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MMOs should skip the leveling and start at end game

24

Comments

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon

    By my personal definitions and standards:

    MMOs (ESO, Wildstar, WoW, Rift, TERA, etc.) might as well drop it and be ok.

    MMORPGs (L2, Wurm Online, etc.) need leveling process in order to be actual RPGs.

    For me, RPG is about progression. (When I say progression, I mean years of progression, not days or weeks)

    I repeat...by my personal definitions and standards.

     

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,942Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Novusod
    Originally posted by holyneo
    No, have you tried raiding in WoW that had a instant level 90?  They sucked...because they didn't put the time into the class to master it.

    You act like leveling up teaches people how to play their class. Reality check It doesn't. All those fetch quests, and kill 10 XYZ critters doesn't teach players the critical rolls of their class. Even the story quests with puzzles don't teach people how to play. New players don't really learn anything until they get level capped and start participating in party play and raids.

     

    Leveling for the most part is pointless other than as a time sink.

    Its funny, questing was never about learning the class, it was the journey.  then we had the rush to end game, and suddenly questing is about 'learnnig the class'  and we wonder why modern players dont read 'text'  Levelling is part of the genre - play lobby games if you dont like a journey, because thats what you are describing.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTPosts: 2,837Member Uncommon
    It depends if it's a MMO or if it's a MMORPG.  I don't think MMOs have been RPGs for a while now so the level/journey doesn't really matter IMO.  If the games were more RPG they wouldn't have characters with Exclamation marks, GPS, quick leveling, no death penalty, limited amounts of strategy, fairly generic stories, etc. 
  • GadarethGadareth Westcliff-on-SeaPosts: 313Member
    Originally posted by aattss
    Originally posted by Gadareth

    Atcually been thinking about this what we need is a new Genre descriptor :-

    MMORPG : The classic mmo with role playing elements questing steep leveling cure the game is about the journey

    FPS : state of the art bang bang

    MMO-E-Sport : Kill or be killed gotta beat em all everyone equal no leveling just jump in and you have it all. Getting to the end and being ranked the highest is all that matters.

    In this case could we make them their own forum to stop them polluting our mmorpg pool ?

     

     

    Don't forget Sandbox MMOs (once we actually find a descriptor for those)

    Not really Sandbox and Themepark are legitimate elements of a MMORPG. A good MMORPG should incorporate a mix of both. The player needs both freedom and purpose. A Open World gives you that freedom and Themed events and dungeons gives that purpose. Same with quests a Open World quest which is vast and non hand holding is a good mix of open world freedom combined with a themed essence (best shown in the EQ quests where you could find an item and then years later encounter a NPC who wanted it).

     

     

     

  • Threatlevel0Threatlevel0 Elizabethtown, KYPosts: 165Member

    From my perspective leveling forces the whole "end-game" trend in MMORPGS.  

     

    Instead of an immersive MMORPG where developers create worlds for us to play in, they must dictate zones/areas for each level, that we never see again unless reused in some instance/scenario as end-game grind.  

     

    All these post above mine, following the OP, seem to suggest that is what MMORPG's should be or simply are.   I don't agree with that at all.   Honestly, levels add nothing to the games that would strip anything else out, there's still progression of gear/skill possible, story, everything that everyone seems to think goes away without leveling.   

     

    I look at almost every MMO I play and think, "Damn they spent all this time hand-crafting this zone, city, buidlings, enemies...shame I'll never see them again after I hit level 15."   

     

    I believe if I were to lay the base design, core principles, of my own MMORPG it would revolve around the idea of creating content that wouldn't just be out-leveled and forgotten.

    No levels, no level-based zones, but give players ability to create, harvest/farm, craft, build bases/forts, PvP, so as no area is simply out-leveled, or any building/structure unused besides simply visited once for a POI/Badge.

    No companions that are simply forgotten and unused at "end-game."    No MMO "fourth-pillar" that crumbles as soon as you hit max level and realize all these companions you shared stories with, customized, geared out, can't do the "end-game" dungeons with you but that you must find/queue other players.   If I dedicated that much time to them, and their gear, you better damn let me and friend run a 5 man dungeon using 3 of them!  
     
    No phasing that separates me from grouping/questing with my friends!  If there's any phasing at all it'd be to PvP/PvE phasing to allow for open world PvP but not seeing non-flagged players, etc. 
     
    Basically, unlimited options!   No "this pet is great level 1-10, but no option to use at level 50."    All the design's and such that go to waste on levels.    Smh...
     
    I don't understand you people.... it's seems such a small-minded way of thinking.
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quizzical
    Originally posted by plasticface

    Would it not make more sense to start with content everyone wants and enjoys. 

    That's pretty much what they do, at least immediately after a quick tutorial to introduce you to the game.  They put the endgame stuff that nearly everyone hates all the way at the very end.

    This is my feeling.

    Why would I want to repeat dungeons over and over again? once or twice is enough.

  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Posts: 1,536Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gadareth

    To be honest it would make more sense to return to the old format of the leveling curve being designed to take a long time. Do away with the END GAME concept altogether. The so called END GAME should just be a placeholder in place to keep people entertained until more content is made available.

    If you want instant gratification and no actual mmorpg mechanics ======> FPS is that way.

    What the MMORPG genre needs is less focus on the END GAME and more focus on the game itself.

     

    Yep.

    What they should be doing is making these games to be long-term hobbies again. They should be long, epic journeys where the "end" is some nebulous thing that's "out there", but far away and... who really cares about that because there's so much to be done on the way there?

    The problem is, MMOs have been so watered down in the past years, have been made so casual, and so geared toward frequent reward/gratification, fast progression, convenience and "accessibility, that any sense of there being a journey that your character grows throughout has been completely lost.

    I can't entirely blame the people who just want to skip to the end-game for feeling that way... because the leveling process has become crap for the most part. But the solution is not to do away with the leveling process, but to make it matter again.

    When you consider that players can race past/through 80-90% of what a typical MMO offers these days in a few weeks, and then spend the next weeks/months grinding through the last 10-20% of it (the "end game") ... there's something very wrong there.

    For example.. I played FFXI for about 7.5 years. It took me 2 years to get my first job to 75 (when 75 was the cap). It took me that long because, A) the game was much slower-paced, had much more for you to do along the way and B) I was having a ball doing other stuff, and was never in a hurry to get to the end. I knew what was there, I knew what end-gamers were doing, and it sounded fun. But then, all the other option the game gave me were fun as well. Spending time helping others achieve their goals in-game was enjoyable. Just logging in and playing the game... doing 'whatever' was enjoyable. So, getting to level cap/end game wasn't a priority for me. And when I got to end game, I found that it was "neat", but not something I wanted to spend all my time doing. So I went and leveled up other jobs, did other things, continued helping others, etc. That was my "life" in FFXI for years... and I never got bored of it.

    I didn't lose interest in FFXI until SE started changing the game up too drastically with Abyssea, attempting to hop on the "casual-friendly, faster leveling" bandwagon and utterly gutted the MMO I'd played and loved all those years. That's when I left. Though I've tried to go back and adapt to the "new FFXI", I couldn't. Too much has changed.

    Same thing goes for other older MMOs.. Talk to many in Anarchy Online. They'll tell you they've been there since the game launched, are still there to this day, still have plenty to keep them entertained and have no interest in leaving. Same with EQ1, same with AC1, same with DAoC, and so on.

    The games were just designed differently back then. They were created as long-term hobbies, not short-term "race to the end game, grind 'til you're bored and then move on to the next MMO to repeat the process" .They were created as games that could keep people entertained for years... and the process of leveling up was a major part of that.

    So, again... the problem isn't that there's leveling required before getting to end-game. It's that the leveling portion of the game - that 80-90% of the content - has been so gutted,, streamlined and watered down, that it holds no interest and people just want to get it the hell over with.

    If some developer with an understanding of that could recapture that sense of grand adventure that older MMOs were built around and apply it to a modern MMO, I think we could well see a return to that, and people would stop feeling that "leveling is boring and should be eliminated".

    Of course, that would require a change in the mentalities of many players, too... and that's a whole other challenge. People don't tend to like change.

     

     

  • XarishXarish Ocala, FLPosts: 9Member

    I can agree with the spirit of taking away the concept of "leveling" vs. "end game" in many ways. As an example (ignore all concepts from these games that are not directly in the threads context please)  when you look at EverQuest or Vanguard, leveling took a great deal of time. So much so that you spent many many hours inside most dungeons in the game during your leveling process. It did not feel like you were wasting time to run these dungeons with multiple groups, taking part in all the content was worth it.

    Exploring these dungeons, gathering the rare items from them, and/or completing quest chains took you to every corner of the game even though there was a "golden path" (old gamer term for the places to go for fastest xp per level range) The entire game once out of the tutorial area was pretty close to end game except for multigroup encounters such as raids.

    I really wish that spirit could return in modern mmos. Slow things down, strap weights to our ankles that are so heavy trying to race to max level would pointless, and only players who have achieved absolutely nothing in real life, whos mom loved them to much, and whos dad did not love them enough, will try to skip over content as its intended for the sake of leveling as fast as possible just so they can scream on the forums look at me, i was first to max level, now i have nothing to do but sit alone in a dark basement doing tradeskills while everyone else who is having a ton of fun catches up.

    I have been playing mmos for 15 years, and im not going to say that makes me special or that I know anything at all because of it, but I have leveled enough times in enough games that I am sick of it. Not because I want emediate gratification, or that I dont want to work for things and earn them. I am very old school I honestly believe that the harder I work for something the more it means to me, but I am sick of leveling in games where leveling is simply click npc, kill 5 rats, hand in, get a new ability, and then kill 40 rats to make sure I understand that ability before the game gives me another new ability.  If the leveling experience is so shallow and all it is there for is to train me my abilities I would rather not play anymore. 

    No I dont want to just walk up to people and hand them a sherriffs badge or nursing license without any training just because that is what they wanted to do lol. I want the social and meaningful aspects of oldschool games where you actually had to learn your character at lower levels and perform your roll well even at lower to mid levels.

    But im probably alone in this....

  • aattssaattss Hello, GAPosts: 40Member

    I always wanted a sandbox in which competition over resources and discovery were prioritized over grinding, and they all contributed to leveling. In other words, protecting a city from bandits wouldn't decrease the rate of leveling significantly, but it would allow you to have an effect on the world which is favorable for you. A player who searched ruins and found an epic sword but was only level 8 would be better off than the player who grinded to level 10 in that time.

    And as I've said before, getting rid of the "trinity"  by using AI to make encounters more unpredictable, require adaption to new situations, and render a wider range of tactics applicable may make these games less repetitive.

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,942Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    It depends if it's a MMO or if it's a MMORPG.  I don't think MMOs have been RPGs for a while now so the level/journey doesn't really matter IMO.  If the games were more RPG they wouldn't have characters with Exclamation marks, GPS, quick leveling, no death penalty, limited amounts of strategy, fairly generic stories, etc. 

    Totally agree, actually misread Thread title, if this is about mmo then thats fine.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • CrusadesCrusades Columbus, OHPosts: 480Member
    I agree - the problem with it all is that leveling is a single player experience and then endgame is group content - so you grind out your levels and the game does a 180 once you reach level cap - it's stupid
  • holyneoholyneo Georgetown, INPosts: 126Member
    yawn
  • holyneoholyneo Georgetown, INPosts: 126Member
    Originally posted by Novusod
    Originally posted by holyneo
    No, have you tried raiding in WoW that had a instant level 90?  They sucked...because they didn't put the time into the class to master it.

    You act like leveling up teaches people how to play their class. Reality check It doesn't. All those fetch quests, and kill 10 XYZ critters doesn't teach players the critical rolls of their class. Even the story quests with puzzles don't teach people how to play. New players don't really learn anything until they get level capped and start participating in party play and raids.

     

    Leveling for the most part is pointless other than as a time sink.

    You sir are wrong!!!  When a player gets a instant level 90 they do not know there skill functions.  When you level a character every so level you get new skills.  As you continue to level you are practicing using these skills as you kill 10 rats etc.  As you level the npc's and enviroments that challenges you gets harder and harder.  When a player gets an instant 90 warrior and you wipe over and over,  because he doesn't know which button is the taunt... then you will see my point.  Mmo's are not for you kiddo!! go play LoL.

  • TbauTbau Chicago, ILPosts: 401Member
    Originally posted by plasticface

    Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?

    And every game update and expansion makes current end game useless in the end...so why not just quit the game before even playing in the first place!

  • aattssaattss Hello, GAPosts: 40Member
    I've always wanted to point out how if tons of people are spending lots of time grinding, then one can argue that the game successfully implements grinding. That's why MMORPGs with grinding still have grinding. It's like sort of like how some people argue that fast food is unhealthy, but fast-food isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
  • MiviMivi RomePosts: 80Member Uncommon

    lazy op should play moba =_=

  • jigo86jigo86 adsfesPosts: 53Member Uncommon
    mmos shouls start placing the "end game" right into the middel or even the start no eq lvl xx anymore so u have to max ur charr first see it as part of the game to finish the last 20 lvls by having fun and earning some sweet eq 
  • g0m0rrahg0m0rrah indianapolis, INPosts: 269Member
    Originally posted by Mivi

    lazy op should play moba =_=

      Lazy has nothing to do with it.  For example, I played guild wars a lot and my favorite feature was to create a max level character strictly for PvP.  I would have hours of fun creating and testing new builds.

      The problem is that " fun ' is subjective.  The more types of " fun ' that you cater to the more people will play.  I know that there are specific types of fun that are opposed to each other.  PvP and PvP can be a good example of opposing methods of play.  Some people just do not like PvP and thats why PvP servers exist.

      Now to your post.  It takes a special kind of person to inhibit others in their search for entertainment simply because you do not find it fun.

  • CouganCougan DoncasterPosts: 394Member

    I feel like MMOs have always been missing one major thing as an RPG fan - memorable characters.

     

    People can replay single player RPGs because they love the story, characters and amazing scenes that make your jaw drop. If they could get that right in a MMO the path to the endgame would be hell of a lot more fun for me and something I might want to repeat.

     

    Never seen this done right in a MMO. Give me reoccuring characters whose names I actually remember, with some badass scenes to watch or at least something not so generic.

     

     

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,942Member Uncommon
    The problem here is that people are referring to mmo, but you can't apply a set of base rules to a mmo - mmo nearly describes the number of players. What we do have are mobos, mmorpg, fps mmo, and lobby base mmo - and it is the last that describes a game that really needs no questing or levelling xp. Questing is part of the RPG world.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • SomeOldBlokeSomeOldBloke Lancaster, UKPosts: 2,141Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by plasticface

    Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?

    No, end game is boring - it's the same old grind (dungeon or pvp) to get shinny new gear, then there's an update that gives you 'better' shinny new gear then an expansion and your shinny old gear is worthless and you start again.

    It should be about the journey and not about levels. It should be about progressing and developing your character and not about shinny new gear.

  • MavolenceMavolence Appleton, WIPosts: 612Member Uncommon
    OP, i really understand where you're coming from but I prefer an entirely different approach. For one i really truly enjoy the journey not the destination and the entire idea of  "endgame" is the problem to begin with in my pesonal preferred playstyle with mmorpgs. I'd rather have not be spoon fed linear scripted released content in increments like a starved child waiting for the next taste. I don't want  "endgame" at all. I enjoy levling,working my characters and progression and prefer horizontal progression as much as vertical progression to keep it intresting or the ability to swap abilities and skills and use  different armor/weapons rather than re roll new characters and level them in a linear quest hub. This is why i do prefer the sandbox titles like EVE/SWG/UO(and why i still play all 3 to this day over all these new titles) over a game like Wildstar in your post.
  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,942Member Uncommon
    Mmorg with no Silly learner quests and a huge levelling process in a massive world with a great story and end game - sounds amazing to me.

    Mmo (note not rpg). Focused on creating amazing group gameplay and quick access with a great reward system, questing is not part of it.

    Both sound good as seperate games.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • RaysheRayshe London, ONPosts: 1,284Member

    Doing this would turn the MMO into a Lobby game. Think about it. If all there is to do is end game content, all your doing is running the same things over again in raids of people. The only difference is that you can run around i the lobby before joining a Raid or PVP match.

     

    TL:DR Bad Idea.

    Because i can.
    I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
    Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by plasticface

    Anyone else tired of pointless leveling grind in MMOs that offers nothing useful in the end?

    ***snip for length***

    Personally I agree.

    I'd like to see MMOs do away with levels, or adopt a progression system more similar to GW1. A very brief lvl up period, which constitutes the tutorial. Instead of having the game focused around it.

    However, I know that most players wouldn't agree. The majority of us, whether we want to admit it or not, are stuck in our ways. We are used to, and hooked on the current skinner-box status quo. This is based off of levels, and RNG. Baiting people into chasing more and more rewards. It simulates the feeling of fun, and people love it for that. As a result, it's going to be a while before we see a meaningful departure from that type of design. It's just too engrained in human nature.

    One can still hope, though, I suppose.

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