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More classes would have significantly improved this game

2

Comments

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,611Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    With the skill system they have, why would you NEED more classes? Each class is just a unique skill line among many skills lines and options. I wish more MMOs copied this idea.

    Although I agree with you, the popularity of build discussions in theorycrafting forums suggests that many people want some guidance on what combination of abilities work well and why they work well together. There are very few of us who knew exactly how we wanted to build our custom class before we started playing... and then the only reason we did is because we read those theorycrafting forums and watched videos of the build in action prior to release. 

     

    It can be argued that if you use a soft definition of "class" ESO actually already has many classes: there's the "melee sorcerer class" (a.k.a. the Reaver) in both, DPS and Tank variants and at least 20 other sorcerer variants...same goes for the other 4 archetype "classes". I recently saw a very clever vampire nightblade main healer build that works well.

     

    What the game lacks for some people - especially brand new players - is suggested build guides similar to what TSW has that, yes, "hold your hand" as you level your character and suggests what skill you should get next... Rift also has this.

     

    "Hand holding" is not the negative that many forum warrior poseurs say it is. It's just a user friendly way of taking new players where they want to go until they get the hang of the system and feel comfortable experimenting with variants on their own.

     

    My main guild has ~ 250 people in it. One of the main topics of discussion in guild chat is advice from fellow guild members on which morph to do, what weapon skill works best for situation "x", etc.

     

    Many soft "classes" already exist. It would be nice for new players to have easy access to those builds. 

     

     

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,611Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by rodingo
    They should have used the same amount of classes found in the Elder Scrolls IP.   None.  Let the players make their own classes like it has always been.   /shrug

    You mean twentysomething pre-made classes like in all games in the IP except for Skyrim?

     

    When did Skyrim become "the ES IP"?

    Ahh yes, the pre-defined classes from th ES IP. The ones that gave you bonuses to certain skills but didn't force you into using any of them.  You mean those classes?  Or how about the ability to custom make your own classes, did you include that in your "twenttysomething" as well?

    However, even using 20 some odd pre-defined classes that gave you bonuses to certain skill lines would have been better than the 4 classes that have locked skills.  I'm glad you reminded of their old class system. Thanks image

    Yup, sure did. But even that is a later addition to the IP that wasn't part of the original game, Arena. Anyone not trying to shoehorn Skyrim into being the IP-defining chapter of TES would know that.

  • NecroneusNecroneus CeutaPosts: 40Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by udon

    As a person who plays a support toon raiding in EQ2 and has tried most of the new MMO's released in the last 10 years my feeling is support classes have not been very popular with game developers for a long time now.  What people pass off these days as a support class isn't even close to what I think of and I would blame smaller group sizes.  With a 5 person and especially 4 person group size there just isn't room for a dedicated support class anymore so at best we get these hybrids where main roles can also flavor in some support here and there.  You see this in pretty much all the newer big MMO's although I have not dug into Wildstar deep enough to see if it's viable to have dedicated support classes or not.  By that I mean it both has to be possible to build a pure support class and it has to be desirable to fill that slot over a pure DPS class in groups.  Most of the time these days more DPS solves all problems with group makeup and even EQ2 has been headed that way for some time.

    I don't think ESO needs more classes but more skill lines wouldn't have hurt.  A support based skill line could add a lot of variety to ESO if done right but I imagine they would need to do something like make ability synergies with each other so that the more of the line you slot the more useful they become so everyone doesn't feel they have to take one ability off the skill line.

    Aion has good support classes. In fact, chanter and artist are brutal on PvP.

     

    I agree with a trinity class system. You can have what you want to be in a real set. Doesn't exist someone who can fight with a bow and then launch magma balls through the air.

  • summitussummitus TimbuktuPosts: 1,414Member

    Could I just be just a little impertinent , and pop in here and say , Its not more classes it needs , its the ability to use and combine more skills that it needs, having just 5 skills to choose from seemed ok at first, but soon becomes very boring spamming the same ones over and over, yes I know you can change them out but its still limiting. Just my 2 pennies worth.

     

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,451Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    With the skill system they have, why would you NEED more classes? Each class is just a unique skill line among many skills lines and options. I wish more MMOs copied this idea.

    Although I agree with you, the popularity of build discussions in theorycrafting forums suggests that many people want some guidance on what combination of abilities work well and why they work well together. There are very few of us who knew exactly how we wanted to build our custom class before we started playing... and then the only reason we did is because we read those theorycrafting forums and watched videos of the build in action prior to release. 

     

    It can be argued that if you use a soft definition of "class" ESO actually already has many classes: there's the "melee sorcerer class" (a.k.a. the Reaver) in both, DPS and Tank variants and at least 20 other sorcerer variants...same goes for the other 4 archetype "classes". I recently saw a very clever vampire nightblade main healer build that works well.

     

    What the game lacks for some people - especially brand new players - is suggested build guides similar to what TSW has that, yes, "hold your hand" as you level your character and suggests what skill you should get next... Rift also has this.

     

    "Hand holding" is not the negative that many forum warrior poseurs say it is. It's just a user friendly way of taking new players where they want to go until they get the hang of the system and feel comfortable experimenting with variants on their own.

     

    My main guild has ~ 250 people in it. One of the main topics of discussion in guild chat is advice from fellow guild members on which morph to do, what weapon skill works best for situation "x", etc.

     

    Many soft "classes" already exist. It would be nice for new players to have easy access to those builds. 

     

     

    Been MMOing for 15 years and the skill system seemed really easy to me. I forget sometimes how it can look through new eyes. Adding cookie cutter classes using their skill system should not be to hard. Does not even need to be a hard class system, even if they had a wizard that asked you, want ranged or meleee, hybrid or focused, AoE or ST and then gave you a few options on builds from there would work.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,611Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by summitus

    Could I just be just a little impertinent , and pop in here and say , Its not more classes it needs , its the ability to use and combine more skills that it needs, having just 5 skills to choose from seemed ok at first, but soon becomes very boring spamming the same ones over and over, yes I know you can change them out but its still limiting. Just my 2 pennies worth.

     

    IDK about you but the 12 I use on a regular basis, not counting quick, medium and strong attacks, blocks, interrupts and CC breakers is more than enough for my build... you do swap skill bars in fights don't you?

  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by rodingo
    They should have used the same amount of classes found in the Elder Scrolls IP.   None.  Let the players make their own classes like it has always been.   /shrug

    You mean twentysomething pre-made classes like in all games in the IP except for Skyrim?

     

    When did Skyrim become "the ES IP"?

    Ahh yes, the pre-defined classes from th ES IP. The ones that gave you bonuses to certain skills but didn't force you into using any of them.  You mean those classes?  Or how about the ability to custom make your own classes, did you include that in your "twenttysomething" as well?

    However, even using 20 some odd pre-defined classes that gave you bonuses to certain skill lines would have been better than the 4 classes that have locked skills.  I'm glad you reminded of their old class system. Thanks image

    Yup, sure did. But even that is a later addition to the IP that wasn't part of the original game, Arena. Anyone not trying to shoehorn Skyrim into being the IP-defining chapter of TES would know that.

    Something tells me you knew exactly what I meant by saying "no-classes", yet you bring up the pre-defined classes from their older systems in a way to prove me wrong I presume.  Yet those pre-defined classes have exactly the freedom I'm talking about.  Like I said, I think you knew this already.  However, you use that to insinuate that I assume the ES games are only represented by Skyrim? 

    Lets go ahead and make something clear.  Yes, I do think Skyrim is better than ESO.  Yes, I would also rather ESO resemble Skyrim in gameplay than it does now, which it doesn't resemble hardly any ES game other than shared lore.  I also think Morrowind and Oblivion are better as well.  Do those three game allow you full freedom to use any skill/spell in the game?  Yes.  Does ESO?  No.  That is what I'm talking about.

    If you think ESO represents and follows what the previous Elder Scrolls games previously have, then that's on you.  Something tells me most others don't.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,277Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rodingo
    They should have used the same amount of classes found in the Elder Scrolls IP.   None.  Let the players make their own classes like it has always been.   /shrug

    I think it's under selling ESO's skill system to look at them as just classes. I've played everything from a leather wearing 2 handed,sword wielding, freakish athlete to a staff using light armor wearing Disc Priest, all within one "class" Night Blade. 

     

     I wanted to see more skills per skill line. That being said, you know me, with a stupid amount of hours played, and 100k+ spent on respecs, I still feel there is more for me to learn about my "class".

     

    Would a completely classless system be better, maybe. The system in place is pretty darn good though.

  • summitussummitus TimbuktuPosts: 1,414Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by summitus

    Could I just be just a little impertinent , and pop in here and say , Its not more classes it needs , its the ability to use and combine more skills that it needs, having just 5 skills to choose from seemed ok at first, but soon becomes very boring spamming the same ones over and over, yes I know you can change them out but its still limiting. Just my 2 pennies worth.

     

    IDK about you but the 12 I use on a regular basis, not counting quick, medium and strong attacks, blocks, interrupts and CC breakers is more than enough for my build... you do swap skill bars in fights don't you?

    Yes , but I would rather just have them all available all the time without having to swap them.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,277Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by summitus
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by summitus

    Could I just be just a little impertinent , and pop in here and say , Its not more classes it needs , its the ability to use and combine more skills that it needs, having just 5 skills to choose from seemed ok at first, but soon becomes very boring spamming the same ones over and over, yes I know you can change them out but its still limiting. Just my 2 pennies worth.

     

    IDK about you but the 12 I use on a regular basis, not counting quick, medium and strong attacks, blocks, interrupts and CC breakers is more than enough for my build... you do swap skill bars in fights don't you?

    Yes , but I would rather just have them all available all the time without having to swap them.

    Same, even though I get "that's not this game". That's one of the things I loved about WoW. So many options, and so many ways to approach an encounter (pvp). In ESO after you die a couple times you put together a new approach.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,611Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by summitus
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by summitus

    Could I just be just a little impertinent , and pop in here and say , Its not more classes it needs , its the ability to use and combine more skills that it needs, having just 5 skills to choose from seemed ok at first, but soon becomes very boring spamming the same ones over and over, yes I know you can change them out but its still limiting. Just my 2 pennies worth.

     

    IDK about you but the 12 I use on a regular basis, not counting quick, medium and strong attacks, blocks, interrupts and CC breakers is more than enough for my build... you do swap skill bars in fights don't you?

    Yes , but I would rather just have them all available all the time without having to swap them.

    Yup, I agree. Having all 12 of them in one bar would be better... especially since the only ones that level up when you turn-in a quest are the ones on whichever bar is visible at the time. IDK how many times I've turned in a quest with the wrong bar showing. 

  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,767Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by summitus
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by summitus

    Could I just be just a little impertinent , and pop in here and say , Its not more classes it needs , its the ability to use and combine more skills that it needs, having just 5 skills to choose from seemed ok at first, but soon becomes very boring spamming the same ones over and over, yes I know you can change them out but its still limiting. Just my 2 pennies worth.

     

    IDK about you but the 12 I use on a regular basis, not counting quick, medium and strong attacks, blocks, interrupts and CC breakers is more than enough for my build... you do swap skill bars in fights don't you?

    Yes , but I would rather just have them all available all the time without having to swap them.

    Same, even though I get "that's not this game". That's one of the things I loved about WoW. So many options, and so many ways to approach an encounter (pvp). In ESO after you die a couple times you put together a new approach.

    In WoW you manage cool downs in ESO you manage resources and slots.  There is no preplanning in WoW other than creating a list of abilities from highest to lowest priority and making sure you keep the ones at the top of the list always on cool down.  ESO doesn't have cool downs it has resource management and having to pick and choose what is worth giving up a slot for and what isn't.

    Both methods work and there are pros and cons to each.  I have played the 50+ abilities on screen at once games for a long time and I find the smaller ability bars like ESO and TSW at least as challenging and enjoyable if for different reasons.  Large numbers of abilities is about understanding and prioritizing casting order where smaller ability bars with lots of backend choices is about planning before going into the fight on what matters the most to your build and role.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,611Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by rodingo
    They should have used the same amount of classes found in the Elder Scrolls IP.   None.  Let the players make their own classes like it has always been.   /shrug

    You mean twentysomething pre-made classes like in all games in the IP except for Skyrim?

     

    When did Skyrim become "the ES IP"?

    Ahh yes, the pre-defined classes from th ES IP. The ones that gave you bonuses to certain skills but didn't force you into using any of them.  You mean those classes?  Or how about the ability to custom make your own classes, did you include that in your "twenttysomething" as well?

    However, even using 20 some odd pre-defined classes that gave you bonuses to certain skill lines would have been better than the 4 classes that have locked skills.  I'm glad you reminded of their old class system. Thanks image

    Yup, sure did. But even that is a later addition to the IP that wasn't part of the original game, Arena. Anyone not trying to shoehorn Skyrim into being the IP-defining chapter of TES would know that.

    Something tells me you knew exactly what I meant by saying "no-classes", yet you bring up the pre-defined classes from their older systems in a way to prove me wrong I presume.  Yet those pre-defined classes have exactly the freedom I'm talking about.  Like I said, I think you knew this already.  However, you use that to insinuate that I assume the ES games are only represented by Skyrim? 

    Lets go ahead and make something clear.  Yes, I do think Skyrim is better than ESO.  Yes, I would also rather ESO resemble Skyrim in gameplay than it does now, which it doesn't resemble hardly any ES game other than shared lore.  I also think Morrowind and Oblivion are better as well.  Do those three game allow you full freedom to use any skill/spell in the game?  Yes.  Does ESO?  No.  That is what I'm talking about.

    If you think ESO represents and follows what the previous Elder Scrolls games previously have, then that's on you.  Something tells me most others don't.

    No actually I had no idea about the degree of your first hand knowledge about ES games. I have played them all at the time they were released which is why I don't go around making misleading statements about all of them having been totally classless like Skyrim.

     

    I mean... your OP is sitting there at the top of this quote... should I have read your mind and understood you meant something other than what you said?

  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by rodingo
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by rodingo
    They should have used the same amount of classes found in the Elder Scrolls IP.   None.  Let the players make their own classes like it has always been.   /shrug

    You mean twentysomething pre-made classes like in all games in the IP except for Skyrim?

     

    When did Skyrim become "the ES IP"?

    Ahh yes, the pre-defined classes from th ES IP. The ones that gave you bonuses to certain skills but didn't force you into using any of them.  You mean those classes?  Or how about the ability to custom make your own classes, did you include that in your "twenttysomething" as well?

    However, even using 20 some odd pre-defined classes that gave you bonuses to certain skill lines would have been better than the 4 classes that have locked skills.  I'm glad you reminded of their old class system. Thanks image

    Yup, sure did. But even that is a later addition to the IP that wasn't part of the original game, Arena. Anyone not trying to shoehorn Skyrim into being the IP-defining chapter of TES would know that.

    Something tells me you knew exactly what I meant by saying "no-classes", yet you bring up the pre-defined classes from their older systems in a way to prove me wrong I presume.  Yet those pre-defined classes have exactly the freedom I'm talking about.  Like I said, I think you knew this already.  However, you use that to insinuate that I assume the ES games are only represented by Skyrim? 

    Lets go ahead and make something clear.  Yes, I do think Skyrim is better than ESO.  Yes, I would also rather ESO resemble Skyrim in gameplay than it does now, which it doesn't resemble hardly any ES game other than shared lore.  I also think Morrowind and Oblivion are better as well.  Do those three game allow you full freedom to use any skill/spell in the game?  Yes.  Does ESO?  No.  That is what I'm talking about.

    If you think ESO represents and follows what the previous Elder Scrolls games previously have, then that's on you.  Something tells me most others don't.

    No actually I had no idea about the degree of your first hand knowledge about ES games. I have played them all at the time they were released which is why I don't go around making misleading statements about all of them having been totally classless like Skyrim.

     

    I mean... your OP is sitting there at the top of this quote... should I have read your mind and understood you meant something other than what you said?

    All you had to do was read the thread at least to the 2nd page, you know where you posted, to see what I was saying.  You didn't have to read my mind, just use a little context.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • WightyWighty Westbury, NYPosts: 664Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rodingo
    They should have used the same amount of classes found in the Elder Scrolls IP.   None.  Let the players make their own classes like it has always been.   /shrug

    While I wholeheartedly agree with you, the only issue I would see in doing this is EVERYONE would spec pretty much the same FOTM spec.

    Doing it this way you can still vastly spec how you want with the exception of committing to 3 skill lines.

     

    As they add more skill lines, (thieves guild, dark brohood) it will further dilute the "class" system.

     

    It's about as sandboxy as a theme park character system will be.

    What are your other Hobbies?

    Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...

  • GravargGravarg Harker Heights, TXPosts: 3,332Member Uncommon
    I wish they would've done leveling and classes like in Skyrim, but it's not bad how it is.
  • CouganCougan DoncasterPosts: 394Member

    I wouldnt mind the ability to unlock skill lines from other classes in the future if it was something hard to do, maybe one at a time. That could be interesting - picking say a Sorceror tree on my Nightblade.

     

    You're hardly forced to use class skill sets. You could be a Sorceror in medium armour with a two handed axe and all Fighters Guild/ 2h skills and not be any worse off for DPS then any other class using the same skills. Most passives are beneficial from having relevant skills slotted.

     

    Someone with bow skills slotted and one or two extra utility spells is more reasonably called an Archer than anything else. You can make your own class. Vampire, Werewolf, Assassin I can think of quite a few. Your choices define your class more than some starting template of 3 trees especially with future Guild lines to take as well. 

     

    People might not like that three trees are a exclusive choice at the start but thats just what they have gone with. I found the class system gives a ease of play to new players without feeling overwhelming.

     

     

     

     

  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully
     

    Would a completely classless system be better, maybe. The system in place is pretty darn good though.

    How would you feel about Wushu if you could only pick certain schools' abilities?  Or heck if even you were limited to only your initial school's abilities?  It would have been a different game wouldn't it?  Not sure if you previously played any of the other Elder Scrolls games, but imagine being used to playing AoW then when they make an AoW2 and they take away ALL freedom of skill choice and limit it to 4 classes.  I'm sure you would be like "WTF"? Sure you might be able to make some interesting combos with armor and weapons in ESO, but you are still missing out on the 90 other "class" abilities and passives from the other 3 classes you didn't choose.  Imagine if you had access to all of those.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • GolelornGolelorn Hiding From Social Media Peeping Toms, ALPosts: 1,099Member Uncommon
    No. Creating a multiplayer experience would have improved the game. Not more classes to experience the solo content.
  • RosenthorneRosenthorne AdelaidePosts: 93Member Uncommon

    Instead of more classes, I would say more skill lines.

    I would do this by introducing more guilds, each with their own quest lines.

    eg, bards guild, thief's guild, healers guild, etc. I would envision this as being something to introduce at a veteran lvl to allow them to gain more depth to their build.

    image
  • redbug1redbug1 gainesville, FLPosts: 21Member
    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by rodingo
    They should have used the same amount of classes found in the Elder Scrolls IP.   None.  Let the players make their own classes like it has always been.   /shrug

    The problem there is that everyone would eventually be the best melee fighter, best thief, best mage or best archer.

    Then everyone will have the same skills. Not very intriguing.

    I would have preferred a system where you can choose from everything but would have to make hard choices about which skills can advance to the higher levels.

     

    Like WoW or pretty much every MMO since EQ ? Pretty much all MMO's are the same way. People look up builds and copy them. It's been that way for a very long time.

  • DeddmeatDeddmeat StanwellPosts: 358Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Sovrath
    Originally posted by rodingo They should have used the same amount of classes found in the Elder Scrolls IP.   None.  Let the players make their own classes like it has always been.   /shrug
    The problem there is that everyone would eventually be the best melee fighter, best thief, best mage or best archer.

    Then everyone will have the same skills. Not very intriguing.

    I would have preferred a system where you can choose from everything but would have to make hard choices about which skills can advance to the higher levels.

     


    Something like .. If you take a certain skill, say Killers Blades, it locks the choice of x from x

    So you can pick from them all but with each choice, another skill is locked from use. ?

    image

  • yaminsuxyaminsux KajangPosts: 812Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gravarg
    I wish they would've done leveling and classes like in Skyrim, but it's not bad how it is.

    I too wished for this....until I saw skyrim icon on my desktop, 2x clicked it. And behold! I have skyrim leveling and classes....

  • SlyLoKSlyLoK Sugar Grove, VAPosts: 1,547Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rodingo
    They should have used the same amount of classes found in the Elder Scrolls IP.   None.  Let the players make their own classes like it has always been.   /shrug

    Except Skyrim is the only one that did not have classes and thats because Skyrim was streamlined x1000 but it was still a good game... Oblivion and Morrowind both did. What were you saying again? 

    image

  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SlyLoK
    Originally posted by rodingo
    They should have used the same amount of classes found in the Elder Scrolls IP.   None.  Let the players make their own classes like it has always been.   /shrug

    Except Skyrim is the only one that did not have classes and thats because Skyrim was streamlined x1000 but it was still a good game... Oblivion and Morrowind both did. What were you saying again? 

    You are right, Morrowind and Oblivion had classes but they were not set up like ESO classes.  Those classes just determined your starting stats and which determined how leveling worked.  No skills were locked into classes.  You also had the choice to make your own "class" which basically allowed you to choose your own main and secondary stats which is what I always did along with using whichever skill/spell I felt like.  ESO classes are not even remotely similar to that.  That is what I was going for.  I should have said just said, "Lose the ESO classes which have nothing to do with the other Elder Scrolls games and just have a customization class which WAS in the older games" .  It was my fault for assuming those that played the previous games would understand what I meant.  Look, Morrowind and Oblivion were basically classless systems when compared to most current conventions except in name.  You understand what I'm saying, right? 

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

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