, just like there are today.  Nothing has improved and nothing has gotten worse. People are people.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
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  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    No they didn't. Eq had to implement a play nice policy after launch people were not paying nice with each other.

    Exactly the point I was making.  People remember things conveniently, they want EQ to be magical but it just wasn't.  It never was.  There were assholes wall to wall, just like there are today.  Nothing has improved and nothing has gotten worse. People are people.

    I don't.  Communities weren't better because of better players.  They just mattered more and existed for better and world.  But I rather have to deal with assholes then be in a bubble.   There is very little players can do to negatively effect your gameplay.  While griefing sucks going through the motions of playing games that are very predictable, no consequences and generally easy is very boring.  

  • BartDaCatBartDaCat Renton, WAPosts: 819Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jdizzle2k13

    In all honesty, I think the most important aspect in any MMO is different for different people.  But I would say combat.  Since most of my time in an MMO is generally spent fighting something, be it a mob or another player, I want fun combat.  It doesn't matter if I play the game for 3 hours or 3 years.

    I'm not denying the importance of the social aspect of the game.  Heck if it weren't for the friends I made in WoW I most likely wouldn't have played it as long as I have.  I'm just saying that for me, fun combat is important.

    I'd have to agree with you to an extent, because combat does play a major role in almost every other aspect of your "typical" MMORPG; hunting to gather resources, killing for survival in the wild as you explore, and combat for defense and/or pleasure.

     

    To explore what "good" combat consists of is an undertaking in itself.  Do NPC enemies have decent AI to add to the challenge?  Are the combat skills your character possesses aesthetically pleasing?  Do the combat skills your character wields have enough of an impact to both satisfy your play style and your current experience level?  Is the combat balanced?  The list goes on... Even in the single-player, "sleeper hit" survival titles, players are challenged to find and/or craft better equipment to stake more of a claim/survive bigger challenges to their well-being- so, does the gear fit the character, and does that contribute to a perception of "good" combat?  

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by rounner
    Originally posted by DamonVile

    If you forced your friends to hang out with you and socialize would they be your friends.....would they even like you ? Or would they resent the fact that they had to do this just to get what they really want.

    Why do you think forcing people to do it in a game would turn out better ?

    He didn't say friends. Trading doesn't need to be with friends and could even be with enemies. PVP definitely doesn't need to be with friends. Forming alliances and truces in PVP doesn't need to be with friends. Even grouping to do dungeon runs doesn't require having a barbeque afterwards.

    But none of that is socializing, none of that is having a community.  If I go into a store and buy something, I'm not socializing with the cashier. I'm interacting.  I don't have to say three words to them to pay for my purchase.  If that's what people want in a game, okay, I guess.  That's just not what they claim they want.  They want the same kind of community they had in the good old days, but that's gone and will never, ever, ever come back again.  I've explained why many times in the past.

    Honestly, interaction is one of the biggest lacking things in MMORPG's.  Everyone is playing inside of a bubble these days.  Developers stomped out all interactions to prevent bad ones.  So basically you can group and trade with players.  Even most times when you can PvP you can't touch or talk to them outside of defined areas.  I goes along with the whole appeasement trend you have in this genre and maybe in "young" generation period.  

    But there is interaction.  If I sell something to someone, I interact with them.  If I answer someone's question in chat, I'm interacting.  If I join a PUG, I'm interacting.  I'm not socializing with anyone, the second I walk away from them, there is no more interaction.   Developers didn't stomp these things out, players didn't want them.  Developers can't stop people from interacting without making a single-player game where no one has any contact whatsoever with anyone else, ever.  You can group and trade with people if you want.  You're not required to.  People don't generally socialize when they group or trade though, it's a transaction, not a social activity.

    Social activities are no longer important in MMOs.  The vast majority of people don't want to take part in it, that's why developers don't push it.  They cater to the vast majority, always have and always will.

     

    I should be clear there be very little overly negative or positive interaction from players.  They aren't purposely stomping interaction out.  They've done it by convenience and anti-grief tools.  You can't twink a friend or train a mob or steal kill or be competitive over mobs or even PvP without special situations.  

     

    Of course, there is nothing stopping players from seeking groups and other players.  Its limited it.  It just nothing that needs to be done nor efficient to the psychologically driven treadmill.  Its like saying the rats could run the maze to get the food instead of running the straight line to the food.   Choice is there but...

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    No they didn't. Eq had to implement a play nice policy after launch people were not paying nice with each other.

    Exactly the point I was making.  People remember things conveniently, they want EQ to be magical but it just wasn't.  It never was.  There were assholes wall to wall, just like there are today.  Nothing has improved and nothing has gotten worse. People are people.

    And that's the point that seems to be lost on all of this forced grouping nonsense. You can't change the way people are. Forced grouping will only lead to more group but no talking situations.

    The only way you will ever have the social environment you're looking for is to find the like minded people who want the same and create the community you want to be part of. The devs can't and wont do it for you.

  • QuesaQuesa Sacramento, CAPosts: 1,246Member

    Analyzing why games fail yet fail to bring in other key aspects like, crafting/production, trade, and resource gathering.  Lets not even mention that you need all of the features you mentioned, plus the aforementioned, to create an immersive and compelling world not a single aspect of a game.

    Great poll and great insight ... lol.

  • LogicLesterLogicLester Claremont, CAPosts: 68Member

    Wrong.  The most important aspect is FUN for keeping someone playing a game, the most important aspect for getting someone to try your game is FAMILIARITY, the most important aspect for getting someone to still love your game long after it's dropped off the store shelves and the servers were shutdown is NEWNESS.

     

    Fun is obviously completely subjective, but if a player isn't having fun playing your game, they WILL quit playing it.  It doesn't matter what other gimmicks you have.

     

    Familiarity gives a player a sense of reassurance that this game will be something they'll most likely enjoy.  Whether it's the IP, the setting, the graphical style, the developer, etc.

     

    And newness is that je ne sais quoi that we all get from doing something that feels truly new.  Rationally we'll know it doesn't compare well with similar things we try further down the road, but irrationally it was the bomb, none of these newer half-assed "clones" can touch it, and someone should remake the original cause that would be great and we wouldn't get bored of it a few minutes later.

     

    After that comes a hodge podge of other things, yes, one of those is social interaction.  But in the end it's fun that keeps a player, anything else can only hold a player's attention for so long before they quit in disgust to continue chasing the newness dragon.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    No they didn't. Eq had to implement a play nice policy after launch people were not paying nice with each other.

    Exactly the point I was making.  People remember things conveniently, they want EQ to be magical but it just wasn't.  It never was.  There were assholes wall to wall, just like there are today.  Nothing has improved and nothing has gotten worse. People are people.

    And that's the point that seems to be lost on all of this forced grouping nonsense. You can't change the way people are. Forced grouping will only lead to more group but no talking situations.

    The only way you will ever have the social environment you're looking for is to find the like minded people who want the same and create the community you want to be part of. The devs can't and wont do it for you.

     

    I don't think that's really true.  Most games promote anti-social behavior on purpose or not.  You can promote and allow more interactions.  You can setup situations for interaction instead of  tons instances and automated grouping tools.  You can create systems where players rely on each other even beyond combat.  You can create worlds where players can form physical communities.  

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    No they didn't. Eq had to implement a play nice policy after launch people were not paying nice with each other.

    Exactly the point I was making.  People remember things conveniently, they want EQ to be magical but it just wasn't.  It never was.  There were assholes wall to wall, just like there are today.  Nothing has improved and nothing has gotten worse. People are people.

    And that's the point that seems to be lost on all of this forced grouping nonsense. You can't change the way people are. Forced grouping will only lead to more group but no talking situations.

    The only way you will ever have the social environment you're looking for is to find the like minded people who want the same and create the community you want to be part of. The devs can't and wont do it for you.

     

    I don't think that's really true.  Most games promote anti-social behavior on purpose or not.  You can promote and allow more interactions.  You can setup situations for interaction instead of  tons instances and automated grouping tools.  You can create systems where players rely on each other even beyond combat.  You can create worlds where players can form physical communities.  

    That isn't forced grouping though. Creating opportunities to be social will appeal to people who want that. forcing people to do it as the only way to move forward will still have the same negative effects it always has.

    The difference is, people on a forum have no issues driving large numbers of players out of a game if it leaves behind all the people they want to game with. A company on the other hand probably would take exception to doing it.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    No they didn't. Eq had to implement a play nice policy after launch people were not paying nice with each other.

    Exactly the point I was making.  People remember things conveniently, they want EQ to be magical but it just wasn't.  It never was.  There were assholes wall to wall, just like there are today.  Nothing has improved and nothing has gotten worse. People are people.

    And that's the point that seems to be lost on all of this forced grouping nonsense. You can't change the way people are. Forced grouping will only lead to more group but no talking situations.

    The only way you will ever have the social environment you're looking for is to find the like minded people who want the same and create the community you want to be part of. The devs can't and wont do it for you.

     

    I don't think that's really true.  Most games promote anti-social behavior on purpose or not.  You can promote and allow more interactions.  You can setup situations for interaction instead of  tons instances and automated grouping tools.  You can create systems where players rely on each other even beyond combat.  You can create worlds where players can form physical communities.  

    That isn't forced grouping though. Creating opportunities to be social will appeal to people who want that. forcing people to do it as the only way to move forward will still have the same negative effects it always has.

    The difference is, people on a forum have no issues driving large numbers of players out of a game if it leaves behind all the people they want to game with. A company on the other hand probably would take exception to doing it.

     

    Those players seem to be driven out anyway.   Outside of like 5 games this genre is extremely niche in North America.  Other games get the mainstream title because they're the same type of MMORPG as WoW and get bunched in the numbers.   A "niche" game with 250k is still a niche game with 250k even if there are a thousand clones doing the same thing.  

     

    Solo play if the optimal way to play as it is in a vast majority of these games people are going to solo.  It does have to be that way .  The simplest way to encourage playing together is make that way of optimal play.  That just not combat either.

  • darkhalf357xdarkhalf357x Brooklyn, NYPosts: 1,164Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aSynchro

    Too all the people who vote "Combat", why note play LoL or some online FPS then ?

     

    Because, as OP said, the main difference between an MMORPG and other kind of PvP game is the socialisation.

    Because I hate MOBA. And FPS are not RPGs.  I want exactly what the genre is called a MMO*RPG*.

    To flip your question.  To those who voted social aspect why not just play facebook games?  

    Its more complicated than just one aspect.

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by aSynchro

    Too all the people who vote "Combat", why note play LoL or some online FPS then ?

     

    Because, as OP said, the main difference between an MMORPG and other kind of PvP game is the socialisation.

    As if people only play MMORPGs. May be players just want some variety in between ARPGs and try some F2P MMORPGs.

    Don't make it sound like i have to choose between MMORPGs or online FPS. I play whatever i want ... and if MMORPGs have decent combat, i will give it a try.

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,145Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by coventryhagdog

    It's not story.

    It's not soloablity.

    It's the social aspect and how the game can trick you into interacting with others.

    Regardless of how beautifully your world is crafted, it can only be visited once. People play online, because they .....

    This is what YOU think. :-) And wow has become all but social, mainly after LFG tool appeared for the first time if I remember correctly in Wotlk.

    And you need to some degree socialize if interested in Raiding. Now usually in 5 out of 10 5-man runs I'm usually only one to say (macroed) at least "Hi" and at the end "Ty and cya". Rarely any1 care at all for this, just rush through entire instance and then in queue for next one. This part have become really disgusting. Still love LFG, but miss some components of socialization of before. Still ... if I think once took 3 hours and even more of lgh in chat for single run and now between min and max. i.e. half hour ... still prefer to stay with lfg system.

    For me soloability is very high on list. Mainly because I love to quest and at my own pace, not pace of others. When in group tank just charges, healer tries to keep up ... and dps just rush behind. No time to read text from any quest giver, etc. Besides I work, have family, friends, .... Others can afford to be at any time present in game, I can't. And MAJORITY can not. For this reason LFG tool appeared.

    Grouping of course become a must for end game. But 5-mans can be run several times, raiding requires a loooot of free time and at predetermined time. So I gave up long ago.

  • WoeToTheVanquishedWoeToTheVanquished USA #1, ILPosts: 23Member

    I don't even see the selection I wanted on that list. I want difficulty and fulfilling accomplishment in an MMO. Where everything is hard, rare, takes effort, and I expect to be playing for many years. 

  • TheHavokTheHavok San Jose, CAPosts: 2,398Member Uncommon

    The most important aspects:

    It has to be massive.

    It has to be multiplayer.

    It has to be online.

    That's it.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by coventryhagdog

    It's not story.

    It's not soloablity.

    It's the social aspect and how the game can trick you into interacting with others.

    to the genre were all of the tools it made to facilitate interaction, e.g. Group Finder, Guild Finder, etc.

    i initially bought Everquest because it was an online RPG promising content updates

    the social aspect was the farthest from my mind

     

    when playing EQ - it was the combination of adventuring and social that kept me glued to the game

     

    i made a few life long friends from EQ -- i stopped playing years ago but still retain old EQ friends that I visit in real life

    all of my EQ memories are from dungeoning / exploring with other players

     

    only one other game came close to those social memories -- DAOC

     

    when WOW launched,

    many game mechanics were changed for easy travel, easy questing (quest hubs), short term grouping

    WOW was the first mmo i played where groups often lasted less than 20 minutes

     

    in EQ and DAOC i would be in the same pickup group for 3-6 hours

  • Stone_FountainStone_Fountain Berkley, MIPosts: 226Member Uncommon

    When the games that come out can be leveled in a week, a single run through affords all crafting options, a full set of raid gear and all the mounts and pets there are...there is going to be issues. 

     

    There does need to be a will to socialize a.k.a. group, period. Risk vs. reward of a high degree.

     

    You want to solo, fine but you will not be geared for the endgame. 

     

    A crafting system that is necessary, deep and fun. Not just something to give people something to do. 

    A system where gear changes and rares are really rare. 

     

    From level 1 the mobs are not push overs and exploring is dangerous. Food, water, equipment repair and bag space are very important. 

    First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999

  • loulakiloulaki PatrasPosts: 918Member Uncommon

    Well you can see GW2 with the all its community mechanics. They have done a pretty hard job, but the community it was hard to be build. Why ?

    Well for sure the combat and the solo able content, drove a lot of people to loneliness. Also the fact that there is no fear (karma, economy survival, etc), nerfed the need to create a community or social hubs . The fun is that the rest of MMOs suffer from the same issues and they dont even try to create friendly mechanics like the resurrection or the sharable gathering nodes ...

     

    i have high hopes for BlackDesert online cause is the last one (along with ArcheAge) which focus on this aspect of the need of a social interaction ...

     

    cheers

     

    edit: to add the stupid megaserver which destroys the community cause you dont see the same people, its like living in New York and every day changing the people you meet on the street. They are already strangers, with such mechanics people become even more strangers ...

    image

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 7,870Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
     I don't think that's really true.  Most games promote anti-social behavior on purpose or not.  You can promote and allow more interactions.  You can setup situations for interaction instead of  tons instances and automated grouping tools.  You can create systems where players rely on each other even beyond combat.  You can create worlds where players can form physical communities.  

    Why would you waste resources on social or economy systems when there is very little demand for those?

    No point making games no one is interested in...

  • YalexyYalexy BerlinPosts: 1,053Member Uncommon

    I think that MMORPGs are ment for socializing and groupcontent. Otherwise there wouldn't be anything massive multiiplayer online about it.

    WoW - when it was released - forced the players to team up in guilds or dedicated groups, as it was impossible to beat the endgame-dungeons with random groups. And the loot being dropped was scarce and you needed to do them dungeons over and over again for everyone to get their items out of it.
    This led to well organized groups of players, that stayed with each other for long periods of time and the socializing was a cruicial aspect to make those large groups work as a team.

    Allthough I played WoW on and off, I was playing EvE Online for 7 years, as the socializing and the organization of groups was even better there.
    Sure, you can play EvE Online as a singleplayer, farming missions in highsec, but wahts the point there? Why not play a singleplayer game instead?

    EvE Online to this day is the pinaccle for me of what a MMO is all about - the socializing and organisation of large groups of people.

    I've played a ton of MMOs, and allthough they were fun for the few month it took me to get a fully equipped character at endgame, there was no reason to stay any longer, even if the people I played with were a nice bunch of people.

    That last point leads me back to EvE Online again, as EvE Online doesn't have an endgame and maxlevels etc, which is just as cruicial for me in a good MMO as the socializing.

    So for me, there's not only the socializing that makes for a good MMO, but also the open ended story, where you write the stories yourself, like we did when we were playing Pen&Paper RPGs.

  • Loki64Loki64 Lexington, KYPosts: 8Member
    Originally posted by BailoPan15

    I disagree with the OP entirely. Most MMO players nowadays are asocial or they play with very tight circle with friends and they don't give a bat's eye about their surroundings. I'm one of those people. I play with my girlfriend and 1-2 friends I made along the way and I resent games that force group content on me and above all I resent games that force me to build a group of 3+ (5 is acceptable) players. I do not like strangers. Especially strangers that can screw up the whatever run I'm doing. Guild Wars 2 has it best, I'm not forced to group with anyone, yet neither I or other players are being punished if I "kill steal" a mob, infact they might even thank me. And this my friend is why I play Gw2 after almost 2 years. I'm not looking for a second life, I'm looking for fun, and I find fun with close group of friends, beating challenges.

    P.S: Yes I always join RP guilds, since the community there puts the FUN before the competition. Naturally as a skilled player I have a WvW-only guild but I'm mainly representing the RP one. 

    You hit that nail on the head!  If the MMO Devs would focus on making a game that ALL gameplay styles could enjoy rather than forcing folks to do it "their way or the highway" then we'd have the ultimate game.  Instead we get devs promoting "play it your way, your choice" then after they've gotten a few million copies sold.... BAM!  You idiots are too stupid to play our game!  We only want HARD CORE people... Raids, Hero Dungeons, Progression, more RAIDS!  My wife & I play as a duo and sometimes include some friends that we've met along the way, or RL friends we've recruited to help us get around the "Group Gates" that the devs put up around certain aspects of the games ie. the need for LFG to do Scenarios in WoW, or not being able to do dungeons in GW2 without a full party.... this is all content that should be readily available without forcing someone to group with a random group of strangers to complete game content.  If I want to solo / duo content that should be my right to die over and over while I figure out how each mob does their thing, but the devs are bent on forcing me to drag folks along with me that I don't know because they say "This is an MMO dude!".  Most of my small group play is by choice as I'm a 50 yr old man whose fingers don't move like they once did, and I'm tired of being told "I SUCK", or "OMG you just need to log off and uninstall this game" so I can say that my stranger groups haven't been exactly rewarding moments.  I could go on as I've just scratched my "nerve" but I'm sure I'll get flamed from various directions for what I've said already!  Ok stepping off my SoapBox, and Flame On!

     

     

  • HulluckHulluck lost in bfe, TNPosts: 605Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loki64
    Originally posted by BailoPan15

    I disagree with the OP entirely. Most MMO players nowadays are asocial or they play with very tight circle with friends and they don't give a bat's eye about their surroundings. I'm one of those people. I play with my girlfriend and 1-2 friends I made along the way and I resent games that force group content on me and above all I resent games that force me to build a group of 3+ (5 is acceptable) players. I do not like strangers. Especially strangers that can screw up the whatever run I'm doing. Guild Wars 2 has it best, I'm not forced to group with anyone, yet neither I or other players are being punished if I "kill steal" a mob, infact they might even thank me. And this my friend is why I play Gw2 after almost 2 years. I'm not looking for a second life, I'm looking for fun, and I find fun with close group of friends, beating challenges.

    P.S: Yes I always join RP guilds, since the community there puts the FUN before the competition. Naturally as a skilled player I have a WvW-only guild but I'm mainly representing the RP one. 

    You hit that nail on the head!  If the MMO Devs would focus on making a game that ALL gameplay styles could enjoy rather than forcing folks to do it "their way or the highway" then we'd have the ultimate game.  Instead we get devs promoting "play it your way, your choice" then after they've gotten a few million copies sold.... BAM!  You idiots are too stupid to play our game!  We only want HARD CORE people... Raids, Hero Dungeons, Progression, more RAIDS!  My wife & I play as a duo and sometimes include some friends that we've met along the way, or RL friends we've recruited to help us get around the "Group Gates" that the devs put up around certain aspects of the games ie. the need for LFG to do Scenarios in WoW, or not being able to do dungeons in GW2 without a full party.... this is all content that should be readily available without forcing someone to group with a random group of strangers to complete game content.  If I want to solo / duo content that should be might right to die over and over while I figure out how each mod does their thing, but the devs are bent on forcing me to drag folks along with me that I don't know because they say "This is an MMO dude!".  Most of my small group play is by choice as I'm a 50 yr old man whose fingers don't move like they once did, and I'm tired of being told "I SUCK", or "OMG you just need to log off and uninstall this game" so I can say that my stranger groups haven't been exactly rewarding moments.  I could go on as I've just scratched my "nerve" but I'm sure I'll get flamed from various directions for what I've said already!  Ok stepping off my SoapBox, and Flame On!

     

     

    What have they been doing for awhile now if not adding content and stripping the stuff you hate out.  A decent few mmo's you don't even have to leave the main city. Ever!  Very minimal interaction with others is needed. I'm sorry but if you form the core group a few random people in a dungeon finder don't, won't mess anything up. You don't want a social experience but you do. WHAT?  Ok.. You want an open dungeon that you can go in with just your core group?

    I'm baffled. Solo, core group: Wait times on queues are low because of cross server grouping.   A couple randoms join who might as well be npc's because they won't or don't say shit. They couldn't act more artificial if they tried. The game world starts to cave in on itself if they say "Hi" at the start of the dungeon.  I'm serious here.

    Open world dungeon experiences. They are out there. Ok, dam guess random xyz just annoyed you cause he crossed your path.

    Have you looked at Rift? It's about solo friendly as they come. Come and go as you please. From what I read WoW is pretty much there also. If they stripped out much more out of some of these games they would be more akin to a co-op game like Boarderlands.

    There's games where you can build your character to be a god and solo everything just about. Literally! Of course they don't just hand that kind of thing to you from the word go. Give and take. Find one that has for the most part the aspects that you like and enjoy it. The good and the bad.  None of them are perfect. Everything ya'll are looking for is out there. Or was at one time.

     

    Edit: I guess saying that one doesn't want to be all that social then they do threw me off.  I get time related aspects.  Anarchy Online. I bitched about issues with that game daily. I enjoyed it though. I played that game for years. I made no mistakes how Funcom did business. What patch days were like. That bugs would be features for years. The final straw was a community that dwindled down to nothing. Borealis become the only city with people in it.  Waiting days for a Inferno group because I wasn't in one of the 3 small cliques at the time actively doing inferno missions. Of course I could solo hecklers or missions. But it was inefficient and I played mmo's for the social aspect. Good and bad.. When that left I was done.

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