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Originally posted by BizkitNL What a silly mechanic. Coming from EvE Online, I'd dare say "Carebears" are at work here.....
Coming from from EvE Online and throwing around "Carebears" I'd say you're a [insert something that will get me banned].
Originally posted by syriinx
ArcheAge is also a crafting game, or more accurately a gathering game. But it is designed so higher end activities have a PvP exposure. Its like trying to say EvE isnt a PvP game.
People need to understand this, and accept this, because its part of what makes ArcheAge ArcheAge.
There does need to be PvE sandbox options, but ArcheAge wouldnt work as one IMO for reasons i wont get into here because I want to keep it positive. ArcheAge seems to be a very good game for its target (niche) audience, and if they tinker with the game's design at this stage to please everybody they will please nobody. Just ask SoE and LucasArts.
That still doesn't mean it's a "pvp game".
Is crafting just as important end game?
To me a pvp game is one that fosters pvp "all the time" and it is center stage.
There is a lot of talk about "sandboxes" and I would say that Archeage is more of a sandbox and that pvp is one of many important tools in that sandbox.
But saying a game is an "x game" means that the game revolves around that activity.
I see the crafting and pvp part of this game as a bit yin and yang, ever circling each other, different but important to each other. Not "one or the other".
Originally posted by FlyByKnight I by no means am a full loot OWPVP type at all. On my first trade run I knew the risks and I lost my pack. I worked hard to gather the items and make the pack and travel all slow and I lost it to my own faction. I chalked it up as a loss though. Unprotected waters. Instead of lowering the penalty for losing your trade pack, they need to increase the penalty of same faction murder. That's where the problem lies. You can kill somebody destroy their work and only get like 10-18 minutes in jail. Then they go back out and do it again. That time frame needs to increased and the crime points needed to be banished needs to be cut in half. People who PK their own faction really need to feel the repercussions of doing it, so there is risk for them as well. People are trying to ride the line between piracy and regular play. The blood lust system needs work too. Most of these same faction pk'ers turn on bloodlust allowing them to get the jump on others who are unsuspecting. If you have bloodlust on you should be marked as red, and there needs to be a cool down so it can't be switched on and off. TL;DR 60/40 split is a bad idea, 80/20 was already way generous. Increase the time of faction on faction crimes and the speed at which piracy is reached.
Yep I agree, especially on the bloodlust thing. Bloodlust needs a cooldown and "wind-up" time. What I mean by this is that when you turn on bloodlust, you should be unable to attack other players (unless you are attacked) for like 2 minutes or something, but your color would still change. This would stop people from just insto-bloodlusting and killing unsuspecting people.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
While I am strictly against entitled nature and demands for changes of game designs, I have to admit that besides people calling for perma death and loss of limbs for pirates, most posters here talk quite reasonably.
Asking for fair changes in risk vs reward balance does not seem to have anything to do with carebears and may actually be an improvement for the game.
Are there any disadvantages of being a pirate in the game? (e.g. guards attacking you on sight, NPCs refusing to trade with you, inability to formally own land, higher chance of dropping your equip upon death, etc.). If so, then the better risk vs reward may be a compensation for these? Cant really make an educated judgement yet.
My god has horns.... nah, I don't think he is real either.
Originally posted by sludgebeard So I just recently started following ArcheAge, but one of the things brought up alot on forums and other places was this idea that the 1.0 Patch in Korea basically boned the games Trading Caravans over. Now why is this? So basically the way it worked before is you would have a trade caravan and you would transport gold to gilda coins, and the way it originally worked is if you were the victim of theft, and your caravan got raided your gold was taken and you were basically boned, you got nothing for the work you put into trying to transport it. So then the 1.0 Patch made it so that if your stuff got stolen when the pirate traded the gold in, the Pirate would get 60% of the gold exchange and the victim of the theft would get 40% on the exchange. So basically what happened from there on out, is people would purposfully leave their caravans along the coast to be raided, so the Pirates would take their Caravan and trade it in for them, cause HEY! Why not? I mean your getting 40% still and you dont have to do any of the work. (Again Im just now getting this information so please correct anything Im missing out on.) This is just rediculous to me, and apparently what Trion has worked out with XLGAMES is that now, in the Western Version, Pirates will get 80% and the victim will get 20%. Which still doesnt make any fucking sense! I mean your the victim of theft, you should get jack all from the ordeal, thats why they have a court system and other things in place to make pirating hard, and apparently pirating really is difficult, so they shouldnt have to share their theft with the person they stole from am I right? Anyways, when Beta comes around, everyone please fight for Trion to change it and negotiate it back to 0 - 100% for the pirates, because in no way does it make sense for a victim of theft to get 20% of what was stolen from them, the theif isnt going to write them a nice letter going "O hey i stole your caravan but heres some compensation", its just bad design.
Reading this - if you're weak enough and stupid enough to get ganked by a raid party - screw you... why not perma death loser
Originally posted by d_20 I agree, as well. However, I wouldn't mind there being some sort of insurance, but the pirate should get 100% of whatever they take. It would be even better with player-run insurance companies that provided armed guards for certain shipments.
OK - risk-reward - if a pirate gets my stuff, they get it all but if they get caught, it's perma-death. Quid pro quo.
Originally posted by kridak Originally posted by Mothanos Originally posted by kridak Originally posted by Creslin321 As many people here have said, the issue here isn't about PvP vs. PvE or "carebears." This is about the risk/reward ratio of traders and pirates being WAY too different. The trader risks a LOT. The cost of their trade pack, the time they spend running the trade, and their boat. The pirate risks basically nothing...a few minutes in jail time, which is nearly always less than the amount of time it would take to run an actual trade. AND that is only if they get caught. In addition, you can wind up getting a lot more gilda starts through piracy because you don't need to actually run the packs...people just bring them to you. This is stupid, it makes piracy, a very low risk, high reward activity; and trading a very high risk, medium reward activity. The problem is the penalty for piracy...I love the court system, but the penalties are a joke. Big deal, 12 minutes in jail...Oooohhh. And even if someone commits enough crimes to get a lot of time in jail...all that means is that they go AFK for a night and they are back to piracy the next day. And they can even escape if they want to. The penalties need to be redone so that people actually want to avoid them. Here's an idea...how about penalties are in gold and/or gilda stars. Instead of 12 minutes in jail, it's 12 gold or 3 gilda stars...something like that. These fines could be redistributed to victims of the crimes. You probably wouldn't get back what you lost...but it would be nice to know that if you get ganked and robbed you may one day get some kind of compensation for it. Even better, make it so that if the pirate can't afford the fines levied on them, then the court would randomly repossess one of their good items (quality depending on the amount they owe), and they wouldn't get it back until they pay off their debt. I bet that people would think twice about piracy if you stand to lose 15 gilda stars if you are caught.
Never going to happen. Trion has already said they want the NA/EU client to be more sandbox then the Korean client who added more Themepark. They have said many times over how they want this game and are not going to change the penalty's / game mechanics.
The people are happy with how it works now.... there are only a handfull of people who complain about it.... Sorry man this is not the mmo you are looking for and neither should you want to change it into something it will never be. Accept the rules or take your ball and go home.
You should always hope developers will get their heads out of their asses and make a better game.
I will be playing either way, because it is fun, but if you are happy with the game you should rethink risk vs reward as it should work 2 ways. good lord this is common frickin sense. My guess is your a pirate and love that there is no consequence...like i said earlier, i do not blame you as you have 0 risk and all the rewards. (which i do not blame you..the system is flawed and you are actually doing nothing wrong, but that does not mean the system is good, it is not)
It will only hurt the game in the long run if they do not balance the system...hell they will end up with so many pirates there may be few traders. Or the traders will say screw it and stick to non pvp areas...and there goes the pirate fun....if they leave it this way it just shows they have no clue what balance means...but they would not be the first company to duck their heads in the sand.
Encourage logical change, or grow stagnant. (and take your ball with you)
There is a reality - the pvp community ALWAYS cries about the carebears - ALWAYS and since they are vocal, the dev team pays them mind... and so the carebears start to leave [think casuals with lives] and the devs, responding to the decaying market, nerf the game, so the pvpers leave. Is there a balance point? LoTRO had the Moors... which was good, TSW has areas of contention which work. This game, coming from the same development tree, reminds me of Lineage and Aion...seems like the hidden message is - travel in a gang after 30 cause you're going to get ganked otherwise [hahaha]. And the quest theft issue, I agree, it's a cost to make the stuff, it's a bore moving it [Sarah Oakheart passed me three times when I was carrying iron] and the reward is a house that you pay 3 gold a week for [do I hear gold farmers heading this way - you better believe it].
So, end of the day. How would *I* characterize it? Disappointing.
It is a time sink and I don't have 6 hours a day to devote to it.
It is a grinder... oh you can stop the "kill ten rats" quests after a certain point and get partial credit or you can go 60% past and get "exceeds" credit or you can go way past and complete the secret quests but it's still grind
Toxic community - of course, that is a hallmark of pvp games. If you ask questions, you are either a carebear or noob, regardless, you are now a target. And this is in the alpha - the version that cost many players $150 to enter... what fun it will be as F2P.
Bottom line - I like games that I can play with my wife - this game is not it. Infantile chat bordering on and occasionally crossing into vile.
So in the words of the OP - I am taking my ball [yes, they got my $300 - sorry but that's not a lot compared to what I would have spent] and moving down the road. lol - back to Fusang....
This is not the mmo I am looking for....
People weren't upset over the patches or the game, that is just a front. People are/were upset over cheaters that could autokill and autoloot. Dig a little deeper the truth is out there "mostly deleted" and hopefully Trion is going to be on top of that before official launch over here, which signs point to not as alot of data for ArcheAge is saved user side.
Much bigger things to worry about than what you are talking about and people spending money on the game looking for a headtstart and a future investment might be in for a shock once this launches and realize the real reason people quit this game in Korea.
please don't dumb down or casualize the game until it becomes a themepark
no safe modes and double nets
that is all
Originally posted by Whyspre Originally posted by d_20 I agree, as well. However, I wouldn't mind there being some sort of insurance, but the pirate should get 100% of whatever they take. It would be even better with player-run insurance companies that provided armed guards for certain shipments.
It should be something like this:
If they get caught (killed) their gear and ship get 'impounded' with heavy fine needed to get it back.
Originally posted by Sovrath I see the crafting and pvp part of this game as a bit yin and yang, ever circling each other, different but important to each other. Not "one or the other".
Maybe a little bit off topic, and i really don't want to go into the discussion about the OP.
But crafting and pvp is in a lot of games yin and yang and the one profits from the other.
- PvPers are not willingly to raid for gear.. or with other words they are dependend to be able to buy gear.
- PvPers(some) are usually content with item destruction, item decay or item loot.. all of that increases the demand of items
- PvPers are the best customers of crafters
- PvP gameplay(item destruction, item loot, item decay) increases the demand for crafters and improves the gameplay from crafter.
In contrary to PvE players or specifically (Raiders)
- those are mostly not content with any form of item destruction, item decay or anything that their gear will be destroyed at one point or the other
- they don't like to buy stuff from crafters.. they expect to get all their gear from raids, and expect that raid gear is better than any crafted gear
With other words Crafters and PvPer do often synergize.. Raiders and Crafters, or Raiders and PvPers don't.
And it is not surprising that pvpers often do like to craft as pve activity, more often than killing some mobs or raids.
Originally posted by stayBlind Originally posted by Madimorga Originally posted by MMOredfalcon Hafta agree with most posters here and not the OP. PvE players loose everything and Pirates have nothing to loose. If they get caught, well anyone playing now will know the justice system is a joke. I'm all for 100% loss to the Traders. But in return I would expect a HUGE punishment for pirates/griefers. Rather than minutes in jail...should be days or months. Homes/properties reclaimed. Loss of bank use or any kind of city vendor. You want realism....well what happens to a criminal on the run? Their names are known, and everybody is gunning for them. Now put that kinda realism on the griefers...see how long they last.
If the game weren't free to play, meaning people can have multiple griefer accounts with no properties, it would be the best deterrent ever to let a jury of players award confiscated property to the aggrieved victims of captured thieves.
I wish some of the people posting in this thread were designing our games instead of the people who are designing them.
It is a lot easier to armchair develop than to do it for real.
It is easier to armchair develop. But that is not even the issue here. They can develop the game to give more rewards to the ganker/griefer. Why can't they make it more challenging for that group? They talk all 'Risk/Reward' stuff...as long as it is someone else taking the risk while they reap the rewards.
Originally posted by Horusra And this game can be the next Darkfall with a very small population.
And when it dies for lack of population, the gankers will claim something else killed it, like the grind or the graphics or the monetization. They'll never admit they killed it. Meanwhile, the ffa PvPers who actually play for reasons other than griefing will keep listening to the gankers and griping about how sad it is that everyone likes themeparks, never realizing that many of us prefer sandboxes or hybrids, but not if we have to put up with the gankers.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Originally posted by Madimorga Originally posted by Horusra And this game can be the next Darkfall with a very small population.
The hardcore population claims since OBT(Korea, more than a 1 year ago) that it will die. And not because of the pvp, because there is not really a lot.. AA is rather safe so to speak. But because of the economy. No item decay/item destruction is just a no-go for any sandbox game.. another one would be that it may be more and more a themepark instead of a sandbox/park.
We will see what happens.. but to compare ArcheAge to Darkfall (pvp wise) is a joke..
- ArcheAge does have a lot of safe zones. Hell even Tradepack trading is possible with some safe zones spots. And can be avoided completely with daily grind quests.
- More or less no looting, expect Tradepacks... and that is just a minigame.
- No real penalty for dying.. or a very soft one.. so it doesn't matter when you die
So please don't pretend ArcheAge would be a hardcore pvp game.. because it is not.
Darkfall > EvE > Lineage 2 >>> ArcheAge, somewhere between DAoC and WoW.
And yes.. ArcheAge is not FFA pvp.. not like Darkfall, EvE or Lineage 2.
I don't understand why people are comparing ArcheAge with full PvP games that have twitch based action combat and full loot.
ArcheAge is a nice blend of just the right risk vs reward systems for a good many people. People coming from several games such as WoW or Rift understand the honor points system as a motivation for PvP which is in AA.
Then there is the trade packs system which is another large motivation for everyone.
In my mind it's the perfect system and going full loot or more harsh penalties than the current jail systems and pirate/faction systems would be to much.
Originally posted by Apraxis Originally posted by Madimorga Originally posted by Horusra And this game can be the next Darkfall with a very small population.
If you are correct, you just prove the point that when devs try to bring in all types of gamers with one server ruleset, they're making a huge mistake and will fail.
And most of my WOW characters are on a PvP server. So I know how annoying and time consuming the gankers can make things even when you lose nothing at all besides time.
And just for the sake of sharing information.. because obviously not all people got how the pvp system looks, especially for players looking to avoid pvp.
Ok.. here a quick overview:
The world is separated in 3 continents + the open sea.
North Continent + Open Sea are always on PvP Zones. You can PK(kill your own faction) or PvP(kill one of the other factions)
The two south continents, are the two NPC Factions every player joins in the beginning.
Half of those south continents are complete safe zones. No PvP/PK whatsoever. And there are farming/housing spots,too. With other words a PvE only player never have tp leave them, never will risk to get attacked.
Now to the other half of both south continents. Those are PvP Zones, but with different States of PvP.
PvP Scale 1-5. PK possible PvP with other faction possible. PvP activity increases PvP scale from 1/5 to max. 5/5. If 5/5 is reaches it starts War Time Full Out War with bonus honor points for a certain time. As much as i know 30 min.. preparation. 1 hour War time. After that there is 2 hours peace time.
And now listen exactly all PvE Only players. In this 2 hours peace time there is no PvP/PK whatsoever in the PvP zones at the two south continents. And you can do unharmed whatever you want there.. Quests, Exploring, Whatever. After the 2 hours peace, it starts again with PvP Scale 1/5, and there may be some PK/PvP.
With other words.. you can do whatever you want(PvE activities) completely safe in ArcheAge as a PvE player... Just stay in the safe zones and just enter pvp zones at peace time. And some part of the coast(sea) is even part of the pve zones.. so you can even sail a bit.. just never enter the open sea. Although... you don't get instakilled, and you don't lose anything. You may have to repair your ship.. but that's about it.
If you want do trade runs(mini game, and you really don't have to do.. it is a pvp minigame.. not a pve activity), there are even some in safe areas with less profit.. so that even pve only player can try it out without risk.. on the other side it is not a lot of fun without any danger and pvp.
And the currency you can earn through Trade runs can also be earned from daily quests within a safe zone. With other words.. there is no need for trade runs for pve only players.
With other words.. ArcheAge already tries to please both.. pvp and pve only players. And there is really no reason for pve only players to cry me a river.
Originally posted by Madimorga If you are correct, you just prove the point that when devs try to bring in all types of gamers with one server ruleset, they're making a huge mistake and will fail. And most of my WOW characters are on a PvP server. So I know how annoying and time consuming the gankers can make things even when you lose nothing at all besides time.
And therefore i said it is between DAoC and WoW. It is not that hard as WoW PvP, where you could be attacked everywhere, but don't lose anything. and DAoC, where you can only be attacked at certain areas, and lose nothing.
Just read my post above. ArcheAge will not die because of the absent of PvE players, or because they force PvP upon them(because they don't), but because of the economy or because it may become a themepark.. as long as they don't do anything against it.
And another sidenote. There is no need for actual trading. There is a global AH for that.
Those trade runs are only a gimicky mini game. You have to craft, or buy from crafters specially made trading packs, those trading packs don't have any other purpose. Those player made trading packs can now be delivered to NPC merchants, and you get a tiny reward. Those trading packs are rather cheap, and crafter (pve only player) can make money for selling it. And for pvp players it is a nice little mini game to either deliver them, or to steal them from others. No other effect or purpose in it.. just a mini game.
The issue here, as in all other MMORPG PVP games, is lack of appropriate criminal punishment. ( lack of understanding the basis of playing an RPG game really)
As long as they insiste on rewarding sociopathic behavior & punishing the upstanding Citizen in these games, they will never ever work out.
The past repeated attempts proves it eloquently. No need to argue about it... seriously, get a clue.
Freedom is good, anarchy isn't. Pretty simple concepts, no?
Let me throw in my 2 copper here on this AA pirating scenario. They should be hunted down by a draconian npc police force in all civilized area of the game. There should be jail time, a steep money penalty to be paid & loss/restriction of freedom afterward for quite some time(again in civilized area).
The most important part here is the jail time. It needs to be on a timer that doesn't budge unless the player is in game playing a mind numming unbottable jail minigame. Like forced labor if you will.
After playing that boring mini game for 12-18-24h, they'll think twice about being unwelcomed psychos.
You say these people wont play the game then... ALL RIGHT! Mission accomplish. Only the none sickos will remain. You know the ones who truely want a challenge & understand the risk vs reward of living as a criminal.
Thats my 2 copper.
Originally posted by Apraxis Originally posted by Madimorga If you are correct, you just prove the point that when devs try to bring in all types of gamers with one server ruleset, they're making a huge mistake and will fail. And most of my WOW characters are on a PvP server. So I know how annoying and time consuming the gankers can make things even when you lose nothing at all besides time.
Well at least it's free to play. Patient players who don't buy into the $150 now and don't buy into what open beta costs can wait to see if there will be room for large farms and houses in completely safe areas and whether playing in the safe areas is fun, as well as profitable enough to keep rent paid on the farms and houses.
From what I'm reading by alpha players, there is no room in safe areas for farms and houses at the moment. A great reason for every player who doesn't want to deal with gankers to hold on to their wallets and wait awhile.
Originally posted by Madimorga Originally posted by Apraxis Originally posted by Madimorga If you are correct, you just prove the point that when devs try to bring in all types of gamers with one server ruleset, they're making a huge mistake and will fail. And most of my WOW characters are on a PvP server. So I know how annoying and time consuming the gankers can make things even when you lose nothing at all besides time.
Sometimes people don't pay their house/farm taxes, if they go unpaid for 2 weeks than the house is demolished creating new space. My guild members scout around checking homes to see if any are due for demolishing.
Just a tip.
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