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General: Zenimax to Oculus: Misappropriation of Trade Secrets

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Comments

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,296Member Uncommon
    It looks to me like Zenimax have sealed their own fate. Whether they win the case, which is extremely doubtful, or not, they will forever be perceived now as a dodgy company, whether this in turn will hurt Bethesda, remains to be seen. But one thing for sure, for Zenimax, it really is all downhill from here, it doesn't matter how much pressure their investors are putting on them to recoup their money, some things just never get forgiven, nor forgotten. They gambled and failed and now they try this.image
  • MilanderMilander Windsor, ONPosts: 151Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by darkedone02
    I hope Zenimax loses as they been harassing people left and right recently this year and last year.

    What if they have a legitimate complaint?  Should they just lose on principle or something?

    If they had a legitimate complaint they should have made it after the kickstarter (or during) or maybe when the grape vine started buzzing with the FB purchase...Not long after the purchase happens and the dust settles.

    image
  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,296Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Milander
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by darkedone02
    I hope Zenimax loses as they been harassing people left and right recently this year and last year.

    What if they have a legitimate complaint?  Should they just lose on principle or something?

    If they had a legitimate complaint they should have made it after the kickstarter (or during) or maybe when the grape vine started buzzing with the FB purchase...Not long after the purchase happens and the dust settles.

    That was before ESO failed though, now they have investors with 'issues' to deal with. Money changes everything.image

  • RollgunnerRollgunner Champaign, ILPosts: 59Member Common
    Originally posted by Milander

    If they had a legitimate complaint they should have made it after the kickstarter (or during) or maybe when the grape vine started buzzing with the FB purchase...Not long after the purchase happens and the dust settles.

    They were asking for compensation via a formal business agreement two days after the Kickstarter campaign started, which was pretty reasonable since according to the ZeniMax contract signed by Oculus, Oculus was not allowed to publicly use the hardware and software that they developed together without each others' consent, which Oculus did in the video for the Kickstarter campaign.

  • Dreamo84Dreamo84 Niagara Falls, NYPosts: 3,437Member Uncommon
    Lol ya I'm sure ESO has anything to do with this lawsuit. Oh my goodness, some people!!

    image
  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by Milander
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by darkedone02
    I hope Zenimax loses as they been harassing people left and right recently this year and last year.

    What if they have a legitimate complaint?  Should they just lose on principle or something?

    If they had a legitimate complaint they should have made it after the kickstarter (or during) or maybe when the grape vine started buzzing with the FB purchase...Not long after the purchase happens and the dust settles.

    That was before ESO failed though, now they have investors with 'issues' to deal with. Money changes everything.image

    Sad but probably true

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  • syriinxsyriinx New York, NYPosts: 1,063Member Uncommon

    looks to me like Zenimax deserves at least some compensation

    It also looks like people cant handle the fact they didnt like a solid game and now Zenimax is somehow the devil.

    Yes, ESO is a solid game.  Deal with it.  If you don't like it, don't play it.  I don't play it.  But stop treating it as some insult to mmorpgs because you make yourselves look ridiculous doing that.

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by BMBender

     


    Originally posted by asmkm22

    Originally posted by BMBender You guys don't get out much do you? News almost a month old.... http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/411735 What couldn't figure out how to get animated cleavage on the news ticker?
    Actually, that is from when they stated their intention to sue.  It's hitting the circuit again today, and considered news, because they actually sued (filed the papers and such).  Shit just got real, so to speak.
    As an update to an existing story sure; Zem said they intended to pursue legal action in back early May. A story by the WSJ, witch most game rags carried (except MMORPG). This story is merely a "yup they did it like they said they would" not something out of the blue like MMORPG is presenting it as.

     

    You're perception of "out of the blue" must be very different than most people's.

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  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by Milander
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by darkedone02
    I hope Zenimax loses as they been harassing people left and right recently this year and last year.

    What if they have a legitimate complaint?  Should they just lose on principle or something?

    If they had a legitimate complaint they should have made it after the kickstarter (or during) or maybe when the grape vine started buzzing with the FB purchase...Not long after the purchase happens and the dust settles.

    The two companies have been working towards settling the issue for about 2 years now...

    Here's a copy of an NDA signed by Luckey, for example.  What people don't seem to realize is that Zenimax has been working on VR tech for something like 10 years now.  They brought Carmack and got him working on their VR projects and stuff, and then he left the company to go work for OR doing VR tech.

    I know that doesn't mesh well with the popular opinion here, but Zeni actually does have a case.

    You make me like charity

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Elmira, ONPosts: 2,499Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by Milander
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by darkedone02
    I hope Zenimax loses as they been harassing people left and right recently this year and last year.

    What if they have a legitimate complaint?  Should they just lose on principle or something?

    If they had a legitimate complaint they should have made it after the kickstarter (or during) or maybe when the grape vine started buzzing with the FB purchase...Not long after the purchase happens and the dust settles.

    The two companies have been working towards settling the issue for about 2 years now...

    Here's a copy of an NDA signed by Luckey, for example.  What people don't seem to realize is that Zenimax has been working on VR tech for something like 10 years now.  They brought Carmack and got him working on their VR projects and stuff, and then he left the company to go work for OR doing VR tech.

    I know that doesn't mesh well with the popular opinion here, but Zeni actually does have a case.

    I'll side with you. 

     

    At very least, the case has more substance than some that I've seen over the years (aka McDonald's Made Me Fat cases)

    Crazkanuk

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  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by Milander
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by darkedone02
    I hope Zenimax loses as they been harassing people left and right recently this year and last year.

    What if they have a legitimate complaint?  Should they just lose on principle or something?

    If they had a legitimate complaint they should have made it after the kickstarter (or during) or maybe when the grape vine started buzzing with the FB purchase...Not long after the purchase happens and the dust settles.

    The two companies have been working towards settling the issue for about 2 years now...

    Here's a copy of an NDA signed by Luckey, for example.  What people don't seem to realize is that Zenimax has been working on VR tech for something like 10 years now.  They brought Carmack and got him working on their VR projects and stuff, and then he left the company to go work for OR doing VR tech.

    I know that doesn't mesh well with the popular opinion here, but Zeni actually does have a case.

    He left the company after Zeni killed VR research and product development. There are other messy gray aspects to the fight. I seriously doubt there is a going to be a clear cut winner. The Facebook purchase makes me wonder as well. I am guessing that FB realizes the potential cost to Zeni, but feels they will gain more than whatever they have to pay Zeni.

    Since this isn't really a patent dispute it also makes me wonder Zeni hopes to get out of this. Sony and others have reproduced the technology without the aid of Zeni, Oculus, Carmack, or Luckey so it would seem logical that Oculus could prune any potentially infringing technology, if they haven't already, and divest themselves from any influence Zeni might have.

    I can possibly see a successful damage claim paid to Zeni like Samsung had to do with Apple, but it would surprise me if there is much more to it. It will be an interesting trial to follow.

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by Jeleena

    Very interesting articel on Gamasutra about this:

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/218260/5_points_to_help_you_better_understand_Zenimaxs_suit_against_Oculus.php

    That is a good breakdown of the situation.  I'd like to think it will mean people stop just assuming Zenimax is trolling the little guy with a lawsuit, but most people here don't seem to care about anything beyond their initial, emotional reaction.

    You make me like charity

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by Jeleena

    Very interesting articel on Gamasutra about this:

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/218260/5_points_to_help_you_better_understand_Zenimaxs_suit_against_Oculus.php

    That is a good breakdown of the situation.  I'd like to think it will mean people stop just assuming Zenimax is trolling the little guy with a lawsuit, but most people here don't seem to care about anything beyond their initial, emotional reaction.

    It is a pretty good article, but it only tells one half of the story which is unfortunate. It would have been much better to hear the contrasting claims and views from each side for the points. For example, they mention the equity stake, but fail to mention it was an non-dilutable equity stake and they leveraged that as their key to supporting development. The non-dilutable part is huge and holding that over them as leverage tool probably didn't sit well. They were trying to play a strong hand.

    How this plays out in court will be very interesting. Right now both sides can make claims without real scrutiny. That will all be ending soon.

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,116Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by Jeleena

    Very interesting articel on Gamasutra about this:

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/218260/5_points_to_help_you_better_understand_Zenimaxs_suit_against_Oculus.php

    That is a good breakdown of the situation.  I'd like to think it will mean people stop just assuming Zenimax is trolling the little guy with a lawsuit, but most people here don't seem to care about anything beyond their initial, emotional reaction.

    It's only a good break down if you take zenimaxs word at face value, you also have the other side of the coin where those being sued claim they didn't violate any terms. We can't really take either side at face value I think.

    Will be interesting to see how this goes, will facebook pay off zenimax, if not who will win and by what degree. How the courts interpret this thing will decide it I guess.

     

    I just hope this  doesn't stretch out too long and hurt VR in general.

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  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by Jeleena

    Very interesting articel on Gamasutra about this:

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/218260/5_points_to_help_you_better_understand_Zenimaxs_suit_against_Oculus.php

    That is a good breakdown of the situation.  I'd like to think it will mean people stop just assuming Zenimax is trolling the little guy with a lawsuit, but most people here don't seem to care about anything beyond their initial, emotional reaction.

    It's only a good break down if you take zenimaxs word at face value, you also have the other side of the coin where those being sued claim they didn't violate any terms. We can't really take either side at face value I think.

    Will be interesting to see how this goes, will facebook pay off zenimax, if not who will win and by what degree. How the courts interpret this thing will decide it I guess.

     

    I just hope this  doesn't stretch out too long and hurt VR in general.

    You're right.  But my point this whole time is that people are just assuming Zenimax is being a troll, and attacking the little guy.  You get people claiming random shit like "I'm unsubbing from ESO because of this" as if there is any connection.  And when you try and bring actual information to the argument, they just shrug it off and make some hyperbolic statement about how "ESO failed and now Zeni needs to make money."

    The misinformation is what I'm tired of seeing.

    Odds are, this won't even go to court, and if it does, it won't stay there long.  Facebook will settle with Zenimax for an undisclosed sum, and we'll never hear anything from it again, because the last thing Facebook wants is to risk having a jury reach some huge infringement fine and spend the next 2 to 5 years in appeals court.  They couldn't realistically release any kind of product until the matter is settled, and I doubt they bought OR with the intention of doing nothing for 5 years.

    So unless OR/Facebook has some very well-documented smoking gun type evidence that somehow invalidates the apparently very well-documented contracts, NDA's, and email communication that Zenimax has, we can expect to see this settled by the end of the year.

    But yeah, in the mean time, Facebook will of course deny everything Zenimax claims, because that's what you do when you are sued.  Nothing more.

    You make me like charity

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by Asm0deus
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by Jeleena

    Very interesting articel on Gamasutra about this:

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/218260/5_points_to_help_you_better_understand_Zenimaxs_suit_against_Oculus.php

    That is a good breakdown of the situation.  I'd like to think it will mean people stop just assuming Zenimax is trolling the little guy with a lawsuit, but most people here don't seem to care about anything beyond their initial, emotional reaction.

    It's only a good break down if you take zenimaxs word at face value, you also have the other side of the coin where those being sued claim they didn't violate any terms. We can't really take either side at face value I think.

    Will be interesting to see how this goes, will facebook pay off zenimax, if not who will win and by what degree. How the courts interpret this thing will decide it I guess.

     

    I just hope this  doesn't stretch out too long and hurt VR in general.

    You're right.  But my point this whole time is that people are just assuming Zenimax is being a troll, and attacking the little guy.  You get people claiming random shit like "I'm unsubbing from ESO because of this" as if there is any connection.  And when you try and bring actual information to the argument, they just shrug it off and make some hyperbolic statement about how "ESO failed and now Zeni needs to make money."

    The misinformation is what I'm tired of seeing.

    Odds are, this won't even go to court, and if it does, it won't stay there long.  Facebook will settle with Zenimax for an undisclosed sum, and we'll never hear anything from it again, because the last thing Facebook wants is to risk having a jury reach some huge infringement fine and spend the next 2 to 5 years in appeals court.  They couldn't realistically release any kind of product until the matter is settled, and I doubt they bought OR with the intention of doing nothing for 5 years.

    So unless OR/Facebook has some very well-documented smoking gun type evidence that somehow invalidates the apparently very well-documented contracts, NDA's, and email communication that Zenimax has, we can expect to see this settled by the end of the year.

    But yeah, in the mean time, Facebook will of course deny everything Zenimax claims, because that's what you do when you are sued.  Nothing more.

    For someone who is tired of misinformation you're making a whole lot of assumptions about Zenimax and their evidence. You're accepting and promoting that the story is how Zeni is telling it. We don't know that. That's what the court will decide.

    Do you really think this won't go to court after a lawsuit has just been filed? It would really surprise me. Pointing out again that this isn't a patent claim. Zenimax is filing suit and unless FB/Oculus files countersuit they have nothing to prove. It's up to Zenimax to prove that their claims are legitimate. It's up to Oculus to show them to be insubstantial, exaggerated, and/or false.

    Has a trial date been set?

  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by asmkm22
     

    You're right.  But my point this whole time is that people are just assuming Zenimax is being a troll, and attacking the little guy.  You get people claiming random shit like "I'm unsubbing from ESO because of this" as if there is any connection.  And when you try and bring actual information to the argument, they just shrug it off and make some hyperbolic statement about how "ESO failed and now Zeni needs to make money."

    The misinformation is what I'm tired of seeing.

    Odds are, this won't even go to court, and if it does, it won't stay there long.  Facebook will settle with Zenimax for an undisclosed sum, and we'll never hear anything from it again, because the last thing Facebook wants is to risk having a jury reach some huge infringement fine and spend the next 2 to 5 years in appeals court.  They couldn't realistically release any kind of product until the matter is settled, and I doubt they bought OR with the intention of doing nothing for 5 years.

    So unless OR/Facebook has some very well-documented smoking gun type evidence that somehow invalidates the apparently very well-documented contracts, NDA's, and email communication that Zenimax has, we can expect to see this settled by the end of the year.

    But yeah, in the mean time, Facebook will of course deny everything Zenimax claims, because that's what you do when you are sued.  Nothing more.

    For someone who is tired of misinformation you're making a whole lot of assumptions about Zenimax and their evidence. You're accepting and promoting that the story is how Zeni is telling it. We don't know that. That's what the court will decide.

    Do you really think this won't go to court after a lawsuit has just been filed? It would really surprise me. Pointing out again that this isn't a patent claim. Zenimax is filing suit and unless FB/Oculus files countersuit they have nothing to prove. It's up to Zenimax to prove that their claims are legitimate. It's up to Oculus to show them to be insubstantial, exaggerated, and/or false.

    Has a trial date been set?

    Can I take this to mean you have also been critical of people publicly defending Oculus Rift, on the basis of their official denial alone?  And if so, why do you think the general opinion of people in various comments and forums is that Zenimax is trolling?  Should they not also be more open-minded to finding out the truth, rather than simply condemning one side?

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