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[Column] General: Can We Make Quests Matter Again?

24

Comments

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,900Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Maelwydd

     

     

     

     

     

    I agree. I see quests as a way to pay the way for the style of life you want to live not as the main means for gaining experience.

    For me, experience should actually mean experience.

    Why do you still get XP for killing rats when you have already killed 100 of them? Why not reward someone who has killed 100 rats with something linked to rats, like a bonus to damage or immunity from attack or something else.

    Why not reward someone using a dagger and killing 100 things with a new skill related to daggers.

    Why not reward someone who wears heavy armour for 100 hours with a reduction in weight or combat penalty.

    Why not reward someone who has explored a region the ability to move faster within that region (no more pointless achievements but actually have them do something useful and linked to what you have done).

     

    My main problem with game design is the formulated way they all are today and how artificial (of course it is a virtual game but you know what I mean) they are.

    I like those ideas, essentially a cohesion between actions and advancement. I"d say killing enough rats could give you a bonus to disease immunity. Killing crocs and other reptiles gives a bonus to arm/weapon swing, from swinging at tough hides/scales.

    KIlling big cats grants a bonus to speed and agility so on and so forth.

    I'd also say if anyone used a system like this they shouldn't add an achievement sheet with numbers to follow, instead handle it similar to Jedi in SWG PRE-cu. Essentially you don't know what you need to do how far along you are etc.. OR what you're going to get. Until you achieve it. THis way it's not so systematic and doesn't encourage long grinding sessions.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • KanesterKanester WalesPosts: 374Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tgiordano92
    Eh, I prefer voiced story focused quests such as ESO. I culd never play a game with WoW type quests again.

    Well I thought the same, But after playing the voiced over games like TESO and SWTOR who spent most of the millions of dollars on voice actors, They can shove the voice overs up their ass's. Same with your action combat, Shove that up your ass too.

    After playing the 'Modern' MMO's, Please, give us back old school. I await Archeage.

    image

  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDPosts: 2,578Member Uncommon

    ESO made quests that matter...people complained.  The problem is not quests that matter, but the really issue....QUEST THAT MATTER TO OTHER PEOPLE.  That is what this is about.  We want what we do to effect others.  We want to feel important.  MMO's are not providing that and people are not happy.  Use to our armor being special made us important and now that is gone.  So now we want quests to make us important?

     

  • HarikenHariken Brighton, MAPosts: 980Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kanester
    Originally posted by Tgiordano92
    Eh, I prefer voiced story focused quests such as ESO. I culd never play a game with WoW type quests again.

    Well I thought the same, But after playing the voiced over games like TESO and SWTOR who spent most of the millions of dollars on voice actors, They can shove the voice overs up their ass's. Same with your action combat, Shove that up your ass too.

    After playing the 'Modern' MMO's, Please, give us back old school. I await Archeage.

    Yeah this guys post made me facepalm. Spending millions to actors  for voice over work instead of making good content is whats wrong with every mmo since wow. And his generation of mmo players are afraid of reading text.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,900Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Horusra

    ESO made quests that matter...people complained.  The problem is not quests that matter, but the really issue....QUEST THAT MATTER TO OTHER PEOPLE.  That is what this is about.  We want what we do to effect others.  We want to feel important.  MMO's are not providing that and people are not happy.  Use to our armor being special made us important and now that is gone.  So now we want quests to make us important?

     

    I think the armor thing was more about player achievement over player importance, it was something to work toward, which is a key motivator in this genre. Much like having that yellow (legendary) junta mind poison dagger in SWG Pre-cu. It's a truly rare thing to accomplish ( at least the dagger I described).

    I agree ESO's quests at least what I saw of them in beta, had a better approach than most in this genre, THe problem really did come down to it being too personal of an achievement for many MMO gamers. I think the key way forward is as I said above, more world cohesion. It's hard to do that though and it will be tricky to find ways to implement that, that doesn't in turn degrade others ability to achieve similar "fame".

     

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • redbugredbug tallahassee, FLPosts: 169Member
    Originally posted by samsweet
    I would prefer a grinding group in eq1 over any questing. It was a slower pace and actually gave you a chance to get to know people in your group. Opposed to the "lets get this bs over with" feeling when you're sent to collect a bag of orc anuses.

    Hahahahaha, to funny.

  • NephaeriusNephaerius Baltimore, MDPosts: 1,539Member Uncommon
    No mark I'm sorry but clearly you don't have the capacity to make quests matter again. For evidence of this see firefall.

    Steam: Neph

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,900Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hariken
    Originally posted by Kanester
    Originally posted by Tgiordano92
    Eh, I prefer voiced story focused quests such as ESO. I culd never play a game with WoW type quests again.

    Well I thought the same, But after playing the voiced over games like TESO and SWTOR who spent most of the millions of dollars on voice actors, They can shove the voice overs up their ass's. Same with your action combat, Shove that up your ass too.

    After playing the 'Modern' MMO's, Please, give us back old school. I await Archeage.

    Yeah this guys post made me facepalm. Spending millions to actors  for voice over work instead of making good content is whats wrong with every mmo since wow. And his generation of mmo players are afraid of reading text.

    The problem with reading in a game is too much of it makes a persons eyes heavy. This is pretty much scientific, and well known, it's a normal side effect of reading for an extended time.

    It's also a lot harder to display emotion and a story of interesting value in text than it is with VO animation and cutscenes.

    It has nothing to do with a fear of reading and everything to do with subpar writing and/or boring sleep inducing presentation.

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • HorusraHorusra maryland, MDPosts: 2,578Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Horusra

    ESO made quests that matter...people complained.  The problem is not quests that matter, but the really issue....QUEST THAT MATTER TO OTHER PEOPLE.  That is what this is about.  We want what we do to effect others.  We want to feel important.  MMO's are not providing that and people are not happy.  Use to our armor being special made us important and now that is gone.  So now we want quests to make us important?

     

    I think the armor thing was more about player achievement over player importance, it was something to work toward, which is a key motivator in this genre. Much like having that yellow (legendary) junta mind poison dagger in SWG Pre-cu. It's a truly rare thing to accomplish ( at least the dagger I described).

    I agree ESO's quests at least what I saw of them in beta, had a better approach than most in this genre, THe problem really did come down to it being too personal of an achievement for many MMO gamers. I think the key way forward is as I said above, more world cohesion. It's hard to do that though and it will be tricky to find ways to implement that, that doesn't in turn degrade others ability to achieve similar "fame".

     

     

    Cause what you are talking about is Single player games.  How much man hours would a developer have to put in, to make every players "important".  Face it the majority of us are not important in real life, why would be important in a game.  Saddly that is what most of us are looking for.  That pat on the back, the hug, the cupping of the balls to let us know we are important to someone.  The blank true is that we are not, but the striving to be is what makes us human...and causes some of us to be more than we can be (to steal a phrase).

  • UtinniUtinni Richmond, VAPosts: 380Member Uncommon
    Less quests = quests more important. This has been shown in many games. Picking something up off the ground or killing 10 rats isn't a quest, it's filler.
  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,900Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Horusra
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Originally posted by Horusra

    ESO made quests that matter...people complained.  The problem is not quests that matter, but the really issue....QUEST THAT MATTER TO OTHER PEOPLE.  That is what this is about.  We want what we do to effect others.  We want to feel important.  MMO's are not providing that and people are not happy.  Use to our armor being special made us important and now that is gone.  So now we want quests to make us important?

     

    I think the armor thing was more about player achievement over player importance, it was something to work toward, which is a key motivator in this genre. Much like having that yellow (legendary) junta mind poison dagger in SWG Pre-cu. It's a truly rare thing to accomplish ( at least the dagger I described).

    I agree ESO's quests at least what I saw of them in beta, had a better approach than most in this genre, THe problem really did come down to it being too personal of an achievement for many MMO gamers. I think the key way forward is as I said above, more world cohesion. It's hard to do that though and it will be tricky to find ways to implement that, that doesn't in turn degrade others ability to achieve similar "fame".

     

     

    Cause what you are talking about is Single player games.  How much man hours would a developer have to put in, to make every players "important".  Face it the majority of us are not important in real life, why would be important in a game.  Saddly that is what most of us are looking for.  That pat on the back, the hug, the cupping of the balls to let us know we are important to someone.  The blank true is that we are not, but the striving to be is what makes us human...and causes some of us to be more than we can be (to steal a phrase).

    This is defeatist thinking in my eyes,"can't do it so why try" is all I really took away, I mean no offense. I think the key would be separating questing from it in a sense, and use player run mechanics to achieve this, but tie them to the story in a way (think a multi branching over-arching story, that is dictated by player action in the sandbox aspects of the game.)

    This way depending on server the over-arching story could play out in different ways, so each server is in essence a different parallel of the same world.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Niagara Falls, NYPosts: 3,436Member Uncommon
    Heritage quests in EQ2 were brilliant.

    image
  • grummzgrummz Aliso Viejo, CAPosts: 56Member
    Someone mentioned missing downtime. These days we speed around MMOs...and I do miss the downtime of original EQ and valued the friendships formed during those times. I wonder what we could do to bring back downtime in a positive way for a modern MMO audience. Might be a future topic for an article!
  • kabitoshinkabitoshin Posts: 758Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Utinni
    Less quests = quests more important. This has been shown in many games. Picking something up off the ground or killing 10 rats isn't a quest, it's filler.

    I agree I want less quests rather then 100's in one zone, at first I was enjoying ESO then after my 3rd zone I was sick of quests.

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,142Member Uncommon
    Ever played Swtor or Wow? If yes then i do not understand what are you talking about.
  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Distopia

    The problem with reading in a game is too much of it makes a persons eyes heavy. This is pretty much scientific, and well known, it's a normal side effect of reading for an extended time.

    It's also a lot harder to display emotion and a story of interesting value in text than it is with VO animation and cutscenes.

    It has nothing to do with a fear of reading and everything to do with subpar writing and/or boring sleep inducing presentation.

    True, too much text (and usually uninspired stuff why farmer Bob needs you to kill 10 bugs) makes the eyes heavy.

    But too many voice acted cutscenes in a multiplayer game is no way better. 

    If say bandits wants to burn down farmer Bobs barn (maybe the bandit boss girlfriend said Bob was cute or something, I have no idea why bandits do other stuff than steal and drink) there are 3 ways to get the players into the action.

    1. Farmer Bob has a huge text you get to read when you click on him. It is whining about how poor he is because evil bandits loot him all the time and now they want to burn down his barn. Click to accept.

    2. Same thing as 1 but voice acted and with a cutscene. Since Bob ain't a najor npc his voice is done by the same guy who make most unimportant male guys.

    3. You see bandits start running to a barn with torches. You might hear Bob scream something in panic, do something.

    Yeah, the last might be more of a DE then a quest but for stuff like this that actually works best. I don't want to hear Bob or the bandits personal stories, I just want to kick some bandit butt.

    Real quests is a different matter but those should be epic (you know, throw the one ring down into the volcano it was made in), there voice acting is fine but a MMO should mainly be about doing stuff, not reading walls of text or listening to every jerk with a menial task.

  • VezlinVezlin CarolinaPosts: 23Member Uncommon

    I honestly think the bigger problem of quests is leveling. Leveling is just a gate to doing the actual fun stuff and, after a game's been out for some time, where the rest of the community currently is. Instead of a leveling system to gain power, I think MMOs should consider sidegrades.

    Action controls or hybridized action-hotbar controls allow for more skill requirements to be placed in the player's hands than the character's spreadsheet. There's no reason a new player with a sword would need to have zero chance against veterans, but veterans may be rewarded with different possibile combinations of abilities, movesets, what have you.

    This would allow quests to then unlock new abilities or gear and hold meaning in that way instead of being needed for exp. Furthermore, you could have temporary quests, or quests that lock out the chance to complete another. Not only would there be some more uniqueness to characters, particular veterans who, instead of having ground for certain sets like everyone else, have a particular item or ability, but there would also be a difference as to how characters develop and get to where they are.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member

    I 'd like to see more alternatives to just doing fedex quests. I'm really hoping SOE can make it's system work in EQN.  I don't even really care what the reward is. What I want is to get to the end of that bit of content and think " wow that was fun"

    Questing doesn't do that anymore.

  • eldariseldaris LondonPosts: 349Member


    Originally posted by Maelwydd
    Quests the way I would want them...You stumble across a farmer. You chat. He has a problem with some Orcs occasionally raiding his farm for cattle. The options are: - Gather materials and build better fences and protection for the cattle.Reward is free board and lodging for a few days while you do the work and some food when you leave. Serve as a guard to protect the next raid.Reward is room and board till the next raid and some food when you leave for your travels. Hunt the local Orcs and kill or move them on.Reward is to get some food for travel and confirmation to the local guards for a reward of gold posted by them for Orcs killed. Buy the cattle from him.The cattle to sell for whatever profit you can get. Transport the cattle to the local market.A cut of the profit the farmer makes. I.E. when I think of quests I see them as tasks that have various ways to achieve the desired outcome and upon completion receive. Quests should also be situational so that, when the problem with the Orcs is dealt with the farmer no longer has a need for help. That may mean another pressing issues rises that he needs help with of course. The reason I am so excited for EQN is that, if everything works as hoped, such a questing system is possible.

    You forget a moral choice. You could dislike the farmer for something or you could just want some easy money instead of farming another 100 wolfs to get an armor so you betray the farmer,kill him and sell his cattle. Quests should let you take sides not give you just one option -helping the farmer.Even if you can complete that in different ways is not enough,maybe the orcs are right since the farmer was using their lands so why should the player help him ?

    Also about killing 100 rats for disease immunity - how is that system not ending in grinding npcs for hours just for a small increase in stats ?
    Lotr had something like that with the deed system and it was one of the worse parts of the game - funny how Tolkien didn't write anything in his books about adventurers training to fight Sauron by decimating all wildlife in Middle Earth.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,734Member Uncommon
    I think too many games focus on teh quantity of quests rather than the quality of quests......I'd imagine the majority of us have to be about burned out on WoW type questing......I mean between WoW, EQ2, Rift, and some other MMOs I ahve probably done more than 10,000 quests and Im burned out on them........A handful of quests that matter would be fine but the constant kill ten or fetch this quests for a paltry reward gets old.
  • KonfessKonfess Dallas, TXPosts: 949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by daltanious
    Ever played Swtor or Wow? If yes then i do not understand what are you talking about.

    I understand what you mean by this statement, but few others will.   What I think you are saying is everything that people in this thread ask for is already done in these two MMOs.  Specifically quests that are long, involved, and rewarding.  What they should be asking for is quests that are long, involved, and rewarding and not in either SWTOR or WoW.

    Pardon any spelling errors
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    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
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  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vezlin

    I honestly think the bigger problem of quests is leveling. Leveling is just a gate to doing the actual fun stuff and, after a game's been out for some time, where the rest of the community currently is. Instead of a leveling system to gain power, I think MMOs should consider sidegrades.

    Action controls or hybridized action-hotbar controls allow for more skill requirements to be placed in the player's hands than the character's spreadsheet. There's no reason a new player with a sword would need to have zero chance against veterans, but veterans may be rewarded with different possibile combinations of abilities, movesets, what have you.

    This would allow quests to then unlock new abilities or gear and hold meaning in that way instead of being needed for exp. Furthermore, you could have temporary quests, or quests that lock out the chance to complete another. Not only would there be some more uniqueness to characters, particular veterans who, instead of having ground for certain sets like everyone else, have a particular item or ability, but there would also be a difference as to how characters develop and get to where they are.

    Well, you are right but only because MMOs tend to use the same (not so great) mechanics for leveling.

    Levels really is just one way to simulate experience, you could as well just buy abilities from a list whenever you have XP for it or some other way. The problem is the idiotic system that makes someone hitting something with a higher level do even less damage then he usually do and the level requirement instead of skill/ability requirement on gear.

    I rather have a system where a sword as example demands that you have a certain strength score to wield it. You could get it really early if you only focus on strength but then you would might be forced to wear less armor and so on. Skip the damage reduction from getting hit by someone of lower levels and make the hitpoint difference less between vets and noobs (instead of having 200 hp as noob and 50 000HP as vet you could have 200 as noob and 2000 as vet).

    Most pen and paper RPGs besides possibly D&D uses similar mechanics, it works. Vets are still very powerful witth better gear and can take more damage but they aren't gods who can be AFK for 20 minutes while a noob is beating on them doing close to zero damage.

    But I basically agree with you, MMO mechanics have flaws and no-one dares to experiment with something a bit different nowadays besides trying action combat.

  • ComafComaf Chicago, ILPosts: 1,154Member Common
    Originally posted by SBFord

    We would all love to see MMOs take new risks and new directions. While the standard formula is good, and games like WildStar are set to deliver top notch experiences based on the theme park model, most of us are jaded enough to want something different. 

    Read more of Mark Kern's Can We Make Quests Matter Again.

    image

    SOCIAL INTEGRATION IN AN MMORPG =  getting together to take out packs of mobs while chit chatting the night away.  This was huge in Dark Age of Camelot.  I really wish this sort of thing still existed.  Solo questing kills socialization...period.  

    image
  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,949Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Konfess
    Originally posted by daltanious
    Ever played Swtor or Wow? If yes then i do not understand what are you talking about.

    I understand what you mean by this statement, but few others will.   What I think you are saying is everything that people in this thread ask for is already done in these two MMOs.  Specifically quests that are long, involved, and rewarding.  What they should be asking for is quests that are long, involved, and rewarding and not in either SWTOR or WoW.

    Well, that is right but the problem is that those games are filled with tons of useless grindquests as well. Take away all the quests that aren't epic and we can talk.

    Quests should be epic and Wow, TOR and for that matter many other games like EQ2 have them but what most people here are talking about are all the FEDEX, pestcontrol and other none epic quests.

    If you take all them away, add more dungeons, dynamic quests, better ways to gain experience in PvP, more loose open world bosses and similar other ways to gain experience we can start talking.

    EQ2 is a great example. On one side it have great signature and heritage quests which are long, well written and fun. But it also have loads of really pointless quests like having you kill 50 bugs to find pages from a book they have eaten and put the book together... It have about 50 crap quests (or menial tasks, calling them quests just isn't right) for every good quest.

  • YamotaYamota LondonPosts: 6,620Member
    Standard formula is good? The standard formula is trash and only made to maximize profits for game companies. The standard formula should be sandbox with quests that everyone can participate in an which actually has a real outcome. Not bullshit exp/gold reward.
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